Quote from: Ladybird;707051Nah, there's been better, for solo play. The "guns and conversation" games of the recent generation (Notably Alpha Protocol, but also Dragon Age, Mass Effect and modern Fallout) have pulled off the roleplaying aspect quite well; okay, so it's mainly evidenced through the talky sections (You could legitimately argue that their gameplay structure is choose-your-own-adventure with skill checks rather than SKILL checks), but it can be done very well.

Elona, an open-world sandbox roguelike, is also a bit of a favourite of mine. But it's one of those games where you go out and make your own fun.

There's plenty more to computer games beyond the megahits.

I was referring to CRPGs that people tried to use as a direct substitute for tabletop RPGs.

As for the appeal of CRPGs in general, my opinion is that software publishers figured out how to make compelling drama out of them. I played a lot of MMORPGs since Ultima Online camd out and MUDs before that. But didn't try a top of line game until Call of Duty Modern Warfare. And my reaction was wow was fun in its own way. Since then I played a few more including Dragon Age Origins. I don't play them exclusively but the better ones are a nice diversion from time to time in a similar way to a good tv show or movie.  And like shows some are good, some are a matter of taste, and some just suck.

And I am aware of the stuff beyond the mass market releases.

Quote from: Ladybird;707051Yeah, why aren't all RPG companies ran by billionaire marketing experts, who don't mind throwing it all into a bottomless money pit with no guarantee of return? Just not trying hard enough, if you ask me.

This doesn't even make sense. You're saying that only billionaire marketing experts can figure out that you need to promote your product's unique advantages? Or that it would take billions to market these products? Neither of those are even remotely true.

TTRPGs have unique advantages. Nowhere and never have these been promoted, although I think Wizards ran an advert about "you may as well pretend to be an elf with your friends in the same room" or something once. That only barely touches on the social aspects (which themselves are not unique, you can sit around with your friends watching TV if you want). There's a great deal more to the allure of RPGs which cannot be found anywhere else.

Quote from: Glazer;707052...

I think it better to just to accept that ttrpging is an increasingly small niche of the larger role-playing hobby, and that no amount of name-changing or marketing is going to change that.

This is quite the wild-assed collection of assertions and assumptions. It was good for a laugh though.

Quote from: Glazer;707052The more important question is why crpgs are more popular than ttrpgs, and I don't think it is because of a failure to 'aggressively market the advantages' of a ttrpg over a crpg. Apart from anything else, such an approach has been tried, and failed. A secondary question is why have board games remained popular in the face of computer games, while ttrpgs have become marginalised.

CCRPGs are more popular is because since Half-Life and similar games the software publishers had figured out how to use them to tell a compelling interactive story with a included game. That they figured out how to play the passive mode of watching something with a fun game.

Don't take this as a statement that CRPGs are somehow superior or every one is good. Like movies some are great, some are a matter of taste, and some just suck. What it does mean that a new form of entertainment has been developed and people have begun to master it.

And because CRPGs are designed for the most part to be enjoyed on their own at the user's own pace they have an advantage over tabletop RPGs. Because they are more passive they can control the experience better for a larger group of people. Finally they are the result of a large group of people collaborating together with all its advantages and disadvantages. The main advantage that each person can work on the area they are best at rather than have to be the renaissance man a tabletop referee is expected to be.

Quote from: Glazer;707052It's hard to see how ttrpgs can replicate any of the success of board games - they are just not different enough to pull it off.

I think what is successful for tabletop roleplaying has to be largely developed from within the game itself not try to make it something else. Virtual tabletops in my opinion are hugely successful addition to Tabletop RPGs. Because they don't try to substitute the essential elements like Adventure style games, MUDS, MUSHs, and MMORPGs, did.

My bet is that the spread of tablet, smart phones, and last smart surfaces is what will make RPGs far more accessible. Doesn't have to involve the virtual equivalent of miniatures either. More like the automation of the mechanics and character sheets.

For example imagine a group of six people with tablets, five with a D&D character sheet using rules similar to classic D&D, and the referee has a master app that all the sheets connect to.

Without using miniatures, the referee can drag a couple of skeletons onto his combat tracker and ask everybody to roll initiative. The players hit the initiative button the software will add in all the modifier and let the player and referee now the result of the roll.  Or to be more fancy you can roll physical dice on a smart surface, indicate it is for initiative and then it is transmitted.

Then the tracker is used to determine who turn is up. If it is an automated action, the button is pressed or the dice is rolled. There will be probably be a general action button which just a dice roll and modifier the result is interpreted by the referee.


The main difference is that the mechanics which had to be remembered by the group are now automated. However unlike CRPGs, everything is still under the control of the participants. Likely some games will go overboard, like D&D 4e, and be too much of a wargame. However the most successful will stick to basic time tested mechanics.

Quote from: The Traveller;707064There's a great deal more to the allure of RPGs which cannot be found anywhere else.

The one that needs to hammered on is that because of the imagination of the human referee literally anything can be attempted by the player and quickly resolved.

This is the sole characteristic that is unique to Tabletop Roleplaying and what sets is apart from all the other forms of roleplaying games and board games.

Quote from: flyerfan1991;707054But if we're going to distinguish whether you can or can't roleplay in a CRPG, we're going to have to also point out that there are plenty of people who don't roleplay in a TTRPG either.

Many equate roleplaying with acting as a different person. While roleplaying can involve that, I feel all that required to properly roleplay is to act as if you were really there with the capability of the character. It doesn't matter if the character "personality" is just a reflection of your own or a completely different than from your own.

Roleplaying games are not about acting in a role, but experiencing a situation as a character. If you do act then you are acting while experience the situation as that character.

Quote from: estar;707070The one that needs to hammered on is that because of the imagination of the human referee literally anything can be attempted by the player and quickly resolved.

This is the sole characteristic that is unique to Tabletop Roleplaying and what sets is apart from all the other forms of roleplaying games and board games.

Indeed. It gives adults permission to play make believe again, and a lot of people don't appreciate just how primal and powerful a vein that is to tap.

Quote from: Glazer;707052I think the answer is that, bitter as the pill may be to swallow, crpgs and mmos offer most of what people are looking for in an rpg,

No.  They offer NOTHING in the form of an RPG.  A game of chess offers more.  What they offer is a computer game.    Which table top RPG's AREN'T.    If you were to survey broadly, MORE people (by a HUGE %) play video games rather than sit around a table playing ANY non computer game with other people.  So, the bitter pil is that more people would rather play a computer game than a game of Sorry at the dining room table with their friends.

Done.

Quote from: estar;707072Many equate roleplaying with acting as a different person. While roleplaying can involve that, I feel all that required to properly roleplay is to act as if you were really there with the capability of the character. It doesn't matter if the character "personality" is just a reflection of your own or a completely different than from your own.

Roleplaying games are not about acting in a role, but experiencing a situation as a character. If you do act then you are acting while experience the situation as that character.

Even playing as yourself counts as roleplaying in my book.  I mean those who just play a TTRPG as if it were a boardgame or a bunch of stats to "win" against.

Quote from: flyerfan1991;707053A whirlybird is what falls off of a maple tree in the Spring.

Exactly.

One reason PC games are all over the place is they are cheaper to press than an RPG book. Though usually not easier to write.

And increasingly people have a computer, whereas finding a gaming group, or more aptly, a viable gaming group is sometimes very very hard.

This is why MUDs caught on for so long. They allowed adventuring and even actual Role Playing without having to struggle finding a gaming group.

But allways there will be people who prefer the feel of actual socializing and playing with people. Same for board games.

Quote from: flyerfan1991;707053A whirlybird is what falls off of a maple tree in the Spring.

A Blackhawk Helo is nothing but a downrated Seahawk Helo.

(Former collateral duty Purple Shirt Helo Refueling Crewman on the Frigate Flight Deck).

Quote from: The Traveller;707064This doesn't even make sense. You're saying that only billionaire marketing experts can figure out that you need to promote your product's unique advantages? Or that it would take billions to market these products? Neither of those are even remotely true.

Nobody's doing it, because outside of a few of the biggest names in the market, nobody has the money for it... and for the few companies that do, it's evidently a better return to promote their own products, rather than their competitors (And anyway, how many companies actually advertise the market they're in, rather than their own products? Not many!). Nobody has the money to set up an "RPG trade organisation" to do it, because nobody has any money anyway, and roleplayers form pissy little communities who throw a strop about anyone who doesn't like to play in the exact same way they do.

Now, the community has money to spend, but due to a race-to-the-bottom in terms of pricing, and an influx of fanbois who will happily write for free (And devalue the work of everyone else while they're at it), they're unwilling to spend what their books are actually worth. Sure, a kickstarter will make a big number, but actual profits? Nah, not much.

QuoteTTRPGs have unique advantages. Nowhere and never have these been promoted, although I think Wizards ran an advert about "you may as well pretend to be an elf with your friends in the same room" or something once. That only barely touches on the social aspects (which themselves are not unique, you can sit around with your friends watching TV if you want). There's a great deal more to the allure of RPGs which cannot be found anywhere else.

I know that, you know that, and everyone here knows it.

Nobody has the money to preach it beyond the roleplaying "community".

Quote from: Ladybird;707106Nobody's doing it, because outside of a few of the biggest names in the market, nobody has the money for it... and for the few companies that do, it's evidently a better return to promote their own products, rather than their competitors (And anyway, how many companies actually advertise the market they're in, rather than their own products? Not many!).

Eh, this isn't the 1970s anymore, you don't need to take out a full page ad in the Times to get the word out about something. Even the bare fact of say the guys working on D&D Next declaring they're no longer working on a roleplaying game but a * game would create seismic ripples throughout the internet.

Saying it's because they're tired of being confused with CRPGs would multiply the effect considerably, with legions of butthurt computer gamers queuing up to register complaints. It's not that hard to get people to do your marketing for you if you play it right, hence viral videos. One press release, a bit of editing, and the ball would be rolling.

A concerted industry effort would be very difficult to orchestrate but it would be very effective.

Quote from: Ladybird;707106And devalue the work of everyone else while they're at it

If you're competing on price in any entertainment business, you're doing it very wrong.

Quote from: Ladybird;707106Sure, a kickstarter will make a big number, but actual profits? Nah, not much.

Some KSs ran into problems because they didn't work out things like shipping costs beforehand. The majority of them do indeed make a keen profit. Otherwise there'd be little point in running them.

If you feel that strongly about the issue Traveller, why not contact WOTC with your suggestion. Mike Mearls responds to a lot of direct emails or PMs. You can probably sound out the notion on him and see what he says. Same with guys like Cook. It would be pretty easy for you to contact all the major industry leaders with this idea. If it has legs, you could get the ball rolling.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;707113If you feel that strongly about the issue Traveller, why not contact WOTC with your suggestion. Mike Mearls responds to a lot of direct emails or PMs. You can probably sound out the notion on him and see what he says. Same with guys like Cook. It would be pretty easy for you to contact all the major industry leaders with this idea. If it has legs, you could get the ball rolling.

That's a good point Brendan, so that's what I'll do. Of course El Pundero is actually working as a consultant on D&D at the moment, no harm if he could bend an ear or two...