TheRPGSite

Hey, everyone! I'm new here, and I've been meaning to sign up with a general forum focused on role-playing games for quite a while, but until now I've just sort of put it off.

A friend of mine started watching Revolution recently, and while neither one of us are crazy about the show, we both agree that the concept has the potential for an interesting game. Essentially the concept is that there was some kind of global blackout. Nobody knows what caused it and if there's anyone alive who knows how to get the power back on, nobody's talking. The game focuses on the collapse of law and government in an age of information and electricity. The first story will be set during the blackout and the events immediately thereafter.

My friend insisted on running it, and after some spitballing I decided on a millitary brat. Sixteen, son of a professional psychologist and a stern father, been on the move his whole life; he's trying to make a long-distance relationship work with this girl who lives up in Tennessee and relies on his smartphone and his X-Box to communicate with everyone he really cares about -- all the friends he's made and had to leave behind.

Anyway, long story short, by the end of the first session my character was awoken by the sound of looters rummaging through his food (despite the signs he'd put out front saying that looters will be shot on site.) He panicked, killed one, wounded another, and negotiated with the last one. The game ended with his little sister freaking out and packing her shit, screaming about how they have to get out of here and crying about how there's a corpse in their home. They have an uncle in Georgia, but they're currently in central Florida, and they have a long walk ahead of them.

Before we start the next session, the GM wants me to flesh out my equipment list. My character lives in a nice house, but the only food and water he has is pretty much limited to some candy and about 20 cans of Chef Boyardee (which he got by trading his dad's shotgun.) We have water too (about three 3 gallon jugs), but it'll be rough to carry.

We have camping gear, duffel bags, lunch boxes, some M-Frame backpacks, and pretty much just about anything you can think of in an upper middle class suburban home. But my character's sister is only fourteen and scrawny, and she won't be able to lug around a whole lot. Also, the GM has made it clear that trying to carry just one of those 3 gallon water jugs would seriously weigh me down, and I need to think about things like sleeping bags, bedrolls, toilet paper...

Any ideas? I'm not much of a camper, but what do I really need to think about? What can my character and his sister reasonably carry, and what should they focus on?

Should be easy enough o do some research.

Just search for survival kits, ready made and it will cover a lot of bases for you.

Simple things like some bleach, hydrogen peroxide etc. Will help you disinfect water and such, Means to make fire tarps, rope or cord etc.

But like I said research 3 or 4 kits and you will have all the basics of survival you need.

QuoteShould be easy enough o do some research.

Honestly, I'd rather poll the boards for suggestions.

In particular, I was curious to see if there are people who are more familiar with camping and survival, or who have an idea of what it's like to lug around an M-Frame, or who might know little tricks that would be familiar to this character, but that aren't really commonly known. Or who could provide suggestions about things people commonly forget about when camping, but are actually really useful.

I'm sure I could go browsing around for articles on camping and hiking or searching through lists of survival gear, but my biggest problem is trying to figure out how to carry it all and what to prioritize.

QuoteSimple things like some bleach, hydrogen peroxide etc. Will help you disinfect water and such, Means to make fire tarps, rope or cord etc.

I thought about that, but I'd probably have to pour the bleach in another, smaller container (as it is, a 3 gallon jug is 25 lbs), and then there's the risk of it leaking all over the inside of the pack if something happens. I thought about maybe taking a pot to boil the water in instead, and maybe some spare shirts to use as filters or makeshift bandages. But it's one of those things where, as much as I'd like to take a laundry list of equipment, there's only so much that can be carried. Even the infantry backpack makes the character a walking target in a city where people are killing each other out of starvation.

As it stands, this is what I'm looking at:

Change of Clothes
Extra socks, white shirts
Canned Food
Water (maybe pour the water into 12 oz bottles and divide it?)
Lighters
Small plastic bag w/ toiletries
Toilet paper
Some heavy-duty garbage bags
Small plastic bag w/ cotton balls
Petrolium Jelly (it's flammable)
Any useful medicine

First Aid Kit?
Maybe a pot?
Maybe a small bottle filled with bleach?

By the time I get down to the last three, it's sketchy how much the pack would weigh, and that's not even considering a bedroll, a pillow, things that you don't strictly need, but that could make life marginally more comfortable. Of course, I could always use the environment to my advantage and not bother with the bedroll or things to sleep on, because he'll most likely be traveling down highways or through parts of cities, where there will be abandoned cars and houses to sleep in.

I thought about loading up a wagon, but that's like hanging up a sign on my back that says "COME ROB ME!"

Sorry about the bad English. I have hiked every summer in Finnish Lapland for fifteen years, so I might know something.

You need:

-something that keeps you warm and dry during nights (sleeping bag, tent and something you put between the ground and you that keeps the coldness and wet of the ground out of you; I use camping mattress, if you don't have one, big plastic works instead)
-good boots and many sets of socks (you will walk a lot)
-many sets of underwear and some detergent (you don't want rashes on your groin area)
-durable clothing
-knife and small axe or machete (and maybe needle and thread), these are your basic tools
-good backbag
-water bottle
-compass and maps
-food and some kind of hunting or fishing gear
-pot and kettle
-lighter, tinder box, matches as much as you can find (these will keep you alive)

There is no need to carry that much water with you. You can drink the water of small streams or if it is not clean water, you can put it in a pot above campfire and put a clean canvas over the pot. When the water boils, steam will condense in canvas. When you squeeze the canvas, you will get clean water out of it. You can also collect rainwater.

Or you can melt the snow or ice, if you know it is frozen from clean water. Don't eat ice or snow. It dehydrates you, because your insestines use water from your body to defreeze the snow.

You don't need pillow.

Lack of food can kill you in weeks.

Lack of water can kill you in days.

Lack of shelter can kill you in hours.

Plan accordingly.

Quote from: Lucid;685949Change of Clothes
Extra socks, white shirts

Layers: nylon base layer (top and bottom), fleece layer, sturdy shell - NO COTTON. Broad-brimmed hat with a drawstring and bandanna to cover your face. Leather work gloves, nylon fleece glove liners. Leather boots, good socks, water shoes for crossing streams and keeping your boots dry.

Quote from: Lucid;685949Canned Food

Much too heavy. Dry food: beans, jerky for protein, crackers for carbs, dried fruit for simple sugars; supplement with fresh vegetable and fish any chance you can get it safely and cleanly.

Quote from: Lucid;685949Water (maybe pour the water into 12 oz bottles and divide it?)

Reliable water filter - every puddle is a water source.

Quote from: Lucid;685949Lighters

Waterproof matches - won't break or run out of fuel.

Quote from: Lucid;685949Small plastic bag w/ toiletries

Toothbrush and dental floss - infections in the mouth can go to your brain and kill you, plus it's hard to stay alive when you can't eat,

Quote from: Lucid;685949Toilet paper

Sticks and leaves.

Quote from: Lucid;685949Some heavy-duty garbage bags

Good call - wind/waterproof shelter.

Quote from: Lucid;685949Small plastic bag w/ cotton balls

Wtf?

Quote from: Lucid;685949Petrolium Jelly (it's flammable)

Diaper rash cream - treats rashes, sunburn, and abrasions, plus the sticks and leaves are gonna make your ass itch.

Quote from: Lucid;685949Any useful medicine

Ibuprofen (not acetaminophen), antihistamine, laxative, antibacterial cream, contraception.

Quote from: Lucid;685949First Aid Kit?

Gauze dressings and bandages, sports wraps, athletic tape; don't waste space on adhesive bandages. Tweezers, scissors, bulb syringe for irrigation,  gloves.

Quote from: Lucid;685949Maybe a pot?

Yes.

Quote from: Lucid;685949Maybe a small bottle filled with bleach?

Rubbing alcohol - safe for skin as a disinfectant.

Quote from: Lucid;685949By the time I get down to the last three, it's sketchy how much the pack would weigh, and that's not even considering a bedroll, a pillow . . .

Sleeping bag, bivvy sack, and a foam mattress - you need to insulate yourself from the ground to sleep warmly. Tarp for ground cloth, wind/rain shelter, emergency blanket.

Light sources - small headlamp, glowsticks for immediate light in emergencies, small candles. Lengths of good nylon line and tubular webbing.

There's some good advice above; let me give you my own list and some of my own thoughts.  I've been camping all my life (including a memorable week in backcountry Maine in January) ...

First, a couple principles to consider.  You're not auto campers here.  You're backpacking teenagers, and you have to travel as lightly as backpacking campers.  Weight is your enemy, and bulk is your enemy.  Cans of ANY kind of food are far too heavy.  Toilet paper is an unacceptable luxury.  Here's a good test for you: get a backpack and load it as full of books as you can manage.  Hoist that on your back.  Pretty heavy, isn't it?  That's about 20-25 lbs max.  The backpacker's rule of thumb is that you should never carry more than 30% of your weight, and go-light backpackers seek to keep their packloads under 25-30 lbs.  I'd say that unless your character and his sister were on their high school cross-country teams, they oughn't be carrying much more than 60 lbs between them.

Second, this is survival here.  Your character absolutely needs to get that shotgun back, THE best close quarters weapon for the combat-inexperienced.  In a breakdown of civilization AND in the middle of settled country, you have to worry a whole lot less about whether you've got bleach to disinfect utensils than of whether the pack of looters the next town over thinks they can gang-rape your sister with impunity.  

Presuming your house has ample camping gear, this is what you take:

* Axe - THE indispensable survival tool.  Yes, this is heavy, but if all you bring is a hatchet, you'll be POed you didn't have an axe.  3 lbs is about the lightest you should manage.  (Bring that 1-lb hatchet too, though.)

* Knife -  The camp knife you want is out of the kitchen, a good strong filleting knife.  Never mind the "survival knives" you see out there, which are perfectly suited to dressing alligators or stabbing looters, but are piss-poor for basic camp tasks: for those, you'll either want a lighter knife or a hatchet.

* A compact first-aid kit, no more than a half pound.  Definitely bring that medical tape, because it has many more uses than medical.

* Leave those garbage bags behind; however "heavy-duty," they rip far too easily.  If your home has camping gear, you have 10x10 blue plastic tarps.  Cut some poles, rig one with rope, that's your shelter.  2 lbs, about.

* Clothing: Black Vulmea's dead right when he advises to leave the cotton behind.  The reason *why* you leave the cotton behind is that cotton (unlike wool) is a terrible insulator when wet, and Florida's not notably dry.  You *don't* want white shirts, if you can manage it: I expect you'd much rather avoid people than have them see you at great distances.

* The classic RPG standard is to carry 50' of rope, but that's rather a lot: you don't need nearly that much.  About half that will serve your needs.  Carry a spool of heavy-test fishing line, a small ball of string, and a small spool of copper wire, which take up little room and fulfill various camp needs.

* Cooking gear: apologies to Sope, but you don't need a kettle and you can't afford the weight.  Boil water in your pot.  You do need (a half-pint of concentrated) detergent, but not for the clothing ... it's to wash your cook gear, because mishaps there will mess you up a lot faster than dirty undies.  You'll want a quart-sized pot and a small skillet, minimum ... and two pots, really, if you can manage it.  (One cooks your meal, the other heats water for washing.)  Bring a couple of those thin nylon scouring pads.  A pressed tin bowl apiece and a tin camp cup will suffice.

* Food: The one spice you'll need is salt: clean out a secure plastic jar (like a cold cream jar) and fill it up.  You'll want some sugar too, for energy, about the same amount.  The camp drink for backpackers is tea: a single tea bag can make three cups easily.

* Foam mattress pads:  You're teenagers, and you don't need anything more for your sleeping bags.  Avoid air mattresses; if they're heavy-duty enough not to be easily punctured, they're too heavy for you.  Bring a couple small sacks that can be stuffed with your spare clothing for pillows, and those sacks might be useful.

* Small stuff: waterproof matches, needle and thread, two lighters, a penlight, a few cyalume sticks.  A few plain 3" wax candles have many invaluable uses, not the least of which is light and heating when you don't dare have a full-scale fire (pour some sand in a tin can, put the candle in the sand, there's a lamp.  Melted wax makes good emergency sealant for a tarp or a poncho.  By the way, bring a poncho apiece; you'll absolutely want those.  Bring a compass and a road map -- never mind topo maps, which unless you're skilled at orienteering won't do you a lot of good.

No apology needed. I meant kettle that you have in camp gas heaters like Trangia. It's aluminum and very light. Of course if you don't have one, cast iron pot is heavy but good for anything. :P

Good advices guys.

Let's see, a few very lightweight basics first, these will fit in a pocket easily.

• Box of matches, dip the heads in candlewax and they're largely waterproof. Strike anywhere are better.
• Firesteel striker, handy but very hard to light a fire without cotton wool or something equally fibrous. Vaseline in cotton wool is a great firelighter, get a tube of vaseline not a tub, easier to hide.
• Finish off your fire kit with a couple of simple bic lighters. Won't last forever but a hell of a lot better than the useless zippo or derivatives.
• A small but tough folding knife for fine work.
• Trade goods! A few bricks of tobacco will go a lot further than gold. Sweets too.
• Butterfly bandages, these will save your life.
• Simple fishing kit, some hooks, swivels, lead weights and line. Tiny.
• Brass or copper wire for making snares and fastenings.
• A good length of paracord rope, this can be seperated into individual strands - in fact that's how you tell it's real paracord. The strands can also be used for snares and fishing line.
• If you can get your hands on a compact survival blanket, great stuff and very small.
• Compact tampons if you can't find or store cotton wool, these can double as bullethole stops in a pinch.
• Small mirror and whistle for signalling.
• Unlubed condoms for water carrying (put in a sock).
• Pencil, notebook.
• Compass, maps.
• A wiresaw will do when there isn't anything else.
• Superglue.
• Knife sharpener.
• Folding spork.

Baking soda (http://www.survivallife.com/2013/02/25/pharoahs-secret-50-ways-to-use-baking-soda/), best kept secret of survival. Toothpaste, soap, deodorant, detergent, and more (http://www.fourwinds10.net/siterun_data/health/survival_prepardness/news.php?q=1339003503).

All of the above fit into a pocket although I'd keep them in a drybag. Slightly heavier:

Water:
Boiling water is not enough, that wont get chemical pollutants. Using bleach pills is not enough, that won't get pollutants either and only a few of the microbes. Filtering is not enough, that won't get the microbes like cryptosporidium.

I use a four-step filtering process. Drip in bleach to a large bottle of water, let it cook in the sun for a few hours for UV cleansing, filter it through activated charcoal (normal charcoal is no good), then boil it in a kelly kettle. That last by the way is an indispensible bit of survival gear, for cooking and cleaning water. Not that large either if you have a smaller model, although unlikely to be in a suburban home, unless it's my suburban home.

Other stuff:
I prefer a big fuckoff knife rather than a hatchet, something like the ka-bar which was used for almost a century by US forces. Digs trenches, hammers things, cuts down trees with the baton technique, quite reliable too.

Folding saw.

You can use a bivvy or survival poncho to make a temporary tent very easily.

A smallish pot can go a long way, along with a few tin cups.

Generally good advice on clothes and food above, to which I'd add vitamin pills and honey.

There's lots of other stuff too but this isn't the forum for it.

Mm, wiresaws are toys, pretty much.  In the words of one camping expert, it'll cut wood faster than a termite would.

Honestly, you don't need a saw.  If you were doing extended wilderness camping in the north, yeah, you would.  But you don't need roaring campfires for sheer survival in Florida and Georgia, for most of the year; when midwinter nighttime lows in Orlando are around 50 degrees, you need a cookfire, and the coals from that will warm you well enough.  An axe will suffice for that much.

Quote from: Ravenswing;686118Mm, wiresaws are toys, pretty much.  In the words of one camping expert, it'll cut wood faster than a termite would.

Depends how you use it (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pKk--LaKzY). Also useful for cutting things not amenable to axing, like PVC piping (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=za1G94aPIt4). Considering the pack weight, I'd add it if it's handy.

Quote from: Ravenswing;686118Honestly, you don't need a saw.  If you were doing extended wilderness camping in the north, yeah, you would.  But you don't need roaring campfires for sheer survival in Florida and Georgia, for most of the year; when midwinter nighttime lows in Orlando are around 50 degrees, you need a cookfire, and the coals from that will warm you well enough.  An axe will suffice for that much.

You don't need roaring campfires for survival in the north either, too much effort to keep them roaring. What you do need is shelter, just like in more equatorial areas, and a folding saw is handy in that regard. It's much of a muchness really but I'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

Here (http://www.survivalistboards.com/) is a survivalist message board with some very useful information and advice.  Fairly friendly to newcomers as well.

Quote from: Black VulmaLayers: nylon base layer (top and bottom), fleece layer, sturdy shell - NO COTTON. Broad-brimmed hat with a drawstring and bandanna to cover your face. Leather work gloves, nylon fleece glove liners. Leather boots, good socks, water shoes for crossing streams and keeping your boots dry.

Good call. This was something I didn't even think about.

QuoteMuch too heavy. Dry food: beans, jerky for protein, crackers for carbs, dried fruit for simple sugars; supplement with fresh vegetable and fish any chance you can get it safely and cleanly.

Unfortunately we've already been holed up in the house for a little over a week, coming up on two. The GM made it a point of letting us know that those 20 cans of Chef Boyardee and a bunch of candy stolen from the confectionery aisle (it was all I could find; the dry foods and protein bars were demolished) is all we have left.

QuoteReliable water filter - every puddle is a water source.

We thought about taking a BRITA filter, but I don't know if the character would have much more than that. Don't some cantines have filters attached? Or are you talking about something a little more portable?

I'll definitely check to see if we have water-proof matches.

QuoteSticks and leaves.

Yeah, even if my character was all gung-ho about not traveling with toilet paper (and I imagine it's going to be one of the first things on his list), his fourteen year old sister would just ignore him. Plus, I can just see the GM giving me some terrible rash because I decided to wipe my ass with poison sumak or something.

QuoteGood call - wind/waterproof shelter.

Thanks!

QuoteWtf?

I read that if you cover a cotton ball in petroleum jelly, it becomes highly flammable -- and actually starting a fire can be very difficult. The jelly can also be used as a balm, although maybe not a very good one.

QuoteRubbing alcohol - safe for skin as a disinfectant.

I was thinking about bleach because a few drops can be used to kill off contaminants in water.

QuoteIbuprofen (not acetaminophen), antihistamine, laxative, antibacterial cream, contraception.

Nice. I didn't even think about that.

Quote from: SopeThere is no need to carry that much water with you. You can drink the water of small streams or if it is not clean water, you can put it in a pot above campfire and put a clean canvas over the pot. When the water boils, steam will condense in canvas. When you squeeze the canvas, you will get clean water out of it. You can also collect rainwater.

I'm just loathe to leave behind what is probably going to be the only source of pure water I'm going to find for miles around. I don't need nine gallons of it, sure (I can't even carry that much), but I'm thinking at least one gallon between the two of us -- maybe more, if I can get away with it.

Boiling the water like that, wringing out the steam from the canvas, that's a definitely a neat trick.

Quote from: Technomancer;686128Here (http://www.survivalistboards.com/) is a survivalist message board with some very useful information and advice.  Fairly friendly to newcomers as well.

I generally avoid those sorts of sites, look at general discussion for the reason... a comment on Russia's anti gay laws...

"Why stop at handing out fines and prison sentences? Give them some of the old ultra violence like this guy received. A case of the lumpy face is more of a deterrent imo."

...every fucking time with these sites. There are better places to get information.

Quote from: Lucid;686130Unfortunately we've already been holed up in the house for a little over a week, coming up on two. The GM made it a point of letting us know that those 20 cans of Chef Boyardee and a bunch of candy stolen from the confectionery aisle (it was all I could find; the dry foods and protein bars were demolished) is all we have left.

Put the food in freezer bags - double-bagged - and ditch the cans.

Quote from: Lucid;686130Or are you talking about something a little more portable?

The best water filter known to man (http://www.cascadedesigns.com/msr/water-treatment-and-hydration/expedition-water-treatment-and-hydration/miniworks-ex-microfilter/product).

Quote from: Lucid;686130Plus, I can just see the GM giving me some terrible rash because I decided to wipe my ass with poison sumak or something.

Well yeah, of course, which is why you want the diaper rash cream - I keep Boudreaux's Butt Paste (http://www.buttpaste.com/) in my backpacking gear. Stuff's fucking metal for dealing with any sort of skin irritation.

Before I go any further I just want to thank everyone who contributed to this list. I was really surprised to wake up to so many useful lists.

Quote from: The TravellerIf you can get your hands on a compact survival blanket, great stuff and very small.

Like those aluminum-looking blankets?

QuoteCompact tampons if you can't find or store cotton wool, these can double as bullethole stops in a pinch.

Points for being unconventional. I imagine we'd probably have cotton balls, but would they work for the same purpose? Is there a danger of sticking something fibrous inside an open wound?

QuoteUnlubed condoms for water carrying (put in a sock).

Why this? Because they're easier and less bulky when they aren't full?

QuoteBaking soda, best kept secret of survival. Toothpaste, soap, deodorant, detergent, and more.

Very nice.

QuoteBoiling water is not enough, that wont get chemical pollutants. Using bleach pills is not enough, that won't get pollutants either and only a few of the microbes. Filtering is not enough, that won't get the microbes like cryptosporidium.

I read something about this. A lot of sites recommend that you boil and filter it. The bleach is supposed to be for emergencies only, and even then you're supposed to let it settle for like 20 minutes and filter it afterward.

QuoteI use a four-step filtering process. Drip in bleach to a large bottle of water, let it cook in the sun for a few hours for UV cleansing, filter it through activated charcoal (normal charcoal is no good), then boil it in a kelly kettle. That last by the way is an indispensible bit of survival gear, for cooking and cleaning water. Not that large either if you have a smaller model, although unlikely to be in a suburban home, unless it's my suburban home.

What's the difference between activated charcoal and regular charcoal, and where can I get my hands on the former? How long will a filter made from activated charcoal last?

QuoteI prefer a big fuckoff knife rather than a hatchet, something like the ka-bar which was used for almost a century by US forces. Digs trenches, hammers things, cuts down trees with the baton technique, quite reliable too.

I was concerned about this. A hatchet is really useful, no doubt about it, but everyone keeps telling me that bulk and weight are the enemies, so it's one of those trade-offs, I guess.

QuoteFolding saw.
You can use a bivvy or survival poncho to make a temporary tent very easily.

I'm taking it you'll need branches or poles to make a tent. Should I carry something like that as well? Remember, a lot of this game will be spent in large cities and along stretches of highway or small suburban towns. I'm sure some of it will also include murky swamps and patches of woodlands.

QuoteA smallish pot can go a long way, along with a few tin cups.

Tin because they boil?

QuoteGenerally good advice on clothes and food above, to which I'd add vitamin pills and honey.

I'll bear that in mind. I'm taking it the idea is to stay nourished? Or would you want to use the honey as a way to stretch rations and stave off hunger?

QuoteThere's lots of other stuff too but this isn't the forum for it.

You've been extremely helpful as it is.

Quote from: Lucid;686152Like those aluminum-looking blankets?

Yeah something like this:
(http://www.lifesecure.com/images/medium/70542.jpg)
They fold down to a very small size.

Quote from: Lucid;686152Points for being unconventional. I imagine we'd probably have cotton balls, but would they work for the same purpose? Is there a danger of sticking something fibrous inside an open wound?

Indeed, but it's better than bleeding out. Tampons were made to absorb blood and not leave bits behind so better than nothing.

Quote from: Lucid;686152Why this? Because they're easier and less bulky when they aren't full?

Exactly, if your main water bottle gets holed they make a useful backup.

Quote from: Lucid;686152What's the difference between activated charcoal and regular charcoal, and where can I get my hands on the former? How long will a filter made from activated charcoal last?

A smallish amount, say as much as would fit in the palm of your hand piled up would do for about a month as long as you aren't washing the dishes and bathing in the filtered water.

Activated charcoal is charcoal that has been ground up and seared with either acid or superhot steam so it's comprised of lots of tiny jagged particles with an enormous surface area. This captures anything that isn't supposed to be there, like a nanofilter. You can manufacture it in the field but you'll have to look up how that's done yourself. It's dangerous to do.

Quote from: Lucid;686152I'm taking it you'll need branches or poles to make a tent. Should I carry something like that as well? Remember, a lot of this game will be spent in large cities and along stretches of highway or small suburban towns. I'm sure some of it will also include murky swamps and patches of woodlands.

No, that 550 paracord I mentioned will work in suburban areas, you can tie the poncho or bivvy or tarp to protruding surfaces, sometimes as simply as just hanging the tarp from the line with the walls held outwards using rocks or rubbish. I wouldn't carry a pole unless you had room to spare, and even then only telescopic.

Quote from: Lucid;686152Tin because they boil?

No, tin because it's the first thing that came to mind. :) Anything you can put into a fire will do.

Quote from: Lucid;686152I'll bear that in mind. I'm taking it the idea is to stay nourished? Or would you want to use the honey as a way to stretch rations and stave off hunger?

Honey has a variety of uses, some medical, but really it just lasts a very long time and isn't prone to spoiling.

the wind/waterproof shelter thing isn't so much of a problem if you can construct a basic debris shelter, but your characters probably lack that knowledge.

Honestly?  You don't need much.  I've backpacked over a good chunk of the USA at one point or another.  

A metal water container
Some means of starting a fire, ferro rod  flint and steel, waterproof matches, etc.
Knife.
Wool blanket.
Cordage.

Everything else is luxury, but I'd add a backpack, an axe, appropriate clothing, extra socks, rain gear, tarp, shotgun or rifle, and a long bow.

Quote from: Lucid;686130I read that if you cover a cotton ball in petroleum jelly, it becomes highly flammable -- and actually starting a fire can be very difficult ...

I'm just loathe to leave behind what is probably going to be the only source of pure water I'm going to find for miles around. I don't need nine gallons of it, sure (I can't even carry that much), but I'm thinking at least one gallon between the two of us -- maybe more, if I can get away with it.

Starting a fire's a lot easier than you think, if you know the trick to it.  What you do is feather a stick with a knife ... presuming that traveling through all that settled territory, you can't put your hands on the best tinder there is: sheets of paper.

Well ... as far as water and cans of Chef Boyardee go, here's the critical problem.  I mentioned earlier that 60 lbs between you were about the maximum reasonable carrying capacity.

Let me go through the minimum you'd need:  axe (5 lbs), hatchet (1.5), knife (.5), multitool (1), first-aid kit (.75), 2x sleeping bags (5), 10x10 shelter half (2.5), 4x plastic tent stakes (.25), 2x foam mattress pad (1), titanium 3-piece ultralight cookset (2 pots, 1 skillet, .5), 2x titanium sporks (2 oz), 2x titanium mug (.25), 2x titanium plate (.5), ½ pt detergent (.5), headlamp (3 oz), mini hiking binoculars (1), 4x spare wool hiking socks (.5), 4x spare wool shirts (2), 30' high quality nylon rope (1.5), spool high test fishing line (.25), 2x poncho (.5), miscellaneous equipment (2).

That's just short of 28 lbs, half of your capacity, right there, and you can see a bunch of stuff you'd like to carry that isn't there.  This also presumes that your parents were backpackers, not auto campers, and had very expensive ultralight gear.  This also presumes you're cooking over a campfire instead of bringing a camp stove and fuel, a task that rookie campers usually botch.

A gallon of water weighs eight pounds.  A can of Chef Boyardee ravioli weighs a pound.  If you're planning on defending yourself, a Remington 20 gauge shotgun weighs over six pounds, and a box of shells weighs a pound more.  Carry just two gallons, carry that shotgun and 25 shells, carry just nine cans of ravioli, and you have weight for NOTHING else.

This is a challenging scenario, especially for kids unused to roughing it on this scale.

I wouldn't consider axe, binoculars and plates essential.

And using camp stove is not rookie thing. Modern gas stoves don't weigh that much and you can use them in almost any condition. There are places where it's almost impossible to make fire.

Why not ride a bicycle(s)?

cable ties and duct tape are your friends although they get used up.

Good thread by the way.

I think an army camp bed is better, lighter and more comfortable than a karimat + waterproof sheet. You know the ones with a canvass sheet and metal legs. weigh about 3 lbs and you can get a good nights sleep. Course after a week of sleeping rough you can get a good night's sleep on dirt.
 I agree that the expected terrain is key here. If you intend to travel through urban areas you can dump a lot of weight and just forage it each night, so sleep in abandoned cars, or houses also depending on population density

Quote from: The Traveller;686135I generally avoid those sorts of sites, look at general discussion for the reason... a comment on Russia's anti gay laws...

"Why stop at handing out fines and prison sentences? Give them some of the old ultra violence like this guy received. A case of the lumpy face is more of a deterrent imo."

...every fucking time with these sites. There are better places to get information.

You raise a good point.  I almost added a disclaimer to stay out of the General, Political, and Religious sections, but there is useful information there and I didn't want to scare anyone away.

Quote from: Technomancer;686408You raise a good point.  I almost added a disclaimer to stay out of the General, Political, and Religious sections, but there is useful information there and I didn't want to scare anyone away.

The same information can be gotten elsewhere without handing traffic to people who probably post at stormfront half the time. I don't know what it is about bushcraft that attracts these nuts, if it's not the stormfronters or the english defence league it's the aryan nation clutching their paracord survival necklaces every time a black child joins the local school.

Bah, run the lot of them out of it I say.

Quote from: The Traveller;686415The same information can be gotten elsewhere without handing traffic to people who probably post at stormfront half the time. I don't know what it is about bushcraft that attracts these nuts, if it's not the stormfronters or the english defence league it's the aryan nation clutching their paracord survival necklaces every time a black child joins the local school.

Bah, run the lot of them out of it I say.

It kind of scares me sometimes, some of the people on message boards like that, or the kooks on shows like "Doomsday Preppers"...if there really is some great disaster, THOSE are the guys who will thrive post-apocalypse.  They are the one's who are best prepared to survive.  The future of the entire human race will be in their hands :eek:

Quote from: Technomancer;686429It kind of scares me sometimes, some of the people on message boards like that, or the kooks on shows like "Doomsday Preppers"...if there really is some great disaster, THOSE are the guys who will thrive post-apocalypse.  They are the one's who are best prepared to survive.  The future of the entire human race will be in their hands :eek:

Well them and the mormons. And possibly people like me who appear to be outliers by dint of not hating people of other ethnic or sexual persuasions.

Notable by their absence on those forums are the SJWs incidentally. You'd think they'd be piling on with gusto rather than digging through old elfgames looking for non offensive yet arousing imagery.

Anyway, getting offtopic here, OP let us know how your game went!

Quote from: Sope;686335I wouldn't consider axe, binoculars and plates essential.

If not plates, then bowls.  You're cooking up food.  That food, by the nature of survival cookery, will often be stews.  You have to serve it IN something.  It's best for that something to be sanitary, especially in the disease-prone environment of the deep South.

As far as an axe goes, I'm rather shocked.  NO one genuinely familiar with long-term camping would ever say such a thing: an axe not only is essential, it's pretty much THE basic tool for wilderness survival.  With an axe, you can build a shelter, start a fire, cut materials for fishing and hunting traps, build a raft or a dugout, butcher game, fashion weapons ... and an axe is a weapon in of itself, which will still be there when you run out of ammo for your firearms.

As far as binoculars go?  Look at the scenario.  I'm a 16 year old kid, and I've got my 14 year old sister with me.  We're traveling several hundred miles on foot, and civilization has broken down.  Looters are everywhere, and there are plenty of people who'll snuff us in an instant for the stuff in our packs, provided they don't then keep my sister alive for other purposes.  I not only want a pair of backpackers' binoculars for such a scenario, I'm going to keep them around my neck at all times when on the march, to stay in the habit of gazing at anything questionable.

QuoteAnd using camp stove is not rookie thing. Modern gas stoves don't weigh that much and you can use them in almost any condition. There are places where it's almost impossible to make fire.

I didn't mean that using a camp stove was hard for a rookie; they're pretty easy to use.  It's cooking on a campfire that's hard for a rookie, who generally doesn't know the tricks.  But while backpackers' stoves don't weigh much at all, the big rub is the fuel.  The standard small bottle of propane sold in the United States for camp stoves (the miniature bottles of fuel paired with most ultralight stoves are only found in specialty stores) weighs a pound.  One of those bottles isn't going to last a month, nowhere close -- and this trek is going to take at *least* that.

Quote from: Ravenswing;686483As far as an axe goes, I'm rather shocked.  NO one genuinely familiar with long-term camping would ever say such a thing: an axe not only is essential, it's pretty much THE basic tool for wilderness survival.  With an axe, you can build a shelter, start a fire, cut materials for fishing and hunting traps, build a raft or a dugout, butcher game, fashion weapons ... and an axe is a weapon in of itself, which will still be there when you run out of ammo for your firearms.

You can do all that and more with a knife too. There's a good deal of debate on the topic in various circles as you can see for yourself with a bit of googling, but it seems to me that people will use whatever they have the most proficiency and are the most comfortable with. If you have both and can handle the weight, why not take both.

I sure wouldn't say that people who don't prefer axes are making up their experiences though. You may be unfamiliar with baton techniques (plural) as applied to cutting and splitting wood, you can take down pretty large trees with even a modest knife using them. Personally I find it easier that way than carrying and swinging an axe, but then again I don't try to cut down very large trees, having no use for them.

Quote from: Ravenswing;686483But while backpackers' stoves don't weigh much at all, the big rub is the fuel.  The standard small bottle of propane sold in the United States for camp stoves (the miniature bottles of fuel paired with most ultralight stoves are only found in specialty stores) weighs a pound.  One of those bottles isn't going to last a month, nowhere close -- and this trek is going to take at *least* that.

Exactly, camp stoves are great till the fuel runs out.

Why have a hatchet if you also need axe (isn't hatchet small axe or am I wrong?)?

I meant with eookie thing that you said earlier that rookies usually use camp stoves and real pros cook their food by campfire. That might be true in forest, but in tundra and mountain area that camp stove might be the only thing you can cook food with. I would have gas camp stove with me for emergency days for survival (for places where I couldn't make fire).

Quote from: The Traveller;686508You can do all that and more with a knife too ...

I've seen a couple of YouTube videos from the baton-and-knife guys doing their gimmicks.  Their staged routines do indeed look impressive, and when I see one that seriously competes with a practiced axeman in felling a tree and chopping it up into logs for firewood, you'll be the first to know.  For my part, though, if I talk to fifty veteran outdoorsmen, and forty-nine tell me I ought to use an axe, but one guy tells me that a baton-and-KBar work a lot better, whose word do you think I'm going to take?

There's a more pointed issue, though.  The people doing these YouTube videos are surely fast -- very fast.  Obviously they practice their techniques a lot, and it shows.  Exactly how good at them do you figure a 16-year-old kid would be, and from whom is he going to learn?  At best he's going to be at a quarter-speed, and at worst he's going to lose some fingers he can't replace.

Quote from: Sope;686591Why have a hatchet if you also need axe (isn't hatchet small axe or am I wrong?)?

You're not wrong.  They're different tools for different jobs.  A hatchet is good for a bunch of small scale, utility jobs; cutting up kindling, driving in tent pegs, blazing trees, trimming the branches off of poles.  For heavy-duty wood chopping or planing, it's inadequate.  Since you want two such tools anyway -- brother and sister working at once -- you want both.

Quote from: Sope;686591I would have gas camp stove with me for emergency days for survival (for places where I couldn't make fire).

And if you can fit the extra pound and a half into your weight to fit that stove and a propane tank, great.  What do you propose leaving out to have that luxury?

Time to bring out the big guns.

Meet Ray Mears - http://www.raymears.com/

There are lists of equipment discussions etc as well as loads of other stuff. Ray has done it all seen it all written the books on it. His CV in unparalleled

Quote from: Ravenswing;686717And if you can fit the extra pound and a half into your weight to fit that stove and a propane tank, great.  What do you propose leaving out to have that luxury?

It's not luxury. It can cook your meal when you can't make fire. I would leave out axe and ponchos for example. If I need to cut down trees, they should be so small that I can do it with hatchet. Or with good knife. I would also leave out kitchen knife and take something like this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/86/Marttiini_Ilves_Knife.jpg (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/86/Marttiini_Ilves_Knife.jpg) That is the kind of knife Finnish people (and people in Sweden also at least) have used for centuries as an all-around knife. But you don't have to leave anything if you're 16 yo military buff. With good backpack you can carry something like 45 lbs. 10 miles/day.

If you are good, you can travel around with lighter package. Century ago men in Lappish wilderness carried only rifle, ammo, small fishing gear, small backpack, coffee, salt, butter and small amount of dried reindeer meat. Butter was luxury. They could spend weeks in wilderness like this, because they knew where to find shelter. This is all according to general Wallenius who was the leader of border patrol in those times.

I've never been to Florida, but is it really woody enough to require the use of an axe? Based on Band of the Hand/that Donald Duck comic when he got captured by those hillbilly midgets in the everglades I'm pretty sure it's full of swamps. I'm not a heaps experienced outdoorsman either but it seems like something to clear vegetation/collect thatch (machete, billhook etc) would be of more general use in that environment than a woodchopper.
this guy discusses axes and saws and their relative strengths (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMToj3ui-fU) (in a slightly knobby way but I think he was reasonably comprehensive).

Finally, I just checked the wikipedia page on Florida's climate and it seems like it rains a lot. They'd probably be happy to have the stove after a storm when everything else is wet as a bastard. Trangia stoves can fit in with your cookware and methylated spirits kills leeches and can be used as disinfectant, in addition to being fuel.

Quote from: Ravenswing;686717I've seen a couple of YouTube videos from the baton-and-knife guys doing their gimmicks.  Their staged routines do indeed look impressive

Okay, so you not only haven't tried it, you've barely even heard of it.

Quote from: Ravenswing;686717For my part, though, if I talk to fifty veteran outdoorsmen, and forty-nine tell me I ought to use an axe, but one guy tells me that a baton-and-KBar work a lot better, whose word do you think I'm going to take?

I don't think you have spoken to fifty outdoorsmen on the matter, but one thing that uniformly characterises actual outdoorsmen, as with most people who do dangerous things in dangerous places, is a mutual respect for one another's craft, and a willingness to learn. I'll leave that with you.

Quote from: Ravenswing;686717Exactly how good at them do you figure a 16-year-old kid would be, and from whom is he going to learn?  At best he's going to be at a quarter-speed, and at worst he's going to lose some fingers he can't replace.

Oho, hold on there. Say what you like about batoning but it's safer than using an axe. No risk of losing fingers, no risk of a sharp piece of metal rebounding at the end of a swing, and no missing blows that finish up with an axehead in your kneecap. There's a reason they say the longer an axe is, the less dangerous it is to use. Shorter axes can go very wrong.

Still different strokes and all that. If I wanted to build a stockade or semi permanent residence I'd definetely pack an axe, and probably bring a mule loaded with related supplies too. For the kind of light work you'd meet on the move, I find it unnecessary. I find there's a lot more control over cuts when batoning as well - the business end is already where you want it to be, you're applying the force after the fact.

Quote from: The Traveller;686808mutual respect for one another's craft, and a willingness to learn.

Yep. He reminds me of American in this Monty Python video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yR5Z4n1TdSI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yR5Z4n1TdSI)

I haven't heard of that term "baton and knife" before, but now that I watched couple of videos, I would say that yes, that is good way to make smaller firewood from bigger logs (done it many times). Also quite safe like Traveller said.

Usually outdoorsmen here have two knives: leuku http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_knife (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_knife) and smaller same kind of knife. Or just one big one. Of course axe is better with harder wood, but if you have carrying limit, you must make compromises.

Quote from: Sope;686813Usually outdoorsmen here have two knives: leuku http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_knife (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_knife) and smaller same kind of knife. Or just one big one.

Yeah same here, one small and one big, it gives the most options for use. I like the look of that Sami, it has good depth under the tip for support. Scandinavian blades generally have a great reputation in outdoor circles - tried and trusted, as they say.

Think you guys are overthinking this a smidgen.
Grab a bicycle, stick the highways either 75 or 95 and you should be out of Florida in 4 days then it just depends on where in Georgia they are trying to go no more than 10 days to get anywheres in Georgia.

Quote from: The Traveller;686808I don't think you have spoken to fifty outdoorsmen on the matter, but one thing that uniformly characterises actual outdoorsmen, as with most people who do dangerous things in dangerous places, is a mutual respect for one another's craft, and a willingness to learn. I'll leave that with you.

I refer you, sir, to my second .sig.  I agree with you that I haven't spoken with fifty outdoorsmen on the subject; it's more like eighty.  One loses count after a while.  Now if you and Sope want to play the "How dare someone disagree with me????" game, feel free.

Quote from: Ravenswing;686906I refer you, sir, to my second .sig.  I agree with you that I haven't spoken with fifty outdoorsmen on the subject; it's more like eighty.  One loses count after a while.  Now if you and Sope want to play the "How dare someone disagree with me????" game, feel free.

You're claiming that anybody who doesn't use an axe has no outdoors experience, despite which nobody is saying "How dare someone disagree with me????". As you noted yourself, batoning knives is fast, really fast, when you know what you're doing.

I take it you're a big camper? In some parts of the US there's a culture which rightfully views people who have oversized knives strapped to their belt as wannabe rambos and probably a little unhinged, a bad combination, which is probably where the sark is originating.

There are other countries, and other cultures in those countries, where making the best use of a powerful outdoor tool like a large knife is considered best practise and part of a sensible set of equipment. Will you view a machete-wielding Indonesian as less 'authentic' for using a machete in lieu of an axe? Or are machetes okay? Let's not make this a 'get the last word in' situation, just give some thought to the bigger picture here.

Ravenswing: you accusing me and Traveller is quite odd. You said earlier that axe is necessary and only rookies use camp stoves. When I tried to say that there are uses for camp stoves and it's not just rookies who use those, you said that it's luxury. Then I said that no it isn't and Lord Rocket also agreed with me and even gave some examples when gas stove might be useful.

I also said that I don't find carrying axe with me necessary and prefer small and big knife combo like many do around these parts.

On the other hand I haven't spoken to countless outdoorsmen... (Why is quantity so important?). If I would like to know about travelling outdoors during wintertime I would rather talk to for example one reliable Swedish Fjälljäger than to countless know-it-all-guys. Same thing applies to mountaineering and Swiss climbers.

Outside of a sturdy knife, a firestarter, and solid layers, primitive skills supersede any item someone can carry. Dead serious.

Couple of hints for camping outside.

Instead of tent you can sleep in laavu http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lean-to (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lean-to) (read the bottom part) Just build it from couple of sturdy branches and smaller branches with lots of leaves.

For cooking you can bulid swedish torch. Either large one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWjEtZr1uR0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWjEtZr1uR0) or smaller one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFKzvWDeiFc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFKzvWDeiFc) depending on what kind of tools you have and what burning material.

Guns. If you have those, in a lawless society, you can end up getting everything else.

Quote from: RPGPundit;687393Guns. If you have those, in a lawless society, you can end up getting everything else.

Which works great right up until someone shoots you for waving a gun in their face.

Quote from: The Traveller;687598Which works great right up until someone shoots you for waving a gun in their face.

Another good reason to have a gun: other people will, and if you don't you can't shoot them in the face first.

Good multitool.

Pro-fuckoff knife/batoning here.

Quote from: RPGPundit;688026Another good reason to have a gun: other people will, and if you don't you can't shoot them in the face first.

Solution: don't just bring a gun, bring a bunch of friends with guns.

Actually "friends" is very good "equipment" to have in this scenario...

Quote from: RPGPundit;688026Another good reason to have a gun: other people will, and if you don't you can't shoot them in the face first.

That's probably the only good reason to have a gun, along with hunting. If you were planning to pad out your inventory by simply including a gun, you'll almost certainly end up with a surplus of lead sooner rather than later.

May as well shave your hair into a purple mohawk and tie on the leather chaps while you're at it.

Quote from: Sope;686925Ravenswing: you accusing me and Traveller is quite odd. You said earlier that axe is necessary and only rookies use camp stoves. When I tried to say that there are uses for camp stoves and it's not just rookies who use those, you said that it's luxury. Then I said that no it isn't and Lord Rocket also agreed with me and even gave some examples when gas stove might be useful.

First off, I never said "only rookies use camp stoves," a point on which I've already corrected you once.  I don't know whether the language barrier is the issue or your reading comprehension is, but you can stop claiming that any time. (Then again, you're the one who gave serious advice about not eating ice or snow ... to an OP dealing with an outdoor scenario set in Florida.  Eeesh.  Nuff freaking said.)  

What I did say was that rookies very often have trouble cooking over camp fires. There's nothing at all wrong with using a camp stove; I've used a Coleman 2-burner propane stove for camping for over twenty years now, and my father owns a Coleman model he got from his father.  They're convenient and very simple to use.

They're also heavy and bulky.  Mine is about the size of a briefcase, and weighs several pounds.  The propane canisters that fuel them weigh a pound a piece, and they're good for about four, five hours worth of burn.  For me, that's fine.  For about a decade I had a permanent backwoods campsite set up that I occupied three months out of the year, and since then I've been an auto camper.  I have the ability to ferry a lot of gear.  (Hell, I use a futon for a camp bed.)  

But the OP wasn't talking about auto camping.  He was talking about what an average suburban teenage boy and teenage girl could carry on their backs for a several hundred mile trek.  Even a backpacker's stove, weighing a half-pound, still runs afoul of that canister of propane ... which gives one of them about three hours worth of burn, and still weighs that pound.

So ... perhaps you'll tackle again the question you failed to answer the first time: what in that packload do you propose dropping in order to carry several propane tanks and a camp stove?  See, I don't give a damn how much you're positive that a camp stove is essential gear: what constitutes essential gear in this scenario is what you can afford to carry.  These poor kids are already badly up against it for weight and gear, and are already going to have to depend heavily on scrounging (for one thing, it's a mortal lock that their footwear will need to be replaced during the trip).

So how about it?  Let's see your list, broken down by weight.

Ok:

Rucksack, 65-80 litres (2 kilos) x2
Sleeping bag (2 kilos) x2
Foam mattress (less than kilo) x2
Big knife, leuku (less than kilo) x2
Trangia kettle, primus boiler, 2 spoons, 2 water bottles, maybe one plate (less than 2 kilos)
2 small gas bottles (less than kilo)
Fishing gear (2 kilos)
Rope (2 kilos)
Socks, underpants, t-shirts (3 kilos) x2
Warm clothing for nights (2 kilos) x2
Repair stuff, medicine, matches, compass, maps (1 kilo)
Tarp or waterproof cloth for building a lavvu (3 kilos)

I even rounded up some stuff. That's less than 33 kilos combined. Girl can carry 16 kilos and boy 23, so they can take at least 6 kilos of food. Even more if they get rid of tarp and build a lavvu out of wood everynight or sleep in abandoned buildings.

And that snow and ice thing was just an example that those are not clean water. If I were a survivor in Florida I would find abandoned white Ferrari and drive the hell out of there. Wet and hot weather and swamps are a call for diseases. Or am I wrong? My experiences of Florida come from Miami Vice and some movies.

And yes, small propane bottles are found in specialty stores but so are some of the stuff in your list. Aren't we talking about optimal gear here. Most people won't even have foam mattresses, good sleeping bags or rucksacks in their homes.

Quote from: The Ent;688063Solution: don't just bring a gun, bring a bunch of friends with guns.

Actually "friends" is very good "equipment" to have in this scenario...

Agreed.  As usual, charisma is one of the most important stats.

On the topic of stoves:

Spoiler

(http://www.pbase.com/brian_barnes/image/102405972.jpg)

Weighs mere ounces. Fuel is wherever you can find dry wood.

Here's a how to: http://gear-report.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/instructions-wood-gas-stove.jpg

Quote from: mightyuncle;689063On the topic of stoves:

Weighs mere ounces. Fuel is wherever you can find dry wood.

Here's a how to: http://gear-report.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/instructions-wood-gas-stove.jpg

Yeah a gram of knowledge is worth a kilo of gear - people have died of 'rabbit sickness' in pine forests when all they needed to do was boil up a few pine needles - but in the OP's case they haven't got that unfortunately.

Just on the topic of stoves, Florida is a pretty damp and humid location as Lord Rocket mentioned, while there might be plenty to burn actually burning it is a different matter. I can see utility in a backpacker's stove, you could get two weeks use out of three hours if used wisely.

The firearms are not necessarily key. Historically, largescale disasters very rarely result in common citizens blowing each-other away or stealing from each-other, usually most of the deliberately-caused deaths are caused by those working for the government - police, Army and so on. And police make an effort (as after Katrina) to seize private citizens' firearms. You'll never outgun those guys. Other deaths are caused by jumpy fruitloops.

Common citizens tend to make an effort to help each-other out. In the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina lots of young black guys were killed by middle-class white guys who got a bit overexcited. One-third of the police department deserted, many of those who stayed engaged in wholesale looting (as opposed to just grabbing stuff needed for day-to-day survival), other police in nearby counties turned refugees away at gunpoint. But common citizens, in general, helped each-other out.

Of course in all historical disasters, there's been a wider world ready to come in and help - however slow and incompetent the response may be, eventually they sort their shit out and do help out. In an rpg-like apocalypse scenario things will of course be different, and people may behave differently when there's no hope.

But most people are unlikely to be running around raping and murdering for the sheer badarsedness of it. Paranoid and jumpy fruitloops - some in uniform, some in their boat shoes - would be the greatest threat of violence.

Of course, you may want the firearms for wild animals. But it's an apocalypse, there are plenty of already-dead people for the alligators to eat, they're not going to bother with the ones who struggle :D

Lack of clean drinking water will be a big deal, a postapocalyptic world becomes like the Third World, where ordinary diaorrhea can be lethal and does indeed kill many.

Quote from: Sope;688259And yes, small propane bottles are found in specialty stores but so are some of the stuff in your list. Aren't we talking about optimal gear here. Most people won't even have foam mattresses, good sleeping bags or rucksacks in their homes.

Missed the part where the OP was talking about having camping gear to hand, did you?

Yes, indeed; I assumed in my list that optimal gear was to hand.  If it isn't, these kids are a lot more screwed than they were in the first place.  Turn ultralight titanium cooking gear into whatever you have lying around the kitchen, the weight doubles or triples.

The issue isn't whether the specialty canisters for some of the very lightweight backpackers' stove fuel are to hand at the start; it's how readily they can be replaced.  Some of those stoves have fuel tanks about the size of a mug of tea, and they won't give you much more than a half-hour's full burn: they're intended for a weekend jaunt.  They're also only available in specialized camping stores.  (The small propane tanks I've been mentioning, by contrast, are available pretty much everywhere, in every Walmart, every department store and in many grocery stores.  If you keep insisting on responding to my posts, could you make an attempt to do so accurately?)

As far as you thinking you can put 40 kilos on these kids, err?  The 23 kilos you think you can put on a sixteen-year-old boy's back for a 400 mile trek is a full load for a grown man who's an experienced backpacker -- the backpacker's rule of thumb is to carry no more than 30% of your body weight.  You've overestimated that by nearly half again.

Finally, as far as "driving the Ferrari" goes ... well, sure.  Wouldn't we all.  And when the duke asks us to get the magic sword from the dungeon, why don't we just subcontract it out to those schleps over there, we split the loot as a middleman fee, elapsed adventure time 15 minutes?

"A friend of mine started watching Revolution recently, and while neither one of us are crazy about the show, we both agree that the concept has the potential for an interesting game." "The game focuses on the collapse of law and government ..."  I see those words, I presume that we've got a wild and woolly post-apoc situation, and that expecting the folks the next town over to be kind and helpful, or figuring you can just serenely bicycle all the way to Georgia, is not remotely in the cards.

In the Revolution series, the folks generally are kind and helpful, it's the government and its lackeys who are not; the first episode has uniformed militia going into a peaceful village and going all medieval despot on them. Like with the NOPD during Katrina, if you avoid anyone in uniform you'll probably be safe.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;689072The firearms are not necessarily key. Historically, largescale disasters very rarely result in common citizens blowing each-other away or stealing from each-other, usually most of the deliberately-caused deaths are caused by those working for the government - police, Army and so on. And police make an effort (as after Katrina) to seize private citizens' firearms. You'll never outgun those guys. Other deaths are caused by jumpy fruitloops.

In a postapocalyptic scenario the model to look at probably isn't so much a major US city after a hurricane, as it is, say, Afghanistan.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;689479In a postapocalyptic scenario the model to look at probably isn't so much a major US city after a hurricane, as it is, say, Afghanistan.

Kyle is right though, study after study has shown that major disasters have led to increased altruism among people, with one exception and that is areas which were rough to start out with temporarily got more dangerous as scores are settled etc. Predation is very limited and short term.

Admittedly we have no data points on something like a famine in a developed country because it simply hasn't happened, so all bets are off there, but for the most part people look after one another in times of trouble.

The media and entertainment industries love to wax lyrical on man-eats-man stuff but that's nonsense. The ten people trapped in an underground complex don't kill each other in a spiralling psychodrama of tension and edge of your seat mental collapse, they mostly just sit around playing cards.

Most post apocalyptic scenarios are a bit silly anyway though since they assume that the vast majority of people are dead and that they took all their stuff with them. If most people are dead the survivors are going to have an insane abundance of supplies to play with, and a surprising amount of it will last a very long time. Full on nuclear war would be the exception to the rule here since property and people are wiped out, as well as making large geographical areas inacessable for a while, but even there it wouldn't take long for civilisation to assert itself again.

Co-operation is written in our very genes, it's far too valuable a survival tool not to be.

Quote from: RPGPundit;689479In a postapocalyptic scenario the model to look at probably isn't so much a major US city after a hurricane, as it is, say, Afghanistan.

Sure. And the authorities in Afghanistan are the foreign forces, the Afghan police and Army, and the Taliban.

Who is more threat of violence and theft to the common Afghan goatherd: another Afghan goatherd, or the Afghan police, the Taliban, etc?

Quote from: The TravellerCo-operation is written in our very genes, it's far too valuable a survival tool not to be.

The issue is that some of the people co-operating won't be very nice. If control is contested between several groups (as in Pundit's Afghan example), things can get nasty. Or even if not nasty, at least interesting. So you co-operate, cool. But who do you co-operate with? Well, people like yourself, however wacky you are. New groups appear.

When I've run postapocalyptic scenarios, that's been the interesting thing for me: given the collapse of traditional social structures, what new structures appear? And so you have the racist slaver skinheads group, the fundamentalist Christian group, the military "benevolent" dictator group, etc. The disruption of communications with someone like a global EMP makes it easier for these smaller groups to form. They become like little island kingdoms for the PCs to visit and befriend or fuck with. And ALL of them are convinced they're building a utopia :D

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;689492So you co-operate, cool. But who do you co-operate with? Well, people like yourself, however wacky you are. New groups appear.

It's a good point. Historically serious widespread social disasters have been democratically deadly, but with certain groups making a deliberate and often elaborate effort to prepare for the worst, you know what maybe the road warrior scenario isn't so far fetched.

The nature of the disaster would still dictate the resultant society though. All the prep work and compound building in the world isn't going to help if a three megaton nuke pops over your head.

Alright, so I admit I got a little overwhelmed by the responses. I wanted to try and shoot as many individual replies out as possible, but unfortunately there's just no feasible way for me to do that. Instead, let me just say thank you all for your assistance. There were some really insightful comments made here, and they have been greatly appreciated.

I haven't had a chance to play the game again just yet (which sucks, because I really enjoyed it) but I printed out a bunch of the items you all listed off and included a few helpful tips to bear in mind, and I've been keeping my eye on the thread just to see if it might be possible to add to my lists. Chances are the GM will refuse a few of these items or roll on them if he feels like it's questionable, but at least I have something to go on.

I talked to the GM about the possibility of reducing the weight of the canned food and saving the space in my character's pack for other things, and the GM mentioned that by doing this, I would put an expiration date on my character's food. I have no doubt this is true, but it still hasn't persuaded me to cut out valuable space for heavy cans. Even so, does anyone have an idea of how long this food would take to go bad? Are we talking days, weeks, months, hours?

Also, it was mentioned the backpacking and auto-camping different hobbies. No distinction was made in the game, though; the word "camping" seemed to imply that the character's family loaded up a station wagon with food, shelter, backpacks stuffed with supplies (which, let's be honest, probably included a beer cooler and a bunch of other luxuries), found a place to park, and then hiked out and pitched their tents up within a few miles of their vehicle. I don't know whether that falls into the category of backpacking or auto-camping, but typically when I think of auto-campers I imagine a family that drives out to the beach or the woods or some other nice place in a huge, air-conditioned van and uses it as portable shelter.

With regard to the level of human violence, while I certainly agree that in most cases people tend to be more helpful than Hollywood portrays, the GM doesn't seem to think this way at all. I actually have some complaints about this, but I've since let them go. The GM isn't completely nonsensical in his approach (people don't just going on killing sprees for the hell of it), just a little unrealistic.

Before the weekend was up, the whole city was looting grocery stores and gas stations -- my character included. That wasn't a stretch. I mean, no one seemed to have a working vehicle and the pipes ran dry on day two, so if you were anything like my character and you didn't know how long your water supply was going to last and didn't see any hope of police response, you'd be an idiot not to rob your nearest Publix (or Sams, or Wal-Mart...pick your department store.)

I didn't take issue with the idea that everyone was looting within the first few days; it was the way everyone was so eager to kill each other to get what they wanted. My character walked over the corpses of sales associates at 7-Eleven, saw an old lady gunned down for her shopping cart at Publix, and even got into a standoff with some middle-aged man over a duffle bag full of Zephyrhills and candy. In the latter case, my biggest grievance was not that my character had a gun pulled on him, but that when he managed to get his gun drawn on the other guy, instead of listening to my character and just walking away, the guy's first reaction was to try and kill my character while surrounded by hundreds of other unarmed people.

I don't doubt that there are people who would kill an old lady for her shopping cart; I just think most people in desperate straits would much sooner shove her to the ground and run away with it. With the case of the man with the gun, he could literally have just backed off and proceeded to rob any of the hundreds of other people pouring out of the front doors. Is it foolish of me to believe that most people who are starving don't actually want to kill each other so much as they want to not starve?

The rate at which people started looting houses was also kind of ridiculous. Two days in and my character had to pull a gun on someone he went to high school with because dude broke his window and tried to creep in, and seemed to have no problem with this whatsoever. Seven days in and my character got into a shootout with three other people who all decided that robbing middle-income households in suburban communities was the best way to feed their families.

Granted, it wasn't inconsistent with the show. The show is filled with dumb shit like this. One guy threatened to crush a little girl's skull if her father didn't give him their wagon full of food...and then turned his back on the family after he took their stuff, like they were just going to let him walk away with the only thing that would keep their children from starvation. Revolution would have you believe that average people would be willing to shank an entire family (including small children) for their supplies and then just beat the hell out of random people for fun.

Anyway, suffice it to say that no, my character won't be taking a serene bike ride to Georgia on a bicycle while whistling the tune to Singin' in the Rain. But he has managed to barter with his neighbors and fully intends to invite a few people to travel upstate with him and his sister. And if one of those neighbors happens to have his father's shotgun, well, then so much the better.

Your GM is a cocksmock.