Quote from: KenHR;586745This.  I've never played with anyone who used the find secret doors roll to indicate that not only was a secret door's presence detected, but the manner of opening was discovered, too.  I'm pretty sure that's borne out in just about any play example published by TSR.

It depends on the door. if the mechanism is near the door in question I would only use one roll. But if the opening mechanism is out of sight you would only get the information there was a door there.

Likewise if the way to open the door was not mechanical in nature (i.e. required a magic word or some such) you would not get the word or indeed that a word was required just because you noticed the door was there.

Quote from: Benoist;587267I double-checked. You're right. I must have mixed up with the 1-in-6 chance for smaller/lighter characters to open doors.

I had to double-check it myself because, when you said it, I thought, "That makes perfect sense."

Quote from: Justin Alexander;587139To sum up Kent's position:

(1) He likes to use game dynamics that reward and encourage people to do things that aren't fun.

(2) If people actually do the things he is rewarding and encouraging, he insults them.

Despite this, he has the gall to claim that other people are socially maladjusted.

Before presenting your inept summary you quoted me saying the following:

"As far as I have seen players will only check for secret doors in desperation, in suspicion or after deduction. 'Every.Single.Room.' would be cretinous and boring." In case you could not imagine what i meant by 'in desperation'  I was referring to a party trapped or cornered in an area of a dungeon looking desperately for some escape route.

(1) "game dynamics", "reward" and "encourage" are irrelevant to anything I have said. What I did say say is "As far as I have seen players will ... ". That is, players are the driving force in how they deal with the potential presence of secret doors. I have also repeatedly said that whether players find secret places or not, at all times they a surfeit of opportunities for exploration. If their ambitions are thwarted in one direction they go some place else. They are not children and do not get their way all the time.

(2) I am primarily insulting DMs who promote or allow autistic, mindlessly repetitive mundane activity from their players. I would never insult my players because I have only ever gamed with friends.

The point of the thread was to see how others at the gametable manage the search for something that was designed not to be found. I think searching for secrets, and managing illusions and wishes are three prominent examples of aspects of DMing which lay bare a DM's style and competence.

You are obviously not a stupid person so I have to assume from your comments you are dishonest and vindictive.

Quote from: _kent_;587402You are obviously not a stupid person so I have to assume from your comments you are dishonest and vindictive.

You, OTOH, appear to be all three. And are not worth my time.

("When I said that the players are cretinous and boring, I was, of course, primarily referring to the DM." You crack me up, incompetent dude.)

Quote from: Justin Alexander;587360I had to double-check it myself because, when you said it, I thought, "That makes perfect sense."

Agreed. Hehe.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;587482And are not worth my time.

Not worth your time? Your blog and your typical forum posts are so laborious and long winded that, if anything, you have far too much time for holding forth about rpgs because you can't get work as an actor, or you've given up on the pompous idea of 'translating' plays from languages you admit you have no understanding of, you fraudulent quack.

You are also the cliche of the arts student with no technical background who is seduced by the glamour of scientific thinking into a juvenile and misplaced mimicry of analysis on inappropriate subjects.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;587482("When I said that the players are cretinous and boring, I was, of course, primarily referring to the DM." You crack me up, incompetent dude.)

I said the process of mindlessly searching every room was cretinous and the DM is responsible for the manner (d6 or verbal) in which secret doors are searched for - which is exactly point of this thread, you fucking moron.

I threw you a bone earlier when I said you weren't stupid because I sensed you were vain and I thought you would slink off. I won't make that mistake again.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;587139Re: Secret doors. One of my favorite tricks is to put them in pit traps.

Oh I like that, though it calls into question who was using that door for regular travel.  Unless you're saying it's a secret door put there to check on victims of the trap, which makes some sense.

Quote from: Mistwell;588190Oh I like that, though it calls into question who was using that door for regular travel.  Unless you're saying it's a secret door put there to check on victims of the trap, which makes some sense.

Or if the pit is some step on the way to a very well-hidden treasury or something.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;588529Or if the pit is some step on the way to a very well-hidden treasury or something.

RPGPundit

I usually find that kind of thing a bit artificial, unless there's a good reason for the pit to connect to a treasury.
Here's my take:
The pit was originally a trap door, meant to be used as a secret (or not) entrance to the treasury. Centuries later, the latch and hinges have rusted through, and the wood is eaten through by beetles, termites, and fungus. Good luck to anyone as steps on it in the dark.

A secret door I've used:
Here is a long-abandoned throne room. At one end is a jewelled throne upon a dais. In front of the dais, where a petitioner would stand to request a boon, the floor is decorated with a mosaic of semiprecious stones. Close inspection will reveal seams in the floor between certain mosaic tiles, tracing out a 10'x10' square split into four triangles.
Several jewels upon the throne are clearly buttons to be pressed. The emerald on the left armrest would make the throne rise into the air dramatically, were the hydraulics still intact. The ruby on the right armrest opens the pit trap underneath the mosaic. The other gems have other functions, or did.
The pit contains the skeletal remains of three carnivorous apes and of their last victim. A few tatters of clothing, and scattered jewelry remain. A barred door to the East leads to the quarters of the Apes' keeper, several jail cells, and a stairway up to the royal guards' quarters. One of those cells could contain a ghost with useful information.

I dunno, just imagine that there's a room that is supposed to be a treasure room; it has a pit trap and a few scattered coins; giving all the impression that the place has already been looted.
Now, some would be tomb-robbers might suspect that this could be a false treasury, and that there's some secret one hidden nearby; but the trick is that you have to climb down into the pit, and then find a secret door there to access the real treasury; its the one place people would be least likely to look.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;589108I dunno, just imagine that there's a room that is supposed to be a treasure room; it has a pit trap and a few scattered coins; giving all the impression that the place has already been looted.
Now, some would be tomb-robbers might suspect that this could be a false treasury, and that there's some secret one hidden nearby; but the trick is that you have to climb down into the pit, and then find a secret door there to access the real treasury; its the one place people would be least likely to look.

RPGPundit

I think that's a solid idea, and I can see it in an Indiana Jones sort of way

Quote from: Mistwell;588190Oh I like that, though it calls into question who was using that door for regular travel.  Unless you're saying it's a secret door put there to check on victims of the trap, which makes some sense.

Checking the trap is a good example. If you're in some sort of tomb, this could also be a good way to disguise the worker's tunnel. (Although, in that case, it's more likely to be a concealed door that got bricked up or plastered over when the tomb was sealed.)

It could also be deliberately designed that way as an escape route. (Much like the floor panels of the Millennium Falcon could be pried up, albeit to slightly different purpose.) In that case, you might expect a secondary triggering mechanism for the pit and a ladder built into the pit's side (which might tip people off that there's more to this pit than there appears).

The Tomb of Horrors thread reminded me how utterly devious the "secret door behind what appears to be a false door" is, too. (Although, based on my experience, you need to anticipate that the players will never, ever find that door unless you allow them to approach it from the other side.)

Quote from: Mistwell;588190Oh I like that, though it calls into question who was using that door for regular travel.  Unless you're saying it's a secret door put there to check on victims of the trap, which makes some sense.

I do this sometimes when I want to make something extra secret.  
My last online session involved the 2 thiefs of the group (one PC and one NPC) finding a set of hinges in a stairwell. they looked around to try to figure out what it did, but could not, and kept going (they missed a mechanical understanding roll while describing various and sundry workings with it), and the next 10' section of stairs swung out from under them...they both made their reflex rolls (suffering minor bumps and scratches from diving down the stairs), but after seeing a few still skeletal figures, the group looked around and found the pges going down, and the hidden passage, leading to a staircase up and around to a carved out ledge in an underground river...
and then one of the pcs got clever and searched that ledge, and found another panel that moved...and continued moving through secret corridors, beneath the noses of the gnolls above...