So I can run my group through a converted version of White Plume Mountain

Seriously, I'm really itching to play this, seeing how Next's mechanics factor in.

The great thing about WPM is that it's fairly short, and implements a lot of things other than combat (ability checks, player ingenuity, etc).  Sort of the whole package.

I don't know, so that the Denners will have something else to do, other than posting to theRPGsite?

Seriously, though, while I'm not 100% behind every complaint about the high-level game it's fairly evident that in 3e it wasn't to everyone's satisfaction. So the high-level game does need playtesting, badly.

And WPM is a cool module, but since the aim of playtesting is to actually try and "break" things, maybe something more intense is called for here.

(Not that you're not going to have a blast with WPM)

Quote from: The Butcher;588714Seriously, though, while I'm not 100% behind every complaint about the high-level game it's fairly evident that in 3e it wasn't to everyone's satisfaction. So the high-level game does need playtesting, badly.

And WPM is a cool module, but since the aim of playtesting is to actually try and "break" things, maybe something more intense is called for here.

(Not that you're not going to have a blast with WPM)

The major problem seems to be with having a 25th level character still out digging around subterranean treasure vaults for a few pieces of gold.  Somewhere between 10th and 15th level, the game should switch over to domain management.

That doesn't appeal to everyone, of course, but a good 15 levels of killing things and taking their stuff should be satisfactory.  Those who want to continue playing past about 15th level can start their kingdoms or whatever, and the others can retire those characters and start over with a new campaign.

Quote from: The Butcher;588714I don't know, so that the Denners will have something else to do, other than posting to theRPGsite?

Seriously, though, while I'm not 100% behind every complaint about the high-level game it's fairly evident that in 3e it wasn't to everyone's satisfaction. So the high-level game does need playtesting, badly.

And WPM is a cool module, but since the aim of playtesting is to actually try and "break" things, maybe something more intense is called for here.

(Not that you're not going to have a blast with WPM)

Oh, I don't care if they have WPM as an official playtest doc.  I just want D&D Next playtest material to cover up to level 10 so I can convert my existing WPM module to Next

Quote from: StormBringer;588769The major problem seems to be with having a 25th level character still out digging around subterranean treasure vaults for a few pieces of gold.  Somewhere between 10th and 15th level, the game should switch over to domain management.

That's the credo I've sworn by since I was a kid trying to make sense of the D&D RC (and catching flak for preferring it to AD&D 2e). However, from a marketing perspective, it seems to be what most people want, or at least expect, from high-level play; at least since AD&D 2e.

Did 1e ever get official for building and running strongholds and the domains around them? I know AD&D 1e started its life as a tournament-oriented ruleset, so it was never a design goal, but I think it ended up being the most popular version of D&D in its "fad" phase. I have a pet theory that if domain-level play was featured more proeminently in 1e, the idea might have gained more traction in later editions.

Quote from: The Butcher;588809Did 1e ever get official for building and running strongholds and the domains around them?

Not really.  It just has classes getting followers at 9th-ish level and some stuff for building a castle.  Nothing for actually running a domain.

Quote from: The Butcher;588809That's the credo I've sworn by since I was a kid trying to make sense of the D&D RC (and catching flak for preferring it to AD&D 2e). However, from a marketing perspective, it seems to be what most people want, or at least expect, from high-level play; at least since AD&D 2e.

I have had a copy of the RC floating around on my hard drive for ages, and I have yet to really sit down and read it.  As I understand, though, it has some really good domain management stuff, which I will be looking into when I start cobbling some rules together.

QuoteDid 1e ever get official for building and running strongholds and the domains around them? I know AD&D 1e started its life as a tournament-oriented ruleset, so it was never a design goal, but I think it ended up being the most popular version of D&D in its "fad" phase. I have a pet theory that if domain-level play was featured more proeminently in 1e, the idea might have gained more traction in later editions.

Quote from: Old One Eye;588812Not really.  It just has classes getting followers at 9th-ish level and some stuff for building a castle.  Nothing for actually running a domain.

One Eye's got it.  There are some pretty detailed rules for building and outfitting a castle, but that is about where it ends.  I figure Uncle Gary assumed the rest would take care of itself, or people didn't need rules for treaties and international negotiations the same way they didn't need rules for talking to the stableboy or haggling with a merchant.

I think you're right, though.  Emphasis on that phase in AD&D would have set a precedent for an improved game in later editions.

Quote from: StormBringer;588829I have had a copy of the RC floating around on my hard drive for ages, and I have yet to really sit down and read it.  As I understand, though, it has some really good domain management stuff, which I will be looking into when I start cobbling some rules together.

The rules are good, but right now I'd point you towards ACKS, which revises, streamlines and builds upon the Companion/RC domain system.

And if either's too much crunch, there's always An Echo Resounding.

Quote from: StormBringer;588829One Eye's got it.  There are some pretty detailed rules for building and outfitting a castle, but that is about where it ends.  I figure Uncle Gary assumed the rest would take care of itself, or people didn't need rules for treaties and international negotiations the same way they didn't need rules for talking to the stableboy or haggling with a merchant.

I think you're right, though.  Emphasis on that phase in AD&D would have set a precedent for an improved game in later editions.

Just as I imagined; I remember the class descriptions mentioning followers and strongholds, but there's no guidelines for actually running a domain game. It's like you were expected to attract followers, build a stronghold... and then nothing. I guess the widely held assumption was that you continued adventuring using your castle as a base or something.

I don't think you need hard and fast rules for the politics of rulership, BTW (at least I don't think I want them), but I think there's a fun mini-game to be had in emulating certain aspects of running a domain, especially with regards to economics. It's really cool for the local lord to take up arms against the dragon ravaging the countryside because he's Lawful Good and it's the right thing to do; sometimes, though, he's a Chaotic Neutral douche who's doing it because his revenues are plummeting, his trade routes have dried up and the peasants are nearing revolt.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;588708Biggest reason why Next playtest needs to go to higher levels?

...because every edition of D&D has been terribly broken at higher levels, perhaps save 1E. But it's a dinosaur, and not really fit for consumption without a lot of houseruling.

Quote from: The Butcher;588856The rules are good, but right now I'd point you towards ACKS, which revises, streamlines and builds upon the Companion/RC domain system.

And if either's too much crunch, there's always An Echo Resounding.

Well, it sounds like I have no excuses left to hold off buying ACKS, and a solid endorsement to boot.  Crunch doesn't bother me, most of that can be obfuscated so the players don't have to deal with it.

QuoteJust as I imagined; I remember the class descriptions mentioning followers and strongholds, but there's no guidelines for actually running a domain game. It's like you were expected to attract followers, build a stronghold... and then nothing. I guess the widely held assumption was that you continued adventuring using your castle as a base or something.

I think that was a reasonable extrapolation from the noted lack of even mentioning domain related guidelines or actions.

QuoteI don't think you need hard and fast rules for the politics of rulership, BTW (at least I don't think I want them), but I think there's a fun mini-game to be had in emulating certain aspects of running a domain, especially with regards to economics. It's really cool for the local lord to take up arms against the dragon ravaging the countryside because he's Lawful Good and it's the right thing to do; sometimes, though, he's a Chaotic Neutral douche who's doing it because his revenues are plummeting, his trade routes have dried up and the peasants are nearing revolt.

Excellent examples.

I would be satisfied with something like a 'Pendragon lite' yearly events chart would be a good starting point, with guidelines on expanding the events based on the campaign.  Perhaps 2-5 major events per year -  disease outbreak, food shortage, humanoids on the borders -  each taking 2wks to a month to resolve.  Some chance that one of the events spawns a related sub-event.  Another dozen or so minor events, like visiting troubadours or merchant disputes, with the possibility of evolving into a major event or spawning another minor event or two.  A larger general events list, a couple of smaller ones for each class over several categories; financial, resources, military and so on.

Just spit-balling, but I think it could largely be wrapped up in less than a half-dozen pages, with perhaps another dozen to detail the rules and advice... Shouldn't be too difficult.

Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;588857...because every edition of D&D has been terribly broken at higher levels, perhaps save 1E. But it's a dinosaur, and not really fit for consumption without a lot of houseruling.

Well to be honest 4e didn't really have this problem. It wasn't "broken" as much as just more of the same bland stuff with bigger numbers. But as for the rest I definitely agree. Please for all that's holy at least try to playtest stuff above 15th level.

An echo resounding has excellent resource management rules.  I almost wish Kevin would compile all his fantasy sandbox stuff he has floating around in different products and release it as a standalone toolbox (I compiled on my own actually).  Nifty nifty material.

Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;588857...because every edition of D&D has been terribly broken at higher levels, perhaps save 1E. But it's a dinosaur, and not really fit for consumption without a lot of houseruling.

And yet I somehow managed to run a very successful RC D&D campaign where characters made it up to 36th level...

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