What do you think about it?
What is cool about it?
How do the mechanics work/differ from other OSR/Retroclone type games?
How is the magic system?
What doesn't quite work for you?
Boxed set of PDF? (I'm poor.)
Okay first, we've had an enormous thread where we took AS&SH apart for quite a while. If you want some in-depth information about the game, including input from the author, art, pictures of the final product and all that, this is the place to go:
http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=18668
What do you think about it?
I think it's the best game to come out of the old school revival scene. It is now my game of choice, along with the classics, AD&D First Edition and Original D&D (1974). It is a game that is clearly in that tradition, and yet differs in a number of ways on a technical level, while adding a completely original setting, Hyperborea, inspired primarily by the fiction of authors like Clark Ashton Smith, Lovecraft, Howard and the like, into the mix. It represents that game that combines the forces of two of the absolute best role playing games of all time, to me, O/AD&D on one hand, and Call of Cthulhu on the other, and manages to craft a world of weird and dark swords and sorcery that is its own thing, as opposed to just a copy of one or the other of those games.
What is cool about it?
First, it is a game that is true to the tradition of O/AD&D. It uses these games' premise and basic rules, and doesn't screw around with them to create something completely different and unrecognizable from these sources.
It adds a lot of side rules and optional treatments that create its own take on this original game paradigm. From chances-in-6 to succeed at various tasks with your attributes that are taken from OD&D and normalized to the whole game, to extraordinary feats (think the bend bars percentiles of AD&D) that you can attempt with your other physical stats, to a Vancian casting system that allows you to cast your spells directly from your spellbook while running the risk to see it all burn to ash, to different takes on the concept of classes with options like the Shaman, Witch, Warlock or Necromancer, to ... you get the gist of it.
It's entirely rewritten and redesigned, and yet true to the underlying logic of the OD&D and AD&D games on which it builds.
Second, it is Hyperborea, an entire setting described in depth including cultures of men, history, gazetteer, map and so on which can be pretty much whatever you want it to be in your home campaign: it can be a Realm in the Ether like the Ravenloft domains, or a pocket plane apart of the Prime, "just beyond the North Wind" of your world. It could be in the same world, and yet isolated by some forces, like the winds that surround the continent themselves and/or some other devices of your own making. Or it could be its own self-contained setting that isn't attached to anything you previously made or played with.
I will be running AS&SH and Hyperborea soon as its own game and setting (I'm thinking of running an open online game table using google plus, at the moment). I also would like to use Hyperborea as an extension of the Dreamlands to use in conjunction with a 1920s Call of Cthulhu game as well, some time in the future.
Hyperborea is a realm that is surrounded by the North Wind of legend. The basic premise is that it was once part of the ancient world, back in time where Atlantis, Mu and Lemuria were the lieges of the Hyperboreans. And then something happened that cut Hyperborea from the rest of the world, while still occasionally welcoming new comers and lost travellers to its shores. It's a setting where you can play men of Kelt, Kimmerian, Pict, Viking, Amazon, Atlantean, Hyperborean heritage, and others besides (if you want to play a Roman or a Saxon or whatever else comes to mind, that's also possible and workable without problem as the origins of your character are mostly there for color and role playing, and aren't super hard to come up with from a mechanical standpoint). It's a hodge podge that mixes all these elements from the real world with elements from the fiction of CAS and others with the Mythos elements you are accustomed to as a gamer like the existence of the Great Race and Elder Things and Serpent Men that ruled the world in the past and the legends of R'lyeh being somewhere deep under the seas, and manages to make sense of it all, with an identity and feel of its own.
Third, AS&SH is a vibe and feel that combines these elements with the art of Ian Baggley which is all over the game. It is absolutely stunning, and really inspires me to visualize the setting and get to see it in my mind's eye. Stuff like this:
(http://enrill.net/images/ASnSH/ASSH01.jpg)
Or this:
(http://enrill.net/images/ASnSH/ASSH02.jpg)
That's Hyperborea. That's the feel of the game.
How do the mechanics work/differ from other OSR/Retroclone type games?
I guess I covered that above: the basic conceits of the rules are similar to O/AD&D. There are D&D attributes. And classes, and experience, and Vancian magic and descending AC and all these sorts of things. But each of these things has some particular tweaks and/or options tacked on to it that make it really its own thing. Some parts are standardized and streamlined (the d6 rolls for this or that), others are tweaked (like say the way the thief's skills work with d12 and how that meshes with more standardized tests of skills for all characters), others are added (like standard moves and options in combat, the weapon skills, the structure of the round in phases, the fact the combat round is 10 seconds, not one minute as in 1e, etc).
You recognize the system clearly as part of the O/AD&D paradigm, and yet, once you start skimming through the details, it really shines as its own game.
How is the magic system?
Vancian magic, but with a lot of tweaks to it. Like the Chances to Learn spells that are more forgiving than in AD&D, various options like the one I talked about that allows you to cast spells from your spellbook running the change to see it all turn to ash, those kinds of things. If you like traditional Vancian magic, you'll like it, as well as the numerous tweaks it proposes around that concept. If you don't like Vancian magic, chances are you won't be satisfied by the game's take, which embraces it fully.
What doesn't quite work for you?
I honestly can't think of a thing right now.
Boxed set or PDF? (I'm poor.)
The Boxed set is available for order from the AS&SH/North Wind Adventures website (http://www.swordsmen-and-sorcerers.com/store) for $50 plus shipping. The shipping can be quite expensive depending on the part of the world you are in, in part due to the hefty weight of the game. I LOVE my boxed set. I love the way the books were put together with spirals to lie flat on a table, I love the map, I love the dice that include the d20 numbered 0 to 9 twice, I love everything about it. It is beautiful and practical and usable. It's awesome. It's worth every cent I spent on the kickstarter, to me.
Now, the PDF is available for $10 from DriveThru/RPGnow (http://www.rpgnow.com/product/104296/Astonishing-Swordsmen-%26-Sorcerers-of-Hyperborea). At this price the PDF is a STEAL. If anything I've said about the game caught your attention and you are still on the fence for the print product you should DEFINITELY check out the PDF, which is high quality and really, at worse, will inspire your games in some way, shape or form, whether you like the rules, the systems and subsystems, the setting, maps, art, or all of the above. At best, you'll fall in love as I did and get the boxed set when you can.
Pictures I took of the physical product.
Contents of the boxed set.
(http://enrill.net/images/ASnSH/ASSH03.jpg)
Map of Hyperborea unfolded.
(http://enrill.net/images/ASnSH/ASSH04.jpg)
Detail of the map of Hyperborea.
(http://enrill.net/images/ASnSH/ASSH05.jpg)
Quote from: Silverlion;594245What do you think about it?
It's nice to have.
Quote from: Silverlion;594245What is cool about it?
The setting, pretty much. Conjures up notions of Weird Tales in the 20's and 30's, when fantasy was actually interesting.
Quote from: Silverlion;594245How do the mechanics work/differ from other OSR/Retroclone type games?
I'm not too familiar with OSR, but if you're looking for something streamlined, well-oiled, and efficient...this isn't really it. Apparently the ruleset is mostly AD&D 1E, with some tweaks here and there. I haven't really tried it out yet, but the mechanics are not very inspiring.
That being said, there are some sweet sub-classes here: Warlock, Witch, Bard, etc.
Quote from: Silverlion;594245What doesn't quite work for you?
Again, the rules are passable at best. I'm thinking of blending the best parts of Dungeon Crawl Classics with the Hyperborea setting and some of the more granular aspects of DnD, in the hopes of producing the perfect sword & sorcery game.
Benoist: Your pics aren't showing for me.
Quote from: Silverlion;594382Benoist: Your pics aren't showing for me.
OK. That should be fixed now. Is it on your end?
Yes, very nice.
Quote from: Benoist;594263Detail of the map of Hyperborea.
Spoiler
(http://enrill.net/images/ASnSH/ASSH05.jpg)
The font used in the map in the section The Black Waste. That's an old school D&D font, what's the name of it?
Quote from: CRKrueger;594394The font used in the map in the section The Black Waste. That's an old school D&D font, what's the name of it?
It "looks" like a bold Century Gothic (like the font in my sig for the Delver's quote), though I'm not actually sure.
Quote from: Benoist;594398It "looks" like a bold Century Gothic (like the font in my sig for the Delver's quote), though I'm not actually sure.
S'pose I could just ask Jeff, but he's busy boxing up games, so I don't want him to pause until he ships mine. :cool:
Quote from: CRKrueger;594400S'pose I could just ask Jeff, but he's busy boxing up games, so I don't want him to pause until he ships mine. :cool:
James Mishler used the same font on his AGP stuff and I asked him about it back in the day.
Quote from: James Mishler, back in 2008The font in the titles is Baldur, a clone of Feinen Bold that was used in the Mystara and Forgotten Realms books and maps.
Feinen Bold is expensive ($320!?!?!), so I use the Baldur clone from Mad Irishman ($12):
http://www.mad-irishman.net/fonts.html
His fonts are for sale on MyFonts:
http://www.myfonts.com/search?search%5Btext%5D=mad+irishman
We also use the Ronan font for section headers and will find uses for more of his fonts eventually. Great guy, cool fonts.
You can find a great source for old TSR fonts here:
http://www.geocities.com/rgfdfaq/tsrfonts.html
Good gaming!
James
Also,
I just remembered the best Mystara font FAQ:
http://mystara.thorf.co.uk/fontfaq.php
That has a list of just about everything ever used in the old Known World/Mystara products
James was a really cool guy. Too bad AGP tanked, I wonder what he's up to these days.
I bought this game in PDF and wish I had bought the box set. Just looking at the maps and rulebooks reminds me of opening my first box set (World of Greyhawk).
Also, thank you, Ben, for posting pics of this stuff...I really dig your preview and unboxing posts.
I want this box set so effing bad... I just wish I had more disposable income, (and the game shipped with captive players so I could run it whenever I want).
And what about its differences in setting/premise to other OSR Sword & Sorcery-oriented games, like Crypts & Things and Dungeon Crawl Classics ?
Sweet art & maps.
Well, I have zero interest in the system, but I have been running a CAS-inspired setting for a while now, so plundering it for setting elements is definitely something I am wont to do.
What proportion of AS&SH is setting?
I may snag the PDF just for that.
Quote from: Bland Joe Dwarf;594442And what about its differences in setting/premise to other OSR Sword & Sorcery-oriented games, like Crypts & Things and Dungeon Crawl Classics ?
Will answer this tomorrow.
I've been talking myself out of it for months, but I just ordered the box.
How does the monster section look?
I think I'll wait to save up and get the boxed set, after a few other games.
I'll be hosting the author for a Q&A in #rpgnet tomorrow evening, as it happens.
Also: there are crabmen with lazer pistols.
Quote from: Gib;594471How does the monster section look?
The contents you can see in the pictures are separated between two books: the Player's, and the Referee's Manual. Each book contains three volumes pertaining to the game. So total you got 6 volumes in 2 books.
Alright.
The Bestiary of Hyperborea is Volume IV of the rules. It contains:
- Aboleth
- Aerial Minion
- Ant, Giant
- Ape, Albino (white ape)
- Ape, Carnivorous
- Ape, Mountain (ogre)
- Ape-Man
- Archaeopteryx
- Aurochs
- Automaton (living statue, golem; clay, flesh, iron, stone)
- Basilisk
- Bat (normal and giant)
- Bear (black, brown, cave, polar)
- Bee, Giant
- Beetle, Giant (bombardier, fire, stag)
- Behir
- Bird-Man
- Black Pudding
- Blink Dog
- Boar
- Camel (bactrian, dromedary, leaper)
- Cave-Man
- Centipede, Giant (black, pink)
- Chimaera
- Cloaker
- Cockatrice
- Colour Out of Space
- Crab, Giant
- Crab-Man
- Crocodile
- Cyclops
- Deer (red, reindeer, giant elk)
- Demon, Class I
- Demon, Class II
- Demon, Class III
- Demon, Class IV
- Demon, Class V
- Demon, Class VI
- Demon, Succubus
- Demon, Swine
- Dog (hunting/sled, war, wild)
- Dwarf
- Eagle, Giant
- Eel, Electric
- Elder Thing
- Elemental, Air
- Elemental, Earth
- Elemental, Fire
- Elemental, Water
- Falcon (hawk)
- Ferret, Giant
- Fish-Man (deep one)
- Fomorian (hill giant)
- Frog, Giant
- Fungus (shrieker, violet)
- Gargoyle
- Gelatinous Cube
- Ghast
- Ghost
- Ghost, Banshee
- Ghoul
- Ghul (desert demon)
- Giant, Fire
- Giant, Frost
- Gibbering Mouther
- Gorgon (medusa)
- Great Race (yithian)
- Green Slime
- Grey Ooze
- Griffon
- Harpy
- Hell Hound
- Hippogriff
- Horse (draft, riding, warhorse)
- Hydra (aqua, pyro)
- Hyaena (common, giant)
- Hyaena-Man (gnoll)
- Invisible Stalker
- Lamiae
- Leech, Giant
- Lich
- Lion
- Lizard, Giant (chameleon, draco, komodo dragon, tuatara)
- Lizard-Man
- Lotus Woman
- Lycanthrope (wererat, werewolf)
- Mammoth, Woolly
- Man, Bandit
- Man, Berserker
- Man of Leng
- Manticore
- Mi-Go (fungi from yuggoth)
- Minotaur
- Minotron
- Mummy
- Musk Ox
- Mustard Mould
- Naga
- Night-Gaunt
- Nightmare
- Ochre Jelly
- Octopus, Giant
- Oon (ghost-man)
- Orc (demon pict)
- Otyugh
- Owl Bear
- Pegasus
- Pterodactyl
- Purple Worm
- Rat (normal, giant)
- Remorhaz
- Rhinoceros, Woolly
- Roper
- Rust Monster
- Salamander (fire, ice)
- Scorpion, Giant
- Sea Serpent
- Shadow
- Shambling Mound
- Shark, Great White
- Shoggoth
- Skeleton
- Skeleton, Animal
- Slithering Slime
- Sloth, Ground
- Slug, Giant
- Snake (asp, cobra, python, rattler, viper)
- Snake, Gaint (asp, cobra, python, water)
- Snake-Man
- Snow-Man, Abominable (yeti)
- Spectre
- Spider, Giant (crab, black widow, ogre-faced, phase, trap-door, wolf
- Spore-Man
- Squid-Giant
- Stirge
- Tentacular Horror
- Thew Wagon
- Tick, Giant
- Tiger (tiger, sabre-tooth)
- Toad, Giant
- Tree-Man (treant)
- Troglodyte
- Troll
- Vampire
- Vhuurmis (beast-man)
- Weasel, Giant
- Whale (blue, killer, narwhale)
- Wight
- Will-O'-Wisp
- Wolf (wolf, dire wolf, winter wolf)
- Wolverine (normal, giant)
- Wraith
- Wyvern
- Zombie
Described using an OS stat block you'll be pretty familiar with, including a list of the special traits and abilities of the creature, and descriptions, background etc which totals generally around two paragraphs of 10+ lines each, sometimes less (for ubiquitous animals, for instance) and sometimes more (for specific complex races like the Elder Things). It's well organized and usable in-game. I particularly like the summaries of specific special traits and abilities at the end of each creature's entry. Then you can just modify it as suits the game. It's nice.
Quote from: Caesar Slaad;594461What proportion of AS&SH is setting?
The details pertaining to the setting of Hyperborea are omni-present in the work. It's a game that's built for the setting, and vice-versa. Now that said, the two larger portions of the work dedicated to the setting per se are the Bestiary with loads of details about specific denizens and creatures of Hyperborea, and Volume VI Hyperborea Gazetteer (in the Referee's Manual, see above for the six volumes in two books thing), which is the presentation of the setting in a way that is indeed reminiscent of the kind of details and organization you could find in the World of Greyhawk boxed set of 1983.
Now I'm going to quote the contents of Volume VI as posted by Jeffrey Talanian on the AS&SH forum on the OD&D Discussions board:
- INTRODUCTION the etymology of the term "Hyperborea" and how the author applies it to this fantasy game milieu
- HYPERBOREA in RELATION to OLD EARTH and the CELESTIAL BODIES Old Earth, The Sun (Helios), The Moons (Phobos and Selene), The Planets (Ganymede, Saturn, Ouranos, Poseidonos, Yuggoth), Astronomical Phenomena, The Black Gulf, The Boreas (North Wind)
- CALENDAR the 13 year cycle explained, which features 1 year of complete light, and 1 year of complete darkness; days of the week; the 13 month calendar, including the moon phases of Phobos and Selene; the Festivals detailed (Apollonalia, Saturnalia, Bealltainn, and Plutonia)
- CLIMATE and SEASONS of HYPERBOREA winter, spring, summer, and fall discussed as relating to the 13 year cycle in which there is 1 year of uninterrupted light and 1 year of uninterrupted darkness
- FLORA and FAUNA of HYPERBOREA desert, forest, grassland (and steppe), tundra, and wetlands
- LOTUS SPECIES OF HYPERBOREA black lotus, golden lotus, smoky lotus, violet lotus, white-speckled blue lotus
- A BRIEF HISTORY OF HYPERBOREA short history of the realm from when it was an arctic continent on Earth to its own planetary body in the far-flung future; includes information on the reign of races such as the elder things, snake-men, the bestial vhuurmis, the Hyperboreans; the advent of the Ashen Worm is discussed, as well as the rise of the barbarians, the coming of the Green Death, and man's struggle to survive in the post-plague years
- COMMON ERA CHRONOLOGY OF HYPERBOREA a table that lists major events of the Common Era (post-Green Death) and also several events before the Common Era)
- RACES of HYPERBOREA races discussed in greater depth, including "Common" men, Amazons, Atlanteans, Esquimaux, Hyperboreans, Ixians, Kelts, Kimmerians (and Kimmeri-Kelts), Picts (and Half-Blood Picts), Vikings, and other races
- ANCIENT and CURRENT LANGUAGES the major language groups are discussed; also, some of the rare and secret languages, and also writing systems
- CIVILIZED AND BARBARIC HYPERBOREAN POPULATIONS EXAMINED population distribution, settlement populations (village, town, city); also, fortifications and population communications are discussed
- POLITICAL and GEOGRAPHICAL DIVISIONS many of the lands on the map are discussed. It is important to note that there are many towns, villages, stretches of land, rivers, islands, and so forth on the map that are left blank for the individual referee to develop. This is a sort of two-pronged approach in that referees who want pre-developed setting are supplied with plenty of resources, and those who wish to create their own are left with plenty of blank canvass; other still might wish to work out something between.
- MARVELS and WONDERS of HYPERBOREA the realm features some unique features such as the Black Obelisks, Mount Vhuurmithadon, the Boreas (North Wind), and the Rapids at the End of the World
- RELIGIONS of HYPERBOREA faith in this decaying realm is discussed, and also the deities of Apollo, Artemis, Aurorus "The Shining One", Azathoth, Boreas "The North Wind," Helios "The Sun," Kraken "The Dimensional Dweller," Krimmr, Kthulhu, Lunaqqua, Mordezzan, Rel "God of Thieves," Thaumagorga, Tlakk-Nakka, Xathoqqua "The Toad God," Yig (Apep) "The Great Serpent," Yikkorth "The Ashen Worm," Ymir, Yoon’Deh, Ythaqqa "The Wendigo," and Yug. The orthodoxy of Xathoqqua (Tsathoggua) is most prevalent across the realm.
That's actually I think one of the many qualities of the game, that the setting doesn't feel apart from the rules of the game, and yet is completely usable independently if you so wish. It's also, to paraphrase the author, one if not the defining element that distinguishes from other retroclones, or games like DCC RPG (which includes no explicit setting described), Crypts and Things (which includes a 6-page minimalist setting in the form of "the Continent of Terror") and the like.
Quote from: Patrick;594427I bought this game in PDF and wish I had bought the box set. Just looking at the maps and rulebooks reminds me of opening my first box set (World of Greyhawk).
I had the chance to receive a print copy of RuneQuest Deluxe at the same time as AS&SH, and the AS&SH boxed set opening had nothing to envy, as far as my glee and wow factor were concerned, to the opening of the RQ boxed set that followed.
Fun fact: AS&SH contains a set of six dice you can ink yourself. One of the dice is a d20 numbered 0 to 9 twice, like the originals of decades ago. I never owned a d20 like that and was quite pleased to find it in there. In the RQ Deluxe box, there were ALSO two d20 numbered 0 to 9 twice you could ink to stand for the percentile dice. It was a funny coincidence.
Quote from: Patrick;594427Also, thank you, Ben, for posting pics of this stuff...I really dig your preview and unboxing posts.
I still owe you some pics and description of the Call of Cthulhu 30th anniversary French edition. I'll get back to you on that thread. And probably create a separate one for Les Années Folles, too. So thanks for the interest mate. It's cool to share the love.
Quote from: Bland Joe Dwarf;594442And what about its differences in setting/premise to other OSR Sword & Sorcery-oriented games, like Crypts & Things and Dungeon Crawl Classics ?
Crypts and Things is essentially a Swords & Wizardry variant. It has therefore fairly minimalist rules in comparison to AS&SH. The Classes of C&T are the Barbarian, Fighter, Magician and Thief (1). The Cleric's province is mostly folded into the reworking of the Magician's Vancian magic system separated in three spell lists of Black, Grey and White magic, whether you want to focus on destruction and harm, alteration and manipulation or life and protection respectively. The setting included in the game is fairly minimalist. It's a type of game whose vibe is completely different from AS&SH to me. It doesn't have the same scope or mood or art, for that matter. These are just two completely different treatments and games, to me.
DCC RPG is like... nothing like the other two. It's really a game that took the Appendix N sources from the 1e DMG and just went ALRIGHT let's go HARDCORE, let's go ROCK N ROLL with this shit and build some DYNAMITE game out of this WOOHOO! It's like D&D on acid listening to Led Zeppelin with a bunch of Elric novels on the table, used copies of Rolemaster and Warhammer on the game shelf against the wall and a bottle of tequila and a HUGE pile of blank character sheets to boot. It takes Moldvay D&D as a base, but with all the tweaks and the unpredictible magic and the supernatural patrons and the d20 system somewhat there and all the weird polyhedral dice... it's barely recognizable and yet it's like ... a hardcore crazy version of D&D in a way. It's absolutely BRILLIANT and anyone who wants a completely fresh take on D&D-type adventuring in dungeons and the like should totally check it out.
It's also completely different from AS&SH, a game which by comparison really embraces the O/AD&D game paradigm (OD&D to Supplements to AD&D 1e including bits of Unearthed Arcana, if you will) and creates a new spin on it with the gem that is the Hyperborean setting itself. It's a much more subtle piece of work in a way (though under the ROCK N ROLL FUCK YEAH style of DCC RPG there IS a lot of subtle game design to find in there), whether we're talking about the mood and vibe, the world and its pastiche components, the blend of fantasies that resulted in it, and how the traditional 1e-style rules mixed with the setting create this very special brew of pulp swords and sorcery.
So in conclusion, I think all three games are completely different from one another. I would play all three.
(1) Here are by comparison the contents of Volume I Swordsmen & Sorcerers, which is essentially the Character Generation part of the AS&SH game:
- Introduction (brief introduction to game)
- Dice Conventions (how to use dice)
- Character Creation (steps to creating a character)
- Attributes (strength, dexterity, constitution, intelligence, wisdom, charisma; modifiers are presented on shallow curve: str 13-14 = +0/+1, str 15-16 = +1/+1, str 17 = +1/+2, str 18 = +2/+3)
- Race (Races of mankind, including Common, Amazon, Atlantean, Esquimaux, Hyperborean, Ixian, Kelt, Kimmerian, Kimmeri-Kelt, Pict, Pict Half-Blood, Viking)
- Physique (height, weight, age determination, etc.)
- Class (4 principal classes presented in 12 levels of advancement; by 9th level most characters are eligible to establish a castle, stronghold, hideout, etc.)
Fighter: a swordsman, bowman, or other warrior type.
Magician: a sorcerer who memorizes arcane formulae and casts spells.
Cleric: an armed and armoured mystic sorcerer.
Thief: a nimble swordsman possessed of numerous specialty skills.
- Subclass (18 subclasses)
Barbarian: an outland warrior possessed of feral instincts.
Berserker: a rampaging shock trooper renowned for unbridled battle rage.
Cataphract: a mail clad horseman and warrior elite.
Paladin: a champion who crusades for justice and Law.
Ranger: a borderland fighter, frontiersman, and wilderness warrior.
Warlock: a spell weaving fighter who wields steel and sorcery interchangeably.
Illusionist: a sorcerer who evokes phantasms and manipulates shadows and light.
Necromancer: a sorcerer who practices black magic and communicates with the dead.
Pyromancer: a sorcerer who manipulates the elemental power of fire.
Witch: a sorceress who brews potions, divines portents, and lays curses.
Druid: a mystic sorcerer empowered by ancestral, elemental, and animistic spirits.
Monk: a warrior-priest who strives for physical and mental mastery.
Priest: a chaplain mystic of prodigious spell casting capacity.
Shaman: a primal sorcerer who confers with ancestral and totem spirits.
Assassin: a thief who specializes in murder and intrigue.
Bard: a warrior, scholar, and weaver of enchanted lyrics and/or music.
Legerdemainist: an adept thief who also commands the power of sorcery.
Scout: a lightly armed explorer, intelligence gatherer, and stealth master.
- Alignment (ethos and principals as governed by Law/Civilization versus Chaos/Barbarism; alignments include Lawful Good, Lawful Evil, Chaotic Good, Chaotic Evil, and Neutrality)
- Other Statistics (armour class, fighting ability, hit dice, hit points, movement, saving throw)
- Background (secondary skills, languages)
- Weapon Skills (each character class/subclass begins play with a broad group of weapons with which they are familiar; fighters, for example can use all weapons without penalty, whilst magicians begin with proficiency in a small handful of weapons. Characters with a limited list gain new "off-list" weapon skills every 4 levels, so your magician can indeed learn to fight with a sword.)
Weapon Mastery: Fighters may select two and fighter subclasses may select one weapon with which they have mastered. This confers a +1/+1 bonus. Mastery also confers increased attack rates. New masteries are achieved every 4 levels.
- Money (gold, electrum, silver, copper; exchange rates; starting gold)
- Equipment (armour, shields, melee weapons, missile weapons, general equipment, provisions, religious items, clothing, livestock, tack and harness, vehicles, services)
Thanks, Benoist, for the amazing extended review, I bought DCC and was curious about C&T and AS&SH'S link points to sword & sorcery and Appendix N material, and you've just sold the game to me straight, although I think I'll wait for it to arrive on Nobleknight, Leisure Games or other, because ordering books to Brazil with non-expedited/priority shipping is too risky.
Quote from: Bland Joe Dwarf;594733Thanks, Benoist, for the amazing extended review, I bought DCC and was curious about C&T and AS&SH'S link points to sword & sorcery and Appendix N material, and you've just sold the game to me straight, although I think I'll wait for it to arrive on Nobleknight, Leisure Games or other, because ordering books to Brazil with non-expedited/priority shipping is too risky.
You're very welcome. I hope you get to play the hell out of AS&SH when you get a chance to get it. It's an amazing game.
Quote from: Benoist;594555The contents you can see in the pictures are separated between two books: the Player's, and the Referee's Manual. Each book contains three volumes pertaining to the game. So total you got 6 volumes in 2 books.
Alright.
The Bestiary of Hyperborea is Volume IV of the rules. It contains:
- Aboleth
- Aerial Minion
- Ant, Giant
- Ape, Albino (white ape)
- Ape, Carnivorous
- Ape, Mountain (ogre)
- Ape-Man
- Archaeopteryx
- Aurochs
- Automaton (living statue, golem; clay, flesh, iron, stone)
- Basilisk
- Bat (normal and giant)
- Bear (black, brown, cave, polar)
- Bee, Giant
- Beetle, Giant (bombardier, fire, stag)
- Behir
- Bird-Man
- Black Pudding
- Blink Dog
- Boar
- Camel (bactrian, dromedary, leaper)
- Cave-Man
- Centipede, Giant (black, pink)
- Chimaera
- Cloaker
- Cockatrice
- Colour Out of Space
- Crab, Giant
- Crab-Man
- Crocodile
- Cyclops
- Deer (red, reindeer, giant elk)
- Demon, Class I
- Demon, Class II
- Demon, Class III
- Demon, Class IV
- Demon, Class V
- Demon, Class VI
- Demon, Succubus
- Demon, Swine
- Dog (hunting/sled, war, wild)
- Dwarf
- Eagle, Giant
- Eel, Electric
- Elder Thing
- Elemental, Air
- Elemental, Earth
- Elemental, Fire
- Elemental, Water
- Falcon (hawk)
- Ferret, Giant
- Fish-Man (deep one)
- Fomorian (hill giant)
- Frog, Giant
- Fungus (shrieker, violet)
- Gargoyle
- Gelatinous Cube
- Ghast
- Ghost
- Ghost, Banshee
- Ghoul
- Ghul (desert demon)
- Giant, Fire
- Giant, Frost
- Gibbering Mouther
- Gorgon (medusa)
- Great Race (yithian)
- Green Slime
- Grey Ooze
- Griffon
- Harpy
- Hell Hound
- Hippogriff
- Horse (draft, riding, warhorse)
- Hydra (aqua, pyro)
- Hyaena (common, giant)
- Hyaena-Man (gnoll)
- Invisible Stalker
- Lamiae
- Leech, Giant
- Lich
- Lion
- Lizard, Giant (chameleon, draco, komodo dragon, tuatara)
- Lizard-Man
- Lotus Woman
- Lycanthrope (wererat, werewolf)
- Mammoth, Woolly
- Man, Bandit
- Man, Berserker
- Man of Leng
- Manticore
- Mi-Go (fungi from yuggoth)
- Minotaur
- Minotron
- Mummy
- Musk Ox
- Mustard Mould
- Naga
- Night-Gaunt
- Nightmare
- Ochre Jelly
- Octopus, Giant
- Oon (ghost-man)
- Orc (demon pict)
- Otyugh
- Owl Bear
- Pegasus
- Pterodactyl
- Purple Worm
- Rat (normal, giant)
- Remorhaz
- Rhinoceros, Woolly
- Roper
- Rust Monster
- Salamander (fire, ice)
- Scorpion, Giant
- Sea Serpent
- Shadow
- Shambling Mound
- Shark, Great White
- Shoggoth
- Skeleton
- Skeleton, Animal
- Slithering Slime
- Sloth, Ground
- Slug, Giant
- Snake (asp, cobra, python, rattler, viper)
- Snake, Gaint (asp, cobra, python, water)
- Snake-Man
- Snow-Man, Abominable (yeti)
- Spectre
- Spider, Giant (crab, black widow, ogre-faced, phase, trap-door, wolf
- Spore-Man
- Squid-Giant
- Stirge
- Tentacular Horror
- Thew Wagon
- Tick, Giant
- Tiger (tiger, sabre-tooth)
- Toad, Giant
- Tree-Man (treant)
- Troglodyte
- Troll
- Vampire
- Vhuurmis (beast-man)
- Weasel, Giant
- Whale (blue, killer, narwhale)
- Wight
- Will-O'-Wisp
- Wolf (wolf, dire wolf, winter wolf)
- Wolverine (normal, giant)
- Wraith
- Wyvern
- Zombie
Described using an OS stat block you'll be pretty familiar with, including a list of the special traits and abilities of the creature, and descriptions, background etc which totals generally around two paragraphs of 10+ lines each, sometimes less (for ubiquitous animals, for instance) and sometimes more (for specific complex races like the Elder Things). It's well organized and usable in-game. I particularly like the summaries of specific special traits and abilities at the end of each creature's entry. Then you can just modify it as suits the game. It's nice.
Thanks for taking the time to go above and beyond there.
I'm sure I'll get some use out of it.
Q&A in progress!
Quote from: Silverlion;594245What do you think about it?
Inspiring, but not something I'm likely to run. (The flavor of the setting is too weird/horrific for a game including kids, which is my usual group, and I'd have to hunt a while to find adults who want to play in it.)
Quote from: Silverlion;594245What is cool about it?
Setting, and very secondarily how the rules align with the setting.
Quote from: Silverlion;594245How do the mechanics work/differ from other OSR/Retroclone type games?
As others have said, it's very much AD&D-like; nothing in particular jumps out in my memory.
Quote from: Silverlion;594245How is the magic system?
Each of the magic-using subclasses has its own custom spell list (with moderate overlap with the base list) with enough flavor. Like later D&Ds the number of spells has multiplied; a witch has access to maybe 5 different narrow Detect spells over the first two levels. If you read the spell listings carefully bits of setting flavor peek through, but there are so many spells this takes work. I think flavor could have been much stronger with narrower spell lists.
All spells for all classes are listed in one big alphabetical list, which some like. I find it easier to reference but much, much harder to browse than by-class by-level sorting.
Quote from: Silverlion;594245What doesn't quite work for you?
Ruleset feeling like complexified AD&D. As somebody who last ran Labyrinth Lord, has been building a couple of ACKS sandboxes, and is currently distracted by Spears of the Dawn, the rules just strike me as too fussy. For some reason ACKS subclasses appeal to me (not using the stock set themselves but using them as examples + the rules in the Players' Companion to build my own setting-specific subclasses), but the subclasses of AS&SH are too many and too blah. I'd like to think there's a way he could have portrayed how the subclasses belong to the setting to make them more relevant.
Quote from: Silverlion;594245Boxed set of PDF? (I'm poor.)
Given that constraint, PDF. You'd have to print out and tape together the map segments if you wanted to refer to them easily (much spilled ink! See if he can throw together a version without the black fill?), but everything else you need is there. If you are so in love with the PDF that you do want to run it, you can then start saving up the $50+ for the boxed set.
I thought the dice were gimmicky, and am much happier with a standard set of dice bought at FLGS. Similarly, I'm not likely to use the included character sheets - so I'm left with a big box, two nice sturdy spiral bound books, a poster map, and clutter.
This still looks awesome. Its too bad that its apparently too complicated for them to send me a review copy.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;595891This still looks awesome. Its too bad that its apparently too complicated for them to send me a review copy.
RPGPundit
I wish we could circumvent that shipping problem because I'm sure you'd like it a lot. I tried to see if I could act as a sort of middle-man from the US to South America but the shipping charges would be just as bad if not worse on my end. That's because of the weight of the box. After a certain weight the international shipping charges just skyrocket.
Couldn't they send a PDF copy to review?
Quote from: Fiasco;596064Couldn't they send a PDF copy to review?
They could, but Pundit doesn't do PDF reviews, as far as I know.
No, I'm afraid I don't.
I proposed at one point that they could send the books without the box, but I don't know if that would help much.
RPGPundit
So, Ben, at the risk of provoking you're ire: how much of the 1e DMG is in this game and is it presented in a more accessible (better organized) manner in a font of readable size? Because, man, I have the1e DMG but I cannot get past the layout and organization.
So if I had one choice for an old school game.....this, DCC, or Hackmàaster? Can you help me here? I know you like the first two and trust your judgment. Remember my rule if the game can't be played in full with no more than 5 books it's not for me.
Quote from: RPGPundit;596146No, I'm afraid I don't.
I proposed at one point that they could send the books without the box, but I don't know if that would help much.
RPGPundit
Couldn't you have it shipped to a family member in Canada and then pick it up on your next visit?
Or alternatively would shipping to the US than you be finanically feasible?
Quote from: Gib;596183So, Ben, at the risk of provoking you're ire: how much of the 1e DMG is in this game and is it presented in a more accessible (better organized) manner in a font of readable size? Because, man, I have the1e DMG but I cannot get past the layout and organization.
No ire on my part. I think the characteristics of the DMG on that front make it in part what it is, that it's really something like a dialog from one DM to another that you read chunk by chunk and then make your own choices from there as a DM, that it participates to the appeal of the book to me, but it's not the only way to do it by any means, and I certainly can see how that can confuse and even annoy some people. But the thread's not about the DMG so I'll move on.
In AS&SH the text is spaced out, the font is bigger, the organization is usable, ergonomic at the game table: each volume has a TOC, and there's a general index at the end of each manual. So for the Player's Manual say you have three TOCs, one for each volume included, and the general index at the end. It's fairly easy to navigate your way through the books with the simple, clean, black and white layout of the books. BTW I don't know how noticeable it is on the pics I posted but the books are actually smaller than letter size. About as tall as the OD&D brown booklets in fact, but also about... a good inch-and-a-half larger than an LBB.
Here's a sample page spread to give you an idea of the layout to expect. (http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp161/ghul576/PM_22-23.jpg)
Quote from: Marleycat;596190So if I had one choice for an old school game.....this, DCC, or Hackmàaster? Can you help me here? I know you like the first two and trust your judgment. Remember my rule if the game can't be played in full with no more than 5 books it's not for me.
I can't comment on Hackmaster. I never played, run, or even read it.
Now for the other two, they're really different types of games. I compare them on this post. (http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=594565&postcount=25) So DCC really is that completely different take on the literature that participated to the original D&D game, taken in a completely different direction with super dangerous random magic, level 0 characters that are mowed down until a few make it out of the dungeon as your "real" characters, this sort of Moorcock meets Vance to smoke a bong while they play Warhammer FRP with Rolemaster's critical hit table going on throughout. It's a game that you then take to any setting you want and doesn't include an explicit default for us to use right from the book.
AS&SH by contrast is less crazy, plays on bases we know, being a clear descendant from the 0e and 1e with lots of tweaks added on to that frame, some added organization and inner logic, and so on, a set of rules that blends then with a very explicit, fairly detailed setting (Hyperborea) included with the game right off the bat, with map, Greyhawk style gazetteer in the box etc. The feel of the game is more reminiscent of the pulp magazines, of Clark Ashton Smith and Howards fiction in particular, with a strong helping of HPL mythos as you'd probably expect. It's much more subtle, or coherent if you will, in the sense that it's more about creating a smooth blend between the setting and rules and elements and having a world that is semi-believable and yet full of weird and monsters and laser guns and crabmen and stuff, while I see more DCC as a game that screams ROCK N ROLL FUCK YEAH PLAY ME DUDE by its wacko brilliance.
Also. Both games are self-contained. You really don't need anything else to play them, either of them. Now AS&SH comes in a box, so you got that feel of game right there, with the character sheets, the dice included, the fold up map and everything. DCC on the other hand comes in the form of a massive book, but also includes two brief (three four pages) sample adventures (one at level 0-1, the other at level 5, IIRC).
Two very different games really.
Quote from: Benoist;596240Here's a sample page spread to give you an idea of the layout to expect. (http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp161/ghul576/PM_22-23.jpg)
That looks interesting.
How do
Fighting Ability, Turning Ability and
Casting Ability work?
They don't look like anything that resembles D&D proper.
Fighting Ability might be a BAB, but the other two I can't figure.
Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;596262That looks interesting.
How do Fighting Ability, Turning Ability and Casting Ability work?
They don't look like anything that resembles D&D proper.
Fighting Ability might be a BAB, but the other two I can't figure.
It's not really a "BAB". Basically what this means is that instead of having a to-hit chart for every single class or class group, you just have one to-hit chart that references Fighting Ability instead of class level, which you cross reference with the AC of the target. It simplifies the process and allows to concentrate that information in a single place, in other words. Likewise for the Turning Ability which replaces the level of Cleric, Priest etc on the turning chart, and Casting Ability replaces your "spellcaster level" when determining such things as range and spell intensities in the game, so you don't have to substract levels to your class level when you're part of some secondary spellcasting class or whatnot. You just reference your Casting Ability and you know how that affects your spells.
Now it makes sense that the Cleric's Turning and Casting Ability is the same as his level, and I guess that the Fighter's Fighting Abiliy equals his level as well.
Nifty. A clean way to list modifiers (or varying capabilities) of very different rules subsystems in one format.
Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;596281Now it makes sense that the Cleric's Turning and Casting Ability is the same as his level, and I guess that the Fighter's Fighting Abiliy equals his level as well.
Nifty. A clean way to list modifiers (or varying capabilities) of very different rules subsystems in one format.
That's it yes, basically.
I took a shot of the Referee's Manual with LBB Men & Magic to compare sizes. The size of the Player's Manual is the same as the Referee's. The Manuals are thus exactly as tall as LBBs, and a little more than an inch-and-a-half wider.
(http://enrill.net/images/ASnSH/ASSH06.jpg)
The thing is that I don't know when I'm going to be going to Canada again; I don't know if it'd be worth the publisher's while to have to wait for possibly a year or more before I can actually review what they send me.
RPGPundit
I've launched an AS&SH campaign over at Myth Weavers. I already have 5 players for the first part, but 4 other parts are planned. I expect there to be openings so if any one is interested in playing feel free to check in on the game.
I understand from what Benoist and other fans have said that this falls somewhere more conservative on the "gonzo" spectrum than DCC; yet is more innovative in many regards than ACKS. The question for me would be whether it has anything that would make it more worthwhile to use in a game than Lamentations of the Flame Princess; and if so, what? And for what kind of games?
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;596658I understand from what Benoist and other fans have said that this falls somewhere more conservative on the "gonzo" spectrum than DCC; yet is more innovative in many regards than ACKS. The question for me would be whether it has anything that would make it more worthwhile to use in a game than Lamentations of the Flame Princess; and if so, what? And for what kind of games?
RPGPundit
Well, from what I've skimmed from both, AS&SH is more of a front-loaded setting, whereas LotFP is more do-it-yourself. AS&SH has an extensive bestiary, for example, whereas LotFP asks you to wing it when it comes to monsters. They seem to be very different takes on the same general "weird fantasy" subject.
Quote from: RPGPundit;596658I understand from what Benoist and other fans have said that this falls somewhere more conservative on the "gonzo" spectrum than DCC; yet is more innovative in many regards than ACKS. The question for me would be whether it has anything that would make it more worthwhile to use in a game than Lamentations of the Flame Princess; and if so, what? And for what kind of games?
RPGPundit
Quote from: Dan Davenport;596664Well, from what I've skimmed from both, AS&SH is more of a front-loaded setting, whereas LotFP is more do-it-yourself. AS&SH has an extensive bestiary, for example, whereas LotFP asks you to wing it when it comes to monsters. They seem to be very different takes on the same general "weird fantasy" subject.
I agree with Dan. LotFP is more about doing it yourself. It provides a basic frame of play, but expect you to fill the wide blanks. Not so much with AS&SH, which again comes with its own gazetteer-style setting in the form of Hyperborea. It's much less generic, more specific, by design.
Rules wise, it has human ethnicities that are mostly there for background color. No demi-humans. It's about the trip of playing a Viking or a Pict, it's not about getting a bonus to this or that stat and special "racial" abilities and whatnot. The classes are based on a basic/advanced idea not unlike 2nd edition AD&D, where you have the basic classes and can just run the game with that, i.e. fighter, magician, cleric and thief, and/or add the plethora of advanced classes into the mix, which I have listed earlier in this thread, and includes the usual suspects like Paladin, Ranger, Monk and the like, but also some new comers or new takes on old archetypes like the Witch, the Scout, the Priest (which is a pure divine spellcaster of sorts), and so on.
The d6 mechanic of OD&D has been extended to make sense of tests of most actions that wouldn't be covered by stats, and also tests of stats themselves. The thieves' skills work with d12 and mesh into that system. The combat system is different than AD&D with a 10 seconds round (instead of a minute in AD&D), two phases of movement, missiles and melee, that kind of thing. So if you're not looking into the actual detail it'll look like a cleaned up AD&D First Ed with a lot of little tweaks here and there, and if you look into the detail, you realize these details actually make for a different game altogether.
To put it into the simplest (and most stereotyping) terms:
LotFP is a generic variant on a "weird" OD&D (1974).
AS&SH is a setting-specific variant on a "weird," mythos-friendly, dark fantasy AD&D First Ed.
Quote from: Benoist;596690LotFP is a generic variant on a "weird" OD&D (1974).
AS&SH is a setting-specific variant on a "weird," mythos-friendly, dark fantasy AD&D First Ed.
Oh... I should also mention that LotFP is moving in more of a Renaissance direction, with the author mentioning that if he had it to do over, he'd take out the fantasy races and put in black powder firearms. AS&SH is very much swords-and-sorcery with some high tech weirdness thrown in.
Quote from: Dan Davenport;596664Well, from what I've skimmed from both, AS&SH is more of a front-loaded setting, whereas LotFP is more do-it-yourself. AS&SH has an extensive bestiary, for example, whereas LotFP asks you to wing it when it comes to monsters. They seem to be very different takes on the same general "weird fantasy" subject.
Well, that would be one point in its favor...
RPGPundit
My copy has been shipped! :D
Quote from: CRKrueger;597027My copy has been shipped! :D
When did you order?
Quote from: Dan Davenport;596811Oh... I should also mention that LotFP is moving in more of a Renaissance direction, with the author mentioning that if he had it to do over, he'd take out the fantasy races and put in black powder firearms. AS&SH is very much swords-and-sorcery with some high tech weirdness thrown in.
I didn't know about Jim Raggi's wishes, but having just read LotFP once, and knowing now AS&SH fairly well, I just want to say I agree with your take here.
Quote from: crkrueger;597027my copy has been shipped! :d
Quote from: gib;597029when did you order?
answer me!
Quote from: CRKrueger;597027My copy has been shipped! :D
Lucky bastard.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Gib;597034answer me!
October 5th