I don't own SW Saga, and doubt very much that I will purchase it (I just don't like Star Wars that much), but based on the previews and what people have said on various RPG fora, it seems to make many changes to d20 that strongly resemble those already made by True 20.
So I'm curious as to the similarities and differences between Saga and True 20. What does Saga do that is the same as, or similar to, True 20? What does it do that is different?
Thanks! :)
It’s been some time since I owned/read True20, so I can’t go into specifics, but I can give an overview.
Saga is much more “gameish” than True20. True 20 focuses more on trying to take the gameish and tactical based elements out of D20 while Saga embraces the gameish aspects of D20.
I think True20 is a bit more “artsy” with its subsystems (especially the damage system), while Saga focuses primarily on keeping it simple and to the point.
True20s character generation system is much more complicated and time consuming than Sagas (but better for people who have the "I hate classes!" bug up thier asses). SWsaga is streamlined, yet classic, D20, Roll abilities, pick race, pick class, pick skills, pick talents, pick feats, and buy equipment.
True20 definitely has a different feel that Saga. Saga emphasizes (or at least implies) cinematic fast paced action play while True20 seems to put action on the backburner and focuses more on the “role” playing angle.
Of course, you can do both with both system. I think they are about the same complexity (with Saga being much simpler in the GM prep department) level. IMHO Saga streamlines, simplifies, and improves on the D20 core, while True20 goes outside the D20 core and creates new subsystems for doing things (point buy character building, damage system, ect.).
That’s just my impressions in a nutshell…make sense?
Probably doesn't help.
True20 went head to head with Savage Worlds for me. Since I like minis and tactical game elements in my games, as well a cinematic fast paced action, True20 never had a chance. Saga is much more like Savage Worlds that True20, despite True20 being OGL.
Grubman, you trying to kill my wallet dude ? First SW-SAGA, now True20. You are Evil :D
Lets see....
-- Saga still uses D&D ability scores (i.e. 3-18, representing a bonus), rather than just the bonus.
-- Although Saga classes are closer to the True20 Roles, there are 5 rather than 3: Jedi, Noble, Scoundrel, Scout, Soldier. Jedi are the closest to Adepts (but with Warrior BAB), Soldier is pretty much the same as Warrior, and Noble/Scount/Scoundrel represent Experts.
-- Saga grants many more ability increases, even given the differences mentioned above.
-- Force points are similar to Conviction
-- Saga's skill system is similar to the abstract nature of True20's skill system -- players don't gain skill ranks, but choose which skills they are trained in. Unlike True20, however, training grants a +5 bonus in the trained skill rather than a level-advancing skill bonus, and characters instead gain 1/2 their level as a blanket bonus to *all* skills -- although they can only perform certain actions if they are trained in the skill.
-- The Force is at once both similar to and wildly different from the Power feat. Most importantly, any class in Star Wars can use the Force, not just Adepts/Jedi; Jedi just happen to train in many special uses of the force.
I know I'm missing something...
Quote from: LacrioxusGrubman, you trying to kill my wallet dude ? First SW-SAGA, now True20. You are Evil :D
Hey! That's not fair, I wasn't selling True20! :P
Do force points still give you a bonus to your D20 roll (like they did in Sw D20?) or do then now allow you a Conviction-points style reroll?
RPGPundit
Either depending on the situation.
Thanks for the overview grubman. :)
Quote from: grubman... Saga emphasizes (or at least implies) cinematic fast paced action play while True20 seems to put action on the backburner and focuses more on the "role" playing angle....
Hmm. Your experience of True20 definitely differs from my own. :raise:
Quote from: grubman... Since I like minis and tactical game elements in my games, as well a cinematic fast paced action, True20 never had a chance. Saga is much more like Savage Worlds that True20, despite True20 being OGL.
Personally, I find the use of minis to somewhat detract from the 'cinematic' nature of a RPG, but YMMV obviously. The minis-dependency is a definite drawback for me.
Thanks for the comparison, ElectroKitty. :)
Quote from: ElectroKittyLets see....
-- Saga still uses D&D ability scores (i.e. 3-18, representing a bonus), rather than just the bonus.
-- Although Saga classes are closer to the True20 Roles, there are 5 rather than 3: Jedi, Noble, Scoundrel, Scout, Soldier. Jedi are the closest to Adepts (but with Warrior BAB), Soldier is pretty much the same as Warrior, and Noble/Scount/Scoundrel represent Experts.
-- Saga grants many more ability increases, even given the differences mentioned above.
-- Force points are similar to Conviction
-- Saga's skill system is similar to the abstract nature of True20's skill system -- players don't gain skill ranks, but choose which skills they are trained in. Unlike True20, however, training grants a +5 bonus in the trained skill rather than a level-advancing skill bonus, and characters instead gain 1/2 their level as a blanket bonus to *all* skills -- although they can only perform certain actions if they are trained in the skill.
-- The Force is at once both similar to and wildly different from the Power feat. Most importantly, any class in Star Wars can use the Force, not just Adepts/Jedi; Jedi just happen to train in many special uses of the force.
I know I'm missing something...
It looks like a wash between the two systems in terms of complexity.
Quote from: AkrasiaHmm. Your experience of True20 definitely differs from my own. :raise:
I'm simply talking actual rules focus, not actual play. Actual play is going to depend on the players and GMs, but True20 definately went out of thier way to get rid of "gamish" (roll) elements from the core D20 system.
Not a bad thing if that's what you like. Me, I like gamish...but I want it quick and simple, which is why Saga (and Savage Worlds) are aces for my personal style of game.
Quote from: AkrasiaSo I'm curious as to the similarities and differences between Saga and True 20. What does Saga do that is the same as, or similar to, True 20? What does it do that is different?
The way that they handle skills vaguely reminds me of the blue rose iteration of True20.
I don't consider that a "good thing".[/i]
On the "difference" note, it seems to me like that talent trees actually make classes meaninful in SW SE.
Quote from: grubmanI'm simply talking actual rules focus, not actual play. Actual play is going to depend on the players and GMs, but True20 definately went out of thier way to get rid of "gamish" (roll) elements from the core D20 system.
Not a bad thing if that's what you like. Me, I like gamish...but I want it quick and simple, which is why Saga (and Savage Worlds) are aces for my personal style of game.
I agree that True20 tones down a lot of the 'gamish' elements of D20. My comment had to do with your claim that True20 doesn't encourage 'cinematic' play.
Unlike you, I think that playing down 'gamish'/tactical elements greatly
enhances 'cinematic' play, rather than detracting from it. Counting squares on a battlemat, determining whether doing x will provoke an AoO, etc., just doesn't scream 'cinematic' to me. YMMV obviously.
Quote from: AkrasiaI agree that True20 tones down a lot of the 'gamish' elements of D20. My comment had to do with your claim that True20 doesn't encourage 'cinematic' play.
Unlike you, I think that playing down 'gamish'/tactical elements greatly enhances 'cinematic' play, rather than detracting from it. Counting squares on a battlemat, determining whether doing x will provoke an AoO, etc., just doesn't scream 'cinematic' to me. YMMV obviously.
Yeah, bad choice of words on my part.
To be fair, SWRPG Saga Edition isn't any more minis-centric than stock d20. The rules text assumes that you will be using official SW minis rather than cardboard counters or coins or stones or action figures, but going minis-free is no more difficult than it was with D&D 3.0.
KoOS
Quote from: King of Old SchoolTo be fair, SWRPG Saga Edition isn't any more minis-centric than stock d20. The rules text assumes that you will be using official SW minis rather than cardboard counters or coins or stones or action figures, but going minis-free is no more difficult than it was with D&D 3.0.
KoOS
True, the difference is SWS assumes and promotes the use of miniatures, instead of suggesting and promoting miniatures like D&D.
It's really a small difference, but I think it's significant in how the game is presented to the "next generation" of gamers.
But it just might be me who views this subtle change as something major in the trend of WotC...which basically represents the "industry" as we know it. Perhaps it's nothing.
Quote from: Caesar SlaadOn the "difference" note, it seems to me like that talent trees actually make classes meaninful in SW SE.
Do you mind expounding on that? Just an abstract description would be fine.
IMO, Saga is like regular d20 with all that stuff that complicates it and does not enhance play. This is what d20 should have been all along.
- Simple Character Generation
- Simple NPC Generation
- Better skill system
- Force rules that make sens and actually feel "jedi Like"
- Condtion track and HP system are cool
Funny enough, I thought the book focused less on minis than straight d20.:confused:
I also think that True 20 is more complex and I don't like the wound track.
Quote from: McrowIMO, Saga is like regular d20 with all that stuff that complicates it and does not enhance play. This is what d20 should have been all along.
Did you mean "without"?
Quote from: KazDo you mind expounding on that? Just an abstract description would be fine.
I'm not sure how abstract I can make my description and still get at what I am talking about. :)
First off, on a basic level the classes operate on a similar level, but the classes are a little more focussed and less generic in SW Saga. So the classes are a little more focussed on roles as they exist in the SW Saga to begin with.
Second, talent trees and class-specific feats in True20 play a similar role. However, whereas you can pick up feats in a chain several levels in a row in True20, talent trees and feats are a different thing in D20, and within a class, you are forced to alternate between talents and feats as you progress in levels.
So in SWSE, you can't just get the bottom of a talent tree, get a few levels in another class, and double back and pick up a higher level talent or feat in the same chain. You are forced to invest in a little of both if you want to progress down the talent and feat chains of a class.
The result is that SWSE, though you do have latitude to make different members of the same class different (there are a variety of feats and talent trees to choose from, after all), you are a little more strongly encouraged to develop your characters laterally.
In True20, it seems as if the classes are merely a mechanism to deliver the appropriate sort of feat to you (and rack up some associated numbers with it.)
Quote from: walkerpDid you mean "without"?
yes, fingers not as fast as mind. :haw:
Those are some slow fucking fingers..
It's a joke, people..
Quote from: grubmanTrue, the difference is SWS assumes and promotes the use of miniatures, instead of suggesting and promoting miniatures like D&D.
It's really a small difference, but I think it's significant in how the game is presented to the "next generation" of gamers.
I don't think it's that significant insofar as D&D 3.5e uses pics of minis in the same way that SW Saga Edition does. If you mean that using pics of cheap pre-painted minis is an interesting innovation for Wizards as a company (as opposed to being something unique to the new SWRPG), then sure. But do I think the small textual difference between SW Saga and D&D 3.5e is significant? No.
KoOS
Quote from: Caesar SlaadI'm not sure how abstract I can make my description and still get at what I am talking about. :)
*SNIP*
Ah, thanks.
So, taking the generic classes of True20 but sharpening them to a point.
Are the feats set up in a similar fashion to the Master Feats in Iron Heroes? (Or anyone who happens to know.)
Quote from: James J SkachThose are some slow fucking fingers.
(http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s279/ElectroKitty/pwned8bit.gif)