So I've been ocassionally been DMing for a few irl friends and I over the past few years in 5e, doing one-shots. I always thought until recently (a few months ago) that it was the best version of DnD. I started playing TTRPGs with Pathfinder five years ago with some friends online, and didn't like how complex everything was. 5e was like a breath of fresh air kinda in terms of how simplified it was from 3.5e/Pathfinder, yet now I see 5e as overly complicated after getting ahold of the ADnD core books and OSRIC and paging through them.

Everything seems so much simpler in the older systems and doesn't have the bloat newer systems contain. I enjoy just seeing "magic-user" instead of what are essentially just 3 of the same class with slightly altered spell trees, or not having multiple pages of sub-classes. I tried to get my irl friends to play OSRIC to see if they enjoy it and they say they like 5e more because of customization, yet I see it more as bloat than customization. Am I wrong on this, and how can I convince them to try OSRIC or even ADnD with me so I can see if I truly like it more than 5e?

Welcome to the site!

What you have is a common problem, it seems. You're not wrong to want to do this. There are many great OSR and non-5e games.

I've had success with just springing new games on my group, well really sub-sets of my regular group. Some of us had a board game night and I brought out my DCC book and said "hey check this out." Someone said "it would be cool to try when we had more time," and I said "I have pre-gens right here, my dude, let's go." That might work for your group.

You need to make it easy for them. Call a one-shot with pre-gens. Tell them there are some good ideas in the game you can steal for your regular 5e game. Sell it as an experiment with no commitment. And no advance study required, and be ready with all the rules. One-system-ism is an addiction, and you gotta make the initial treatment easy.

There's quite a range within OSR games, and some of them will be a harder sell to new school players than others. I would not recommend trying to pitch a game with THAC0 to a group of people that are used to 5e, and I would not recommend pitching them a super stripped-down game like Lamentations of the Flame Princess.

This thread is on a similar issue, and has lots of recommendations for games that will be a gentler introduction to the OSR for nu-school players.
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/3-x-style-osr-games/

Old school games can be so much simpler, faster game play.  More emphasis is often placed on GM rulings in the moment.

If you want to streamline, try B/X.  If that is too simple add a few of your favorite rules - I like advantage and disadvantage for example.

To sell your friends, show them a character sheet and how much simpler everything is.  Good luck.

Why not both? I run a lot of 5e, but I'm also running the OSR SF game White Star (based off Swords & Wizardry/OD&D) and loving that too. You might try running OSR in a non-D&D genre for a one shot or short campaign?

I might suggest maybe a "bridge" product that has many character class options from the OSR realm.  Something like OSE or Astonishing Swordsmen and Sorcerers of Hyperborea.  That way, there are many character options available to the players and they can settle into their own without feeling distinct from each other.  One problem I've encountered getting people on board with OSR games is the old "all X classes are the same," even though I try to explain to them that it's about how you play the class.  They still want mechanical differences.  This way, you get the simple OSR game, and the players might get to feel different from one another.  It's not "base" OSR, but maybe a compromise might help them get on board.

 

Quote from: Lord Dynel on September 06, 2022, 06:15:29 AM
I might suggest maybe a "bridge" product that has many character class options from the OSR realm.  Something like OSE or Astonishing Swordsmen and Sorcerers of Hyperborea.  That way, there are many character options available to the players and they can settle into their own without feeling distinct from each other.  One problem I've encountered getting people on board with OSR games is the old "all X classes are the same," even though I try to explain to them that it's about how you play the class.  They still want mechanical differences.  This way, you get the simple OSR game, and the players might get to feel different from one another.  It's not "base" OSR, but maybe a compromise might help them get on board.

That might work, that is one of the issues, they don't want to think beyond the mechanics that the 5e book gives them. Even when talking to NPCs, they'll immediately go to using a skill.

Quote from: S'mon on September 06, 2022, 04:50:16 AM
Why not both? I run a lot of 5e, but I'm also running the OSR SF game White Star (based off Swords & Wizardry/OD&D) and loving that too. You might try running OSR in a non-D&D genre for a one shot or short campaign?

In all honesty, I am burnt on 5e with being a DM. I've gotten to where I almost hate DMing it for my group since they do nothing interesting, and see 5e more as like a video game where everything has to be mechanical and listed in the book in how they interact with the world. Its honestly why i started looking for new systems and ended up here.

Quote from: Avus on September 06, 2022, 06:54:30 AM

Quote from: Lord Dynel on September 06, 2022, 06:15:29 AM
I might suggest maybe a "bridge" product that has many character class options from the OSR realm.  Something like OSE or Astonishing Swordsmen and Sorcerers of Hyperborea.  That way, there are many character options available to the players and they can settle into their own without feeling distinct from each other.  One problem I've encountered getting people on board with OSR games is the old "all X classes are the same," even though I try to explain to them that it's about how you play the class.  They still want mechanical differences.  This way, you get the simple OSR game, and the players might get to feel different from one another.  It's not "base" OSR, but maybe a compromise might help them get on board.

That might work, that is one of the issues, they don't want to think beyond the mechanics that the 5e book gives them. Even when talking to NPCs, they'll immediately go to using a skill.

Quote from: S'mon on September 06, 2022, 04:50:16 AM
Why not both? I run a lot of 5e, but I'm also running the OSR SF game White Star (based off Swords & Wizardry/OD&D) and loving that too. You might try running OSR in a non-D&D genre for a one shot or short campaign?

In all honesty, I am burnt on 5e with being a DM. I've gotten to where I almost hate DMing it for my group since they do nothing interesting, and see 5e more as like a video game where everything has to be mechanical and listed in the book in how they interact with the world. Its honestly why i started looking for new systems and ended up here.

I'm in the same boat.

I have gone with DCC for Lankhmar, Dying Earth, and Umerica (which I generally enjoy more than MCC although Wampler's work on that game and 3PP supplements through Mudpuppy Games are amazing!).

When I'm not in the mood for weird dice, it's Talislanta or Castles & Crusades and Amazing Adventures. The Hero's Journey 2E is also pretty cool. And I love Hyperborea.

For sci-fi, I'm leaning heavily towards FrontierSpace, Death in Space, and HOSTILE. Stars Without Number is a favorite too, but I got into that too late to avoid a $100 print copy of a book I'd still have to convince my group to play.

Steering as far as I can from WotC...

Quote from: Lord Dynel on September 06, 2022, 06:15:29 AM
I might suggest maybe a "bridge" product that has many character class options from the OSR realm.  Something like OSE or Astonishing Swordsmen and Sorcerers of Hyperborea.  That way, there are many character options available to the players and they can settle into their own without feeling distinct from each other.  One problem I've encountered getting people on board with OSR games is the old "all X classes are the same," even though I try to explain to them that it's about how you play the class.  They still want mechanical differences.  This way, you get the simple OSR game, and the players might get to feel different from one another.  It's not "base" OSR, but maybe a compromise might help them get on board.

I would add that there are a lot of games out there which are not strictly OSR games, but are still quite a bit simpler than WOTC-era D&D. One of these sort of "OSR-adjacent" games like Shadow of the Demon Lord or Symbaroum might be more palatable for your players, and still give you what you want as a DM.

How much of the inertia to trying to get your group to try an OSR game (or anything not 5e) is due to lack of time to learn the rules set? Or is it lack of access to the rules set? Or is it simple "D&D Snobbery" where they don't want to play something that isn't "official?"

What I'm getting at is that switching to an OSR rules set might also make you burnt out if the gameplay theme and style is the same.

Would it be doable to rotate the DM duties, using that as the bridge to OSR since it is likely easier for a new DM to run since there is less complexity?

Or does it make sense if they are uncertain to do it as a one-shot?  Heck, you could even go and switch to a different genre if you need a break, before jumping back in to D&D using an OSR set of rules.

Quote from: 3catcircus on September 06, 2022, 09:25:33 AM
How much of the inertia to trying to get your group to try an OSR game (or anything not 5e) is due to lack of time to learn the rules set? Or is it lack of access to the rules set? Or is it simple "D&D Snobbery" where they don't want to play something that isn't "official?"

What I'm getting at is that switching to an OSR rules set might also make you burnt out if the gameplay theme and style is the same.

Would it be doable to rotate the DM duties, using that as the bridge to OSR since it is likely easier for a new DM to run since there is less complexity?

Or does it make sense if they are uncertain to do it as a one-shot?  Heck, you could even go and switch to a different genre if you need a break, before jumping back in to D&D using an OSR set of rules.

Oh I'm DM, I have no problems with running different systems. We're all in our really early 20s so none of us have a bunch of duties to do nessecarily. It's not snobbery either, its more of their obsession with the "customization" like one of my players calls it for 5e, I just see the metric tons of class features and races as just bloat. They're more or less locked into the perspective of never thinking outside the rules or role playing an action, they play it like a video game and must have the options chosen for them in the rules of how they can interact with the world. The entire prospect of lets say ADnD where skills (not counting the attribute check tables) are non-existant is foreign to them, they got irritated when I was explaining that they didn't have a skill to interact with every little thing.

Quote from: Avus on September 05, 2022, 08:40:26 PM
So I've been ocassionally been DMing for a few irl friends and I over the past few years in 5e, doing one-shots. I always thought until recently (a few months ago) that it was the best version of DnD. I started playing TTRPGs with Pathfinder five years ago with some friends online, and didn't like how complex everything was. 5e was like a breath of fresh air kinda in terms of how simplified it was from 3.5e/Pathfinder, yet now I see 5e as overly complicated after getting ahold of the ADnD core books and OSRIC and paging through them.

Everything seems so much simpler in the older systems and doesn't have the bloat newer systems contain. I enjoy just seeing "magic-user" instead of what are essentially just 3 of the same class with slightly altered spell trees, or not having multiple pages of sub-classes. I tried to get my irl friends to play OSRIC to see if they enjoy it and they say they like 5e more because of customization, yet I see it more as bloat than customization. Am I wrong on this, and how can I convince them to try OSRIC or even ADnD with me so I can see if I truly like it more than 5e?

I am with you there. I discovered B/X OSR stuff after getting frustrated with 5E bloat and I've not gone back. I would say that B/X related OSR products like Old School Essentials are your best bet. 5E was directly inspired by B/X and various OSR people consulted on 5e. I use the advanced version of OSE in my games for a group of kids from 9-16 and they all tell me they're really enjoying it. Advanced OSE does things like decouple Race from class, have Ascending AC, and way more classes if that's what you want. I'd highly recommend it as a gateway to the OSR from 5e. It'll be very familiar to your group. And then after that get them into things like Stars Without Number for sci fi games, Operation Whitebox for WW2 games, and the many, many suppliments produced for B/X since it's launch in the early 80's. There's so much cool stuff to look at. 

Quote from: Avus on September 06, 2022, 09:51:32 AM
Oh I'm DM, I have no problems with running different systems. We're all in our really early 20s so none of us have a bunch of duties to do nessecarily. It's not snobbery either, its more of their obsession with the "customization" like one of my players calls it for 5e, I just see the metric tons of class features and races as just bloat. They're more or less locked into the perspective of never thinking outside the rules or role playing an action, they play it like a video game and must have the options chosen for them in the rules of how they can interact with the world. The entire prospect of lets say ADnD where skills (not counting the attribute check tables) are non-existant is foreign to them, they got irritated when I was explaining that they didn't have a skill to interact with every little thing.

What would happen if you starting running your 5e sessions using OSR principles? E.g., encouraging role play and creativity and resorting to skills/mechanics (perhaps with a bonus for good role play) when the chance of failure remains and failure would be meaningful.

Quote from: Avus on September 06, 2022, 09:51:32 AM
Oh I'm DM, I have no problems with running different systems. We're all in our really early 20s so none of us have a bunch of duties to do nessecarily. It's not snobbery either, its more of their obsession with the "customization" like one of my players calls it for 5e, I just see the metric tons of class features and races as just bloat. They're more or less locked into the perspective of never thinking outside the rules or role playing an action, they play it like a video game and must have the options chosen for them in the rules of how they can interact with the world. The entire prospect of lets say ADnD where skills (not counting the attribute check tables) are non-existant is foreign to them, they got irritated when I was explaining that they didn't have a skill to interact with every little thing.

It sounds like the issue is more of them having a particular mindset than just having system devotion, and that can be very hard to break. Especially since all of them share that mindset, they are reinforcing each other into thinking that way and have created a de facto "one true way to roleplay" (or "roll-play" as it seems). Basically, they have brainwashed themselves into never wanting to try anything else.

You could tell them you need a break from GMing, whether that's true or not. Either let someone else take over, where you as a player can lead by example, or just transition to board games, card games, etc. When they get "itchy" for elf games again, pitch a new setting and take it from there.

Alternatively, you can simply require them to include dialog /narrative with each roll or suffer penalties. If they protest, explain to them that without a detailed enough explanation of what they are doing/saying, the default assumption is the lowest effort possible. Essentially, what the player puts in, the character puts out. No effort in = no effort out.

You know your group best. Choose the method you think will work.
Good Luck!

Quote from: Effete on September 06, 2022, 10:46:02 AM

Quote from: Avus on September 06, 2022, 09:51:32 AM
Oh I'm DM, I have no problems with running different systems. We're all in our really early 20s so none of us have a bunch of duties to do nessecarily. It's not snobbery either, its more of their obsession with the "customization" like one of my players calls it for 5e, I just see the metric tons of class features and races as just bloat. They're more or less locked into the perspective of never thinking outside the rules or role playing an action, they play it like a video game and must have the options chosen for them in the rules of how they can interact with the world. The entire prospect of lets say ADnD where skills (not counting the attribute check tables) are non-existant is foreign to them, they got irritated when I was explaining that they didn't have a skill to interact with every little thing.

It sounds like the issue is more of them having a particular mindset than just having system devotion, and that can be very hard to break. Especially since all of them share that mindset, they are reinforcing each other into thinking that way and have created a de facto "one true way to roleplay" (or "roll-play" as it seems). Basically, they have brainwashed themselves into never wanting to try anything else.

You could tell them you need a break from GMing, whether that's true or not. Either let someone else take over, where you as a player can lead by example, or just transition to board games, card games, etc. When they get "itchy" for elf games again, pitch a new setting and take it from there.

Alternatively, you can simply require them to include dialog /narrative with each roll or suffer penalties. If they protest, explain to them that without a detailed enough explanation of what they are doing/saying, the default assumption is the lowest effort possible. Essentially, what the player puts in, the character puts out. No effort in = no effort out.

You know your group best. Choose the method you think will work.
Good Luck!

That is some damn good advice actually, I will have to give that a shot. And yeah it seems they influence eachother constantly now that you mention it. That'll probably help them be more creative as well in the long run. I will always enjoy DMing, but I want to beat them over the head sometimes with my 5e books.