Quote from: Battlemaster on July 10, 2022, 09:15:35 PM

Yes, once again a 'wokist' slams the right by using WORDS THAT CAME OUT OF RIGHT WING LEADERS MOUTHS to accuse the right of wanting to do extremist things.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/clarence-thomas-supreme-court-reconsider-contraception-gay-marriage-rulings

God is there no limit to their vileness?!?!

So, what exactly does this have to do with Steve Jackson Games and their declaration?

Quote from: jeff37923 on July 10, 2022, 10:44:53 PM
So, what exactly does this have to do with Steve Jackson Games and their declaration?

Nothing. The guy's avatar is basically a Big Purple Troll (and I refuse to believe that's an accident) for Pete's sake.

It's pretty obvious his intent is just to drag people off topic in the hopes that Pundit will get pissed enough to ban someone he dragged onto his non-gaming tangent. Frankly, even having to explain his efforts to derail feels like a derail, so I'll conclude on that topic by saying that the sooner you put the TBP troll on ignore the happier you'll be.

On the actual topic, the two relevant factors as relate to being on the Red List are,

A) his making a point of his white privilege and linking of abortion to the first step in opposing gay marriage and tranny rights, perhaps imposing some sort of religious tithe on the population in his statement; marking his alignment with the Woke.

B) the decision to change purchasing his games from a simple "is it a good game" decision into a political and moral statement by announcing proceeds will be donated to the expressly woke and pro-abortion Lilith Fund. For me to buy one of his products now becomes what my religion calls material cooperation with evil. By buying one of his products going forward you are announcing your cooperation in seeing abortions performed.

When someone requires material cooperation with evil in order to purchase from them, they've gone from kooky eccentric to "someone who hates me and my family and my friends" and those are precisely the type of people the list was designed for; to provide a list of the people who hate us so we don't give them our money.

Quote from: Battlemaster on July 10, 2022, 07:08:28 PM

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 10, 2022, 01:24:49 PM


One of the hallmarks of Wokeness is the belief that nothing is "apolitical", and that anyone who seeks to create an arena of life (like what games one plays for leisure entertainment) where politics is unnecessary or irrelevant is really only seeking to create a bubble where their politics reign unquestioned. Public declarations of position are designed as much to force people out of their supposed "pretenses of neutrality" as they are to strengthen one's own side. The toxicity of this approach to politics is that by definition, it's unfalsifiable: if pleading for a neutral space is never believed to be anything but a stalling or disengagement tactic, then neutral spaces become impossible.  (It has been used by other political alignments as well, q.v. Bush's famous, "You are either with us or with the terrorists," but the universality of this stance is, I think, a uniquely Woke thing.)

Uh, yeah. The right politicized data on smoking causing cancer because big tobacco wanted it discredited. The right politicized data on human influenced climate change because big oil wanted it discredited, it politicized 911 because big oil wanted to steal Iraq's oil and defense contractors wanted a nice profitable war. The right  politicized healthcare reform because big medicorps wanted to keep their profits high. The right politicized covid to divide America.  The right has politicized American history to create strife and division .

Stop trying to move this thread off-topic after my announcement. This is your one and only warning. Any repeated off-topic post in any thread will result in a permanent ban.

  Odd thing about that lilith fund they are putting money into, seems since june 24 they are afraid to fund abortions because of fear from Texas law (which the fund operators call a fear of being involved with the racist criminal justice system for extra spice) going after them.   So what exactly is a fund with lots of money that is made to fund abortions do if they no longer fund abortions and just collect money?   From their page it seems for the short term they are just going to preach the good of abortions instead of helping women who can not afford them get them. 

    It makes me think SJG is really out of touch to not know that before he makes a big statement about funding them.   As another poster has said, maybe his hormones are shot and getting him on TRT will fix his mind to stop blurting off.  Higher T might help lots of woke stuff just go away for that matter.

iirc wasn't the whole deal about Roe Vs Wade was that abortion isn't a constitutional right? In that case I agree

Quote from: oggsmash on July 10, 2022, 10:46:23 AMBut this is where he decides to focus energy and resources from his company, so it IS relevant.

Not to us. Unlike Steve Jackson, most of us are still interested in roleplaying games.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 10, 2022, 02:52:33 PM

Quote from: jhkim on July 10, 2022, 02:09:42 PM

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 10, 2022, 01:24:49 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 10, 2022, 12:49:24 PMI don't think this is really a woke decision per se... (W)hat if a game company came out and made a statement saying that they were delighted with the Roe V Wade thing being overturned. Would they not be entitled to make such a statement?

I'd make the same observation I did before: that the "wokeness" of the action is less in which cause SJG has admitted it's supporting, and more in that it's politicized the act of buying its games at all. A game company coming out as a financial supporter of the NRA, to the extent of calling its customers who favoured gun control "wimps and wusses who c'n keep their goldurn money they don't like it!", would be using Woke tactics as well, if not for typically Woke causes.

One of the hallmarks of Wokeness is the belief that nothing is "apolitical"

I would suggest Venger Satanis' The Good Syma'arian as an example of what Rob Necronomicon is talking about. While it is a free adventure, it is both a political call out and an advertisement for his game Cha'alt. His blog announcement of the adventure went:

This is it... I mean, I've been defending Venger's products online even if I don't agree with him politically per se. But I'll still buy his stuff and say he's got every right to release what he wants. This is why I hate the likes of DT because they are pro-censorship (when it suits them) and pro-certain politics. And I say that as a lefty...

I think there's a big difference between what Venger is doing and what Steve Jackson is doing.

Venger's product is politically charged. In this sense it's much like Thirsty Sword Lesbians. These are just honest products I personally have no interest in.

Jackson, on the other hand, is calling out people, while selling an ostensibly politically-neutral product. These are products I could be interested in, if its consumers weren't being personally attacked by the creator.

As to Stephen's point: spot on. I will continue to avoid work from creators that act this way toward their consumer base, whether I agree with their alleged reasons or not. It's vile and gross.

Quote from: Zalman on July 11, 2022, 07:30:17 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 10, 2022, 02:52:33 PM

Quote from: jhkim on July 10, 2022, 02:09:42 PM

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 10, 2022, 01:24:49 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 10, 2022, 12:49:24 PMI don't think this is really a woke decision per se... (W)hat if a game company came out and made a statement saying that they were delighted with the Roe V Wade thing being overturned. Would they not be entitled to make such a statement?

I'd make the same observation I did before: that the "wokeness" of the action is less in which cause SJG has admitted it's supporting, and more in that it's politicized the act of buying its games at all. A game company coming out as a financial supporter of the NRA, to the extent of calling its customers who favoured gun control "wimps and wusses who c'n keep their goldurn money they don't like it!", would be using Woke tactics as well, if not for typically Woke causes.

One of the hallmarks of Wokeness is the belief that nothing is "apolitical"

I would suggest Venger Satanis' The Good Syma'arian as an example of what Rob Necronomicon is talking about. While it is a free adventure, it is both a political call out and an advertisement for his game Cha'alt. His blog announcement of the adventure went:

This is it... I mean, I've been defending Venger's products online even if I don't agree with him politically per se. But I'll still buy his stuff and say he's got every right to release what he wants. This is why I hate the likes of DT because they are pro-censorship (when it suits them) and pro-certain politics. And I say that as a lefty...

I think there's a big difference between what Venger is doing and what Steve Jackson is doing.

Venger's product is politically charged. In this sense it's much like Thirsty Sword Lesbians. These are just honest products I personally have no interest in.

Jackson, on the other hand, is calling out people, while selling an ostensibly politically-neutral product. These are products I could be interested in, if its consumers weren't being personally attacked by the creator.

As to Stephen's point: spot on. I will continue to avoid work from creators that act this way toward their consumer base, whether I agree with their alleged reasons or not. It's vile and gross.

This right here is a good example of seperating the ART from the ARTIST.   When your company's official statement is a politically charged statement that brands your company and polarizes your customers.   

If you make a product that is politically charged yet you say "My views are not my companies views" there's the drawn line of distinction.

This is how I can buy products that are Bad/Wrong on whatever spectrum is out there and be content with my purchase as the art speaks for itself and not the artists telling me how I should be thinking.

At this point its just easier for me to believe that SJG has been "weekend at bernies-ed" and he's just not in control any more, and its some  younger people running the show with him as a sock puppet.

I got the game books I wanted from SJG back in the day, I don't think anything new will be coming out from them that I will be interested in the future,  if they ever do then I might question actually buying it, but it doesn't even seem likely they'll make something I want in the future, oh well.

Quote from: Zalman on July 11, 2022, 07:30:17 AM
I think there's a big difference between what Venger is doing and what Steve Jackson is doing.

Venger's product is politically charged. In this sense it's much like Thirsty Sword Lesbians. These are just honest products I personally have no interest in.

Jackson, on the other hand, is calling out people, while selling an ostensibly politically-neutral product. These are products I could be interested in, if its consumers weren't being personally attacked by the creator.

As to Stephen's point: spot on. I will continue to avoid work from creators that act this way toward their consumer base, whether I agree with their alleged reasons or not. It's vile and gross.

That's the argument I tried to make in the other thread: It shouldn't be about ideology. People can disagree on all kinds of things, and still play together. What makes a company red shouldn't be where they fall on the political spectrum, but whether they're actively kicking broad categories of people from the table for wrongthink.

Pro-abortion? Fine. pro-life? Fine. "I'm not playing with one of..." sotto voce "... them". Bad.

Jackson's rant definitely seems exclusionary.

Lilith has been "reclaimed" as a feminist symbol. They're not a satanic cult

Quote from: Pat on July 11, 2022, 11:20:55 AM
Jackson's rant definitely seems exclusionary.

Is it really? Sure it's highly political, but does he say "don't buy my games if you believe X" or "I don't want so-and-so as customers"?

The List suffers from unclear standards. It seemed to be heading in the direction of consumer awareness (don't buy games from people who hate you), but now it seems to be interpreted as red = woke, green = good.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 08, 2022, 11:11:22 AM
Here's what I would say if I ran my own game company: "My personal politics are none of your business. I just want your money and recognition of the effort I put into my product."

Stealing this in whole and without any shame for any and all of my entrepenurial efforts.

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 08, 2022, 04:39:39 PM

Quote from: Pat on July 08, 2022, 04:24:44 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 08, 2022, 03:58:03 PM

Quote from: Battlemaster on July 08, 2022, 07:35:03 AM
Damn! I always had evil Stevie pegged as a solid conservative.

He was always Libertarian. And always had a big hate-on for the religious right.

People forget that the raid on SJG was instrumental to the creation of the Electronic Frontier Foundation, being their first big case. SJG took a hard stance against the government intruding on civil rights.

Here's SJG's summary of the infamous Secret Service raid:
https://www.sjgames.com/SS/

Which makes it especially weird that he's taking a stance in favor of unelected big-government federal bureaucrats getting to have control over abortion rules for everyone in the country.

Not really, left wing-"Libertarians" quickly become authoritarians when it's for the right cause, and they get to decide what's the right cause. Take for instance Grim Jim.

As for SJG, the forum's rules prohibit I express what should be done about it.

So I will only say this: VOTE WITH YOUR WALLET, bitching and moaning do jack shit. Stop giving money to people that hate you.

And for those who are still on the "Safe, Legal & Rare" side well you're now Christofascists to them. If you're not on that side but still think that up to birth for no reason is crazy then you too are terribad people and they hate you.

So, stop buying their shit, stop promoting their shit and start buying/promoting shit by people who don't hate you.

Quote from: rytrasmi on July 11, 2022, 01:39:11 PM

Quote from: Pat on July 11, 2022, 11:20:55 AM
Jackson's rant definitely seems exclusionary.

Is it really? Sure it's highly political, but does he say "don't buy my games if you believe X" or "I don't want so-and-so as customers"?

The List suffers from unclear standards. It seemed to be heading in the direction of consumer awareness (don't buy games from people who hate you), but now it seems to be interpreted as red = woke, green = good.

No the LIST is clear as there are far right folks on the list for stating their far-right views on subjects.

The list covers both spectrums of sellers who dislike certain types of people who buy their products.


Also i'm with Venger and why hasn't DTRPG pulled all SJG's products from their site since they are breaking one of their core tennants.