Has anyone been using Simon Washbourne's Supers! RPG (http://www.rpgnow.com/product/105204/SUPERS!-The-Comic-Book-RPG) for their superhero game? I'm an admirer of his fine work on some other titles, but I've been toying around with ICONS and have sort of ignored this one. I see where the print/pdf bundle is still available at C7 (https://www.epayments.co.uk/epages/es113347.sf/sec79583d9e85/?ObjectPath=/Shops/es113347_shop/Products/CB75501), and was thinking about getting it.
Does it do anything better than ICONS, or how is the feel different? What's your experience with it?
Ran it once, a few weeks ago, when only half the gang showed up for the WFRP game. Chose not to run WFRP and ran this instead, making up an adventure on the fly.
Ridiculously simple chargen. I can put together a character in a minute or less; 2-5 minutes for players unfamiliar with the system. No exaggeration. However, my two players spent ALL their dice (0 hero dice for both) and ended up with 7D or 8D in one or two powers, vastly dominating the game and never failing at anything.
The game moves very quickly. You roll as many dice as indicated in your Skill or Power, and compare to a difficulty table, or to your opponents' roll. If it's combat, loser takes damage to one of his or her Resistances (Composure, Fortitude, Reaction or Willpower). If any one Resistance hits 0, you are incapacitated.
The idea that you can attack or defend with any power (e.g. Professor X attacks with Telepathy and Juggernaut defends with Super-Strength) is fun at first but ends up with all powers -- and eventually even the characters -- feeling very "samey".
That's all I got from a really quick, seat-ofthe-pants game.
Won't run it again (sorry Simon. You rock but Supers! just isn't my cuppa) and nowadays I suspect something crunchier like Wild Talents, M&M or Hero might better appeal to the DC Heroes (MEGS) fan in me. Nevertheless, I'd still loike to give ICONS a try. And if all else fails, Savage Worlds with the Super Powers Companion actually looks pretty good to me; maybve you should check it out too.
Isn't the game in the planning stages for a second edition? I bought it but it's on the pile of stuff yet to play. Truth told it kinda looked like a homegrown indie effort, but sometimes the best ideas come from homegrown indie types.
I think someone was trying the bash the round peg of BoL into a square Superheroes hole but its gone quiet on that front as far as I know.
Come to think of it, BASH! is an option too, or the old Marvel FASERIP game available free off the internetweb place here (http://www.classicmarvelforever.com/cms/basic-game-and-modules.html)
Supers! has its fans but against the might of fan love for M&M and Marvel Heroic it might always be another little supers game. Be interesting to see what happens with Icons now that Steve Kenson is back in charge of it.
Its a nice simple little game. I think its fun, however, it isn't as genre aware as Icons or H&S or similar games--for me that's a small problem as I like the games doing the genres well.
Quote from: Silverlion;632990Its a nice simple little game. I think its fun, however, it isn't as genre aware as Icons or H&S or similar games--for me that's a small problem as I like the games doing the genres well.
Interesting! Could you perhaps give an example? Your comments on supers gaming are always worth hearing, IMO. :)
While a solid game it doesn't really play up say epithets (Icons), banter (H&S) or the pace and language of comics. Its not bad, or anything just another game.
Comics at least better/earlier comics use language fairly specificially for some over the top things like the things "It's Clobberin Time" or the Hulks "Strongest one there is.." or Spider-Man's constant prattling/taunting speech to his foes. The are things that it would be fun if games took a look at and found a way to include them.
The game doesn't explain how to threaten relationships/loved ones in interesting manners (not that many games do that.) However, it is nice to have advice on those things on how to run a superhero game and get the feel to seem like you are participating in a comic book, as opposed to a game about the same subjects as comic books.
Hey folks!
I'm a HUGE fan of SUPERS!. I picked it up a couple of years ago, and it didn't make an impression. Then I picked it up again, and I truly realized how flexible and comprehensive it is! I still play other games occasionally, like BASH, but SUPERS! is now my go to game for superhero gaming.
The sameyness mentioned by The Butcher can happen, but only if you aren't reveling in the game's narrative elements. Juggernaut can't defend against Professor X's Mind Blast with his Super Strength, unless he can come up with a cool narrative explanation for why he's doing that. There is strategy involved too, because using the Super Strength for Defense means that Juggy can't use it for attack the same round, so he might not want to do that.
Anyway, a Revised Edition is in the works. It promises to kick it up a notch in terms of presentation, examples of play, etc.
Best,
Dragonfly
Quote from: Silverlion;632990It isn't as genre aware as Icons or H&S or similar games--for me that's a small problem as I like the games doing the genres well.
I can see what you mean here in terms of presentation. Systemwise, however, it includes much of this. For example, it has a mechanic for social damage. The Presence Aptitude is meant to allow characters like Spider-Man to render their foes ineffective with witty banter and taunting, or a character like Captain America to subdue a crowd with a commanding speech. That stuff isn't highlighted, though, so it takes awhile to realize its there. Personally, I find that the narrative approach it brings to combat allows me to model comics action far more easily than any other superhero game that I've played (and I've played most of them).
The revised edition promises to provide far more in terms of options and advice. I hope it also brings a sense of comics fun to the way its presented.
I remember back in the day when I played Champions (for like 20 years straight). The game was hyper crunchy (almost intrusively or oppressively so), but what drew me in were the Stan Lee-esque advice sections, Fox Bat's breaking the fourth wall, and all sorts of other gimmicks that made me feel like I was in a comic book. T'was fun. :-)
All the best,
Dragonfly
Here's the review I did for the game: http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=20650
Does anyone have any idea when the Revised Edition is coming out?
Best source of information is here (http://bzenithcomicspresents.runboard.com/) which is the new Supers! owners board and probably the best source of news on the game.
We also play a lot of SUPERS! and have found it to be really good for fast comic book stories. While I personally like ICONS and BASH, my players always want to play SUPERS!
It is deceptively tactical with some neat story game bits without all the meta game elements. The resistance system is great for emulating physical attacks, mental attacks and social attacks with the players describing what the effects are to their characters.
We don't really see the sameness factor as much because you can only use each power once in a panel. So if you attack with your super speed then you have to choose another power, resistance or aptitude to defend. Sure, if you invest all your points into a signature power your going to succeed big when you use it but it will leave you vulnerable in other areas.
I have to say that I get much better player descriptions and storytelling with it than any of the other Superhero games we have played. The mook rules are fast and fun and we have a blast with the environment obstacle battles.
Actually we experienced the sameness factor most with ICONs because of the static numbers and after the third or fourth "It's Clobberin Time" it kind of got boring not to mention trying to take down those big bads with big numbers.
SUPERS! is a lite game with some neat bits but it won't hit the buttons if you want detailed effects style play or crunchy bits. It does have a lot of room for interpretation but with a good group and a few house rules it does it's job admirably.
OK, so re: use of abilities or powers, it's that you can only use once per round. So if Chimpan-Z, genetically modified cyborg ape of the future, uses his Laser Vision this round, he needs to either find a way to incorporate one of his aptitudes or other powers for his next action? So, if I have, say, Laser Vision and Super Speed, I'd need to use each one no more than once in a round, then switch over to Aptitudes like Athletics or Fighting? I assume aptitudes are unlimited use?
You can use a power, aptitude or resistance one time per round. So he might attack with his laser vision then use his super speed to defend against one attacker and then his athletics skill to avoid a second attack or maybe use his fortitude resistance to take it on the chin and keep fighting. Now you can take boosts to give him a split attack for say his laser vision so it can be used twice.
The system really makes you think about using all your skills and powers to be effective.
The next round he might use his Fighting aptitude to clock the guy who took a swing at him then laser blast the car that was hurled at him and his super speed to get clear of those chain wielding mooks closing in on him.
The fun comes trying to describe how your using your powers rather than what they can and can't do.
Quote from: Malistyr;633316You can use a power, aptitude or resistance one time per round. So he might attack with his laser vision then use his super speed to defend against one attacker and then his athletics skill to avoid a second attack or maybe use his fortitude resistance to take it on the chin and keep fighting. Now you can take boosts to give him a split attack for say his laser vision so it can be used twice.
The system really makes you think about using all your skills and powers to be effective.
The next round he might use his Fighting aptitude to clock the guy who took a swing at him then laser blast the car that was hurled at him and his super speed to get clear of those chain wielding mooks closing in on him.
The fun comes trying to describe how your using your powers rather than what they can and can't do.
I couldn't have described it better, so I won't try. I'll say this - the first time I read the rules I put them aside somewhat disdainfully, thinking, "What! Spider-Man can only use his Reaction to dodge once per round? That doesn't emulate the comics! How's he supposed to take on the Sinister Six!?" About a year later I tested the system by doing write-ups of about 30 Marvel characters then pit them against each other. That's when I realized that Spider-Man (or a character like him) would have PLENTY. He avoids Electro with a Reaction check (dipping out of the way of his blast), avoids Rhino with Super Leap (jumping over the charging behemoth), Green Goblin with his Webs power (thwipping a pole in mid-leap, and swinging out of the blast radius of his pumpkin bomb), Sandman with his Danger Sense (detecting the attack before it even begins and acting accordingly), and Doc Ock with Wall Crawling (as he runs up a wall to avoid his arms). He runs right up to Mysterio and clocks him with his Super Strength.
Now, he probably would have taken some damage from these attacks. The player could decide how this damage is applied - either to Fortutude (minor scratches from shattering walls or exploding bombs), Composure (torn mask from shrapnel that makes Spidey worry that his Secret ID will be discovered), or Reaction (minor taser like effects because Electro's blast came a little too close), but he'd probably still be ticking and more than ready to continue the fight.
Makes for some dynamic gaming! :-]
All the best,
Dragonfly
You really, really need that kind of description in the 2e rulebook. The Resistances were one of the hardest parts of the rules for me to understand.
Yep, once I got the concept that Resistances were both abilities-like and damage tracks it all kind of clicked for me. I also dismissed SUPERS! at first like Dragonfly. Then after Mutants and Masterminds took up a whole session just trying to making characters and ICONS stalled looking up powers and trying to puzzle out stunts and determined effort, I tossed SUPERS! out for a one shot. After 30 minutes of character making and explaining the rules we started to have fun. We screwed up a few things at first but it didn't detract from the fun at all.
It took a session to realize that everything on the character sheet is useful in many different situations and that explaining how that works is a lot of fun and colorful to the story. I think the competency pool was the hardest to grok at first but now we have that down we can mix different power levels and everyone plays a significant role in the campaign and everyone feels awesome at what they do. Which is always a good thing.
It is also a pretty simple system to tweak and I think it is a great system to run with little prep. But my favorite aspect of the game is I get to tell my players yeah sure give it a try and see what happens.
Also it doesn't explain much about teamwork but having a street level guy feint to use up a big bads major ability so the uber guy has a chance to whittle down his resistance on a follow up attack removes the "we can't hurt this guy" syndrome I find in other games.
Don't dismiss the game because it seems too simple as it has some layers that aren't apparent on a read through like I did at first. We have done gritty street level up to cosmic and so far it hasn't broken. We did slow down the experience growth some to make it viable for longer campaigns and slower power changes but otherwise we enjoy it immensely. We have even used it for a high fantasy game with little tweaking.
Quote from: danbuter;633392You really, really need that kind of description in the 2e rulebook. The Resistances were one of the hardest parts of the rules for me to understand.
Trust me! It'll be in there! The owners have stated that the biggest change to the Revised Edtion will be rules clarifications and examples, examples, examples! :-)
All the best,
Dragonfly
I see people disagree with me on Supers! Awesome. I know its a good game at its heart, still nice to see people step up and show where I'm wrong.
I know a Mr. Collins is working on additional materials, since he loves the system.
I appreciate the honest opinions all-around. It sounds like a game with some good things going for it, but also a couple of potential pitfalls I need to look out for. I think I'm going to pull the trigger and order the pdf/print combo from C7, since it's on sale. I'll post some thoughts once I get it and go through it.
Hey Zachary the First,
Let me know what pitfalls you are worried about, and I'll do my best to advise you on them, if you desire. I always enjoy talking about this game and, as Malyster suggested, come and join us over at the SUPERS! board at: http://bzenithcomicspresents.runboard.com/
:-)
All the best,
Dragonfly
Quote from: TGIDragonfly;633845Hey Zachary the First,
Let me know what pitfalls you are worried about, and I'll do my best to advise you on them, if you desire. I always enjoy talking about this game and, as Malyster suggested, come and join us over at the SUPERS! board at: http://bzenithcomicspresents.runboard.com/
:-)
All the best,
Dragonfly
Very kind of you. I'm not sure how long it will take C7 to get my print and pdf copies to me, but once I do, I'll be sure to visit!
-Zachary
Quote from: TGIDragonfly;633845Hey Zachary the First,
Let me know what pitfalls you are worried about, and I'll do my best to advise you on them, if you desire. I always enjoy talking about this game and, as Malyster suggested, come and join us over at the SUPERS! board at: http://bzenithcomicspresents.runboard.com/
:-)
All the best,
Dragonfly
Or, you know, you guys could join us over here!
RPGPundit
Quote from: Zachary The First;633893Very kind of you. I'm not sure how long it will take C7 to get my print and pdf copies to me, but once I do, I'll be sure to visit!
-Zachary
I'm not sure Cubicle 7 are advertising it as a print and pdf bundle, so you might want to double-check that.
When I sold SUPERS! to Hazard Studios, under the deal I had to pull the pdf but C7 were still allowed to sell off their remaining print stock (hence the sale price).
Quote from: Simon W;634273I'm not sure Cubicle 7 are advertising it as a print and pdf bundle, so you might want to double-check that.
When I sold SUPERS! to Hazard Studios, under the deal I had to pull the pdf but C7 were still allowed to sell off their remaining print stock (hence the sale price).
I'm going to be pretty pissed if that's the case. They have it listed under print/pdf bundles, which is the whole reason I went ahead and bought it that way.
Quote from: RPGPundit;634196Or, you know, you guys could join us over here!
RPGPundit
Well, I already have! :-P
I'm just saying that there is a very robust SUPERS! discussion going on at the official boards, so folks might want to check that out in addition to this excellent community. :-)
Best,
Dragonfly
Quote from: TGIDragonfly;634318Well, I already have! :-P
I'm just saying that there is a very robust SUPERS! discussion going on at the official boards, so folks might want to check that out in addition to this excellent community. :-)
Best,
Dragonfly
Now's there's a diplomat! :)
Quote from: Zachary The First;634325Now's there's a diplomat! :)
Well, I meant every word! :D
All the best,
Dragonfly
Quote from: Zachary The First;634292I'm going to be pretty pissed if that's the case. They have it listed under print/pdf bundles, which is the whole reason I went ahead and bought it that way.
Hey there,
Walt from HAZARD... If you send me a PM i can rectify the whole no PDF thing.
Regards,
Walt
Quote from: kroh;634398Hey there,
Walt from HAZARD... If you send me a PM i can rectify the whole no PDF thing.
Regards,
Walt
Awesome! Sure thing!
Quote from: kroh;634398Hey there,
Walt from HAZARD... If you send me a PM i can rectify the whole no PDF thing.
Regards,
Walt
There's cool! :cool:
Good show!
Definitely! Looking forward to receiving the pdf!
I would like to contrast this to the response I've received from Cubicle 7, which has been nothing. I emailed them a few days ago with my concerns, and have yet to hear back from anyone.
Have you had time to look through our little game system?
Regards,
Walt
Quote from: kroh;635020Have you had time to look through our little game system?
Regards,
Walt
Hi Walt,
Started messing with it a bit last night. Very easy to get, and seems nicely flexible. I have more to read, but so far, so good.
Zach,
Glad to see you're enjoying it so far. I was one of many who didn't really get into it at first, but later went back and saw it in a better light later. More importantly, I got to play a PbP game on the BBG forums at Pen & Paper last year, and it helped me really understand how easy the game is to both play and run. It is a little rough around the edges, but hopefully the upcoming revised edition will fix that.
Quote from: urbwar;635257Zach,
Glad to see you're enjoying it so far. I was one of many who didn't really get into it at first, but later went back and saw it in a better light later. More importantly, I got to play a PbP game on the BBG forums at Pen & Paper last year, and it helped me really understand how easy the game is to both play and run. It is a little rough around the edges, but hopefully the upcoming revised edition will fix that.
Well, what I like so far is sort of having to think about how to use various abilities each turn. I can do my eyebeam blast, but I can't just do it every single time out. So maybe I use my eyebeam blast, then smash someone who I just stunned with an uppercut, then use my strength to throw them off the platform.
I have a feeling I'm going to have to get a game going to really get a feel for it, though.
Quote from: Zachary The First;635267Well, what I like so far is sort of having to think about how to use various abilities each turn. I can do my eyebeam blast, but I can't just do it every single time out. So maybe I use my eyebeam blast, then smash someone who I just stunned with an uppercut, then use my strength to throw them off the platform.
I have a feeling I'm going to have to get a game going to really get a feel for it, though.
Playing really opened my eyes on how the game works, so yeah, playing it will help give you a better feel for it.
I was trying to run a pbp game over on the bbg forums at Pen & Paper, but it seems to have fizzled out before it was going to start.
I'd definitely be curious to see what they're going to shore in a revised edition. Is that going to be a Kickstarter?
Quote from: Zachary The First;635363I'd definitely be curious to see what they're going to shore in a revised edition. Is that going to be a Kickstarter?
You should check out the Zenith forums, as there is a sub-forum dedicated to discussing the revised edition. They're getting input from the fans before making final decisions on things, so you can get in on helping them choose what examples and such to us.
No idea on a KS.
They just released a quickstart on RPGNow (http://www.rpgnow.com/product/112152/SUPERS%21-Quick-Start), which I hope will get more people to check the game out.
Quote from: urbwar;635336I was trying to run a pbp game over on the bbg forums at Pen & Paper, but it seems to have fizzled out before it was going to start.
Run it via IRC? SKYPE? Something? :D
Quote from: Zachary The First;635267Well, what I like so far is sort of having to think about how to use various abilities each turn. I can do my eyebeam blast, but I can't just do it every single time out. So maybe I use my eyebeam blast, then smash someone who I just stunned with an uppercut, then use my strength to throw them off the platform.
This works out beautifully in play: it forces you to mix things up, but it also allows for a very easy way of handling defense against multiple attacks. My primary beef with SUPERS! is the way Simon handled normals versus supers, but even that is a minor concern. It's a great game.
EDIT: BTW, that's a great little quickstart file. The game is definitely in good hands.
Quote from: Silverlion;635465Run it via IRC? SKYPE? Something? :D
I don't have IRC, and while I have Skype, I don't have a headset/mike at the moment, so that would make it somewhat difficult.
I could always see about running one here, since it has a pbp forum. Does the forum have a dice roller?
Quote from: urbwar;635574I don't have IRC, and while I have Skype, I don't have a headset/mike at the moment, so that would make it somewhat difficult.
I could always see about running one here, since it has a pbp forum. Does the forum have a dice roller?
Shame, because PBP's are too slow and I lose focus. (Less so than some people, but still.)
Quote from: Silverlion;635620Shame, because PBP's are too slow and I lose focus. (Less so than some people, but still.)
I'll eventually get a headset/mike, and see about running something on Skype and/or G+ someday.
Quote from: Maltese Changeling;635468This works out beautifully in play: it forces you to mix things up, but it also allows for a very easy way of handling defense against multiple attacks. My primary beef with SUPERS! is the way Simon handled normals versus supers, but even that is a minor concern. It's a great game.
EDIT: BTW, that's a great little quickstart file. The game is definitely in good hands.
Howdy Maltese Changeling!
What, specifically, bothers you about the way that Simon handled normals vs. supers? I'm one of the authors of the Revised Edition, so I'd be curious to hear your take.
Oh, and urbwar and Silverlion - I'd love play in that PbP if it pans out. Keep me in mind!
All the best,
Dragonfly
Quote from: TGIDragonfly;635738What, specifically, bothers you about the way that Simon handled normals vs. supers? I'm one of the authors of the Revised Edition, so I'd be curious to hear your take.
Hmm. It's possible that I just had trouble with the way the "Normal" disadvantage intersected with the rules for non-powered heroes. I.e., if I don't have any powers but also don't take the "Normal" disad, am I limited to best 3 of X for my reaction rolls? The game never said. I was hoping for either a more thoroughgoing explanation of how one dealt with the "Normal" / "normal" issue or an elimination of the disad altogether.
Quote from: Maltese Changeling;636262Hmm. It's possible that I just had trouble with the way the "Normal" disadvantage intersected with the rules for non-powered heroes. I.e., if I don't have any powers but also don't take the "Normal" disad, am I limited to best 3 of X for my reaction rolls? The game never said. I was hoping for either a more thoroughgoing explanation of how one dealt with the "Normal" / "normal" issue or an elimination of the disad altogether.
Ah! Yes, I found this confusing too. The way it works in the current RAW is that all Aptitudes, whether you take the "Normal" Disad for your character or not, are capped at 3 of X. This is meant to represent the fact that Aptitudes are mundane skills and, therefore, only capable of mundane results.
Resistances and Powers don't suffer from the 3 of X rule, UNLESS you take the "Normal" Disad. At that point, you are not allowed to purchase Powers anyway, and all of your Resistances are treated like Aptitudes in terms of their maximum effect.
Personally, I don't like the Disad, but I'm not sure that we're removing it yet. That's a conversation we need to have.
All the best,
Dragonfly
Quote from: TGIDragonfly;636529Ah! Yes, I found this confusing too. The way it works in the current RAW is that all Aptitudes, whether you take the "Normal" Disad for your character or not, are capped at 3 of X. This is meant to represent the fact that Aptitudes are mundane skills and, therefore, only capable of mundane results.
I saw this in the Quickstart and liked it quite a lot.