Newsflash: humans hate each other!

It's cute to see the "REH be waaycist! Like all white Americans!!!". It's not like every other racial group didn't hate every other racial group. I truly love the level of retard necessary to believe non-whites are just oppressed angels whose own cultural history was 24/7 snuggles and cuddles until Bad Whitey showed up.  

And as for the bad old days of segregation? Yeah...over a hundred US colleges now offer segregated graduations and many offer ethnic based "safe spaces" and dorms.  

So color me unimpressed with 2019's "enlightened" sensibilities.

Quote from: S'mon;1092379The non-white Picts will one day conquer everything due to their resolute savagery and refusal to embrace corrupting Civilisation.

Exactly! For those who don't know, S'mon is referencing REH's KULL stories which are also worth reading.

Quote from: Kiero;1092421How does it compare to Pundy's own Arrows of Indra, which does OSR Indian myth/history? I mean in terms of OSR mythical games grounded in real stuff.

Somebody should do a side-by-side comparison review of Arrows of Indra vs. Spears of Dawn!

I have read both, and neither jumps to mind as "better" than the other. Both authors clearly did their research of the mythologies, histories and cultures and both know their TSR D&D and melded the two, both with obvious bending of the "real world stuff" to make sure the end product was very game-able at the table.

What's cool about both games is how there's no virtue signalling. There are heroes and villains of the same culture and no admonishments about how players should behave. They are throwbacks to RPG settings like Oriental Adventures 1e and Tekumel where its all about the excitement of make believe in a setting inspired by real world aspects, but no politicizing nor evangelizing.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1092644300 medical units of the IMSS closed, no textbooks for elementary school next school year, and our president prays to mother earth for permission to build a fucking train. Also the crime rate skyrocketed because the fucking lefties decided to pardon don't know how many thousands of criminals.

Please start a thread in RPGPundit's forum about this. I'm in California and our news about anything south of the border is very politically skewed. It would be interesting to hear your thoughts.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1092648Newsflash: humans hate each other!

It's cute to see the "REH be waaycist! Like all white Americans!!!". It's not like every other racial group didn't hate every other racial group. I truly love the level of retard necessary to believe non-whites are just oppressed angels whose own cultural history was 24/7 snuggles and cuddles until Bad Whitey showed up.

So, who are you claiming said this?

All civilizations and all people have their bad sides -- but not everyone is equally bad, or are bad in the same ways. Different people in history had different flaws and virtues.

There is some sexism in every time and place - but some people are less so than others. From what I've read, Howard was progressive with regard to gender, and defended women's rights and accomplishments. And this shows in his stories, which include a number of strong women (particularly for the pulp adventure genre).

Quote from: Spinachcat;1092649Please start a thread in RPGPundit's forum about this. I'm in California and our news about anything south of the border is very politically skewed. It would be interesting to hear your thoughts.

Done, awaiting approval by a moderator.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1092570Oh, I will



So far so good no racism and no anti-miscegenation



This is the tidbit you are taking as anti-miscegenation right? I would agree with you if it wasn't for the next part. (Emphasis mine)



If he was or wasn't against interracial marriage I don't know and don't care, the argument is that this is present in his writings in Conan, so now someone has to explain how this piece of text is "clearly" anti-miscegenation while at the same time he writes "the descendants of the Zhemri, given impetus by new blood resulting form admixture with some unclassified tribe"
 You see, taking one small bit of a poem, to claim X is very easy, but when you read the very next paragraph and it contradicts your claim of X then all your argument falls to the ground.


This las part has nothing anybody could reasonably misconstrue as racism even out of context.




I find quite fascinating how you can ignore the part that contradicts your claim.



I like his work yes, and I'm not excusing shit, I'm talking about his work and you failed to demonstrate your claim of racism and anti-miscegenation being present in the part YOU choose to use as an example.



And yet here you are "attacking" him, look, show me evidence that he was a racist and I will say well shit, he was a racist, I have already said I wouldn't be surprised if a man of his time held some beliefs that were sadly very common in his time.

My argument from the start was that they are misinterpreting his writings in Conan, nobody has been able to show I'm wrong. but you're welcome to try and find another part that you think really demonstrates that his racism percolated to his writings in Conan.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1092571Now let us examine that tidbit used to claim RACISM! and ANTI-MISCEGENATION! under a less prejudiced lens, and what I will try to be the most impartial exam I'm capable off.



Okey, so the conqueror is mixing with the conquered and their descendants exhibit modified racial traits, RACISM! right? Not so fast my friends, are you going to argue that the children of an Ugandan and a red haired white as bread Irish wouldn't exhibit modified racial traits? Wouldn't the offspring of such marriage be a little like the father and a little like the mother? Descent with modification, or in short evolution. So I find no RACISM!tm in this small part, but lets jump ahead and see if we can find some.



"purer-blooded"? Fucking what? This must be that RACISM! and ANTI-MISCEGENATION! right? Or, if you're not looking for a hint of racism it could be just the fact that the new waves of conquerors haven't yet mixed with the conquered and REH is describing this and not making a moral judgment. Still no RACISM!tm lets continue.



So the conqueror sweeps before them the conquered, impartially, who become even more mixed with other races. You see, when you take the meaning without trying to search for confirmation of your world view things look different. But you could take the poetic description to claim RACISM!tm. And you would still need to ignore the next part of the poem "the descendants of the Zhemri, given impetus by new blood resulting form admixture with some unclassified tribe" in order to be able to do so.

I wasn't attacking REH. I was trying to defend him. I was trying to analyze his work without making moral judgments. I agreed with you on the point that the indie game misunderstood the racial politics of the Hyborian Age. REH's racism wasn't simplistic, but complex and variable throughout his life. I thought REH's unique form of racism and noble savage idealization made his works more colorful, even. Racism is an immensely complicated subject, and I have neither the expertise nor the inclination to educate anyone.

Unfortunately, your responses give me a clear impression that you care not for discourse and want only to be validated in your belief that REH's work is devoid of anything that could be remotely construed as racist. Any further response on my part will be pointless, thus I bid you goodbye.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1092644Somehow I doubt Brad (wasn't there a skit by George Carlin about Brad?) has ever lived like I lived as a kid, teenager, adult or now approaching my old age.

Sure, let's just make assumptions.

FWIW, REH tended to be rather obsessed with race, which is one thing I find annoying with many of his writings. Still, I think what is happening in that last paragraph is misinterpreting his use of the word "black". He loved that word, as in "People of the Black Circle" etc. but he wasn't talking about race in those cases.

Quote from: jhkim;1092653So, who are you claiming said this?

The "Who are you claiming said this?" has to be playing dumb as nobody is that naive passed five years old.

Who said it? It is drilled into us 24/7 by news outlets, university professors, special interest activists and all of their "woke" followers regurgitate this idea repeatedly every day. We are told that we are bad, we are colonists, invaders, we are the destroyers of noble civilizations and indigenous people. The fact is humans,  all humans, are guilty of these atrocities over and over throughout history against those different from them and those like them. What race is better than another? None. Which race is worse? None. Which race is innocent of harming other races? None.

Presented without comment or endorsement:

https://www.themarysue.com/how-dungeons-and-dragons-became-so-gay/

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1092742Presented without comment or endorsement:

https://www.themarysue.com/how-dungeons-and-dragons-became-so-gay/

I need to tell my gay gaming friends that I'm sorry for burying them all these decades. I never knew that our D&D games were ignoring them and making it difficult for them to put a pencil to their character-sheets and detail that their characters were in fact, gay.

Because... you know. That's so difficult. We've come a long way, baby!

Maybe in a few decades we'll be allowed to make characters of color too, without fear, and actually write that on our character sheets and the Mary Sue will realize that too and write an article.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1092742Presented without comment or endorsement:

https://www.themarysue.com/how-dungeons-and-dragons-became-so-gay/

That's hilarious. Gygax and Arneson didn't invent D&D because they thought it was fun, they actually did it specifically to exclude you!:rolleyes:

What a bunch of drama queens people are.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1092731I wasn't attacking REH. I was trying to defend him. I was trying to analyze his work without making moral judgments. I agreed with you on the point that the indie game misunderstood the racial politics of the Hyborian Age. REH's racism wasn't simplistic, but complex and variable throughout his life. I thought REH's unique form of racism and noble savage idealization made his works more colorful, even. Racism is an immensely complicated subject, and I have neither the expertise nor the inclination to educate anyone.

Unfortunately, your responses give me a clear impression that you care not for discourse and want only to be validated in your belief that REH's work is devoid of anything that could be remotely construed as racist. Any further response on my part will be pointless, thus I bid you goodbye.

Translation, you have no evidence of racism in REH's Conan writings, at least none that can withstand the least bit of critical thinking. Adios good fella.

Quote from: SpinachcatIt's cute to see the "REH be waaycist! Like all white Americans!!!". It's not like every other racial group didn't hate every other racial group. I truly love the level of retard necessary to believe non-whites are just oppressed angels whose own cultural history was 24/7 snuggles and cuddles until Bad Whitey showed up.

Quote from: jhkimSo, who are you claiming said this?

Quote from: bat;1092741The "Who are you claiming said this?" has to be playing dumb as nobody is that naive passed five years old.

Who said it? It is drilled into us 24/7 by news outlets, university professors, special interest activists and all of their "woke" followers regurgitate this idea repeatedly every day. We are told that we are bad, we are colonists, invaders, we are the destroyers of noble civilizations and indigenous people. The fact is humans,  all humans, are guilty of these atrocities over and over throughout history against those different from them and those like them. What race is better than another? None. Which race is worse? None. Which race is innocent of harming other races? None.

So, first of all, my question is who *here* (i.e. on this forum thread) believes that anyone's history was snuggles and cuddles. If you want to take issue with someone outside the thread, then link to them or specify them. In normal discussion, you respond to what the other people in the discussion say.

I agree that all races have committed atrocities and harm. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't recognize and admit to racism in particular people.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1092648Exactly! For those who don't know, S'mon is referencing REH's KULL stories which are also worth reading.

I was actually referencing his essay on the Hyborean Age and how it ends, with the Pictish conquest of Hyborea following failed Mithraic conversion efforts.

Personally I think Howard was all over the place and sometimes wrote stuff that could reasonably be construed as racist. While other stuff looks non-racist. I'd say he was inspired by what he found exciting and engaging, which would include sources like Maddison Grant or similar generally regarded as racist today. But he's certainly nothing like a modern white nationalist.

Quote from: Pat;1092370Would it be that hard to actually include a barely readable image, or did you think you might miss a few clicks on your precious Twitter feed?

And apparently what's got you outraged is the last couple sentences. Couldn't you quote that sentence or two, instead of forcing us to read through all kinds of unrelated shit while trying to figure out exactly what's got you upset?

If you want to be a professional outragist, at least make it easy for us to know what's got your chainmail bikini in a bunch.

He's just another fucking chode that has turned up to make sure nobody here can actually read a thread about RPGs; rather, just regurgitate the same apocalyptic bull shit we get in the semi weekly threads from the newbies that turn up whining about how TBP touched them on their naughty bits. It's gotten to the point where its every bit as ridiculous as reading the other site, too.