TheRPGSite

Quick thought while I'm briefly able to log in.

Like many people, I used to have tons of time but not much money.  Now I'm in my late 30s I'm pretty good for money, but my time is fubared.

Back when I had time but no money we played kickass d&d campaigns or CoC or stuff like that, we prized value.  A book that gave us tons of potential play with all the time we had for very little cost because we didn't have much money.

Time moves on, I get older and fatter, now I have far less time.  But, I have far more money.

So, I don't think that's uncommon actually.  And I think in these terms you don't even need that much money to have far more than when you were a kid, a typical middle class income is way more than most have during adolescence or early 20s.

So what do you do with all that money but hardly any time with which to game?

People substitute, displacement activities, they buy glossier books with higher production qualities that look great on the shelf and are enjoyable to read.  They may not actually play with them much, but this kind of gamer has the money to pay for a quality product even if not much opportunity to make actual use of it.

So, my hypothesis is that older gamers will tend (not all incidentally, tend as a group, if you struggle with statistics one of the older gamers here can explain what this means) to buy higher end stuff in part because they can and in part as a substitute for play (which doesn't mean they don't play at all, just not as much as they'd like).  Younger gamers go more for stuff like Palladium where you get far more bang for your buck even if it doesn't always look that great.

D&D incidentally, once you have the three core books, could keep you going for an entire lifetime, but D&D taps into other factors that don't quite apply here in the same way so it does admittedly buck this trend, but with other rpgs that aren't as successful (all of them in other words) I think this may be a real issue.

Couple it with an aging demographic, and you get a strong financial incentive for designers/publishers to produce high production value games that may get little or even no actual play, because as the demographic average shifts up agewise that's where the bulk of the hobby increasingly lies (that and they're the ones spending most of the cash anyway).

Thoughts?

Thought #1: Good to "see" you--your presence is missed.

Thought #2: What you're thinking of--the AEG model for short--is a thing of the 90s, I'd say. Right now, in 2007, publishing of any (non-D&D) RPG material at all, not to mention high-end stuff, has narrowed down to a trickle.

There IS some glossy stuff out or due out. But you have to get Reign from Lulu, not from a regular publisher, because those aren't doing books like Reign  anymore. With Septimus WEG are taking a considerable risk. Qin is a French product. Sales of these three will be insignificant in the greater scheme of things.

I may be online occasionally in the evenings for the next few weeks.  People need to discuss gaming more here, I still lurk even when I can't log in and discussions about rpg.net bore me to tears.

Otherwise, AEG was the supplement treadmill model at its apogee, but high end glossy books are still with us.  Most releases from what we laughably tend to call major companies are now full colour hardback whether the game line is on the treadmill or not and that to me is a factor of the demographics.

Off for tonight, have fun y'all.

Yup, absolutely correct. This is what I've been saying for ages now.

RPGPundit

I don't think it's aging, so much as "collecting vs. playing".  If the RPG book is just gonna be there to collect dust an look pretty, then yeah, producion values are gonna matter.

But I just got the Classic Traveller reprint for the first time, and it has to be one of the coolest books I've ever bought, despite it being nothing but stark black and white text with no pictures to speak of save a few diagrams.

But that's because I'm seeing it for the gameplay tool it is, and for the fun those rules provide me.

I dunno -

Wargame rulebooks tend to be big, glossy things these days, and I think games workshop sells most of its shit to The Kids. 'Most of the people in the hobby now have only been in it for less than a year' and all that.

The big, glossy pictures are a real draw. I know I love looking at the cool minis in GW codexes or Flames of War books.

Sure, it's aspirational - you see the cool pictures and want to get some of that, but I'm not sure it's a replacement as such.

Except - I don't see the aging  of the hobby.

 I meet plenty of YOUNG , newish gamers every day where I work.
 Including that redheaded 19 year old DM , who was buying Cityscape. (mentioned her in a post that I self-censored myself on.)

 If I had to estimate - the average age of gamers at our store is between 23 and 28.


- Ed C.

It certainly makes sense. Though I have a bit of a twist to add.

I sure know that as a teenagers, one thing we had which IMO was really conducive to fun was...boredom. With nothing to do, having anything at all to do was such a blessing it was easy as pie to get a bunch of boys together on an afternoon. These days even kids have so much that they're bored with everything.

But to be honest as a reader I don't get much from glossiness or hardcover production. Nevertheless various people have said that hardcover/full color makes a big difference in sales, and I don't doubt what they say. I just think it's sort of the other way around: middle-aged gamers have more money, so the publishers charge more and then, perhaps by way of justification, they add in the flashy production and pad out the text.

I remember just how cool I thought big pretty books like Rogue Trader, Ars Magica (3rd) and WFRP were when I was a kid. I don't see much reason for it to be different these days.

Quote from: BalbinusMost releases from what we laughably tend to call major companies are now full colour hardback.

It'd take an insane amount of googling to disprove this, but I bet in terms of sheer numbers those releases are a fraction of what they were five years ago.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityIt'd take an insane amount of googling to disprove this, but I bet in terms of sheer numbers those releases are a fraction of what they were five years ago.

Just on gut feeling I'd say I would agree.  Only WotC seems to crank out the sheer volume of releases that once were expected of any "major" RPG company.

Not even WW, who used to be more notorious for splatdump than almost anyone else.

Quote from: KoltarExcept - I don't see the aging  of the hobby.

 I meet plenty of YOUNG , newish gamers every day where I work.
 Including that redheaded 19 year old DM , who was buying Cityscape. (mentioned her in a post that I self-censored myself on.)

 If I had to estimate - the average age of gamers at our store is between 23 and 28.


- Ed C.

Well, that's promising, anyways.

RPGPundit

Personally, I don't like cheap-ass, black-and-white books with low production values. I like the glossy hardcovers. They make me happy. :)

My sweet spot is the square-bound paperbacks with B&W interior illustrations and good, functional layout. E.g., Chaosium Elric!, Talislanta 2/3e, James Bond 007, Dragonquest 2e, Harnmaster 1e. AD&D 1e-style hardbound is also good. The stuff I've seen with D&D 3e, Buffy, various WW corebooks: totally unnecessary and even in many cases detracts from functionality.

I've also seen some pretty lame production in both paperback & hardback. The Riddle of Steel springs to mind--inelegant layout, incongruous mix of graphics (some of which aren't bad). If it hadn't gotten a lot of attention (mostly praise and controversy from its indie-cred), I'd have passed it over as just another mediocre "heartbreaker".

All that said, I really wish I hadn't sold my copy of Stormbringer 3e. What was I thinking?

The Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 2e corebook is my idea of a great book. It's a hardcover book produced in color, with nice layout, decent organization, and sweet art. I measure other books against this one.

And all rpgs should have an index! Any rpg book without an index screams "Amateur Hour!" to me....:pundit:

I would like more books the size and shape of the Burning Empires book, but with better binding. The smaller, novel-cum-brick style really appeals to me. I find it much easier to carry around. I haven't played BE around the tabletop yet, but I often find my group having a problem fitting everything on the table we play around - D&D hardbacks, miniatures, dice, counters, initiative count, battlemap, drinks, rulers, etc. Space is at a premium and I'd prefer books with an economical physical presence.

I do like colour and hardbacks, I'll admit, but I'd also like to see more oversize paperback books in B&W - Dover editions for RPG (bonus points if they're as beautifully made as a Dover edition).

Quote from: PseudoephedrineI would like more books the size and shape of the Burning Empires book, but with better binding. The smaller, novel-cum-brick style really appeals to me. I find it much easier to carry around. I haven't played BE around the tabletop yet, but I often find my group having a problem fitting everything on the table we play around - D&D hardbacks, miniatures, dice, counters, initiative count, battlemap, drinks, rulers, etc. Space is at a premium and I'd prefer books with an economical physical presence.

I do like colour and hardbacks, I'll admit, but I'd also like to see more oversize paperback books in B&W - Dover editions for RPG (bonus points if they're as beautifully made as a Dover edition).

After seeing the Traveller basic book reprint in hand, and considering the small size ASID is likely to be, I've been strongly considering going with a smaller digest size for the book.

I'm not such a fan for it with particularly large books though.  BESM2 was really awkward because of it.  The Manga size combined with the high page count made it rather awkward to keep open at all.

That's why you've got to go for the Dover-style lay-flat binding. Makes consultation much easier, and you don't have to break the spine.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineThat's why you've got to go for the Dover-style lay-flat binding. Makes consultation much easier, and you don't have to break the spine.

Sadly my print service, thanks to my complete lack of financial backing, is going to consist of Lulu, which leaves me with perfect-bound, or spiral bound options.

The latter has always been a tempting option to me, but the negative effect on the life of the product always makes me nervous.  It just seems like a good spiral bound would make reference usage even easier, so long as it's done well.

I suppose there's nothing stopping me from offering both.

Quote from: BalbinusSo what do you do with all that money but hardly any time with which to game?

For myself, I'm still pretty cash-conscious and haven't been sucked into buying every glossy splatbook out there. Actually, I think that I've gotten the most bang for my buck out of the now discontinued Legend & Lairs line of products from Fantasy Flight Games. Those books were underpriced for their value.

I work at a job that allows me about 9 hours a night of solitude in which I can write or read when its quiet. After doing some research into the financial aspect of it, I've decided to start a small publishing company for d20 system product. The business licenses have been taken care of and I just have to complete writing up the first one and buy some appropriate art for it. With that, Studio Cat will be in business.

Why am I doing this? Just to see if I can. I don't expect to make a lot of money out of it, but its been a fun experience so far. Although, sometimes I have to admit that I've got to be out of my mind to do this.

Quote from: Sacrificial LambPersonally, I don't like cheap-ass, black-and-white books with low production values. I like the glossy hardcovers. They make me happy. :)

Bah, glossy hardcovers don't equal high quality. Give me a well-designed B&W book anyday, over something that has cluttered design, distracting background textures, and reads like it was edited by a dyslexic chimpanzee. I know beautiful books. I collect beautiful books. Let me tell you, most RPG books are butt-ugly, and the only ones uglier than the crappiest home-made 1970s manuals are the over-produced colour ones that make the kids go ooh-aah.

Bah, I say.

TheShadow

Quote from: Sacrificial LambThe Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 2e corebook is my idea of a great book. It's a hardcover book produced in color, with nice layout, decent organization, and sweet art. I measure other books against this one.

SUre, it's nice, but it's a tad expensive when you look at page count. That's my only gripe with the book. It's not the setting or the system - it's the page count.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineI would like more books the size and shape of the Burning Empires book, but with better binding. The smaller, novel-cum-brick style really appeals to me. I find it much easier to carry around. I haven't played BE around the tabletop yet, but I often find my group having a problem fitting everything on the table we play around - D&D hardbacks, miniatures, dice, counters, initiative count, battlemap, drinks, rulers, etc. Space is at a premium and I'd prefer books with an economical physical presence.

I do like colour and hardbacks, I'll admit, but I'd also like to see more oversize paperback books in B&W - Dover editions for RPG (bonus points if they're as beautifully made as a Dover edition).

This is why I love the Mongoose Pocket D20 rulebooks - they're nice and small and cut all the fluff text to get to the meat of the system, so they're really useful as a quick-reference at the table.

Balbinus, your OP describes my buying habits to a T, at least when I'm not actively playing a game.

Koltar, are those younger gamers buying slick hardcovers?  Are they all D&D players?

Funny enough I've recently purchased a few new books: Artesia, Splicers and L5R 3E.

Splicers is the one I've read the most on--classic Palladium of course with some decent, some terrible black and whiter art. (I really don't like the look of the bio-organic stuff, I wanted more Guyveresque not "slime encrusted" which some of the art tends to) but the games ideas have me more revved than Artesia or L5R (Despite wanting to run a different setting AND system, it still is a strong inspiration)

Pretty game books are nice to go "oooh, aaah." but I generally like game books I consult when making characters then shut and don't need again during play for the most part. This makes all that high quality art a bit out of place. (Never mind that some games these days are eye hurtingly ugly because to me of the art--Weapons of the Gods..)

I think I fit the bill here too. :)  Like many, I find myself with abundant money nowadays.  And, the older I get, the nicer it is to just hang out in a bookstore and have coffee with my fiancee.  She reads wedding magazines, and I stroll over to see if there are any new gaming books I can look at. :)

I buy gaming books nowadays as both supplement for gaming and as my magazines.  When I'm sitting around, not doing much, with the TV on, I like to crack open a gaming book and read bits & pieces.

Now, I do still get to game 1/week, plus a 1/month game I run for out of town friends; but reading the books I have keeps me in the mood a little better.

This is why I prefer books with good art and good flavor text.  WotC is, quite simply, outstanding in this area - best in the field, as far as I'm concerned.  This is also why stripped-down games leave me a little cold (MRQ, I'm looking at you!)

I find long works of fiction in gaming books very painful to read (*cough* white wolf *cough*) but I love having a few paragraphs of filler & flavor to kickstart my imagination.

-O

Quote from: jrientsBalbinus, your OP describes my buying habits to a T, at least when I'm not actively playing a game.

Koltar, are those younger gamers buying slick hardcovers?  Are they all D&D players?

 They are mostly buying D&D/D20books.
 
HOWEVER, when they realize that I GM an ongoing game and they ask which game system  I use  - they actually give GURPS a look and take a copy of GURPS Lite with them.

 Almost forgot , one of the most gorgeous  gamers we have is young (22 or 23) brunette and she plays GURPS.

 The DM this past week ? She was VERY attractive redhead , wearing glasses, who is thinking about joining either the Marines or Army right now.


- Ed C.

I guess my buying tendencies are going away from hardback full color books.  Besides the Rules Cyclopedia, Star Wars D20, D&D 3.5, and Burning Empires all of my books are black and white paperbacks.  I prefer a variety of self contained paper back games than the core book style of D&D for the simple reason of having more games that take up less room.  I also stopped buying supplements a long time ago.  Thank you for that Rifts and 2nd ed. AD&D.

I wasn't just talking about the supplement treadmill.

Take the major companies.

Atlas, hardback, generally with colour art.

Eden, full colour hardback.

White Wolf, black and white glossy, hardback

Gurps, full colour hardback

Hero, full colour but unusually softback

DnD, full colour hardback

Mongoose, full colour hardback

Even new entrants such as HEX or Qin, full colour hardback.

Most major releases these days are full colour hardback, whether part of a supplement chain or not.

Quote from: Jason CoplenSUre, it's nice, but it's a tad expensive when you look at page count. That's my only gripe with the book. It's not the setting or the system - it's the page count.

I'm at peace with that, because it's high quality. I'm willing to shell out the big bucks for quality. WFRP 2e has that in spades.