I'm interested in running some Far West games at some point. I really like Aces & Eights, but I'm not sure I want that level of detail in both rules and setting. I would like something with more room for me to breathe in and out of game play, without running something like the Weird West RPG.
So, I want to take a(nother) serious look at Boot Hill. How does it work? Is it similar to OD&D in terms of weight and detail of the rules? Do I need miniatures to play it? Let me know.
If I recall correctly, the first version was pretty much an old-west themed wargame, but on more of an individual scale rather than squad-level. The second (or third?) version was more of an RPG, but not by much. The later version is probably closer to OD&D. Very little interstitial details, but buying equipment and shooting NPCs are covered well enough.
You sure you don't want to use Deadlands? It's one of my favorite games. I can't tell you anything of value about Boot Hill, sorry. I would check out Stormie's site for a start because somewhere there's a link to a site that has every game ever made by genre.
Boot Hill is more like TFT's Melee and Wizard than a proper rpg. Or perhaps more to the point =][=nquisitor. Shotguns have a huge scatter diagram that doesn't really reflect shotgun scatter. There's a wide range of specific weapon types but rather than making say a "colt peace maker" they've got a long barrelled single action revolver though Boot hill doesn't differentiate between cap and ball and cartridge.
So, it depends on what you're after, combat stats for Jesse James, train robberies and the like are all in there or at least in the modules but if you're looking for a treatise on the old west as a setting or discussion of the ecology and society you'll be disappointed.
If you want your Western game to be at least as detailed a campaign as you can get in AD&D by using all the stuff out of the DMG, then you want Aces & Eights. Personally, I would take a look at Hackmaster Basic and retool the skill system to be compatible with that (one of the more popular House Rules).
As far as Boot Hill goes, it's more like Chainmail then OD&D. It's a man-to-man scale wargame with stuff to make a campaign out of. Both the first and second edition of Boot Hill were released in the 70's. I never got the 3rd Edition by Steve Winter, but from what I understand it added a basic skill system.
Anything Coyote Trail is great for information on the Old West no matter what system you use, as of course are the sourcebooks by Gurps and Rolemaster. Gunslingers! is pretty good too.
If you want Weird West, there's simply nothing better then Deadlands. Feel free to dial up or down the laughtrack to taste, the system just rocks.
You love models, so definitely get Whitewash City and make your own miniature-sized town.
If you want to do skirmish wargaming with a Western theme, Legends of the Old West by Games Workshop is the gold standard.
Knuckleduster Cowtown Creator and Knuckleduster Firearms Shop are great resources as well. Good luck finding the Firearms Shop.
and Marleycat loving Deadlands means all that Fantasycraft and Wizard at-will stuff is just washed away. :D
Quote from: CRKrueger;557743and Marleycat loving Deadlands means all that Fantasycraft and Wizard at-will stuff is just washed away. :D
Hey! It really is one of my favorite games regardless. Where else do you get to actually play 5 card stud when playing a magic user? Another reason is that my preferred games are horror and urban fantasy. For years I never looked at Dnd instead playing White Wolf, Kult, UA, Witchcraft ......Deadlands was practically my gateway to all those games and the genre itself.
You had a Hexslinging Law Dog didn't you?
Quote from: CRKrueger;557751You had a Hexslinging Law Dog didn't you?
Hee Hee. I prefer cats and Pinkerton's. ;)
Boot Hill 1st edition is what has been described by others above.
I'd suggest the OP might want to take a look at Boot Hill 3rd edition. It's an RPG rather than a minis wargame. No classes/levels, has 5 basic stats, and skills that can be bought/increased with XP, so you can just build your character however you like. Gun combat is pretty quick and very unforgiving and having a good value in the Luck stat increases your odds of surviving a kill shot, though 50% is the best odds you could get to. Combat deadliness can be easily dialled up or down and my group had a house rule of True Grit points that were used when lady luck had deserted us.
My group played several western campaigns using Boot Hill 3e that we still talk about and it'd be our first choice again for western gaming. I've heard it's pretty hard to find now.
Sidewinder D20 was a good western RPG if you are looking for a non-fantasy old west. But if you want six shooters vs. bogeymen, Deadlands does the job.
played a few sessions of 2nd edition boot hill years ago. never did any campaigns with it.
had no idea there was a 3rd edition. may have to check that out if i can find it cheap.
Love me some boot hill not sure what edition i have think 2 (box set brown book mapbof dodge loads of counters. ) . We played it mostly as a scirmish game but ran campaigns as well.
I like the "western shootout skirmish game" approach to Boot Hill. That's what I want out of a western game, anyway: shootouts that run all over town, across the rooftops, through windows, et cetera. I'm not keen on role-playing a big western campaign, so the "scenario/shootout" approach seems just right.
Quote from: gale_wolf;557778Boot Hill 1st edition is what has been described by others above.
I'd suggest the OP might want to take a look at Boot Hill 3rd edition. It's an RPG rather than a minis wargame. No classes/levels, has 5 basic stats, and skills that can be bought/increased with XP, so you can just build your character however you like. Gun combat is pretty quick and very unforgiving and having a good value in the Luck stat increases your odds of surviving a kill shot, though 50% is the best odds you could get to. Combat deadliness can be easily dialled up or down and my group had a house rule of True Grit points that were used when lady luck had deserted us.
My group played several western campaigns using Boot Hill 3e that we still talk about and it'd be our first choice again for western gaming. I've heard it's pretty hard to find now.
With your description, I now recall 3rd Edition is the one I played a thousand years ago. It was fun, but westerns were never much my thing. Same with Gangbusters, fun system, but also not my genre.
Quote from: Benoist;557687So, I want to take a(nother) serious look at Boot Hill. How does it work?
2e? Six attributes for characters - Speed, Gun Accuracy, Throwing Accuracy (knives, lariats, whiskey bottles), Bravery, Strength, and Experience. Speed, Bravery, and the weapon speed determine your speed and who shoots first in a round; Accuracy, Bravery, and Experience determine if you hit anything.
Experience is measured in gunfights survived.
The basic gunfight rules are fast and deadly. There are three kinds of wounds: light, serious, and mortal. One shot, one kill. Head wounds are fatal 60% of the time. There are advanced and optional rules which increases the complexity of gunfighting, such as trading shots, sniping,
&c. Wounds make you slower and less accurate so there's a death spiral.
The campaign rules are mostly advice, though they do cover stuff like how far and fast you can ride (depends on the quality of your horse), gambling, tracking, what you get paid for your job. Oh, and dynamite and Gatling guns, 'cause, y'know, DYNAMITE and GATLING GUNS.
Quote from: Benoist;557687Is it similar to OD&D in terms of weight and detail of the rules?
The basic, advanced, and optional rules together cover about ten or twelve pages. The campaign rules are a half-dozen more.
Quote from: Benoist;557687Do I need miniatures to play it?
You could do it without, but I always use either the counters or metal minis on the grid.
Long story short: the analogy that someone drew upthread with
Chainmail is apt. That said, Dave Arneson and friends seemed to have a damn good time playing with
Chainmail.
2e
Boot Hill remains one of my favorite roleplaying games. I ran it last year at the SoCal MiniCon and I would gladly run it again as a campaign if the opportunity presented itself.
I don't remember 2e very well but it sounds as though 3e is more RPG-ish than minis-gamey (and released about 10 years after 2e).
I've also read that 3e includes and updates the contents of several of TSR's old magazine articles that were done for 2e.
You can certainly use 3e's combat system for shootouts using minis, though minis are not required (as stated in the "what you need to play this game" section).
3e has a double-sided pull-out which has area and town maps on it. The town map is overlaid with a grid which was useful with the 1:72 scale western figures that we had.
BTW 3e is a book only, not a boxed set.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa226/gale_wolf/boothill3e.jpg)
I love Aces & Eights but like the OP recognize that its just too fiddly. I wish they'd done a proper simpler version of it.
RPGPundit
I don't know much about Boot hill, but I think what you really want is Spell Jammer, I could hardly imagine anything more perfect for gritty western action.
Quote from: Gib;558346I don't know much about Boot hill, but I think what you really want is Spell Jammer, I could hardly imagine anything more perfect for gritty western action.
except for the magic deer sheriff of blue rose. . . ;)
I played campaigns using the 1st edition rules, and would highly recommend giving it a try if you can track down a copy.
It's important to remember that D&D did not emerge from a vacuum. At the time it developed, 'skirmish wargaming' was hugely popular. In the UK, the Old West Skirmish rules predated D&D, and contained many elements that would later evolve in D&D into tabletop role-playing as we know it today. 'Wargames Newsletter', a semi-pro wargames magazine that EGG contributed too and certainly read, included several articles about the Old West Skirmish rules. At about the same time, TSR put out Boot Hill, which was similar in scope and concept to the Old West Skirmish rules.
In my own game group, we skirmish wargamed before we role-played. In our skirmish wargames we each had a character that represented us in the campaign, and who grew in skill as the campaign progressed. We would take it in turns to come up with a story that linked our last game to the next one, creative an ongoing narrative to the campaign. Sometimes this would lead to small off-shoot games that weren't skirmish wargames as such, but were important as part of the background story. For example, I can remember one session where we played poker (in real life), and then used the game rules to resolve the gunfight that happened when one of the players was caught cheating.
When OD&D turned up, it was a natural transition from our skirmish wargames, and we loved it straight away. Elements of D&D leached into our skirmish games, and vice-versa. It was a blast!
Anyway, if you want to get a feel for what was going on in the wargames hobby, and the kind of game that was being played that D&D grew out from, then 1st edition Boot Hill is the way to go (or, even better, the Old West Skirmish Wargame rules – we used an unholy amalgam of the two). The later editions of Boot Hill are fine, but by then the rules had changed to become 'just another rpg', IMO, anyway.
I played campaigns using the 1st edition rules, and would highly recommend giving it a try if you can track down a copy.
It's important to remember that D&D did not emerge from a vacuum. At the time it developed, 'skirmish wargaming' was hugely popular. In the UK, the Old West Skirmish rules predated D&D, and contained many elements that would later evolve in D&D into tabletop role-playing as we know it today. 'Wargames Newsletter', a semi-pro wargames magazine that EGG contributed too and certainly read, included several articles about the Old West Skirmish rules. At about the same time, TSR put out Boot Hill, which was similar in scope and concept to the Old West Skirmish rules.
In my own game group, we skirmish wargamed before we role-played. In our skirmish wargames we each had a character that represented us in the campaign, and who grew in skill as the campaign progressed. We would take it in turns to come up with a story that linked our last game to the next one, creative an ongoing narrative to the campaign. Sometimes this would lead to small off-shoot games that weren't skirmish wargames as such, but were important as part of the background story. For example, I can remember one session where we played poker (in real life), and then used the game rules to resolve the gunfight that happened when one of the players was caught cheating.
When OD&D turned up, it was a natural transition from our skirmish wargames, and we loved it straight away. Elements of D&D leached into our skirmish games, and vice-versa. It was a blast!
Anyway, if you want to get a feel for what was going on in the wargames hobby, and the kind of game that was being played that D&D grew out from, then 1st edition Boot Hill is the way to go (or, even better, the Old West Skirmish Wargame rules – we used an unholy amalgam of the two). The later editions of Boot Hill are fine, but by then the rules had changed to become 'just another rpg', IMO, anyway.
Quote from: Glazer;558385Anyway, if you want to get a feel for what was going on in the wargames hobby, and the kind of game that was being played that D&D grew out from, then 1st edition Boot Hill is the way to go (or, even better, the Old West Skirmish Wargame rules – we used an unholy amalgam of the two). The later editions of Boot Hill are fine, but by then the rules had changed to become 'just another rpg', IMO, anyway.
Are you referring to this game (http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/18154/the-old-west-skirmish-rules-1816-1900)? Written by no less than the unparalleled Col Lou Zocchi?
Quote from: StormBringer;558447Are you referring to this game (http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/18154/the-old-west-skirmish-rules-1816-1900)? Written by no less than the unparalleled Col Lou Zocchi?
I am, but Lou Zocchi was neither the writter nor (as listed in your link) the publisher. The rules were written and published by Mike Blake, Ian Colwill and Steve Curtis. I assume they were distibuted in the USA by Lou Zocchi.
As an aside, the rulebook shown in your link is a later edition of the game. The first version came out a few years earlier.
Quote from: Glazer;558455I am, but Lou Zocchi was neither the writter nor (as listed in your link) the publisher. The rules were written and published by Mike Blake, Ian Colwill and Steve Curtis. I assume they were distibuted in the USA by Lou Zocchi.
As an aside, the rulebook shown in your link is a later edition of the game. The first version came out a few years earlier.
You are correct, sir! I misread that. The presentation style on BGG could use a bit of work. It does indeed list the three individuals you mention as the designers.
I'll add my recommendation for the old "skirmish wargame" version of Boot Hill. It was my go-to Western game for YEARS. I had the 2nd edition-- the boxed set from the late 70s/early 80s:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/3/35/BootHill.jpg/230px-BootHill.jpg)
It covered in detail the combat stuff, and anything else we needed (character backgrounds, non-combat skills, etc.) we handled in an almost diceless fashion. It was great.
Proved to me that it was possible, with the right players, to run a lengthy, enjoyable campaign game with only a 36-page rulebook.
Man, lots of great suggestions and POVs for me to chew on. Thanks for the feedback, it's really useful. It sounds to me like I'll have to track down both 1e and 2e Boot Hill at least, and have a look at the Skirmish game Glazer talked about.
Awesome.
Quote from: RPGPundit;558300I love Aces & Eights but like the OP recognize that its just too fiddly. I wish they'd done a proper simpler version of it.
RPGPundit
Agreed. I really like the game, but it's just too much for what I have in mind.
Quote from: Gib;558346I don't know much about Boot hill, but I think what you really want is Spell Jammer, I could hardly imagine anything more perfect for gritty western action.
I have the Spelljammer boxed set and love it. Played some really gonzo games with it back in the day, and would do it again any time. It's really one of my favorite "out there" D&D settings, as a matter of fact.
Actually I played tons of BH 2e back inthe early 80's. It is the perfect game for middle-school boys. All we did was rob, betray and murder one another.
Quote from: Gib;558484Actually I played tons of BH 2e back inthe early 80's. It is the perfect game for middle-school boys. All we did was rob, betray and murder one another.
sounds like a fair number of our traveller games back in the 80s/90s
I know that up-thread I said I mostly thought of Boot Hill as a scenario/skirmish game, but thinking about it in terms of Traveller I can see how it would work for a campaign, too.
Random thought and probably way off topic. But since Spelljammer was mentioned, what about Space 1889? Would that be too Victorian?
Quote from: Benoist;558480Agreed. I really like the game, but it's just too much for what I have in mind.
Yeah, its a pity that their "basic" rules are too basic and lame; while the challenge of trying to pick-and-choose mechanics to try to get some kind of intermediate stage is too daunting (for me at least).
RPGPundit
Quote from: Benoist;558480Agreed. I really like the game, but it's just too much for what I have in mind.
What about . . .
(http://www.trollandtoad.com/images/products/pictures/376346.jpg)
Info and a review links:
http://www.roninarts.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=490
http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/13/13601.phtml
Never heard of it until just now.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Marleycat;558562Random thought and probably way off topic. But since Spelljammer was mentioned, what about Space 1889? Would that be too Victorian?
The occasions that I ran Western adventures were under Traveller. So, the rules aren't a problem for Space 1889, though it is similar to MegaTraveller rather than Traveller. If one wanted to have fantastic elements in a Western, there certainly is a lot of examples of that in the old Western serials and much later television shows. The Victorian Britain focus of the game was not an alien world to everyone living in the West after all. ha I am reminded of Study in Scarlet where Holmes focuses on the West of the United States. So, even Holmes was brought into a Western story.
So often back in the day all the fantasy campaigns I was involved with had towns and villages that always gravitated toward the old West type of town. It always made it seem redundant to actually play a Western game too. This was probably a cultural thing, for sure.
One of the problems I saw with Western games was that they focused on things that anyone of us could have done that day rather than play a game imagining it. I mean, if you wanted to go range some cattle and all, you certain could get some hand work done, then there is hunting, prospecting, etc. It always seemed to need fantastic elements or one would just approach the setting the same as any modern one.
Quote from: Kuroth;559583One of the problems I saw with Western games was that they focused on things that anyone of us could have done that day rather than play a game imagining it. I mean, if you wanted to go range some cattle and all, you certain could get some hand work done, then there is hunting, prospecting, etc. It always seemed to need fantastic elements or one would just approach the setting the same as any modern one.
That was my gig, too. I didn't grow up watching Westerns, or being seeped in this romantic cowboy culture, so the idea of playing Six-guns and Stagecoaches never appealed to me on its own merits. I think we played about four sessions of Boothill back in the day before abandoning it for Star Frontiers and Marvel Supers.
Quote from: RPGPundit;559325Never heard of it until just now.
RPGPundit
Likewise. What is it like?
Quote from: Benoist;559708Likewise. What is it like?
Read this review: http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/13/13601.phtml
Quote from: StormBringer;559707That was my gig, too. I didn't grow up watching Westerns, or being seeped in this romantic cowboy culture, so the idea of playing Six-guns and Stagecoaches never appealed to me on its own merits. I think we played about four sessions of Boothill back in the day before abandoning it for Star Frontiers and Marvel Supers.
yep, that's me, too. eastwood flicks are fun, and make for inspirational one-shots, but western campaigns just never floated my boat.
Quote from: vgunn;559715Read this review: http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/13/13601.phtml
It sounds interesting. Have you played it yourself?
Quote from: beeber;559725yep, that's me, too. eastwood flicks are fun, and make for inspirational one-shots, but western campaigns just never floated my boat.
The Red Steel campaign for AD&D 2nd did that to me. I thought it would be this cool add-on with a different kind of magic/magic items, but it ended up being Dances with Worgs. Blech. Still, the 'cinnabar' idea was pretty cool, I might expand on that if I get to writing again.
Quote from: Benoist;559726It sounds interesting. Have you played it yourself?
I haven't had the chance to. From what I've read, its going to give you a quick and easy type of game. Not sure about long-term play. For the price, don't think it would be a bad pick-up.
Boot Hill remains the only TSR game I never bought and never played growing up. For some reason all the stores in my area had stacks of boxes of D&D, Top Secret, Gamma World, Star Frontiers, Marvel Supers, Gangbusters, and even Dawn Patrol, but all I ever saw for Boot Hill were a couple of modules.
From what I later saw of the old editions, it was mostly a skirmish game (as others have mentioned). Kind of along the lines of Dawn Patrol (sure, you could throw some RPG elements into it).
If I was going to do a Western campaign (despite my dislike for straight Westerns and lack of ideas for how to extend one into a campaign), I'd probably go with the GURPS Old West book.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;557918The basic gunfight rules are fast and deadly. There are three kinds of wounds: light, serious, and mortal. One shot, one kill. Head wounds are fatal 60% of the time. There are advanced and optional rules which increases the complexity of gunfighting, such as trading shots, sniping, &c. Wounds make you slower and less accurate so there's a death spiral.
The campaign rules are mostly advice, though they do cover stuff like how far and fast you can ride (depends on the quality of your horse), gambling, tracking, what you get paid for your job. Oh, and dynamite and Gatling guns, 'cause, y'know, DYNAMITE and GATLING GUNS.
It makes quick-draw that much more important.
JG
Quote from: James Gillen;560605It makes quick-draw that much more important.
JG
and weapon speed! i seem to recall BH having those stats, too
Boot Hill is a nice system as noted the combat is deadly. I've only gotten a hold of it recently and never got a chance to play it back in the day. The big issue is the non-combat sections have enough holes in it to make swiss cheese.
The 3rd edition rules are nice but are different using mainly the d6 and d20.
All in all BH is what it is: a minis game with some vestigial RPG elements bolted on. Its still cool none-the-less.
Oh yeah, hello all.
Welcome to the RPG Site Willmark. Thanks for your input. :)