Quote from: ForgottenF on September 06, 2022, 08:01:02 AM

Quote from: Lord Dynel on September 06, 2022, 06:15:29 AM
I might suggest maybe a "bridge" product that has many character class options from the OSR realm.  Something like OSE or Astonishing Swordsmen and Sorcerers of Hyperborea.  That way, there are many character options available to the players and they can settle into their own without feeling distinct from each other.  One problem I've encountered getting people on board with OSR games is the old "all X classes are the same," even though I try to explain to them that it's about how you play the class.  They still want mechanical differences.  This way, you get the simple OSR game, and the players might get to feel different from one another.  It's not "base" OSR, but maybe a compromise might help them get on board.

I would add that there are a lot of games out there which are not strictly OSR games, but are still quite a bit simpler than WOTC-era D&D. One of these sort of "OSR-adjacent" games like Shadow of the Demon Lord or Symbaroum might be more palatable for your players, and still give you what you want as a DM.

I too enjoy Shadow of the Demon Lord. It is a blend of old and new without the baggage of either.

Quote from: Avus on September 06, 2022, 10:51:00 AM
That is some damn good advice actually, I will have to give that a shot. And yeah it seems they influence eachother constantly now that you mention it. That'll probably help them be more creative as well in the long run. I will always enjoy DMing, but I want to beat them over the head sometimes with my 5e books.

Thank you, although I'm not sure I would call it "good" advice. Penalizing the players for lacking imagination is a bit of a jerk move. But if your players are CAPABLE of being creative and simply not implementing it (relying on the dice to do the talking), then it may be reasonable to nudge them in a direction you'd like to see at your table.

Also remind them that gaming is intended to be fun for everyone, and you aren't having much fun. Game Mastering is a role, just like the one's the characters fill. The GM is not a mere tool, there only for the benefit of the other players.

I'm also going to parrot rystrasmi's advice. Try including more old-skool gaming principles into your game and see how receptive the players are.

Add me to the small group advocating for changing how you approach 5e instead of throwing it out. Switching systems under these circumstances is likely to cost you the group.

How/when you call for rolls and DM style can have a dramatic effect on how a game feels. Perception, Insight and Investigation rolls, for example, should be severely minimized. You almost never need them. If you sub in active game instead, your players' skill at playing the game will also improve.

As a sidebar, it always amazes me how little it is acknowledged that there is skill to this hobby, skill that grows and develops with time.

I play (and publish) 5e and OSR stuff but I dont feel interested in the current changes, so I'm going OSR all the way, at least for now.

5e had a decent run and I still use stuff from modern editions (feats, skills, etc.), but the bloat is unnecessary.

For me there is a perfect middle between 5e and OSR. Maybe try Into the Unknown (if you want lighter 5e) or one of my products (if you want OSR with more customization). There are dozens of games with a similar premise, many of them very good.

Quote from: HappyDaze on September 06, 2022, 11:13:15 AM

Quote from: ForgottenF on September 06, 2022, 08:01:02 AM

Quote from: Lord Dynel on September 06, 2022, 06:15:29 AM
I might suggest maybe a "bridge" product that has many character class options from the OSR realm.  Something like OSE or Astonishing Swordsmen and Sorcerers of Hyperborea.  That way, there are many character options available to the players and they can settle into their own without feeling distinct from each other.  One problem I've encountered getting people on board with OSR games is the old "all X classes are the same," even though I try to explain to them that it's about how you play the class.  They still want mechanical differences.  This way, you get the simple OSR game, and the players might get to feel different from one another.  It's not "base" OSR, but maybe a compromise might help them get on board.

I would add that there are a lot of games out there which are not strictly OSR games, but are still quite a bit simpler than WOTC-era D&D. One of these sort of "OSR-adjacent" games like Shadow of the Demon Lord or Symbaroum might be more palatable for your players, and still give you what you want as a DM.

I too enjoy Shadow of the Demon Lord. It is a blend of old and new without the baggage of either.

Yeah, SotDL definitely could fall into that category.  Fairly rules light (compared to 5e) and lots of options/customization.

Quote from: FingerRod on September 06, 2022, 07:21:12 PM
Add me to the small group advocating for changing how you approach 5e instead of throwing it out. Switching systems under these circumstances is likely to cost you the group.

How/when you call for rolls and DM style can have a dramatic effect on how a game feels. Perception, Insight and Investigation rolls, for example, should be severely minimized. You almost never need them. If you sub in active game instead, your players' skill at playing the game will also improve.

As a sidebar, it always amazes me how little it is acknowledged that there is skill to this hobby, skill that grows and develops with time.

This is my perspective. Back in 2014 Mearls & co (including our Pundit) I think did a very good job creating a game driftable to a wide range of play styles. Since taking over, Crawford has been working to drift it to his own preferred style, but you don't have to go that way. If you look at eg the 5e Basic Rules, it looks an awful lot like Mentzer Classic D&D. While 5e does not do very-low-magic, it can do a lot of fantasy genres very well.

That said, I definitely recommend other systems as a cure for 5e burnout. In 2020 I ran a 10 month Mini Six game in the Primeval Thule setting, and I currently have a great White Star (OD&D-based space opera) PBP running. Previously I ran some Swords & Wizardry likewise, and played various things. All 5e all the time I think is a recipe for burnout. You can tell your group "I'm taking a break from 5e for a few months. I'm looking to run some X in the meantime. Anyone interested?" It's important you make clear (a) you ARE taking a break from 5e and (b) You would love to run game X with them, but their choice is whether they want to play X with you, or you look for someone else to play it with.

One of the best ways to learn how to run 5E in an old school style is to run an old school game in its style.  You can easily run 5E that way if you know that style, but the game doesn't teach you how to do it, or encourage it.  So I agree with S'mon.  When there is that big a difference between the GM's fun and what the players are doing, the answer is to shake it up some.  It almost doesn't matter what you pick, as long as it is different and you bill it as a short, change of pace. 

Quote from: Eric Diaz on September 06, 2022, 07:26:25 PM
For me there is a perfect middle between 5e and OSR. Maybe try Into the Unknown (if you want lighter 5e) or one of my products (if you want OSR with more customization). There are dozens of games with a similar premise, many of them very good.

I was just coming to mention Into the Unknown as a possible middle ground.  I haven't played it a lot, but the sessions I did were quite fun and the compressed number of options still felt like it gave you a lot of customization for your character.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on September 07, 2022, 08:21:29 AM
One of the best ways to learn how to run 5E in an old school style is to run an old school game in its style.  You can easily run 5E that way if you know that style, but the game doesn't teach you how to do it, or encourage it.  So I agree with S'mon.  When there is that big a difference between the GM's fun and what the players are doing, the answer is to shake it up some.  It almost doesn't matter what you pick, as long as it is different and you bill it as a short, change of pace.

Excellent advice - I ran a lot of OSRIC & Labyrinth Lord (ie AD&D and B/X D&D) in the years leading up to my first 5e campaign, which I think REALLY helped in making it a huge success. It was a sandbox in the Wilderlands, Barbarian Altanis, and a long long way from the fairly crappy WoTC campaign hardbacks.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on September 07, 2022, 08:21:29 AM
One of the best ways to learn how to run 5E in an old school style is to run an old school game in its style.  You can easily run 5E that way if you know that style, but the game doesn't teach you how to do it, or encourage it.  So I agree with S'mon.  When there is that big a difference between the GM's fun and what the players are doing, the answer is to shake it up some.  It almost doesn't matter what you pick, as long as it is different and you bill it as a short, change of pace.

I agree. Something like Five Torches Deep would be good too. It's 5e but streamlined through the filter of B/X or at least OSR style design. If a group is one of those annoying ones who only plays 5E then you can show them Five Torches Deep to see how they like it. But in my experience there are some who won't play anything without an official WotC logo on it.

This is a great thread with a lot of good advice.

It seems to me, that many people indeed view 5e as a sort of video game and/or a board game. Especially if using
miniatures (I´m not against them in principle) and bought terrain maps, it easily lessens the need for imagination
or atleast that is how I´v perceived it, the focus is on the little dudes on the table and not in the vast world around
them.

Character creation in 5e also feels more like a RPG video game if nothing else. Players in my group have told
me, that in the other groups they play in, they have had troubles in getting new players to play anything other than
5e for "it is the best" supposedly due to the Critical Role and due to presence of DnD in general in social media etc.
And 5e is a sort of a super hero game set in fantasy world, which propably ticks many boxes the new players thirst for.

Even if you do not want to play 5e anymore, there is of course a ton a variables between the 5e and OSR, it depends
quite a bit on the taste whether you want a simulationist, gamist or narrative approach rules-wise:

GNS Theory:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNS_theory

As others have suggested, I think that the answer is probably to run 5E but steal ideas and style from older games. My group wants to play 5E only, but they are okay with some adjustments so I use the alternate rest system from the DMG that limits how quickly they regain their powers. Resource conservation is a key element in Old School games, so this adjustment alone is a step in the right direction. I use a "milestone" approach for XP so that I can control how fast they level up, which keeps the party in the lower part (cap out around level of the game, which also adds to the Old School flavor. Stuff like that can make 5E seem very much like the 80's style of play.