Quote from: The Traveller;686508You can do all that and more with a knife too ...

I've seen a couple of YouTube videos from the baton-and-knife guys doing their gimmicks.  Their staged routines do indeed look impressive, and when I see one that seriously competes with a practiced axeman in felling a tree and chopping it up into logs for firewood, you'll be the first to know.  For my part, though, if I talk to fifty veteran outdoorsmen, and forty-nine tell me I ought to use an axe, but one guy tells me that a baton-and-KBar work a lot better, whose word do you think I'm going to take?

There's a more pointed issue, though.  The people doing these YouTube videos are surely fast -- very fast.  Obviously they practice their techniques a lot, and it shows.  Exactly how good at them do you figure a 16-year-old kid would be, and from whom is he going to learn?  At best he's going to be at a quarter-speed, and at worst he's going to lose some fingers he can't replace.

Quote from: Sope;686591Why have a hatchet if you also need axe (isn't hatchet small axe or am I wrong?)?

You're not wrong.  They're different tools for different jobs.  A hatchet is good for a bunch of small scale, utility jobs; cutting up kindling, driving in tent pegs, blazing trees, trimming the branches off of poles.  For heavy-duty wood chopping or planing, it's inadequate.  Since you want two such tools anyway -- brother and sister working at once -- you want both.

Quote from: Sope;686591I would have gas camp stove with me for emergency days for survival (for places where I couldn't make fire).

And if you can fit the extra pound and a half into your weight to fit that stove and a propane tank, great.  What do you propose leaving out to have that luxury?

Time to bring out the big guns.

Meet Ray Mears - http://www.raymears.com/

There are lists of equipment discussions etc as well as loads of other stuff. Ray has done it all seen it all written the books on it. His CV in unparalleled

Quote from: Ravenswing;686717And if you can fit the extra pound and a half into your weight to fit that stove and a propane tank, great.  What do you propose leaving out to have that luxury?

It's not luxury. It can cook your meal when you can't make fire. I would leave out axe and ponchos for example. If I need to cut down trees, they should be so small that I can do it with hatchet. Or with good knife. I would also leave out kitchen knife and take something like this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/86/Marttiini_Ilves_Knife.jpg That is the kind of knife Finnish people (and people in Sweden also at least) have used for centuries as an all-around knife. But you don't have to leave anything if you're 16 yo military buff. With good backpack you can carry something like 45 lbs. 10 miles/day.

If you are good, you can travel around with lighter package. Century ago men in Lappish wilderness carried only rifle, ammo, small fishing gear, small backpack, coffee, salt, butter and small amount of dried reindeer meat. Butter was luxury. They could spend weeks in wilderness like this, because they knew where to find shelter. This is all according to general Wallenius who was the leader of border patrol in those times.

I've never been to Florida, but is it really woody enough to require the use of an axe? Based on Band of the Hand/that Donald Duck comic when he got captured by those hillbilly midgets in the everglades I'm pretty sure it's full of swamps. I'm not a heaps experienced outdoorsman either but it seems like something to clear vegetation/collect thatch (machete, billhook etc) would be of more general use in that environment than a woodchopper.
this guy discusses axes and saws and their relative strengths (in a slightly knobby way but I think he was reasonably comprehensive).

Finally, I just checked the wikipedia page on Florida's climate and it seems like it rains a lot. They'd probably be happy to have the stove after a storm when everything else is wet as a bastard. Trangia stoves can fit in with your cookware and methylated spirits kills leeches and can be used as disinfectant, in addition to being fuel.

Quote from: Ravenswing;686717I've seen a couple of YouTube videos from the baton-and-knife guys doing their gimmicks.  Their staged routines do indeed look impressive

Okay, so you not only haven't tried it, you've barely even heard of it.

Quote from: Ravenswing;686717For my part, though, if I talk to fifty veteran outdoorsmen, and forty-nine tell me I ought to use an axe, but one guy tells me that a baton-and-KBar work a lot better, whose word do you think I'm going to take?

I don't think you have spoken to fifty outdoorsmen on the matter, but one thing that uniformly characterises actual outdoorsmen, as with most people who do dangerous things in dangerous places, is a mutual respect for one another's craft, and a willingness to learn. I'll leave that with you.

Quote from: Ravenswing;686717Exactly how good at them do you figure a 16-year-old kid would be, and from whom is he going to learn?  At best he's going to be at a quarter-speed, and at worst he's going to lose some fingers he can't replace.

Oho, hold on there. Say what you like about batoning but it's safer than using an axe. No risk of losing fingers, no risk of a sharp piece of metal rebounding at the end of a swing, and no missing blows that finish up with an axehead in your kneecap. There's a reason they say the longer an axe is, the less dangerous it is to use. Shorter axes can go very wrong.

Still different strokes and all that. If I wanted to build a stockade or semi permanent residence I'd definetely pack an axe, and probably bring a mule loaded with related supplies too. For the kind of light work you'd meet on the move, I find it unnecessary. I find there's a lot more control over cuts when batoning as well - the business end is already where you want it to be, you're applying the force after the fact.

Quote from: The Traveller;686808mutual respect for one another's craft, and a willingness to learn.

Yep. He reminds me of American in this Monty Python video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yR5Z4n1TdSI

I haven't heard of that term "baton and knife" before, but now that I watched couple of videos, I would say that yes, that is good way to make smaller firewood from bigger logs (done it many times). Also quite safe like Traveller said.

Usually outdoorsmen here have two knives: leuku http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_knife and smaller same kind of knife. Or just one big one. Of course axe is better with harder wood, but if you have carrying limit, you must make compromises.

Quote from: Sope;686813Usually outdoorsmen here have two knives: leuku http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_knife and smaller same kind of knife. Or just one big one.

Yeah same here, one small and one big, it gives the most options for use. I like the look of that Sami, it has good depth under the tip for support. Scandinavian blades generally have a great reputation in outdoor circles - tried and trusted, as they say.

Think you guys are overthinking this a smidgen.
Grab a bicycle, stick the highways either 75 or 95 and you should be out of Florida in 4 days then it just depends on where in Georgia they are trying to go no more than 10 days to get anywheres in Georgia.

Quote from: The Traveller;686808I don't think you have spoken to fifty outdoorsmen on the matter, but one thing that uniformly characterises actual outdoorsmen, as with most people who do dangerous things in dangerous places, is a mutual respect for one another's craft, and a willingness to learn. I'll leave that with you.

I refer you, sir, to my second .sig.  I agree with you that I haven't spoken with fifty outdoorsmen on the subject; it's more like eighty.  One loses count after a while.  Now if you and Sope want to play the "How dare someone disagree with me?" game, feel free.

Quote from: Ravenswing;686906I refer you, sir, to my second .sig.  I agree with you that I haven't spoken with fifty outdoorsmen on the subject; it's more like eighty.  One loses count after a while.  Now if you and Sope want to play the "How dare someone disagree with me?" game, feel free.

You're claiming that anybody who doesn't use an axe has no outdoors experience, despite which nobody is saying "How dare someone disagree with me?". As you noted yourself, batoning knives is fast, really fast, when you know what you're doing.

I take it you're a big camper? In some parts of the US there's a culture which rightfully views people who have oversized knives strapped to their belt as wannabe rambos and probably a little unhinged, a bad combination, which is probably where the sark is originating.

There are other countries, and other cultures in those countries, where making the best use of a powerful outdoor tool like a large knife is considered best practise and part of a sensible set of equipment. Will you view a machete-wielding Indonesian as less 'authentic' for using a machete in lieu of an axe? Or are machetes okay? Let's not make this a 'get the last word in' situation, just give some thought to the bigger picture here.

Ravenswing: you accusing me and Traveller is quite odd. You said earlier that axe is necessary and only rookies use camp stoves. When I tried to say that there are uses for camp stoves and it's not just rookies who use those, you said that it's luxury. Then I said that no it isn't and Lord Rocket also agreed with me and even gave some examples when gas stove might be useful.

I also said that I don't find carrying axe with me necessary and prefer small and big knife combo like many do around these parts.

On the other hand I haven't spoken to countless outdoorsmen... (Why is quantity so important?). If I would like to know about travelling outdoors during wintertime I would rather talk to for example one reliable Swedish Fjälljäger than to countless know-it-all-guys. Same thing applies to mountaineering and Swiss climbers.

Outside of a sturdy knife, a firestarter, and solid layers, primitive skills supersede any item someone can carry. Dead serious.

Couple of hints for camping outside.

Instead of tent you can sleep in laavu http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lean-to (read the bottom part) Just build it from couple of sturdy branches and smaller branches with lots of leaves.

For cooking you can bulid swedish torch. Either large one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWjEtZr1uR0 or smaller one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFKzvWDeiFc depending on what kind of tools you have and what burning material.

Guns. If you have those, in a lawless society, you can end up getting everything else.

Quote from: RPGPundit;687393Guns. If you have those, in a lawless society, you can end up getting everything else.

Which works great right up until someone shoots you for waving a gun in their face.