Nobody, and I do mean NOBODY can misinterpret the world of Conan this bad by accident. This is all part of the Baizuo invasion of our hobbies.
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To see the image in all it's glory https://twitter.com/GeekyBugle01/status/1140494349890936832 (https://twitter.com/GeekyBugle01/status/1140494349890936832)
Paizo is trying really, really hard to convince their enemies that they should like Paizo.
"Pretty, pretty please!!!"
Edit* I thought Baizuo was an offhand reference to Paizo? Sorry for the confusion.
Quote from: Razor 007;1092361Paizo is trying really, really hard to convince their enemies that they should like Paizo.
"Pretty, pretty please!!!"
That's from Paizo? I thought it was for Savage Worlds
I'm just talking about Paizo's stance, ala the Pathfinder Playtest.
Edit* I thought Baizuo was an offhand reference to Paizo? Sorry for the confusion.
Quote from: Razor 007;1092363I'm just talking about Paizo's stance, ala the Pathfinder Playtest.
Oh! Sorry, my bad. I probably should go to sleep. Also I think that's for a PbtA game. (playbooks duh!)
I've maxed out the amount of full retard I can mock in one day.
Thus, if anyone would like to play "Africa inspired Fantasy RPG" instead of self-flagellating over the naughty thoughts of a seminal author dead almost a century, I highly suggest checking out Sine Nomine's SPEARS OF THE DAWN. It's OSR, it's fantasy Africa, it's awesome. There is NO reason to play the game with one hand in your pants virtue signalling how woke you are to play a "black guy", but nobody can stop you either. Thus, its a great game for actual humans and SJW freaks.
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/110293/Spears-of-the-Dawn
I dont get it, what is the problem?
I literally don't know what this thread is on about.
Wft is Baizuo?
Where the fuck is that image supposed to be from?
Wtf is the actual problem with it?
Wtf is with all this cryptic bullshit lately?
Baizuo is how some Chinese people online derisively refer to Western liberals. It means "white left" and "laugh at the silly dickheads"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baizuo
The image is from the World of Conan PDF. It's free, it's online via Google search and its a homebrew PbtA game. I saw no evidence the PDF was part of a professional work for publication, but who knows about next week's Kickstarters.
The problem is the author's rather skewed modern culture war take on REH's work. Depending on how you feel about REH and Conan, you may or may not consider this a problem. Conan fans aren't keen on people shitting on REH's work, especially by virtue signalling through intentional misinterpretations of the Conan canon.
As for me, I know this by Crom! REH's original Conan stories will be read, reread and thoroughly enjoyed by people long after all the SJWs are rotting in their graves, forgotten forever and missed by none.
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1092358Nobody, and I do mean NOBODY can misinterpret the world of Conan this bad by accident. This is all part of the Baizuo invasion of our hobbies.
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To see the image in all it's glory https://twitter.com/GeekyBugle01/status/1140494349890936832 (https://twitter.com/GeekyBugle01/status/1140494349890936832)
Would it be that hard to actually include a barely readable image, or did you think you might miss a few clicks on your precious Twitter feed?
And apparently what's got you outraged is the last couple sentences. Couldn't you quote that sentence or two, instead of forcing us to read through all kinds of unrelated shit while trying to figure out exactly what's got you upset?
If you want to be a professional outragist, at least make it easy for us to know what's got your chainmail bikini in a bunch.
I almost always play a black guy - does that make me woke?
Or not because I am in actual fact, not white?
Quote from: Spinachcat;1092369Baizuo is how some Chinese people online derisively refer to Western liberals. It means "white left" and "laugh at the silly dickheads"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baizuo
The image is from the World of Conan PDF. It's free, it's online via Google search and its a homebrew PbtA game. I saw no evidence the PDF was part of a professional work for publication, but who knows about next week's Kickstarters.
The problem is the author's rather skewed modern culture war take on REH's work. Depending on how you feel about REH and Conan, you may or may not consider this a problem. Conan fans aren't keen on people shitting on REH's work, especially by virtue signalling through intentional misinterpretations of the Conan canon.
As for me, I know this by Crom! REH's original Conan stories will be read, reread and thoroughly enjoyed by people long after all the SJWs are rotting in their graves, forgotten forever and missed by none.
Thanks Spinachcat.
OK, so now I have had a chance to read the whole thing, again I have to ask what is the problem? I dont see any evidence of the culture war here.
Quote from: Kiero;1092372I almost always play a black guy - does that make me woke?
Not if you played black guys before 2016. History is now recorded in years BT (Before Trump) and AT (After Trump).
Quote from: Kiero;1092372Or not because I am in actual fact, not white?
Only if you promise to live in perpetual victimhood. Otherwise you make the baizuo sad.
However, I highly recommend SPEARS AT DAWN for everyone who likes OSR games, regardless of your woke/not woke status or your white/not white skin. Kevin Crawford did a great job creating a very workable sandbox setting combining African myths and D&D tropes.
Quote from: Shasarak;1092374OK, so now I have had a chance to read the whole thing, again I have to ask what is the problem?
The author frames REH's concept of Civilization vs. Barbarism as Whiteness vs. Blackness.
It's been a common "woke" attack on REH and doesn't map to Conan's canon. I've seen the same accusations for years, but its gotten more rabid.
Again, its only a problem for REH/Conan fans who are sick of the nonsense because its a quick hop from "REH was racist" to "Anyone who enjoys Conan is racist".
AKA, the similar culture war nonsense we see with HPL, who is another author who will be beloved by readers long after the SJWs are dust.
EDIT:: This PDF doesn't represent a "big" problem because its not a published RPG, like CoC shitting on HPL while profiting off his work. We may be the only people who have actually read this PDF for all I know.
Quote from: Pat;1092370Would it be that hard to actually include a barely readable image, or did you think you might miss a few clicks on your precious Twitter feed?
And apparently what's got you outraged is the last couple sentences. Couldn't you quote that sentence or two, instead of forcing us to read through all kinds of unrelated shit while trying to figure out exactly what's got you upset?
If you want to be a professional outragist, at least make it easy for us to know what's got your chainmail bikini in a bunch.
Click on the twitter link, and click on the image there. It's pretty readable, as I am half blind and I can read it. It's very obviously the part that says
RACE.
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1092358Nobody, and I do mean NOBODY can misinterpret the world of Conan this bad by accident. This is all part of the Baizuo invasion of our hobbies.
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To see the image in all it's glory https://twitter.com/GeekyBugle01/status/1140494349890936832 (https://twitter.com/GeekyBugle01/status/1140494349890936832)
OK, so they got Howard's view pretty much exactly back to front - they think Howard = White = Good = Civilisation, which is pretty much the exact opposite of his view. In REH the dusky Stygians and Zamorans are Civilised = Decadent = Bad, and Civilisation is corrupting the white Hyboreans, while the white Cimmerians are still Savage = Good. The non-white Picts will one day conquer everything due to their resolute savagery and refusal to embrace corrupting Civilisation.
I think maybe the Baizuo can't get their head around REH's anti-civilisation theme. Which is ironic as its modern incarnation derives from Rousseau (though it goes back at least as far as Tacitus) and in the "Oh poor virtuous natives" version is a left-wing trope.
Quote from: pdboddy;1092378Click on the twitter link, and click on the image there. It's pretty readable, as I am half blind and I can read it. It's very obviously the part that says RACE.
Re-read my post. I stated I found it, and where, in more detail than you just did. Note that the OP never mentioned "race" or even gave a hint about what topic it was that caused the contentless outrage.
Quote from: S'mon;1092379OK, so they got Howard's view pretty much exactly back to front - they think Howard = White = Good = Civilisation, which is pretty much the exact opposite of his view. In REH the dusky Stygians and Zamorans are Civilised = Decadent = Bad, and Civilisation is corrupting the white Hyboreans, while the white Cimmerians are still Savage = Good. The non-white Picts will one day conquer everything due to their resolute savagery and refusal to embrace corrupting Civilisation.
Agree. You can look at it through a racial lens, since REH's protagonist and the kingdom he eventually led were white... but that's more writing about what you know or what's familiar than anything else. Nobody expects someone from Kenya to write a story about a someone of Scandinavian descent in Chicago, or to draw from the urban legends of the Pacific NW, after all. Fantasy is escapism is self-insertion. Though it's a lot more cultural than racial, because it goes back to the cultures that REH was exposed to, interested in, and even idolized.
It's curious the excerpt follows the very inaccurate statement about the correlation between skin color and civilization/savagery with this: "Howard gives us one answer these questions." (About the natural state of humanity.) That that's a contentless assertion, because it doesn't lay out what answer REH gives. But it says a lot by implication, because it not only inserts the loaded and false statement about black/white in between the question being raised and the non-answer, but it follows the answerless answer by suggesting the GM should find a different one, implying Howard's was wrong. So aside from that one easily disproven assertion, it's all innuendo and juxtapositions, and nothing direct.
Keep in mind that it may also be a rather sad attempt at outrage advertising. But more likely its another little SJW screed in an otherwise probably pretty by the numbers book.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1092369Baizuo is how some Chinese people online derisively refer to Western liberals. It means "white left" and "laugh at the silly dickheads"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baizuo.
Even China ridicules SJWs?! The rest of the world is going to punk us when the soyboys and dangerhairs are in charge.
Quote from: S'mon;1092379OK, so they got Howard's view pretty much exactly back to front - they think Howard = White = Good = Civilisation, which is pretty much the exact opposite of his view. In REH the dusky Stygians and Zamorans are Civilised = Decadent = Bad, and Civilisation is corrupting the white Hyboreans, while the white Cimmerians are still Savage = Good. The non-white Picts will one day conquer everything due to their resolute savagery and refusal to embrace corrupting Civilisation.
I think maybe the Baizuo can't get their head around REH's anti-civilisation theme. Which is ironic as its modern incarnation derives from Rousseau (though it goes back at least as far as Tacitus) and in the "Oh poor virtuous natives" version is a left-wing trope.
You could tell interesting stories by confronting REH's anti-civilization theme. Much as how some neo-Lovecraft writers directly confront Lovecraft's racism by, among other things, depicting the deep ones and the Whateley children as the heroes/victims of the story.
The Sinking City game coming out this year or so aims to depict a racially-charged blood feud between the Jermyns and the Marshes.
I wish it mentioned why Stygia is unsullied by invasion. It's because everyone is fucking terrified of them.
Wow. They totally missed what REH was all about from his writings. He truly believed that barbarism was the natural state of man and civilization was the corrupting factor.
It's quite obvious to me that none of them there at Paizo has read one of REH's Conan stories or the various essays about REH and the world he created.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1092390You could tell interesting stories by confronting REH's anti-civilization theme. Much as how some neo-Lovecraft writers directly confront Lovecraft's racism by, among other things, depicting the deep ones and the Whateley children as the heroes/victims of the story. The Sinking City game coming out this year or so aims to depict a racially-charged blood feud between the Jermyns and the Marshes.
There is actually enough depth and nuance in REH's writings to address a wide variety of themes. But it does not support either simplistic pre-WW2 racism or simplistic modern "anti" racism. "Barbarism will always triumph" is a fairly gloomy view albeit with plenty of historical antecedent.
Quote from: Pat;1092370Would it be that hard to actually include a barely readable image, or did you think you might miss a few clicks on your precious Twitter feed?
And apparently what's got you outraged is the last couple sentences. Couldn't you quote that sentence or two, instead of forcing us to read through all kinds of unrelated shit while trying to figure out exactly what's got you upset?
If you want to be a professional outragist, at least make it easy for us to know what's got your chainmail bikini in a bunch.
Oh! Is it possible to include a barelly readable image? Because I haven't found a way, the site shrinks every image.
As for the rest of your comment blow me.
Quote from: S'mon;1092400There is actually enough depth and nuance in REH's writings to address a wide variety of themes. But it does not support either simplistic pre-WW2 racism or simplistic modern "anti" racism. "Barbarism will always triumph" is a fairly gloomy view albeit with plenty of historical antecedent.
It's a cycle.
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Quote from: Spinachcat;1092375Not if you played black guys before 2016. History is now recorded in years BT (Before Trump) and AT (After Trump).
Oh, I've been doing it since the mid-90s, when I started playing.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1092375Only if you promise to live in perpetual victimhood. Otherwise you make the baizuo sad.
Damn, I'm doing it wrong; I haven't played my race card ever.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1092375However, I highly recommend SPEARS AT DAWN for everyone who likes OSR games, regardless of your woke/not woke status or your white/not white skin. Kevin Crawford did a great job creating a very workable sandbox setting combining African myths and D&D tropes.
How does it compare to Pundy's own Arrows of Indra, which does OSR Indian myth/history? I mean in terms of OSR mythical games grounded in real stuff.
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1092409As for the rest of your comment blow me.
Next time learn how to post, you little baby.
First of all, I'm posting below the text from the opening image. This is from "World of Conan" -- a free RPG by Simon Carryer released in 2010 but no longer available from the original link. (ref) (http://story-games.com/forums/discussion/13398/world-of-conan-a-free-aw-hack) Note that the first section is pretty much exactly Robert E. Howard's writing - with just two slight changes of wording to make it scan more easily as an excerpt from his longer essay on the world.(ref) (https://aoc.fandom.com/wiki/The_Hyborian_Age_(Howard_Essay))
QuoteWORLD OF CONAN
The kingdoms of the world are clearly defined. The kingdoms of the Hyborians--Aquilonia, Nemedia, Brythunia, Hyperborea, Koth, Ophir, Argos, Corinthia, and one known as the Border Kingdom--dominate the western world. Zamora lies to the east, and Zingara to the southwest of these kingdoms--people alike in darkness of complexion and exotic habits, but otherwise unrelated. Far to the south sleeps Stygia, untouched by foreign invasion, but the peoples of Shem have exchanged the Stygian yoke for the less galling one of Koth.
The dusky masters have been driven south of the great river Styx, Nilus, or Nile, which, flowing north from the shadowy hinterlands, turns almost at right angles and flows almost due west through the pastoral meadowlands of Shem, to empty into the great sea. North of Aquilonia, the western-most Hyborian kingdom, are the Cimmerians, ferocious savages, untamed by the invaders, but advancing rapidly because of contact with them; they are the descendants of the Atlanteans, now progressing more steadily than their old enemies the Picts, who dwell in the wilderness west of Aquilonia.
The Hybori peoples are the possessors of a civilization so virile that contact with it virtually snatched out of the wallow of savagery such tribes as it touched. The most powerful kingdom is Aquilonia, but others vie with it in strength and mixed race; the nearest to the ancient root-stock are the Gundermen of Gunderland, a northern province of Aquilonia. But this mixing has not weakened the race. They are supreme in the western world, though the barbarians of the wastelands are growing in strength.
In the north, golden-haired, blue-eyed barbarians, descendants of the blond arctic savages, have driven the remaining Hyborian tribes out of the snow countries, except the ancient kingdom of Hyperborea, which resists their onslaught. Their country is called Nordheim, and they are divided into the red-haired Vanir of Vanaheim, and the yellow- haired Aesir of Asgard.
Now the Lemurians enter history again as Hyrkanians. Through the centuries they have pushed steadily westward, and now a tribe skirts the southern end of the great inland sea--Vilayet--and establishes the kingdom of Turan on the southwestern shore. Between the inland sea and the eastern borders of the native kingdoms lie vast expanses of steppes and in the extreme north and extreme south, deserts. The non-Hyrkanian dwellers of these territories are scattered and pastoral, unclassified in the north, Shemitish in the south, aboriginal, with a thin strain of Hyborian blood from wandering conquerors. Toward the latter part of the period other Hyrkanian clans push westward, around the northern extremity of the inland sea, and clash with the eastern outposts of the Hyperboreans.
-- Adapted from "The Hyborian Age" by Robert E. Howard
RACE
Howard's Conan stories are a fantasy of a world where race is a real tangible thing, where one's ancestry is an indelible marker of one's true nature. It asks what value civilization has against the untold millennia of humanity's prehistory. It asks what is the natural state of humankind: civilized society, or howling barbarism? In the world of Conan, these two are absolute values, with civilization represented by "whiteness", and "blackness" representing savagery. Howard gives us one answer to these questions, in Conan. Maybe with this game you can give a different answer?
I do think dredging up a small paragraph from a no-longer-available PDF from 2010 seems like reaching for outrage.
Quote from: S'mon;1092379OK, so they got Howard's view pretty much exactly back to front - they think Howard = White = Good = Civilisation, which is pretty much the exact opposite of his view. In REH the dusky Stygians and Zamorans are Civilised = Decadent = Bad, and Civilisation is corrupting the white Hyboreans, while the white Cimmerians are still Savage = Good. The non-white Picts will one day conquer everything due to their resolute savagery and refusal to embrace corrupting Civilisation.
I think maybe the Baizuo can't get their head around REH's anti-civilisation theme. Which is ironic as its modern incarnation derives from Rousseau (though it goes back at least as far as Tacitus) and in the "Oh poor virtuous natives" version is a left-wing trope.
Yeah, I think the last paragraph is off-base. On the other hand, Howard genuinely was very racist - which readers could correctly infer from the sample of his writing that is quoted. The latter paragraph does grossly misinterpret him.
Quote from: jhkim;1092445First of all, I'm posting below the text from the opening image. This is from "World of Conan" -- a free RPG by Simon Carryer released in 2010 but no longer available from the original link. (ref) (http://story-games.com/forums/discussion/13398/world-of-conan-a-free-aw-hack) Note that the first section is pretty much exactly Robert E. Howard's writing - with just two slight changes of wording to make it scan more easily as an excerpt from his longer essay on the world.(ref) (https://aoc.fandom.com/wiki/The_Hyborian_Age_(Howard_Essay))
I do think dredging up a small paragraph from a no-longer-available PDF from 2010 seems like reaching for outrage.
Yeah, I think the last paragraph is off-base. On the other hand, Howard genuinely was very racist - which readers could correctly infer from the sample of his writing that is quoted. The latter paragraph does grossly misinterpret him.
They aren't quoting him, they are reinterpreting his writing.
My most sincere apologies for not knowing it was from 2010 oh all knowing being.
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1092446They aren't quoting him, they are reinterpreting his writing.
My most sincere apologies for not knowing it was from 2010 oh all knowing being.
They are quoting him. The first section is an excerpt from Robert E. Howard's essay "The Hyborian Age". Here's the wikipedia entry on the essay,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hyborian_Age
And here is a wiki version of the full text,
https://aoc.fandom.com/wiki/The_Hyborian_Age_(Howard_Essay)
The excerpt starts about a quarter of the way down. You can search on the phrase ("the kingdoms of the world are clearly defined").
Quote from: jhkim;1092450They are quoting him. The first section is an excerpt from Robert E. Howard's essay "The Hyborian Age". Here's the wikipedia entry on the essay,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hyborian_Age
And here is a wiki version of the full text,
https://aoc.fandom.com/wiki/The_Hyborian_Age_(Howard_Essay)
The excerpt starts about a quarter of the way down. You can search on the phrase ("the kingdoms of the world are clearly defined").
Yes, there's an extrac of the poem, now kindly show us where the racism is?
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1092451Yes, there's an extrac of the poem, now kindly show us where the racism is?
I've never seen a group of ridiculously privileged people complain so much about what some Depression-era author who was barely scraping by in bumblefuck Texas thought about fictional racial groups in some antediluvian world he made up.
Quote from: Brad;1092475I've never seen a group of ridiculously privileged people complain so much about what some Depression-era author who was barely scraping by in bumblefuck Texas thought about fictional racial groups in some antediluvian world he made up.
You've apparently never spent any time in academia.
Quote from: Pat;1092476You've apparently never spent any time in academia.
Oh I have, and RPG messageboards take the cake.
Quote from: Brad;1092475I've never seen a group of ridiculously privileged people complain so much about what some Depression-era author who was barely scraping by in bumblefuck Texas thought about fictional racial groups in some antediluvian world he made up.
I find this kind of hilarious given the thread.
"Someone said something bad on the Internet about R.E. Howard nine years ago! Quick, rush to his defense!"
I think R.E. Howard was a great author, but I don't think there's any doubt that he was racist. What confuses me is why it should be controversial now over 80 years later. This was from a time of segregation and blackface, when the KKK had hundreds of thousands of members. This essay has some details from Howard's letters:
http://www.robert-e-howard.org/SandRoughs4.html
For example,
QuoteHoward's attitude toward violence inflicted on non-whites is visible in some of his letters. In a letter to H. P. Lovecraft, Howard talks about a rancher who was investigated for the murder of a Mexican."[…] just why so much trouble was taken about a Mexican I cannot understand."[iv] In reference to a trial in Honolulu where native Hawaiians were accused of rape, Howard wrote, "I know what would have happened to them in Texas. I don't know whether an Oriental smells any different than a nigger when he's roasting, but I'm willing to bet the aroma of scorching hide would have the same chastening effect on his surviving tribesman."[v] There is also a conversation between Howard and Novalyne Price that is remembered in her memoir on Howard. Howard tells Novalyne,"[…] I guess you know if a Negro is found on the streets after dark in Coleman, Santa Anna, and several other towns around here, they run him out of town. Chances are they might tar and feather him." When Novalyne reacted negatively, Howard returned, "Let me tell you something, girl, that you don't seem to know. Those people come from a different line. They have different blood - "[vi] That Howard would have participated in any racial violence is highly doubtful. "In real life he was squeamish about violence and bloodshed."[vii] But he writes approvingly of racial violence in more than one instance and in the letter to Lovecraft he has implied that he knows the smell of a "nigger" when he's roasting.
Quote from: jhkim;1092486I find this kind of hilarious given the thread.
"Someone said something bad on the Internet about R.E. Howard nine years ago! Quick, rush to his defense!"
I think R.E. Howard was a great author, but I don't think there's any doubt that he was racist. What confuses me is why it should be controversial now over 80 years later. This was from a time of segregation and blackface, when the KKK had hundreds of thousands of members. This essay has some details from Howard's letters:
http://www.robert-e-howard.org/SandRoughs4.html
For example,
I asked you to show where in the part they are quoting is any racism.
Quote"Know, oh prince, that between the years when the
oceans drank Atlantis and the gleaming cities, and the
years of the rise of the Sons of Aryas, there was an Age
undreamed of, when shining kingdoms lay spread
across the world like blue mantles beneath the stars --
Nemedia, Ophir, Brythunia, Hyperborea, Zamora
with its dark-haired women and towers of spider-
haunted mystery, Zingara with its chivalry, Koth that
bordered on the pastoral lands of Shem, Stygia with its
shadow-guarded tombs, Hyrkania whose riders wore
steel and silk and gold. But the proudest kingdom of
the world was Aquilonia, reigning supreme in the
dreaming west. Hither came Conan, the Cimmerian,
black-haired, sullen-eyed, sword in hand, a thief, a
reaver, a slayer, with gigantic melancholies and
gigantic mirth, to tread the jeweled thrones of the
Earth under his sandalled feet."
-- The Nemedian Chronicles.
To make it racist they had to reinterpret it, in ways that don't reflect his writing. And now you are trying to make it about his personal beliefs and not his writings in Conan, nice attempt at moving the goal post.
It's not just the last paragraph in the image, it's all their reinterpretation. I'm happy to give you that a man of his time shared views that were very common in his time.
Now again, where in the only part of his writings they quoted is the racism?
And in Conan the theme is against civilization, lets count the decadent civilizations shall we? First of it's the hiperboreans, white and fully decadent steeped in magic and evil. So no huwhite supremacy there. Then there's the Stygians, blacks being oppressed by a non black decadent, steeped in magic and evil lot. So again, no huwhite supremacy there.
Then there's Kithai, civilized, not white, so he's not making the civilized = good = huwhite.
Now lets see other parts of their re-interpretation
QuoteThe Hybori peoples are the possessors of a civilization so
virile that contact with it virtually snatched out of the wallow
of savagery such tribes as it touched. The most powerful
kingdom is Aquilonia, but others vie with it in strength and
mixed race; the nearest to the ancient root-stock are the
Gundermen of Gunderland, a northern province of Aquilonia.
But this mixing has not weakened the race. They are supreme
in the western world, though the barbarians of the
wastelands are growing in strength.
Really? All of the Conan writings are against civilization, even when Conan becomes King he longs to be rid of the trappings of civilization and to go back to being a pirate, raider, bucaneer.
And the part that should have tipped you they weren't quoting him was this:
Quote- Adapted from "The Hyborian Age" by Robert E. Howard.
Also
Quote from: rgalex;1092492Yeah, WotC is going to go down fast if this is any indication.
https://www.oneangrygamer.net/2019/06/dungeons-and-dragons-designer-convinced-staff-to-use-sjw-tumblr-blog-as-resource/86571/
The general gist of the article is that D&D game designer Kate Welch convinced all of the other game designers at Wizards of the Coast to read through an SJW Tumblr blog as a useful resource for writing "ethnically diverse" characters.
Part of that blog said (emphasis mine):
Now, it's specifically talking about writing other cultures but I can easily see it being applied on a wider scale.
Quote"In real life he was squeamish about violence and bloodshed."
I find that quote about Howard odd, considering he was a dabbling boxer, mentions brawls he was involved in in various letters, and IIRC was known to carry a gun.
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1092495I asked you to show where in the part they are quoting is any racism.
To make it racist they had to reinterpret it, in ways that don't reflect his writing. And now you are trying to make it about his personal beliefs and not his writings in Conan, nice attempt at moving the goal post.
It's not just the last paragraph in the image, it's all their reinterpretation. I'm happy to give you that a man of his time shared views that were very common in his time.
Now again, where in the only part of his writings they quoted is the racism?
And in Conan the theme is against civilization, lets count the decadent civilizations shall we? First of it's the hiperboreans, white and fully decadent steeped in magic and evil. So no huwhite supremacy there. Then there's the Stygians, blacks being oppressed by a non black decadent, steeped in magic and evil lot. So again, no huwhite supremacy there.
Then there's Kithai, civilized, not white, so he's not making the civilized = good = huwhite.
Now lets see other parts of their re-interpretation
Really? All of the Conan writings are against civilization, even when Conan becomes King he longs to be rid of the trappings of civilization and to go back to being a pirate, raider, bucaneer.
And the part that should have tipped you they weren't quoting him was this:
Take a gander at this excerpt from the original essay:
QuoteLook at the world five hundred years later. Tribes of tawny-red-haired Hyborians have moved southward and westward, conquering and destroying many of the small unclassified clans.
Absorbing the blood of conquered races, already the descendants of the older drifts have begun to show modified racial traits, and these mixed races are attacked fiercely by new, purer-blooded drifts, and swept before them, as a broom sweeps debris impartially, to become even more mixed and mingled in the tangled debris of races and tag-ends of races.
As yet the conquerors have not come in contact with the older races. To the southeast the descendants of the Zhemri, given impetus by new blood resulting from admixture with some unclassified tribe, are beginning to seek to revive some faint shadow of their ancient culture. To the west the apish Atlanteans are beginning the long climb upward. They have completed the cycle of existence; they have long forgotten their former existence as men; unaware of any other former state, they are starting the climb unhelped and unhindered by human memories. To the south of them the Picts remain savages, apparently defying the laws of Nature by neither progressing nor retrogressing. Far to the south dreams the ancient mysterious kingdom of Stygia. On its eastern borders wander clans of nomadic savages, already known as the Sons of Shem.
This is very clearly anti-miscegenation screed, but not of the modern sort. REH ties in miscegenation with his theme of degeneration "upward" into civilization, which oddly enough is the exact opposite of modern anti-miscegenation beliefs. I find it quite fascinating how REH tied together such seemingly opposing views.
I get that you like REH and his work. But we shouldn't excuse his peculiarly racist beliefs in life nor how those beliefs colored his work (https://www.jameslafond.com/index.php?t=121). REH clearly took the scientific racism of the 19th and early 20th century and retroactively applied it to his mythical vision of an antediluvian past, ignoring that people back then probably didn't have similar beliefs.
Attacking a dead man or trying to censor his work is stupid. What would be more productive is to challenge his beliefs in prose.
Quote from: jhkim;1092486I find this kind of hilarious given the thread.
"Someone said something bad on the Internet about R.E. Howard nine years ago! Quick, rush to his defense!"
I think R.E. Howard was a great author, but I don't think there's any doubt that he was racist. What confuses me is why it should be controversial now over 80 years later. This was from a time of segregation and blackface, when the KKK had hundreds of thousands of members. This essay has some details from Howard's letters:
http://www.robert-e-howard.org/SandRoughs4.html
For example,
Nice deflection, but I'd expect as much. I said nothing about him being racist/not racist whatsoever. And I didn't defend REH at all. I merely pointed out that people who literally have nothing to worry about in their lives except GrubHub taking 20 minutes too long to deliver the porterhouse from the fancy steakhouse are wringing their hands over how fictional fucking characters are depicted in stories written a hundred years ago.
But go ahead, pretend you have some moral high ground because you're pointing out how racist he was. Win points from your Marxist overlords.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1092557Take a gander at this excerpt from the original essay:
Oh, I will
QuoteLook at the world five hundred years later. Tribes of tawny-red-haired Hyborians have moved southward and westward, conquering and destroying many of the small unclassified clans.
So far so good no racism and no anti-miscegenation
QuoteAbsorbing the blood of conquered races, already the descendants of the older drifts have begun to show modified racial traits, and these mixed races are attacked fiercely by new, purer-blooded drifts, and swept before them, as a broom sweeps debris impartially, to become even more mixed and mingled in the tangled debris of races and tag-ends of races.
This is the tidbit you are taking as anti-miscegenation right? I would agree with you if it wasn't for the next part.
(Emphasis mine)QuoteAs yet the conquerors have not come in contact with the older races. To the southeast the descendants of the Zhemri, given impetus by new blood resulting from admixture with some unclassified tribe, are beginning to seek to revive some faint shadow of their ancient culture.[/U]
If he was or wasn't against interracial marriage I don't know and don't care, the argument is that this is present in his writings in Conan, so now someone has to explain how this piece of text is "clearly" anti-miscegenation while at the same time he writes "
the descendants of the Zhemri, given impetus by new blood resulting form admixture with some unclassified tribe"
You see, taking one small bit of a poem, to claim X is very easy, but when you read the very next paragraph and it contradicts your claim of X then all your argument falls to the ground.
QuoteTo the west the apish Atlanteans are beginning the long climb upward. They have completed the cycle of existence; they have long forgotten their former existence as men; unaware of any other former state, they are starting the climb unhelped and unhindered by human memories. To the south of them the Picts remain savages, apparently defying the laws of Nature by neither progressing nor retrogressing. Far to the south dreams the ancient mysterious kingdom of Stygia. On its eastern borders wander clans of nomadic savages, already known as the Sons of Shem.
This las part has nothing anybody could reasonably misconstrue as racism even out of context.
QuoteThis is very clearly anti-miscegenation screed, but not of the modern sort. REH ties in miscegenation with his theme of degeneration "upward" into civilization, which oddly enough is the exact opposite of modern anti-miscegenation beliefs. I find it quite fascinating how REH tied together such seemingly opposing views.
I find quite fascinating how you can ignore the part that contradicts your claim.
QuoteI get that you like REH and his work. But we shouldn't excuse his peculiarly racist beliefs in life nor how those beliefs colored his work (https://www.jameslafond.com/index.php?t=121). REH clearly took the scientific racism of the 19th and early 20th century and retroactively applied it to his mythical vision of an antediluvian past, ignoring that people back then probably didn't have similar beliefs.
I like his work yes, and I'm not excusing shit, I'm talking about his work and you failed to demonstrate your claim of racism and anti-miscegenation being present in the part YOU choose to use as an example.
QuoteAttacking a dead man or trying to censor his work is stupid. What would be more productive is to challenge his beliefs in prose.
And yet here you are "attacking" him, look, show me evidence that he was a racist and I will say well shit, he was a racist, I have already said I wouldn't be surprised if a man of his time held some beliefs that were sadly very common in his time.
My argument from the start was that they are misinterpreting his writings in Conan, nobody has been able to show I'm wrong. but you're welcome to try and find another part that you think really demonstrates that his racism percolated to his writings in Conan.
Now let us examine that tidbit used to claim
RACISM! and
ANTI-MISCEGENATION! under a less prejudiced lens, and what I will try to be the most impartial exam I'm capable off.
QuoteAbsorbing the blood of conquered races, already the descendants of the older drifts have begun to show modified racial traits,
Okey, so the conqueror is mixing with the conquered and their descendants exhibit modified racial traits,
RACISM! right? Not so fast my friends, are you going to argue that the children of an Ugandan and a red haired white as bread Irish wouldn't exhibit modified racial traits? Wouldn't the offspring of such marriage be a little like the father and a little like the mother? Descent with modification, or in short evolution. So I find no
RACISM!tm in this small part, but lets jump ahead and see if we can find some.
Quoteand these mixed races are attacked fiercely by new, purer-blooded drifts,
"
purer-blooded"? Fucking what? This must be that RACISM! and ANTI-MISCEGENATION! right? Or, if you're not looking for a hint of racism it could be just the fact that the new waves of conquerors haven't yet mixed with the conquered and REH is describing this and not making a moral judgment. Still no
RACISM!tm lets continue.
Quoteand swept before them, as a broom sweeps debris impartially, to become even more mixed and mingled in the tangled debris of races and tag-ends of races.
So the conqueror sweeps before them the conquered, impartially, who become even more mixed with other races. You see, when you take the meaning without trying to search for confirmation of your world view things look different. But you could take the poetic description to claim
RACISM!tm. And you would still need to ignore the next part of the poem
"the descendants of the Zhemri, given impetus by new blood resulting form admixture with some unclassified tribe" in order to be able to do so.
Quote from: Brad;1092564I said nothing about him being racist/not racist whatsoever. And I didn't defend REH at all. I merely pointed out that people who literally have nothing to worry about in their lives except GrubHub taking 20 minutes too long to deliver the porterhouse from the fancy steakhouse are wringing their hands over how fictional fucking characters are depicted in stories written a hundred years ago.
So... Who are you saying has nothing else to worry in their lives? Simon Carryer? GeekyBugle? Me? Others?
I have no idea really, what Simon Carryer or GeekyBugle's lives are like. Maybe they're rich - maybe they're not. It doesn't matter to discussion here. I'm here to shoot the shit about RPGs and other topics like ninety-year-old fantasy stories. I presume you are too. Is it a waste of time? Yeah, sure - but no moreso than other activities for amusement.
Quote from: jhkim;1092641So... Who are you saying has nothing else to worry in their lives? Simon Carryer? GeekyBugle? Me? Others?
I have no idea really, what Simon Carryer or GeekyBugle's lives are like. Maybe they're rich - maybe they're not. It doesn't matter to discussion here. I'm here to shoot the shit about RPGs and other topics like ninety-year-old fantasy stories. I presume you are too. Is it a waste of time? Yeah, sure - but no moreso than other activities for amusement.
Yeah, it's not that I need to distract myself from my country turning into Venezuela2.0 300 medical units of the IMSS closed, no textbooks for elementary school next school year, and our president prays to mother earth for permission to build a fucking train. Also the crime rate skyrocketed because the fucking lefties decided to pardon don't know how many thousands of criminals.
Somehow I doubt
Brad (wasn't there a skit by George Carlin about
Brad?) has ever lived like I lived as a kid, teenager, adult or now approaching my old age.
Newsflash: humans hate each other!
It's cute to see the "REH be waaycist! Like all white Americans!!!". It's not like every other racial group didn't hate every other racial group. I truly love the level of retard necessary to believe non-whites are just oppressed angels whose own cultural history was 24/7 snuggles and cuddles until Bad Whitey showed up.
And as for the bad old days of segregation? Yeah...over a hundred US colleges now offer segregated graduations and many offer ethnic based "safe spaces" and dorms.
So color me unimpressed with 2019's "enlightened" sensibilities.
Quote from: S'mon;1092379The non-white Picts will one day conquer everything due to their resolute savagery and refusal to embrace corrupting Civilisation.
Exactly! For those who don't know, S'mon is referencing REH's KULL stories which are also worth reading.
Quote from: Kiero;1092421How does it compare to Pundy's own Arrows of Indra, which does OSR Indian myth/history? I mean in terms of OSR mythical games grounded in real stuff.
Somebody should do a side-by-side comparison review of Arrows of Indra vs. Spears of Dawn!
I have read both, and neither jumps to mind as "better" than the other. Both authors clearly did their research of the mythologies, histories and cultures and both know their TSR D&D and melded the two, both with obvious bending of the "real world stuff" to make sure the end product was very game-able at the table.
What's cool about both games is how there's no virtue signalling. There are heroes and villains of the same culture and no admonishments about how players should behave. They are throwbacks to RPG settings like Oriental Adventures 1e and Tekumel where its all about the excitement of make believe in a setting inspired by real world aspects, but no politicizing nor evangelizing.
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1092644300 medical units of the IMSS closed, no textbooks for elementary school next school year, and our president prays to mother earth for permission to build a fucking train. Also the crime rate skyrocketed because the fucking lefties decided to pardon don't know how many thousands of criminals.
Please start a thread in RPGPundit's forum about this. I'm in California and our news about anything south of the border is very politically skewed. It would be interesting to hear your thoughts.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1092648Newsflash: humans hate each other!
It's cute to see the "REH be waaycist! Like all white Americans!!!". It's not like every other racial group didn't hate every other racial group. I truly love the level of retard necessary to believe non-whites are just oppressed angels whose own cultural history was 24/7 snuggles and cuddles until Bad Whitey showed up.
So, who are you claiming said this?
All civilizations and all people have their bad sides -- but not everyone is equally bad, or are bad in the same ways. Different people in history had different flaws and virtues.
There is some sexism in every time and place - but some people are less so than others. From what I've read, Howard was progressive with regard to gender, and defended women's rights and accomplishments. And this shows in his stories, which include a number of strong women (particularly for the pulp adventure genre).
Quote from: Spinachcat;1092649Please start a thread in RPGPundit's forum about this. I'm in California and our news about anything south of the border is very politically skewed. It would be interesting to hear your thoughts.
Done, awaiting approval by a moderator.
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1092570Oh, I will
So far so good no racism and no anti-miscegenation
This is the tidbit you are taking as anti-miscegenation right? I would agree with you if it wasn't for the next part. (Emphasis mine)
If he was or wasn't against interracial marriage I don't know and don't care, the argument is that this is present in his writings in Conan, so now someone has to explain how this piece of text is "clearly" anti-miscegenation while at the same time he writes "the descendants of the Zhemri, given impetus by new blood resulting form admixture with some unclassified tribe"
You see, taking one small bit of a poem, to claim X is very easy, but when you read the very next paragraph and it contradicts your claim of X then all your argument falls to the ground.
This las part has nothing anybody could reasonably misconstrue as racism even out of context.
I find quite fascinating how you can ignore the part that contradicts your claim.
I like his work yes, and I'm not excusing shit, I'm talking about his work and you failed to demonstrate your claim of racism and anti-miscegenation being present in the part YOU choose to use as an example.
And yet here you are "attacking" him, look, show me evidence that he was a racist and I will say well shit, he was a racist, I have already said I wouldn't be surprised if a man of his time held some beliefs that were sadly very common in his time.
My argument from the start was that they are misinterpreting his writings in Conan, nobody has been able to show I'm wrong. but you're welcome to try and find another part that you think really demonstrates that his racism percolated to his writings in Conan.
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1092571Now let us examine that tidbit used to claim RACISM! and ANTI-MISCEGENATION! under a less prejudiced lens, and what I will try to be the most impartial exam I'm capable off.
Okey, so the conqueror is mixing with the conquered and their descendants exhibit modified racial traits, RACISM! right? Not so fast my friends, are you going to argue that the children of an Ugandan and a red haired white as bread Irish wouldn't exhibit modified racial traits? Wouldn't the offspring of such marriage be a little like the father and a little like the mother? Descent with modification, or in short evolution. So I find no RACISM!tm in this small part, but lets jump ahead and see if we can find some.
"purer-blooded"? Fucking what? This must be that RACISM! and ANTI-MISCEGENATION! right? Or, if you're not looking for a hint of racism it could be just the fact that the new waves of conquerors haven't yet mixed with the conquered and REH is describing this and not making a moral judgment. Still no RACISM!tm lets continue.
So the conqueror sweeps before them the conquered, impartially, who become even more mixed with other races. You see, when you take the meaning without trying to search for confirmation of your world view things look different. But you could take the poetic description to claim RACISM!tm. And you would still need to ignore the next part of the poem "the descendants of the Zhemri, given impetus by new blood resulting form admixture with some unclassified tribe" in order to be able to do so.
I wasn't attacking REH. I was trying to defend him. I was trying to analyze his work without making moral judgments. I agreed with you on the point that the indie game misunderstood the racial politics of the Hyborian Age. REH's racism wasn't simplistic, but complex and variable throughout his life (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Character_of_Robert_E._Howard#Racism). I thought REH's unique form of racism and noble savage idealization made his works more colorful, even. Racism is an immensely complicated subject, and I have neither the expertise nor the inclination to educate anyone.
Unfortunately, your responses give me a clear impression that you care not for discourse and want only to be validated in your belief that REH's work is devoid of anything that could be remotely construed as racist. Any further response on my part will be pointless, thus I bid you goodbye.
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1092644Somehow I doubt Brad (wasn't there a skit by George Carlin about Brad?) has ever lived like I lived as a kid, teenager, adult or now approaching my old age.
Sure, let's just make assumptions.
FWIW, REH tended to be rather obsessed with race, which is one thing I find annoying with many of his writings. Still, I think what is happening in that last paragraph is misinterpreting his use of the word "black". He loved that word, as in "People of the Black Circle" etc. but he wasn't talking about race in those cases.
Quote from: jhkim;1092653So, who are you claiming said this?
The "Who are you claiming said this?" has to be playing dumb as nobody is that naive passed five years old.
Who said it? It is drilled into us 24/7 by news outlets, university professors, special interest activists and all of their "woke" followers regurgitate this idea repeatedly every day. We are told that we are bad, we are colonists, invaders, we are the destroyers of noble civilizations and indigenous people. The fact is humans, all humans, are guilty of these atrocities over and over throughout history against those different from them and those like them. What race is better than another? None. Which race is worse? None. Which race is innocent of harming other races? None.
Presented without comment or endorsement:
https://www.themarysue.com/how-dungeons-and-dragons-became-so-gay/
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1092742Presented without comment or endorsement:
https://www.themarysue.com/how-dungeons-and-dragons-became-so-gay/
I need to tell my gay gaming friends that I'm sorry for burying them all these
decades. I never knew that our D&D games were ignoring them and making it difficult for them to put a pencil to their character-sheets and detail that their characters were in fact, gay.
Because... you know. That's so difficult. We've come a long way, baby!
Maybe in a few decades we'll be allowed to make characters of color too, without fear, and actually write that on our character sheets and the Mary Sue will realize that too and write an article.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1092742Presented without comment or endorsement:
https://www.themarysue.com/how-dungeons-and-dragons-became-so-gay/
That's hilarious. Gygax and Arneson didn't invent D&D because they thought it was fun, they actually did it
specifically to exclude you!:rolleyes:
What a bunch of drama queens people are.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1092731I wasn't attacking REH. I was trying to defend him. I was trying to analyze his work without making moral judgments. I agreed with you on the point that the indie game misunderstood the racial politics of the Hyborian Age. REH's racism wasn't simplistic, but complex and variable throughout his life (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Character_of_Robert_E._Howard#Racism). I thought REH's unique form of racism and noble savage idealization made his works more colorful, even. Racism is an immensely complicated subject, and I have neither the expertise nor the inclination to educate anyone.
Unfortunately, your responses give me a clear impression that you care not for discourse and want only to be validated in your belief that REH's work is devoid of anything that could be remotely construed as racist. Any further response on my part will be pointless, thus I bid you goodbye.
Translation, you have no evidence of racism in REH's Conan writings, at least none that can withstand the least bit of critical thinking. Adios good fella.
Quote from: SpinachcatIt's cute to see the "REH be waaycist! Like all white Americans!!!". It's not like every other racial group didn't hate every other racial group. I truly love the level of retard necessary to believe non-whites are just oppressed angels whose own cultural history was 24/7 snuggles and cuddles until Bad Whitey showed up.
Quote from: jhkimSo, who are you claiming said this?
Quote from: bat;1092741The "Who are you claiming said this?" has to be playing dumb as nobody is that naive passed five years old.
Who said it? It is drilled into us 24/7 by news outlets, university professors, special interest activists and all of their "woke" followers regurgitate this idea repeatedly every day. We are told that we are bad, we are colonists, invaders, we are the destroyers of noble civilizations and indigenous people. The fact is humans, all humans, are guilty of these atrocities over and over throughout history against those different from them and those like them. What race is better than another? None. Which race is worse? None. Which race is innocent of harming other races? None.
So, first of all, my question is who *here* (i.e. on this forum thread) believes that anyone's history was snuggles and cuddles. If you want to take issue with someone outside the thread, then link to them or specify them. In normal discussion, you respond to what the other people in the discussion say.
I agree that all races have committed atrocities and harm. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't recognize and admit to racism in particular people.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1092648Exactly! For those who don't know, S'mon is referencing REH's KULL stories which are also worth reading.
I was actually referencing his essay on the Hyborean Age and how it ends, with the Pictish conquest of Hyborea following failed Mithraic conversion efforts.
Personally I think Howard was all over the place and sometimes wrote stuff that could reasonably be construed as racist. While other stuff looks non-racist. I'd say he was inspired by what he found exciting and engaging, which would include sources like Maddison Grant or similar generally regarded as racist today. But he's certainly nothing like a modern white nationalist.
Quote from: Pat;1092370Would it be that hard to actually include a barely readable image, or did you think you might miss a few clicks on your precious Twitter feed?
And apparently what's got you outraged is the last couple sentences. Couldn't you quote that sentence or two, instead of forcing us to read through all kinds of unrelated shit while trying to figure out exactly what's got you upset?
If you want to be a professional outragist, at least make it easy for us to know what's got your chainmail bikini in a bunch.
He's just another fucking chode that has turned up to make sure nobody here can actually read a thread about RPGs; rather, just regurgitate the same apocalyptic bull shit we get in the semi weekly threads from the newbies that turn up whining about how TBP touched them on their naughty bits. It's gotten to the point where its every bit as ridiculous as reading the other site, too.
Quote from: S'mon;1092804I was actually referencing his essay on the Hyborean Age and how it ends, with the Pictish conquest of Hyborea following failed Mithraic conversion efforts.
Oops! Sorry! I'll have to reread that!
The Kull stories heavily reference the Picts conquest, followed by the barbarians becoming the new civilization which of course devolves into decadence and is conquered by the savage Kull, only to discover who really wields the power behind the throne. REH's thoughts on civilization vs. barbarism are discussed very openly in the Kull tales whereas more alluded to in the Conan stories through the characters actions and attitudes.
While the Conan tales are (in general) superior, I highly recommend the Kull stories to anyone who enjoys REH.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1092849Oops! Sorry! I'll have to reread that!
The Kull stories heavily reference the Picts conquest, followed by the barbarians becoming the new civilization which of course devolves into decadence and is conquered by the savage Kull, only to discover who really wields the power behind the throne. REH's thoughts on civilization vs. barbarism are discussed very openly in the Kull tales whereas more alluded to in the Conan stories through the characters actions and attitudes.
While the Conan tales are (in general) superior, I highly recommend the Kull stories to anyone who enjoys REH.
Or the Bran Mak Morn tales too.
Not to mention the Solomon Kane ones.
Quote from: Aglondir;1092389Even China ridicules SJWs?! The rest of the world is going to punk us when the soyboys and dangerhairs are in charge.
Yeah but it also means "how dare people complain about anything that the CCP does, they're obviously all evil hypocrites."
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1092858Or the Bran Mak Morn tales too.
Not to mention the Solomon Kane ones.
Solomon Kane is the best of an excellent bunch.