Quote from: _kent_;586132Can you describe your secret door from 'Fane of Poisoned Prophecies' in more (not necessarily full) detail?

Sure. Based on what I said already, some of the detail might be obvious from the back cover illustration, shown here:
http://www.chaotichenchmen.com/2009/01/fane-of-poisoned-prophecies.html

(Note: that goes to one of the promotional pages for the module, so don't go there if you don't like that stuff. It's the only place I have handy that shows the back cover illustration.)

To begin with (assuming you want to go through the "door"), you need to make the realization that it's a "door" of sorts. And then you need to figure out how to go through the "door", when it's appropriate to do so, etc.

More details:

Spoiler

The spire (that thrusts upward from the top of the circular ziggurat on the back cover) is a magical staircase to the moon. This is pretty strongly alluded to in various places within the complex (e.g., if you get near the spire itself, it's quite clearly a staircase), and there are occupants of the complex who know of it, and who could reveal some details if they're not ... ahem ... put to the sword, etc.. It only works at specific times, which are potentially determinable via trial and error. And it doesn't always function correctly, although there are clues about this, and puzzle-like means for correcting the disfunction in a couple places in the module.

The "door" itself is a relatively small part of the module. The module is fully playable even the group never even investigates the door.

Quote from: Vile;586130That's a stupid word, and even more stupid when used in relation to pen and paper. I'm just going to pretend it doesn't exist.

man I wish I could .sig that.  Especially in relation to that word.  And especially given the origins of that word.

Great thread Kent!

I always liked the example in the AD&D DMG Page 99:

[Players have a clue that there should be a way out of a room they've arrived at from a smudged map they found]

DM: The place seems to be about where the blotched area is, but there are no passageways out of it.

LC: Let's tap along that south wall, especially in the center 30' to see if it sounds hollow.  The cleric, gnome, and halfling will do the tapping, while the magic-user and I watch back the way we came.

DM: (Rolling a few dice behind the screen several times, knowing that tapping won't show anything here, as the secret door is 10' above the floor: ) "The entire wall sounds VERY solid.  You spend a full 10 minutes throughly checking, even to the far east and west, and all three are convinced that it is not hollow beyond.  However, the gnome, who you placed in the middle, noted some strange holes in the wall.  These were square places cut into the natural stone, each about half a foot per side, and and a bit deeper.  There were two at the 20' and two at the 30' line, 1 above the other, the lower at about 3', and the higher at about 6'.  He found some small splinters of wood in one.

OC: "Does the smudged area [on the map] give us any clue as to what the holes could be for? Let's feel around inside them to see if there are levers or catches or something..."

LC: "Yes.  Look at the map, and carefully check those holes with daggers first - we don't want to lose fingers or hands!" (When all that comes to naught: ) "Can anyone thing of why there would be wood splinters in the holes? That must be some sort of a clue!"

OC: "The only thing I can think of is that the holes are sockets for some sort of wooden construction -"

LC: "Sure! How about a ramp or stairs? How high is the ceiling in this place?"

DM: Oh, it must be at least 25' or more."

LC: Let's for a human pyramid and see if there's a secret door higher up on the wall - right here in the center where the passage seems to go on southwards.  I'll form the base, and the rest of you help the gnome and the halfling up, and hold them there (use the pole!), while they tap.  What do they discover?

DM: "The halfling at the top of the stack has a 1 in 6 chance of slipping and bringing you all down."  (A roll of 4 follows, so: ) "But it doesn't happen, and both the gnome and the halfling manage a few taps, and even that feeble work seems to indicate some sort of space beyond."

LC: "Let's change the plan a bit.  The cleric and I will hoist the gnome up and hold his legs firmly while he checks around for some way to open the secret door.  Meanwhile, the halfling and the magic-user will guard the entrance so that we won't be attacked by surprise by some monster while thus engaged."

DM: "You accomplish the shuffle, and let's see if anything comes - " (A d6 roll for wandering monsters again gives a negative result. )  "The guards see nothing, and what is the gnome doing now?"

OC: (The gnome): "I'll scan the stone first to see if there are marks or some operating device evident."

DM: "Some stone projections seem rather sooth, as if worn by use.  That's all you are able to note."

OC: "Then I'll see if I can move any of the stone knobs and see if they operate a secret door! I'll push, pull, twist, turn, slide, or otherwise attempt to trigger the thing if possible."

DM: "The fist-sized projections move inwards and there is a grinding sound, and a 10' X 10' section of the wall, 10' above the floor in the center part, swings inward to the right."

OC: "(The gnome: ) 'I'll pull myself up into the passage revealed, and then I'll see if I can drive a spike and secure my rope to it, so I can throw the free end down to the others."

DM: "You get up all right, and there is a crack where you can pound in a spike.  As you're doing it you might be in for a nasty surprise, so I'll let you roll a six-sider for me to see your status - make the roll! (Groans as a 1 comes up indicating surprise.  The DM then rolls 3 attacks for the ghoul that grabbed at the busy gnome, and one claw attack does 2 damage and paralyzes the hapless character, whereupon the DM judges that the other 3 would rend him to bits.  However, the DM does NOT tell the players what has happened, despite impassioned please and urgent demands.  He simply relates: ) "You see a sickly gray arm strike the gnome as he's working on the spike, the gnome utters a muffled cry, and then a shadowy form drags hum out of sight.  What are you others going to do?"

LC: "Ready weapons and missiles, the magic-user her magic-missile spell, and watch the opening."

DM: "You hear some nasty rending noises and gobbling sounds, but they end quickly.  Now you see a group of gray-colored human-like creatures with long, dirt-and blood-encrusted nails, and teeth bloodied and bared, coming to the opening.  As they come to the edge you detect a charnel smell coming from them - 4 of them, in fact."

Quote from: thedungeondelver;586142man I wish I could .sig that.  Especially in relation to that word.  And especially given the origins of that word.

Heh, go right ahead, DD.

Quote from: Vile;586130That's a stupid word, and even more stupid when used in relation to pen and paper. I'm just going to pretend it doesn't exist.

You can shove your fingers in your ears and say "Lalalalalalala! I can't hear you!" all you want, but you cannot deny the existance of the concept in RPGs!

Yes, it would take a dick DM. However, it is a sign of a dick DM to allow a secret door that only opens / is found when the PCs do a certain action. Usually without any clues as to what that action is!

I'm not disputing the concept. It's the completely irrelevant word I take issue with.

Quote from: Vile;586186I'm not disputing the concept. It's the completely irrelevant word I take issue with.

How can the word be irrelevant when it perfectly encapsulates the concept?

I've never come across a pixel on a tabletop.

Quote from: _kent_;586127That is visually interesting but here is a question for you. In some movies and computer games secret doors are really puzzle doors presenting an unmistakable if difficult challenge. But shouldn't secret doors be anonymous, mundane and invisible no matter how grand the vistas beyond? At least if I was an architect that is how I would design them.
.

This is a great point often over looked. You have a load of clues that lead to some complex dodad and a encrypted key and a riddle etc etc .... If you were building a scret door the real questions are
i) how often is it accessed - if its often then the mechanism needs to be simply accessible and the signs of use need to be hidden. So Jeff's passwall perhaps with a tigger word? is an ideal solution if you have the magic. If its the door to a great tomb that is concealed to bind the great demon or whatever then build a fucking big wall over it like they did with the pyramids.
ii) what technology, including magic did the architech have to work with - if magic is common then a magical secret door may well be cheaper and easier to construct than a complex system of sliding stones counterweighted to fractions of a gram
iii) how is it reset - if the door relies on 2 tons of sand pouring through a grating to shift it then once opened it will stay open. If it does not reset then its either open or its never been open in which case why not hide it behind a real stone wall.

One of my favourite secret doors I build was a hole. a little channel 1/2" wide 10 feet long through stone. The person that built it had a ring of geseous form and so no other form of exit or egress were necessary. The PCs took 4 days to tunnel through it

Quote from: jeff37923;586183You can shove your fingers in your ears and say "Lalalalalalala! I can't hear you!" all you want, but you cannot deny the existance of the concept in RPGs!

Yes, it would take a dick DM. However, it is a sign of a dick DM to allow a secret door that only opens / is found when the PCs do a certain action. Usually without any clues as to what that action is!

That depends though right becuase that might be exactly how you would build a secret door if you were actually building one.

Let's assume that the dwarf king has a secret library where he keeps his engravings of elven maidens cavorting in the forest. If he wants to keep it actually secret he may well disguise the entry mechanism. If the party turn up 100 years later then they won't find clues about how he gets in I mean why woudl he leave clues ? was he gettign senile ? did he secretly want the queen to walk in on him one day when he was enjoying the spendors of Galadriel nekkid ?

Why is the door there? who uses it ? how often? for what purpose?

Quote from: _kent_;586125I don't know what 'solving the adventure' means.

I think it is perfectly legitimate for the discovery of a secret door alone to allow access to the more intriguing or wonderful regions of a castle/dungeon/city/palace. In that case I think it is a duty for the DM to elicit descriptions from the players of their search methods rather than rely merely on dice.

I believe that each gaming session has a purpose and that the players and GM should agree on that purpose.  Secret doors can then be good or bad depending on what that purpose is...

Scenario A - Players expect to be given a task, go out and resolve the conflict, return and spend the treasure.

In this situation, placing the only method of resolution behind a secret door is a dangerous idea, just as any other method of puzzle use would be.

Justin Alexander already explained this better than I could, so maybe go check this out...

Scenario B - Players expect to explore a space sandbox style, and if they cannot make progress in an area, they will simply move on.

This makes secret door use much more acceptable.  In fact, in a megadungeon, for example, they will probably be back to the area later, and may find the door then.

Scenario C - The GM likes to make the players dance, and enjoys seeing them quiver under the sheer intellect of his designs.

I played under a guy like this once.  It was a lot of fun, but again we all knew the expectations going in.

Quote from: jeff37923;586187How can the word be irrelevant when it perfectly encapsulates the concept?

Actually, both parts of the word are bad.

Pixels imply 1990's era gaming.  On my new screen (1920 x 1080) I can't really see the pixels any more.  My kids arent' really going to know what they are, because they're not used to 8-bit graphics.  My first video game was an Atari, where PacMan's lips were each one pixel wide, so the concept makes sense to me.  Going forward, it wouldn't work.  Likewise, try going back to 1974 and explaining to Gygax what a pixel is.  So in the past it didn't really work either.  'Pixel' in an RPG context had a brief chance to be relevant, but we're on the downhill slide of that chance, for sure.

Bitching is also completely invalid.  To me, when you have a right to be upset, you're complaining.  Bitching is reserved for illegitimate complaints, as a synonym for whining and moaning.  But if you need the princess, and she is bound behind a single secret door that you cannot find, that's a problem with the adventure design.  So suggesting that there be more than one 'pixel' worth of information to find her and save her life is a complaint, not bitching at all.

Make sense?

Quote from: mcbobbo;586238Make sense?

Nope.

Quote from: Vile;586192I've never come across a pixel on a tabletop.

Nice to see that literal-mindedness has not yet died out.

Quote from: jeff37923;586254Nope.

I'll have to assume you're being facetious since you didn't offer even one rebuttal...