Quote from: Mistwell;586509OK, seems reasonable to me.

So you seem to be saying (extrapolating here) that secret doors should have some reasonable clue that can tip off the players that it exists.  And, that when secret doors become too "secret" from the players, they're apt to just start wasting time in every room and corridor touching and prodding everything looking for them in response to the belief that they won't get sufficient clues to spot them otherwise.  Is that a fair summary of what you're saying?

Yes, the trap is being too clever with the secret door design, because then it is likely that it will neither get found nor opened.

Quote from: _kent_;586639Here's a question. Was it a mistake to give Elves a 2 in 6 chance of secret door detection, an improvement over the ordinary human 1 in 6 chance? Has this rule lessened the prevalence of experimentation and the verbal description of the search at the gametable?

My thinking is that there is no reason to expect the player of that Elf to be any more ingenious in his explicit verbal searching methods than any other player and somehow it feels like a disincentive for parties with an elf not to promote the d6 mechanic for searching.

I use the secret door detection roll to determine whether the players see whatever it is that might indicate a secret door is there. They have to work out for themselves what it signifies. (It might be as simple as a crack on the floor, a hook in the ceiling, etc.)

I solve the elf problem by not using elves in my campaign setting. If I did have elves they would have a 1 in 6 chance like humans - I don't understand the rationale for making them better at it, seeing as how they're supposed to be forest dwellers who don't build elaborate stone works.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;586644Pardon me while I roll my eyes in the general direction of your inability to grasp nuance or abstraction.

I only use one bin for rubbish.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;586644The problem is that it simply isn't fun to play out a constant of regimen of wall-tapping, sconce-twisting, brick-poking, and ornament-rubbing in Every. Single. Room. The ratio of mindnumbing boredom to exciting reward is simply not there.

As far as I have seen players will only check for secret doors in desperation, in suspicion or after deduction. 'Every.Single.Room.' would be cretinous and boring.

Ah yes, "old school play". We have dismissed this claim.

I poke the walls, the floor, the ceiling with my 11ft pole.

I disbelive the walls, the floor, the ceiling, the table, the air, theRPGsite.

It really is like one of those old adventure games where you rub everything agains eveything else in the hopes hopping on the GMs moon logic train and triggering the next plot even. Of course since this is old school you also die form equally bizarre moon logic. So you get busy metagaming or you get busy rolling new characters.

Quote from: Lord Mistborn;586720Ah yes, "old school play". We have dismissed this claim.

I poke the walls, the floor, the ceiling with my 11ft pole.

I disbelive the walls, the floor, the ceiling, the table, the air, theRPGsite.

It really is like one of those old adventure games where you rub everything agains eveything else in the hopes hopping on the GMs moon logic train and triggering the next plot even. Of course since this is old school you also die form equally bizarre moon logic. So you get busy metagaming or you get busy rolling new characters.

Assuming this isn't just a randm rant against old school, but a response to the conversation so far:

There are always trade offs with these sorts of mechanics but both approaches are entirely viable LM. I continue to use both depending on the game I am playing and the group. There is something to be said for not having mechanics that replace the player interacting with the environment. GM has to give more thoriugh descriptions and the players interact more directly with the setting much of the time. On the other hand it can be useful to have a consistent measure of a character's ability to detect things. Really it depends on the kind of adventure you are trying to run. Sometimes with a murder mystery for example, it can be more enjoyable to take out the detect and social skill rules so the players can genuinely pkay the detective. That isnt the only way to do it. You can have fun with detect and social skill rolls as well.

Quote from: Lord Mistborn;586720Ah yes, "old school play". We have dismissed this claim.

I poke the walls, the floor, the ceiling with my 11ft pole.

I disbelive the walls, the floor, the ceiling, the table, the air, theRPGsite.

It really is like one of those old adventure games where you rub everything agains eveything else in the hopes hopping on the GMs moon logic train and triggering the next plot even. Of course since this is old school you also die form equally bizarre moon logic. So you get busy metagaming or you get busy rolling new characters.

Oh yeah a die roll is SO much more engaging. I get all excited just waiting for a chance to scream " I GOT A 35!" instead of interacting with the setting. :rolleyes:

Quote from: noisms;586670I use the secret door detection roll to determine whether the players see whatever it is that might indicate a secret door is there. They have to work out for themselves what it signifies. (It might be as simple as a crack on the floor, a hook in the ceiling, etc.)

This.  I've never played with anyone who used the find secret doors roll to indicate that not only was a secret door's presence detected, but the manner of opening was discovered, too.  I'm pretty sure that's borne out in just about any play example published by TSR.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;586741Oh yeah a die roll is SO much more engaging. I get all excited just waiting for a chance to scream " I GOT A 35!" instead of interacting with the setting. :rolleyes:

:rotfl:

I kind of use both. As you explore the dungeon, I roll behind the screen the chances in 6 to find secret doors. If the die indicates a find, I describe to the party something to the effect of "you notice a difference in the texture of the wall at this spot" or "you feel a breathe coming through the wall's masonry" that type of thing. The PCs know there's something there. Then they tell me what they do, poke at thw walls, push bricks, etc. Usually the activation mechanisms are easy and I'm lenient about the investigation.

If the die doesn't show you noticed something, but you tell me at some point "I investigate this wall" then you will find the discoloration, the draft of air, etc automatically. Then you can tell me you search for a trigger or moving brick or whatnot and you'll generally find the mechanism without a die roll.

A few times however, some doors will not be so easily opened or reached. There, you player will have to be clever and find out how to solve the problem for yourself.

That's it.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;586741Oh yeah a die roll is SO much more engaging. I get all excited just waiting for a chance to scream " I GOT A 35!" instead of interacting with the setting. :rolleyes:

I doesn't matter if your bullshit secret doors and death no save traps are detectable with search checks or the handy 11ft pole. There result is the same the party will spam the same actions against every object because as long as everything can randomly kill you or give you free swag you have to assume that they will unless proven otherwise.


Actual play looks something like this

DM ok you enter the room there is an altar to Nerull in the nearest corner and the floor in front of it is covered by a fine rug several nearly burred out torches cast their feeble light over that part of the room but the rest of the room is in shadow.
LM welp here we go again I've still got 200 pages of the Gathering Storm left. let me know if anything that needs my spells happens
Other PC I throw one of my stones with continual flame into the center the room.
DM: the room is fully illuminated the ceiling and floor are made of stone as are the walls on the other side of the room is a wooden door.
Other PC I roll to disbelieve the floor
DM for fucks sake it's not an illusion
Other PC I roll to disbelieve the ceiling, the walls, the rug, the torches, the altar, the door
DM those are all real to, can we stop with this
Other PC I sweep the room with my still active Detect Magic
DM you detect no magic
Other PC ok then I push on the floor with my 11ft pole
DM Nothing happens
Other PC I push on the ceiling with my 11ft pole
DM Nothing happens
… Much 11ft pole nonsense later
Other PC LM summon something
LM bweh. Geez just when it was getting good to, fine I cast SM 1 summoning a Celestial Monkey
Other PC order it to pick up the jewel encrusted idol of Nerull it's got to be worth something
LM sigh I order the Monkey to pick up the idol does anything happen to it
DM no
LM fine the I order the Monkey to bring it here and put it in Other PC's bag of holding
Other PC I roll to disbelieve the door
DM you already did that and it's just a fucking door
Other PC LM order your monkey to open the door
LM I order the monkey to open the door.
And so on, well actually play is usually even more pendantic.

Quote from: Benoist;586762I kind of use both. As you explore the dungeon, I roll behind the screen the chances in 6 to find secret doors.
...
If the die doesn't show you noticed something, but you tell me at some point "I investigate this wall" then you will find the discoloration ...

Aren't you supposed to roll for discovery only if a player says "I investigate this wall"? In other words in your example above any roll would be redundant.

Im not a btb guy so Im just making the point clear.

Quote from: Lord Mistborn;586763[IMG]Actual play looks something like this

DM ok you enter the room there is an altar to Nerull in the nearest corner and the floor in front of it is covered by a fine rug several nearly burred out torches cast their feeble light over that part of the room but the rest of the room is in shadow.
LM welp here we go again I've still got 200 pages of the Gathering Storm left. let me know if anything that needs my spells happens
Other PC I throw one of my stones with continual flame into the center the room.
DM: the room is fully illuminated the ceiling and floor are made of stone as are the walls on the other side of the room is a wooden door.
Other PC I roll to disbelieve the floor
DM for fucks sake it's not an illusion
Other PC I roll to disbelieve the ceiling, the walls, the rug, the torches, the altar, the door
DM those are all real to, can we stop with this
Other PC I sweep the room with my still active Detect Magic
DM you detect no magic
Other PC ok then I push on the floor with my 11ft pole
DM Nothing happens
Other PC I push on the ceiling with my 11ft pole
DM Nothing happens
... Much 11ft pole nonsense later
Other PC LM summon something
LM bweh. Geez just when it was getting good to, fine I cast SM 1 summoning a Celestial Monkey
Other PC order it to pick up the jewel encrusted idol of Nerull it's got to be worth something
LM sigh I order the Monkey to pick up the idol does anything happen to it
DM no
LM fine the I order the Monkey to bring it here and put it in Other PC's bag of holding
Other PC I roll to disbelieve the door
DM you already did that and it's just a fucking door
Other PC LM order your monkey to open the door
LM I order the monkey to open the door.
And so on, well actually play is usually even more pendantic.

If you really enjoy that then go for it but don't try convincing anyone that it came from anywhere but your ass.

Quote from: Lord Mistborn;586763the party will spam the same actions against every object because as long as everything can randomly kill you or give you free swag you have to assume that they will unless proven otherwise.

If this is your point then the essence of what you are saying is that you have autistic players.

Quote from: _kent_;586768Aren't you supposed to roll for discovery only if a player says "I investigate this wall"? In other words in your example above any roll would be redundant.

Im not a btb guy so Im just making the point clear.

In BTB OD&D, men find secret doors on an active search 2 in 6. Elves 4 in 6. However, elves can sense something is there by just walking by 2 in 6, and men 1 in 6, at the DM's discretion.

At my table, I assume the base chances in 6 are generally for mere detection that something's not quite right instead, and that active search makes you aware automatically. The challenge is in determining when to spend the time to search, with the potential risk of wandering monsters, interruptions, hazards, etc.

Note also that opening secret doors BTB is subject to a roll (Strength). 2 in 6 is the base chance of success. Same page 9 of U&WA.

Quote from: Lord Mistborn;586763I doesn't matter if your bullshit secret doors and death no save traps are detectable with search checks or the handy 11ft pole. There result is the same the party will spam the same actions against every object because as long as everything can randomly kill you or give you free swag you have to assume that they will unless proven otherwise.


Actual play looks something like this

DM ok you enter the room there is an altar to Nerull in the nearest corner and the floor in front of it is covered by a fine rug several nearly burred out torches cast their feeble light over that part of the room but the rest of the room is in shadow.
LM welp here we go again I've still got 200 pages of the Gathering Storm left. let me know if anything that needs my spells happens
Other PC I throw one of my stones with continual flame into the center the room.
DM: the room is fully illuminated the ceiling and floor are made of stone as are the walls on the other side of the room is a wooden door.
Other PC I roll to disbelieve the floor
DM for fucks sake it's not an illusion
Other PC I roll to disbelieve the ceiling, the walls, the rug, the torches, the altar, the door
DM those are all real to, can we stop with this
Other PC I sweep the room with my still active Detect Magic
DM you detect no magic
Other PC ok then I push on the floor with my 11ft pole
DM Nothing happens
Other PC I push on the ceiling with my 11ft pole
DM Nothing happens
... Much 11ft pole nonsense later
Other PC LM summon something
LM bweh. Geez just when it was getting good to, fine I cast SM 1 summoning a Celestial Monkey
Other PC order it to pick up the jewel encrusted idol of Nerull it's got to be worth something
LM sigh I order the Monkey to pick up the idol does anything happen to it
DM no
LM fine the I order the Monkey to bring it here and put it in Other PC's bag of holding
Other PC I roll to disbelieve the door
DM you already did that and it's just a fucking door
Other PC LM order your monkey to open the door
LM I order the monkey to open the door.
And so on, well actually play is usually even more pendantic.

You must game with a bag of assholes.