This thread has made me take a closer look at SWN. And it is indeed a brilliant book.

While I loved running Traveller (with a homebrewed setting -- I dig the OTU but I love creating my own settings. I even integrated some SWN Mandate Archive material), it's been kind of a hard sell in my group; some liked it, some didn't, and I dare say no one enjoyed it as much as I did.

I really want to run a hard SF game one of these days, and since SWN is built on a D&D chassis, it might be easier for my players to buy in. I don't get a particularly hard SF vibe from the default setting, which does put quite a bit of emphasis on psionics (which I did not use at all in my Traveller game), though I suppose it can be circumvened or toned down with a bit of work.

So, the question is: what sort of game would you run with Traveller, that you wouldn't or couldn't run with SWN? (and vice versa)

Quote from: The Butcher;529693So, the question is: what sort of game would you run with Traveller, that you wouldn't or couldn't run with SWN? (and vice versa)

I don't think there is such a game, mate. Both are highly compatible.

Quote from: Imperator;529712I don't think there is such a game, mate. Both are highly compatible.

Let me put it this way. You're prepping a Traveller game, right? Why aren't you prepping a SWN game?

I do realize that the answer might be as circumstantial as "because I picked up a ton of awesome Classic Traveller material real cheap, and I want to use without the fuss of converting over." But I'd like to hear what it is that make people pick one above the other (I also realize that Traveller being older and far more entrenched will probably heavily skew opinions on its favor).

I tend to see rulesets as tools, and I'm always on the lookout for new tools. Sometimes I already have a tool for the job, but I'll pick up a new one because it looks better, or just because it's pretty. I'm fickle like that.

Quote from: The Butcher;529806Let me put it this way. You're prepping a Traveller game, right? Why aren't you prepping a SWN game?

I do realize that the answer might be as circumstantial as "because I picked up a ton of awesome Classic Traveller material real cheap, and I want to use without the fuss of converting over." But I'd like to hear what it is that make people pick one above the other (I also realize that Traveller being older and far more entrenched will probably heavily skew opinions on its favor).

I tend to see rulesets as tools, and I'm always on the lookout for new tools. Sometimes I already have a tool for the job, but I'll pick up a new one because it looks better, or just because it's pretty. I'm fickle like that.

OK, I'll bite.

We chose Traveller for similar reasons to James M trying OD&D. We want to experience the ur-game of sci-fi, and buid from there. In our case it is just motivated because of the game's age.

Quote from: Imperator;529872OK, I'll bite.

We chose Traveller for similar reasons to James M trying OD&D. We want to experience the ur-game of sci-fi, and buid from there. In our case it is just motivated because of the game's age.

That's a good one; it was my reason for running Traveller, some time ago (I used MT, though, which probably invalidates the experiemnt for the more dyedin-the-wool grognards).

I'll be very interested in hearing your opinion once you've got a few sessions under your belt.

Quote from: The Butcher;529894That's a good one; it was my reason for running Traveller, some time ago (I used MT, though, which probably invalidates the experiemnt for the more dyedin-the-wool grognards).

I'll be very interested in hearing your opinion once you've got a few sessions under your belt.

Sure, mate.

I tried to read the book 2, about spaceships. Fucking shit, it's mind-boggling. I blacked out tried to reading it XD

Here's a short rundown. I'll edit this post as things ocur to me.

Things I like about Traveller:

Random character generation.

A system which rewards highly skilled, often highly educated characters, in accordance with classic SF custom. The jump mechanics are a great example of this, showing the role skill and education play on something most space opera games just gloss over, which is actually pretty badass (breaking the speed limit of the fucking Universe).

The harsh physics of space paraded in all their deadly glory.

The wealth of subsystems for world generation.

An immediate hook for adventure: paying the ship's mortgage.

A new setting, 2300AD, which at first sight ticks a lot of the right boxes for me.

Things I dislike about Traveller:

The OTU. It's too distant from the present to draw any obvious (in-game) connections to our history, not to mention 35 years of setting cruft.

The space-operatic aliens. (I am getting 2300AD mostly for the aliens)

The emphasis on free trading to the detriment of other adventuring possibilities.

Some of the subsystems are a bit too fiddly (ship building, I'm looking at you)

Things I like about SWN:

The cover of the free PDF.

The addition of an extensive skill system to the OD&D/S&W chassis.

A wealth of subsystems similar to Traveller's in use and output, but much simpler to operate.

The tech.

The little things. (e.g. planetfall stink)

The culture tables at the end, and the sample sector. Their humans feel like Earth humans, exotic yet familiar, and click with me in a way Traveller's sometimes don't.

Things I dislike about SWN:

The class-and-level system. (even when downplayed in favor of skill-based resolution. For an exploration or free-trading game, my ideal crew would be all Experts, maybe one Warrior; the reverse would be true for a milSF game; fuck Psychics)

The emphasis on psionics in the deafult setting. (granted there are guidelines to do away with it)

The space-operatic aliens, again. (mostly the boar-men, actually, and easily reskinned as uplifts. The Zadak are hard SF enough for me, and even the Qotah don't look bad)

Some of the systems are a bit too handwavy. (free trading)

For me, SWN would win by virtue of its fast-and-loose rules. I have a preference for the Traveller career system, but some of Traveller's subsystems, as you wrote, are just too fidlly for me. But again: I am not interested in hard SF - if I ran an SF campaign, it would be something like the Demon Princes novels, easy on the technology and high on cultural quirks and action.

The draw of hard SF, for me, is to challenge a group of players that's mostly unfamiliar with anything other than space opera (Star Trek, Star Wars and B5, to be precise). I want things like radiation and microgravity to be real issues and to impact their actions, their thoughts, their plans. I want to see them use brains before blasters.

[BTW I haven't read Demon Princes yet, but I've meant to, forever.]

Regarding subsystems, expediency is something I treasure, as is elegance in design. But I just love the granularity of Traveller's world generation, and trying to make sense of each number in the UPP and reconciling it all into a cohese idea of a world.

I'd really like to try SWN at some point, but to my shame I never finished it. Once I saw I'd have to buy a supplement to run space dungeons, I got distracted and went on to something else.

Love Traveller though.  Traveller was basically my gateway drug for old school gaming, that and Gamma World.

Between them, jeff of many numbers and RPGPundit have a lot to do with why my next game is what it is...

What is SWN?

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;530358What is SWN?

Stars Without Number.

I ran my players through the Hard Light module (well, most of it; they keep pestering me to let them finish, but we're having a hard time matching schedules), and it's been a lot of fun.  None of us have Traveller experience though, so I can't do the compare-and-contrast thing.

SWN hands down, for me.

RPGPundit

After reading SWN, I have come to the conclusion that it is a child of True20 and Traveller with its stellar cartography borrowing heavily from Traveller. It looks serviceable for science fantasy, but it just doesn't do anything for me. If I want science fantasy, I've got d6 Star Wars.

I have to go with Traveller here. Even if you find some of the early rules in Classic Traveller clumsy (some are), later versions provide options to choose from until you can cobble together a Traveller system to your liking. The vast majority of the background available online for free or cheaply in CD-ROM format from FFE can be used in any edition of Traveller. That is over 35 years worth of game, that is background and rules refinements, available for use.

Plus, I have to admit bias here, I am more familiar and comfortable with Traveller as a game system. Along with a distaste for class/level systems used in science fiction games.

Quote from: jeff37923;530513After reading SWN, I have come to the conclusion that it is a child of True20 and Traveller with its stellar cartography borrowing heavily from Traveller. It looks serviceable for science fantasy, but it just doesn't do anything for me. If I want science fantasy, I've got d6 Star Wars.

I have to go with Traveller here. Even if you find some of the early rules in Classic Traveller clumsy (some are), later versions provide options to choose from until you can cobble together a Traveller system to your liking. The vast majority of the background available online for free or cheaply in CD-ROM format from FFE can be used in any edition of Traveller. That is over 35 years worth of game, that is background and rules refinements, available for use.

Plus, I have to admit bias here, I am more familiar and comfortable with Traveller as a game system. Along with a distaste for class/level systems used in science fiction games.

I can't disagree to a point Jeff, but I'd add that SwN would be a darker and grittier science fantasy, and uses a decent implementation of the class/level system, and includes LOADS of great stuff for world (universe) building that would be usable even with traveller. Plus, the core rule book is free to download... can't beat that for it's tables and sandbox universe running advice alone. I think I'll be more likely to run Trav, but I have gladly bought everything for SwN and will continue to do so, and can see myself running it as well for a slightly different style of sci-fi game than Trav delivers. It would be decent for Stainless Steel Rat type games I'm thinking, where Trav is good for the Niven or Reynolds feel of game.

Reading Pushing Ice by Alistair Reynolds, and it is fucking awesome. Totally making me want to play Trav.