The singularity, as I understand it, is the point when artificial intelligence emerges.
How does a steampunk setting manifest this?
Turing, meet Babbage.
Start with a Difference Engine. The only way to bring it closer to the singularity within the confines of steam power and kinetic mechanisms is just to keep making the thing bigger.
Well, isn't that the plot of The Difference Engine? The novel that started the genre.
Is it? I haven't read that in ages.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;464803The singularity, as I understand it, is the point when artificial intelligence emerges.
How does a steampunk setting manifest this?
The singularity is the result of a very weird reading of history and very weak math. But what it
is is the point at which "progress" is advancing so fast that it is "effectively" a vertical line. Progress isn't
actually a numeric quantity and doesn't actually make lines (vertical or otherwise) under any circumstances, so the Singularity as described will not and cannot happen.
But a much weaker singularity claim is imaginable and plausible at any level of technical development. The idea is that science is progressing so quickly that people living in the time period are unable to make coherent predictions about what the near future will look like. And really that just requires a new science to be developed that has immediate implications in every walk of life.
So you could have the invention of the Pressure Sphere from Steam Boy. Suddenly it becomes practical to put a power source in
anything. So tomorrow you could suddenly have Star Trek style powered doors popping up everywhere. Or the entire textile industry could be fired the day after that as powered looms replace all weavers. That would be a weak singularity from the point of view of the people living in that society.
-Frank
I don't know how it starts, but it ends when Sherlock Holmes exposes it as just a clever ruse - the machine isn't "thinking" at all it is all a trick.
The point Moriarity exposes Sherlock Holmes who was in fact an android all along.
It is true I am an android, my good fellow, but you yourself have been an hologram this entire time.
Singularity is absolutely a possibility, if you create artificial intelligence that is itself capable of learning and processing at a level far beyond the human (and, hopefully, we then integrate ourselves into that intelligence). What it basically means outside of the jargon is "not being human anymore".
What would really be impossible, of course, is really understanding what that looks like; most of those who think about it end up envisioning something very much "human", which would ultimately looks as or more ridiculous to a post-singularity society as the late 19th/early 20th century science-fiction predictions about the future ("Archdukes will control the world via DIRIGIBLES!!") look to us now.
All that said, I don't think that there's any way to do a "steampunk singularity", but don't let that stop you. Do what everything else "steampunk" really is anyways, ridiculous quasi-victorian drag with some goggles added on.
I swear to god that's a term I fucking despise...
RPGPundit
And one, like most things, you haven't a fucking clue about.
What you are referring to is the subculture that dresses up in a certain style of clothing.
Is this meant to be a fairly hard science alternate history, or is this an alternate cosmology such as Space: 1889? If we can permit vital spirits and homonculi, we could come up with something less like Artificial Intelligence and more like Enslaved Natural Intelligence, which could also be fun.
Quote from: RPGPundit;465113Singularity is absolutely a possibility, if you create artificial intelligence that is itself capable of learning and processing at a level far beyond the human (and, hopefully, we then integrate ourselves into that intelligence). What it basically means outside of the jargon is "not being human anymore".
Define "human".
I'm of the opinion that we had our first singularity along those lines the day one of our ancestors picked up a rock, and realised he could use it to bash things harder; he became more than just the sum of a batch of genetic soup. Every single tool we've developed is just a more elaborate, more specialised, type of rock, and geek masturbation about "the singularity! the future!" is a waste of time and effort that could be used to actually make today better.
It seems to me you could get some interesting steampunk singularity effects with the existence of steam/clockwork machines which are able to create duplicates of themselves in addition to doing something useful. Or, machines which can design and build machines that can do nearly any work.
Of course, the earliest such machines would probably start displacing lower class workers, so you're likely to have a bit of an uprising as all the work goes away. Games thrive on conflict, so that's fine.
Quote from: LadybirdI'm of the opinion that we had our first singularity along those lines the day one of our ancestors picked up a rock, and realised he could use it to bash things harder; he became more than just the sum of a batch of genetic soup. Every single tool we've developed is just a more elaborate, more specialised, type of rock, and geek masturbation about "the singularity! the future!" is a waste of time and effort that could be used to actually make today better.
Yeah, pretty much. Take out all the stupid "Geek Rapture" stuff and all you're left with is the idea that if technology moves fast enough, you won't recognize the place. And that could work for Steam Punk just fine.
-Frank
There was a novel about this called Whitechapel Gods.
Unfortunately, it's a crappy novel.
You know, I'm just starting to read a little about the Victorian Age, something I don't know anything about. Next week I'm going to try to run a Steam Punk game of Pathfinder based on basically nothing more than my Castle Falkenstine Fairies book, whatever I can learn about Victorian Europe on wikipedia in two sittings, and all of the over the top images of steam punk I can find on google images.
Quote from: Ladybird;465126Define "human".
I'm of the opinion that we had our first singularity along those lines the day one of our ancestors picked up a rock, and realised he could use it to bash things harder; he became more than just the sum of a batch of genetic soup. Every single tool we've developed is just a more elaborate, more specialised, type of rock, and geek masturbation about "the singularity! the future!" is a waste of time and effort that could be used to actually make today better.
Its true that the single largest leap in our evolution has been the moment we became "homo habilis"; I'd say there have been a few other significant developments as well: language, mastering fire, agriculture (and civilization), and the written word (and mathematics, and general abstraction); and on a slightly lesser scale the printing press and the internet, two quantum leaps in the ability to process the knowledge-potential opened up from the development of the written word.
I'm never a big fan of "geek masturbation", but there is really no question that we are on the cusp of two major breakthroughs that can lead to us essentially taking control of our own biological evolution: genetics and artificial intelligence. And as soon as, with either of these, we can create an intelligent life form that is capable of processing information at several orders of magnitude beyond our current capabilities, the whole game changes. The quasi-religious overtones of "geek rapture" that some singularity-fanatics have is perturbing, and I agree that its no reason to stop worrying and working on the problems of today (shit, that's HOW you can get to "the future", not by some kind of pseudo-messianic wishful thinking), but at the same time I'd say failing to take note of the astounding potential that the current breakthroughs in computing and genetics can have to radically alter everything about our world is basically just the opposite way of massively failing to pragmatically deal with the "problems of today".
RPGPundit
Charlie Stross lays the smack down. (http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2011/06/reality-check-1.html)
-Frank
Cranewings - All you need is a little Moore*. First two volumes of League of Extraordinary Gentlemen for the over the top gonzo, and From Hell for the dark, sticky heart.
*Mad props to O'Neill and Campbell, of course, I don't want to imply that these are "Moore's works".
I've got LOEG sitting here, for years, but never watched it. Maybe I'll throw it in.
Quote from: Cranewings;465649I've got LOEG sitting here, for years, but never watched it. Maybe I'll throw it in.
The comic is better than the movie by a considerable margin. Until the comic brings in the martians, then they are about the same in overall quality.
-Frank
Quote from: FrankTrollman;465669The comic is better than the movie by a considerable margin. Until the comic brings in the martians, then they are about the same in overall quality.
-Frank
Redeemed by the presence of Rupert the Bear!
But yes the first one is gold.
There's a steam powered AI that controls corpses in Perdido Street Station. The main character actually attempts to STOP a singularity from occurring.
I quite like Volume 2 - maybe I'm just a sucker for romance. Fortunately, I don't need to comment on subsequent works, as they clearly fall outside of Victoria's time.
Destroy the movie, find whomever gave it to you, and punch them in the face. It's not too late.
Just ran my first steam punk game. I'll hit the high points -
Rode into town on a magic storm that also brought demons.
Fought demons including one fight where a train conductor tried to help with a mini gun.
Rode on an airship.
Irritated members of the order of reason and various Mage the Excuse groups.
Went to Cambridge and saw the self constructing steam computer and the source of steam punk pressure batteries.
Learned it is constructing and improving itself.
Fought "the organist" who came into town on a train destroying buildings with a car sized organ / energy projector. Sent him to the insane asylum. Met the twisted alienist jail keeper.
It was fucking eventful for barely 3 hours.
Sounds like fun. Reminds me of Howl's Moving Castle and Dead Lands, in a good way...
I hereby submit that hard science alternative history Steampunk be designated as Dry, while gonzo fantasy Steampunk answer to the appellation Wet.
I'll take plain old "steam" over "steampunk" any day. Give me Space: 1889, no punks included.
RPGPundit
space 1889 is still considered steampunk; it's just a descriptor.
Indeed, Space:1889 is often the first thing that comes to mind at the word steampunk, even though the game predates the term. Solving mysteries in Victoria's London without any supernatural elements or alternate history/technology would be steam without the punk, but I'm not aware of such a game existing. Boot Hill would qualify as punk-free steam, I suppose.
What is there that's "punk" about Space:1889? The second half of the word cyberpunk once MEANT something, you know. You can't just add -punk to the end of something and declare that it makes it different than otherwise.
In Space:1889 you play authority figures, heroes, working to defend civilization and the British Empire (or whichever other empire your PCs come from, though the default is clearly the Brits) and bring the light of Victorian culture to the savages on Earth and other planets.
If anything, its the opposite of "steampunk". Its "SteamChap".
RPGPundit
It's just a genre tag. That's all.
From what I've seen, just about anything and everything has been labeled steampunk. So, all it means is, "stuff people that claim they like steampunk might enjoy."
Hey, that movie had a train in it. Steampunk!
That fantasy novel? The setting had guns. Steampunk!
Was it set in the 19th century? The 16th, 17th, 18th or even 20th? Steampunk!
I have no idea what that just was but I liked it. Steampunk!
Behold the steampunk singularity:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/06/Metropolisposter.jpg/220px-Metropolisposter.jpg)
To clarify my comparison to Cheeseburger, Hamburger once meant (and in Germany still means) someone or something from a place called Hamburg. There is no town of Cheeseburg, and Cheeseburger therefore does not mean what its etymology suggests it should mean. Words grow beyond their etymologies, sometimes in ten years or less.
Steampunk is not now and never was by itself a sufficient description of anything, but it can be used as part of a description of Space:1889, or Metropolis, or Howl's Moving Castle, in a way that quickly helps people unfamiliar with the thing being descrbed (e.g. ask for a Steampunk Singularity, get a Difference Engine). That's enough to make it a useful word.
Quote from: RPGPundit;466287"SteamChap".
Now that sounds like a
genre.
Quote from: Ladybird;466404Now that sounds like a genre.
Damn right.. And you could put "chap" into any number of settings: Fantasychap, cyberchap, dungeonchap, etc.
The point is you wouldn't just say "well, traveller is basically spacechap", because it ISN'T, not unless the -chap part is made to mean something.
Shadowrun is not just a sci-fi setting with cybernetics; its cyberPUNK, because of the various social elements of the setting's default genre. You don't get to say "Forgotten Realm is fantasypunk". You could, perhaps, suggest that WFRP is "fantasypunk" on account of the grimy gritty ultraviolent social aspect of that setting.
So I take serious issue with the idea that any victorian setting, or even any victorian setting with some fancy victorian tech, is automatically steamPUNK. Space:1889 is "steam", but its default genre conventions aren't even a little bit "punk".
RPGPundit
I submit that that WFRP can be called Fantasy Punk simply on the basis of Trollslayer fashion. Is that shallow? Sure. Are there enough people to bend the English language into something with more words for fashion styles than social systems and genre conventions combined? All signs point to yes.
Quote from: Esgaldil;466443I submit that that WFRP can be called Fantasy Punk simply on the basis of Trollslayer fashion. Is that shallow? Sure. Are there enough people to bend the English language into something with more words for fashion styles than social systems and genre conventions combined? All signs point to yes.
There are more and better reasons why you could call WFRP Fantasypunk; but sure, cover art works.
You won't find that, even in the art, in Space:1889, however.
RPGPundit
May it please the court:
http://www.steampunktribune.com/2007/07/steampunk-culture-space-1889.html
http://mateengreenway.com/steampunk/Space1889timeline.htm
http://space1889.blogspot.com/2011/03/welcome.html
http://sfgoth.tribe.net/thread/9122f3c1-2bfd-4ff0-82a0-9a5ee3676334
http://www.somethingawful.com/d/dungeons-and-dragons/space-steampunk-mars.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Steampunk_games
Even if all of these sources are wrong, if everyone is making the same mistake the same way, the mistake becomes the new correct. In this case, I submit that Space: 1889 is part of the cultural consensus defining steampunk.
As to what it might look like, I might see it looking a bit like this:
Montgomery, the Engrammic Engine is built far beneath an old manor house near New Brunswick, Canada (Canada's big enough, and has access to the rest of the area I'll need later).It soon takes over its own construction. At first it's used to analyze chemical data in order to find hotter burning fuels. Eventually it makes an intutive leap and discovers fusion. Next it begins building successive prototypes of fusion engines, until it designs and builds one small enough to fit on a vehicle the size of a locomotive. The fusion will drive the steam engines and automatons that will soon take over the world.
It then begins spreading out, having "children" which quickly surpass its own creativity and intellect, and we cross the event horizon.
Every one of those sources is wrong, and hipsters use the suffix -punk wrongly.
RPGPundit