Some of you may know of this game, some of you may not.  I don't know all the history and details, other than to say that it's popular with a certain crowd at RPG.net, giving it a certain cachet of respectability.  I checked it out a year or so ago, and it's available in the rawest form for free from the creator's website.  

What is Wushu? It's a 'light' game designed for narrative heavy action.  It is incredibly flexible because there aren't any rules needed to model just about anything.

Sounds good, right?

Well, to a certain extent, it is.  A group of fans don't really need any books to play a quick pickup game and all that.  

It's also the problem, one of several.  Mr. Bayn, apprarently, would like to make money off his game in some small ways.  You can, for example, do as I did and purchase 'Gun Fu' of RPGnow for a couple of bucks. It's a fourteen page booklet all about how to run Gun combat dynamically in Wushu.

Only, since there aren't any real rules necessary to do this, it's more a primer on what gun combat consists of and three or four pages of 'sample fights'. In other words it's an extended idea.  Anyone who hasn't made it past college yet might be shocked to learn that Ideas aren't worth a dime in the real world. Ideas are easy, it's the work that goes into using them that is valuable.  

But that's not the real problem, it merely illustrates an aspect of the problem. You see, Wushu... by virtue of having virtually no rules... is doomed to being about as exciting as a rock/paper/sissors championship.   For all I know it would work great as the framework of a LARP, but as an RPG its about as exciting as a game of Spades.  You can only play it so many times, or for so long, before you outgrow it.

Wushu isn't alone in this of course, its merely illustrative of a type of 'light game' that has grown in popularity the last few years. From a business aspect they are problematic, it's almost impossible to sell books for a game that doesn't really need any, as the Gun-fu book illustrates.  I bought mine out of curiousity rather then expecting a useful guide to game play.

From a gaming aspect, wushu is incredibly weak. I won't go into the details, but anyone over the age of 12 should be able to figure out how to 'min/max' the system within about five minutes.  You may argue that this is not a bug, as it's meant for a different sort of play.

Bollocks. The simple fact that you are playing means it is important. Once every character starts to play the same, once players start ticking off their line counts to hit the exact same numbers each time, you aren't really playing anything anymore, you are going through a rote pattern.  To maintain interest and playability an system needs sufficent complexity to ensure it doesn't get repetetive inside an hour... say. Imagine how popular 40k would be if typical armies consisted of a single squad. Not much room for variation at that level, and game play breaks down into mere statistical analysis in short order.

Yeah, Wushu's system is kinda "Eh?", but I found that, in play, the draw was the attitude more than anything.

I don't consider anything with so few rules a game. Why not just play pretend?:haw:

Quote from: McrowI don't consider anything with so few rules a game. Why not just play pretend?:haw:

I give you Diplomacy.  Not a game?

!i!

Not to nitpick, but I've had a lot of fun with rocks/paper/scissors over the years.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaI give you Diplomacy.  Not a game?

!i!

Been a while since I played it, but I believe there are a LOT more rules in that game than Wushu has.

Quote from: jrientsNot to nitpick, but I've had a lot of fun with rocks/paper/scissors over the years.

hmmmm...I have only ever used it to break ties and solve disputes. :confused:

Quote from: SpikeSome of you may know of this game, some of you may not.  I don't know all the history and details, other than to say that it's popular with a certain crowd at RPG.net, giving it a certain cachet of respectability.

Respectability? People chiming in all the time when someone's looking for a new system, even when he or she explicitly mentioned that he doesn't want to use Wushu? Fanboys...

And yeah, the game itself is a bit disappointing. Nothing intricate or even well-delivered. About the same level as that annoying "Window" game that was the rage a few years ago...

I like the idea of it, but found the rules too flimsy to sustain anything but the most casual of one-shots. It relies on ironclad, almost telepathic understanding between the participants, otherwise it devolves into an argument of what's acceptably in genre. The Principle of Narrative Truth is a neat idea, but I much prefer games that offer challenge and the possibility of failure over an extended bean-counting monologue of how 'awesome' my character is.

Put bluntly Wushu doesn't really challenge me on any level. The rewards it offers are no different to those of a thousand other games, ones that go to the additional trouble of backing up their narrative components with robust, comprehensive mechanics.

Quote from: jrientsNot to nitpick, but I've had a lot of fun with rocks/paper/scissors over the years.

So have I. But not all by their lonesome, over and over again.  Every once in a while, spur of the moment one shot? Certainly. Same place I'd stick Wushu and others of it's ilk.

Quote from: McrowBeen a while since I played it, but I believe there are a LOT more rules in that game than Wushu has.

I think the rules to Diplomacy could be distilled into a very small space if you assume an audience that's familiar with formal logic. Another way of putting this would be to say that the program for a computer moderator for Diplomacy would be pretty small--in fact the rules would probably be much smaller than even a text interface + datafile for the map.

Same with chess: if you don't have to explain (or program) strategies, it's a very simple game, comparable to Wushu.

The difference is that chess & Diplomacy do have a map, they have dimensionality, which is a product of mechanically-constrained interaction. In Wushu the lack of any significant constraints means that the game is--mechanically--close to one-dimensional.

First, the full disclosure: I'm the brother-in-law of Wushu's creator.  Everything I say in this and any other posts on the subject are my words only and should not be interpreted otherwise.  Now that that's out of the way, I can get on to the rest of my post.

I'm a big Wushu fan, and I've played it quite a bit, for obvious reasons.  But I am also a big D&D fan, for example, and a fan of a number of other games as well.  I don't see that as contradictory, nor do I see it as strange.  

That's because I find Wushu fun for different reasons than I do D&D, in much the same way that I enjoy Chinese food for different reasons than I enjoy Italian food.  I'd say most of the critiques I've seen in this thread are valid, and I think Dan would say that too.  Wushu is a very, very simple system with extremely limited tactical options -- that's the point.  It's not designed for long-term play, either, and it's pretty much meant to enable showing how awesome your character is if that's how you want to play it (of course, since it's all details, it could just as easily be how much your character sucks, too. )  And yes, players do have to be on the same page as other players and the GM.  But that's true of every RPG that I've ever played or known of.

Also, there's some good add-ons that people have made (Bailywolf in particular has made some great ones; I don't remember if he posts here or not, though) that add to the complexity a bit.  Since the system is pretty light, it's very easy to do, and (despite what some of the game's fans on RPG.net might say) it's cool if you want to do that.

Additionally, I think the Atlas Games card game Once Upon a Time is a good example of something else that is trying to do what Wushu does.  Mechanically, it's pretty simple and not all that interesting.  It's all about the story you get as a result, which is the part that is interesting and cool.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have a Wushu game to write for GenCon, after I finish my WFRP game.  But maybe I will work on my D&D campaign first.

Redezvous, if there was one thing I was trying not to do when I wrote my OP it was to insult people who like Wushu.  I am strongly in the 'different tastes for different folks' crowd.  

I just can't help but to think of Wushu as 'chicken flavored ice cream'. Right now, someone, somewhere in the world is saying 'Hm... that sounds mighty tasty'.. and a bunch of people are saying 'yeah, I'd try it'.

And a whole heckuvalot of people are going 'ew...'.

None of which says it's a good or bad Icecream. But we could suggest it'd be silly to build an ice cream empire out of it, right?:raise:

My only problem with Wushu is the people out there who suggest it for any purpose, no matter how appropriate or inappropriate. I have the same problem with Exalted, BTW, which is entirely the other side of the coin. I like light games like Risus and d4-d4, and I like JAGS. There's a whole world inbetween. Every game has a range of applicability where it shines, and big areas where it struggles and tends to fail. I recommend systems and games based on how suited they are for the concept and flavor the person asking is going for. No game covers everything, though some cover bigger areas than others.

-clash

Flyingmice hits exactly why I did decide to comment on Wushu. Its ubiquity.

Ironically, the very thing I might be tempted to use Wushu for is already taken.

Wushu strikes me as a perfect game to take with you on the go and in your head for pickup games with people when you've got a few hours to kill. The rules are simple enough to memorize, it only requires a few dice... both common and easily available in many places if you forget yours, and it's fast.

For that, however, I already have 'There is No Spoon' memorized.