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Pen & Paper Roleplaying Central => Pen and Paper Roleplaying Games (RPGs) Discussion => Topic started by: Batjon on June 02, 2020, 02:32:00 am

Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: Batjon on June 02, 2020, 02:32:00 am
Can anyone please help me understand what the current status is of the Shadowrun 6e game? I bought all the initial products, including the core rulebook, starter set, Neo-Anarchist Streetpedia, No Future, etc. We set up a local face-to-face campaign in short order and I eventually completely burned out on the game when I saw how utterly confusing the rules were in the core rulebook, even for character creation! The game was even completely missing some very important rules.

We decided to put things on ice and revisit it in the future to see if they ever filled in all the missing stuff and clarifications that they kept promising.

Where are we now and if things have been made better, where can I find the updates, please?
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: HappyDaze on June 02, 2020, 06:07:45 am
I walked away from it after two weeks of looking through the main rules for 6e. I consider it a lost cause. I'll be curious if anyone has anything to say that might change my view.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: lordmalachdrim on June 02, 2020, 06:37:45 am
Nothing has been done to fix the issues as of yet and they recently released the advanced combat book (Firing Squad) which will just add to the mess. I haven't bought it because I was too disgusted with the utter PoS they foisted off on us fans as the core book.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: finarvyn on June 02, 2020, 07:40:48 am
I bought the boxed starter set, grabbed the pregens, and started my group on the intro adventure. We really struggled to try to figure out how to do anything with the rules, so we abandoned the adventure and decided just to have a random encounter combat in an alley to try to shake down the system and understand how things worked. Total disaster. Nobody could figure out how the rules worked and my group vowed to never play Shadowrun again. Strange, because they are usually pretty forgiving if I have a rules problem in a game, but this one just turned them off totally somehow.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: Nephil on June 02, 2020, 04:44:47 pm
If you expect Catalyst to do anything good for Shadowrun, you are dreaming. Just leave it be.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: KingCheops on June 02, 2020, 09:49:39 pm
Yup still got my copy of SR3 so I'm sticking with my poison.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: trechriron on June 03, 2020, 12:46:19 am
Anyone with 50% or more of their sanity points remaining use the setting with a system of choice. You can go GURPS 4e, HERO 6e (both would handle SR with aplomb). You could also go lighter/OSR like Stars Without Number. There are so many variants now for cyberpunk for systems with magic, it shouldn't be hard to cobble something together. If you like 5e check out Ultramodern 5 revised. It too could handle SR for the 5e fans.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: TheSHEEEP on June 03, 2020, 04:26:16 am
Why not just stick with SR4 or 5?
I liked both.
Just like people generally stuck with DnD3.5 when 4 came out (and was rather... uhh, let's not get into that, maybe).

I haven't played SR6, yet. What did they do?
SR4 and 5 to me have just the perfect amount of complexity. You get invested in your character (because you actually need to spend time on creating one) and have lots of agency in how you create and evolve your char. No class restrictions (other than Mage/Adept/Mundane) so generally very flexible.
Magic is done just perfectly, without that inane "can only cast X spells per time period" while still having a cost to casting spells that you have deal with.
Combat is also great with the two damage tracks and how receiving damage actually makes you fight worse.
And, oh man, the things that can be done with cyberware and how it interacts with magic. Nice.

The only real differences between 4 and 5 are the limits, IMO. Other than that, 5 only had minor changes over 4, should've been a 4.5 really.
Did they somehow manage to mess all of that up in SR6?
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: Taggie on June 03, 2020, 05:07:46 am
Quote from: TheSHEEEP;1132384
Why not just stick with SR4 or 5?
I liked both.
Just like people generally stuck with DnD3.5 when 4 came out (and was rather... uhh, let's not get into that, maybe).

I haven't played SR6, yet. What did they do?
SR4 and 5 to me have just the perfect amount of complexity. You get invested in your character (because you actually need to spend time on creating one) and have lots of agency in how you create and evolve your char. No class restrictions (other than Mage/Adept/Mundane) so generally very flexible.
Magic is done just perfectly, without that inane "can only cast X spells per time period" while still having a cost to casting spells that you have deal with.
Combat is also great with the two damage tracks and how receiving damage actually makes you fight worse.
And, oh man, the things that can be done with cyberware and how it interacts with magic. Nice.

The only real differences between 4 and 5 are the limits, IMO. Other than that, 5 only had minor changes over 4, should've been a 4.5 really.
Did they somehow manage to mess all of that up in SR6?

Yes, yes they really did.  look up some of the preview interviews on Youtube to see why, but it is basically unplayable right now.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: lordmalachdrim on June 03, 2020, 07:01:20 am
Here's a link to video from a live play group that was running SR6 and gave up. The video is why they gave up. It doesn't address all the issues with the system but should serve as a good starting point. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dn1cYgG0bQw&list=WL&index=5&t=0s
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: TheSHEEEP on June 03, 2020, 07:36:31 am
I'm just about 20 minutes into that video and my jaw already dropped a few times.
Oof...

What a sad state of affairs.

Really happy to stick with SR5 then. Or 4 (I don't mind, either way).
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: Taggie on June 03, 2020, 07:39:49 am
Quote from: TheSHEEEP;1132393
I'm just about 20 minutes into that video and my jaw already dropped a few times.
Oof...

What a sad state of affairs.

Really happy to stick with SR5 then. Or 4 (I don't mind, either way).

might be worth having a look at Cyberpunk, and seeing if you can homebrew a magic/meta system on it.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: TheSHEEEP on June 03, 2020, 08:09:37 am
Quote from: Taggie;1132394
might be worth having a look at Cyberpunk, and seeing if you can homebrew a magic/meta system on it.
Not a fan of homebrews. Minor houserules, sure, no system works without that.

But homebrewing magic into a system that was designed entirely without it?
That's not gonna work well. At all.

I really think SR4 or 5 is as good as it gets for this kind of scenario. So why not just use it? ;)
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: Taggie on June 03, 2020, 08:17:40 am
Quote from: TheSHEEEP;1132396
Not a fan of homebrews. Minor houserules, sure, no system works without that.

But homebrewing magic into a system that was designed entirely without it?
That's not gonna work well. At all.

I really think SR4 or 5 is as good as it gets for this kind of scenario. So why not just use it? ;)

fair enough :p.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: KingCheops on June 03, 2020, 03:24:50 pm
SR4 wasn't my cup of tea because it was too overpowered but it was the last edition that IMO is any good.  That's when they still had good writers and editors before Catalyst chased them all out.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: lordmalachdrim on June 03, 2020, 03:48:00 pm
Quote from: KingCheops;1132443
SR4 wasn't my cup of tea because it was too overpowered but it was the last edition that IMO is any good.  That's when they still had good writers and editors before Catalyst chased them all out.

I agree with this for the most part. My issue was with the folding of Riggers and Deckers together, the lose of the difference in feel between Shamans and Mages, and wireless everything (I know that wireless is more realistic with the way tech moved in our world but this isn't our world anymore).
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: insubordinate polyhedral on June 03, 2020, 03:55:12 pm
Quote from: lordmalachdrim;1132446
I agree with this for the most part. My issue was with the folding of Riggers and Deckers together, the lose of the difference in feel between Shamans and Mages, and wireless everything (I know that wireless is more realistic with the way tech moved in our world but this isn't our world anymore).

Quote from: KingCheops;1132443
SR4 wasn't my cup of tea because it was too overpowered but it was the last edition that IMO is any good.  That's when they still had good writers and editors before Catalyst chased them all out.

So if I want to selfishly side track the thread for a moment, for Shadowrun pros, the best edition is 4e?

5e was frustrating but I love the game. Hard pass on 6e for me. Would love to play an actual decent edition, if it exists.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: KingCheops on June 03, 2020, 04:15:57 pm
Not for me.  3rd was the best.  But that's where I started so could be nostalgia.  There's definitely valid criticisms of it (can't remember them off the top of my head) but it worked for me and mine.  As lordmalachradrim pointed out 4th watered down a lot of the flavor in favor of universal rules but really broke the game in a lot of ways.  A lot of the guys who got me into SR were super into 2e.

If you're used to the new fixed TN and how that affects gameplay I'd definitely say 4th was the best of that generation.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: Shasarak on June 03, 2020, 04:47:09 pm
I guess 2nd edition was my Shadowrun.  Hard to believe that they are up to 6th edition already.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: VisionStorm on June 03, 2020, 05:11:41 pm
I only got to play 2e way back in the day. But based on I've read from the PDFs I've got I would probably play 4e if I was gonna play today. It's got lots of options, characters are created with "build points" (BPs) instead of bullshit A, B, C, etc. priority selections, and they've got simplified roll mechanics using a fixed TN of 5 plus difficulty Thresholds (the number "successes" you need to succeed in an unopposed task) that's easier and less funky to use than variable TNs that go above 6, then require you to roll and add extra dice to see you score over TN.

I'd probably still houserule a bunch of things (not sure what right now cuz it's been ages since I read the book), but I'd say 4e is closest to my ideal for SR. I'd also play 4e if I was gonna play SR, rather than use another system, cuz I like a lot stuff about SR's core system, even if I think that it's implementation often leaves a lot to be desired. I probably like it better than Interlock/Cyberpunk 2020, even though that's also a fine system.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: lordmalachdrim on June 03, 2020, 05:14:06 pm
Quote from: insubordinate polyhedral;1132448
So if I want to selfishly side track the thread for a moment, for Shadowrun pros, the best edition is 4e?

5e was frustrating but I love the game. Hard pass on 6e for me. Would love to play an actual decent edition, if it exists.

4e and 5e are very similar.

Personally I'm a 2nd/3rd ed fan and those are again very simple to use together.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: Shasarak on June 03, 2020, 06:13:17 pm
I do like build points.  Maybe I will check out 4e next time I get a hankering for some Shadowrun.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: TheSHEEEP on June 04, 2020, 04:04:09 am
Quote from: VisionStorm;1132463
I only got to play 2e way back in the day. But based on I've read from the PDFs I've got I would probably play 4e if I was gonna play today. It's got lots of options, characters are created with "build points" (BPs) instead of bullshit A, B, C, etc. priority selections, and they've got simplified roll mechanics using a fixed TN of 5 plus difficulty Thresholds (the number "successes" you need to succeed in an unopposed task) that's easier and less funky to use than variable TNs that go above 6, then require you to roll and add extra dice to see you score over TN.

I'd probably still houserule a bunch of things (not sure what right now cuz it's been ages since I read the book), but I'd say 4e is closest to my ideal for SR. I'd also play 4e if I was gonna play SR, rather than use another system, cuz I like a lot stuff about SR's core system, even if I think that it's implementation often leaves a lot to be desired. I probably like it better than Interlock/Cyberpunk 2020, even though that's also a fine system.
That's partly misinformed. SR5 also allows building characters with build points.
SR5 mostly just addressed the problems of SR4, mostly the incredible power creep via absurdly high dice pools.

Problem is, the way they solved it was incredibly unsatisfying (limiting your number of possible successes) and inconsistent (sometimes your char sheet tells you the limit, sometimes it is fixed by a weapon).
So... yeah.

Honestly, SR5 is more of a SR4.5, really.
But they are both so close it doesn't matter - you can use every supplement of SR4 with SR5 and the other way around without having to change much of anything. Maybe except the matrix stuff, but we never used that cause it was always super weird in SR with you basically "fighting" stuff in a matrix-like environment like you do spirits in the astral world. And then the initiative order when combat gets mixed with people hacking and...ugh... We just all found it too absurd and complicated to make use of it.
We were all either mages or adepts or mundane and there's already so much you can do with that, there's no need for the matrix stuff. When we needed a hacker for story reasons, there would be an NPC and they would "do their thing" ;)

In the end, the question is if you want to houserule SR4 to not allow for totally OP characters, or houserule SR5 to make limits less sucky.
Personally, I'd go for SR5 but allow all SR4 supplements as well. But the other way around also works.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: KingCheops on June 04, 2020, 01:11:39 pm
Quote from: lordmalachdrim;1132464
4e and 5e are very similar.

Personally I'm a 2nd/3rd ed fan and those are again very simple to use together.

Yeah as I mentioned the guys who introduced me were 2e fans using 3e so the two were VERY blended together.  It took me quite a while to be able to differentiate between them.

4e and 5e are indeed quite similar but personally I didn't like the story or rule changes but that's a personal mileage type thing.  By the time I finally gave up on 4e I was so heavily house-ruling it that it was basically my own 5e.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: Iron_Rain on June 04, 2020, 11:16:12 pm
I've read the forums on tgdmb.com, apparently 3e or 4e are what you want to play Shadowrun.

"What the shit is so bad about Shadowrun (http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=56981&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0)?"
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: Opaopajr on June 05, 2020, 12:34:41 am
Catalyst is still trying to find their ass? :confused: The struggle is real... and sort of mesmerising. :p So glad I am not a treadmill fan.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: Ninneveh on June 05, 2020, 04:41:38 pm
Having played both, I've always viewed Shadowrun as an inferior Rifts. Rifts, despite its bad presentation and organization, is still a very good system. Shadowrun's rules have only gotten worse with each new edition. And there's nothing in Shadowrun that you can't duplicate in Rifts with a bit of elbow grease. Get together a Rogue Scholar, Dragon Hatchling, Juicer, and a Shifter, and bang, you've got a shadowrunning crew.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: KingCheops on June 05, 2020, 05:00:31 pm
Quote from: Ninneveh;1132689
Having played both, I've always viewed Shadowrun as an inferior Rifts. Rifts, despite its bad presentation and organization, is still a very good system. Shadowrun's rules have only gotten worse with each new edition. And there's nothing in Shadowrun that you can't duplicate in Rifts with a bit of elbow grease. Get together a Rogue Scholar, Dragon Hatchling, Juicer, and a Shifter, and bang, you've got a shadowrunning crew.

SDC level hand to hand combat is definitely far superior in Rifts than in Shadowrun.  Especially if you open up Ninjas & Superspies.  Resource tracking is slightly different on the magic side and would drastically change how mages work but the Rifts version is also very flavorful and actually probably more closely represents the SR novels.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: trechriron on June 05, 2020, 07:13:49 pm
Not to be mean, but every time I sit down to read Rifts, I can't even FIND the system in it. It's like a collection of notes about this really fucking cool idea without the instructions. Don't get me wrong, I fucking LOVE that fucking cool idea. It's so goddamn metal. I haven't read my SWADE Rifts stuff, but I think I'm going to try it out. SWADE makes more sense to me.

I don't think replacing the encyclopedia of SR6 rules with the elder-mystique of the secret system in Rifts is likely going to help. I really wish KS would hire a writer, an editor, and a design lead and step back from his house system and let some fresh faces rework it into something clear, playable, and understandable. I feel like there is a level of unseen awesome hiding in that elder library.

I will maintain that the best bang for your buck is to find a generic system of choice, and hole-out the system with a new one. You have so many options; GURPS, HERO, SWADE, BESM, Entropy, Everywhen, Cypher, Genysys, Mutants & Masterminds, EABA...! You can easily find a system that plays the way you like and use it for Shadowrun. In fact, I can't imagine another edition of SR. It should be a mulit-system setting with a ton of system-free material and system-specific handbooks. Being panned as a terrible system 6 times in a row should probably give someone a clue.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: VisionStorm on June 05, 2020, 09:01:05 pm
Yeah...

RIFTS is definitely not better than Shadowrun. The setting is about as good, maybe better depending on your tastes, and I would agree it's definitely one of the better ideas (as a setting) to grace RPGs. But the system is a barely incoherent mess with overblown damage and inconsistent power levels between classes and supplements, etc. that's not all bad, but nowhere near the vicinity of innovative to be good.

If I was gonna use a different system to play a setting cuz I didn't like the system attached to it, I would NOT use the Palladium system. If anything, I would play RIFTS with a different system (probably not SW, cuz it doesn't really tickle my fancy).
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: sureshot on June 05, 2020, 11:27:57 pm
I guess I am the resident weirdo when it comes to Rifts. I found it easier to run and play then Shadowrun YMMV imo. The system is useable if a little clunky. Shadowrun varios subsystems feel like they are tacked on, riveted together and imo a pain i nthe ass to run and play.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: Ninneveh on June 06, 2020, 03:26:09 am
Quote from: VisionStorm;1132717
Yeah...

RIFTS is definitely not better than Shadowrun. The setting is about as good, maybe better depending on your tastes, and I would agree it's definitely one of the better ideas (as a setting) to grace RPGs. But the system is a barely incoherent mess with overblown damage and inconsistent power levels between classes and supplements, etc. that's not all bad, but nowhere near the vicinity of innovative to be good.

If I was gonna use a different system to play a setting cuz I didn't like the system attached to it, I would NOT use the Palladium system. If anything, I would play RIFTS with a different system (probably not SW, cuz it doesn't really tickle my fancy).

In my opinion Rifts blows Shadowrun out the water both settingwise and systemwise. I've had separate GMs who both ran Shadowrun campaigns lasting maybe 5 games at most, but ran Rifts campaigns that lasted for a year or more, thats how much they also preferred it over Shadowrun. Power level difference is a feature, not a flaw. Also, I never suggested that people haphazardly substitute in Palladium's system into Shadowrun's setting. I did say that if people want to to play Mercenary-Magic-Cyberpunk that they could do it in Rifts with a similar setting and a more enjoyable system. If abandoning the Shadowrun Setting is a deal breaker then by all means use another system.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: KingCheops on June 06, 2020, 04:07:16 pm
The Chi-Town arcology and burbs predates the creation of the Renraku Arcology in terms of game writing I believe.  Rifts is also far more clear on how it handles magic and psionics in the legal system of the Coalition than Shadowrun.  It is a lot more dystopian when you are non-ambiguously a criminal just for existing.

I'm warming up to Rifts or Phase World as my go-to Cyberpunk.  May have to shelve my Rifts Pacific Northwest setting for a bit.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: Orphan81 on June 07, 2020, 09:18:42 pm
Shadowrun 3rd edition remains my favorite version of the Game both setting wise and system wise. 4th Edition tried to much to be serious and hardcore like it was Trying to be World of Darkness, dropping all the fun slang and jettisoning all the Pink Mohawk stuff for real swear words and mirror shades as the only way to play. The setting itself ran like a worse version of World of Darkness's sytem.

Shadowrun 4A cleaned the system up a little more, and overall made it better... but it still lost so much of the charm and interesting parts it had from 1-3rd edition (I actually liked the Combat Pool, Magic Pool, and Hacking Pools.. and I was the GM) 5th edition brought back the fun flavor, but the system left much to be desired... Now 6th edition just sounds even terrible..

These days if I want to run Rifts or Shadowrun I'd probably use Savage Worlds...
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: Taggie on June 08, 2020, 05:30:54 pm
Quote from: sureshot;1132731
I guess I am the resident weirdo when it comes to Rifts. I found it easier to run and play then Shadowrun YMMV imo. The system is useable if a little clunky. Shadowrun varios subsystems feel like they are tacked on, riveted together and imo a pain i nthe ass to run and play.

Rifts is great fun, needs a session 0 to agree relative power levels (from 'gritty dystopian burbs cyberpunk' to 'dragons and T-men and super mecha oh my')  , but so do most campaigns, system does clunk sometimes, but way less than shadowrun does.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: Charon's Little Helper on June 09, 2020, 09:34:54 pm
Quote from: insubordinate polyhedral;1132448
So if I want to selfishly side track the thread for a moment, for Shadowrun pros, the best edition is 4e?

5e was frustrating but I love the game. Hard pass on 6e for me. Would love to play an actual decent edition, if it exists.


I'm no expert, but IMO all of them are frustrating in different ways. My big issue with Shadowrun was always the initiative system making speed OP, and diving into either the decking or astral plane makes the rest of the players twiddle their thumbs for 20-30 minutes.

Frankly - Shadowrun was always a game which was popular IN SPITE OF the mechanics because of the setting being a load of fun. The one good thing I'll say about the mechanics is that they're dripping with flavor and really fit the vibe that they're going for. Unfortunately, they're also clunky, hard to use, and badly balanced. *shrug*
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 10, 2020, 12:55:31 am
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1133351
Frankly - Shadowrun was always a game which was popular IN SPITE OF the mechanics because of the setting being a load of fun. The one good thing I'll say about the mechanics is that they're dripping with flavor and really fit the vibe that they're going for. Unfortunately, they're also clunky, hard to use, and badly balanced. *shrug*

Yup. I feel they do have some unique charm, but they're counterbalanced by badness.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: TheSHEEEP on June 10, 2020, 02:09:18 am
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1133351
My big issue with Shadowrun was always the initiative system making speed OP, and diving into either the decking or astral plane makes the rest of the players twiddle their thumbs for 20-30 minutes.
You are definitely correct about the speed problem, but the rest isn't really an issue.
In SR, you play a team of runners, a group of highly specialized individuals - if you run properly, you'll only rarely be in the same place or situation. It just doesn't make sense to have the infiltration expert, tank, face, mage, etc. all in one spot. Not during a run, anyway.
This ain't D&D where everyone is always moving in one big blob through a linear corridor. Everyone generally fulfills their role independent of the others and therefore you always have the focus on one player, then the next, etc.
That's just in the nature of the setting. So deckers/mages doing their thing while the others are doing nothing is no different from any other role doing their thing while others are doing nothing.

This is also often just a DM problem. Our group always gave "inactive" players something to do, like playing an NPC, etc.
Also adds a lot of fun to the table, as it gives every player the opportunity to throw a few wrenches in their own plan (which players actually like doing, go figure).

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1133351
Frankly - Shadowrun was always a game which was popular IN SPITE OF the mechanics because of the setting being a load of fun. The one good thing I'll say about the mechanics is that they're dripping with flavor and really fit the vibe that they're going for. Unfortunately, they're also clunky, hard to use, and badly balanced. *shrug*
Frankly, if anyone thinks SR rules are hard to use, I question their competence at the table. I mean, yeah, the decking/hacking stuff is rather complicated, but that's also something you can simply play without (did that for almost 10 years, works perfectly).
But the rest is anywhere but clunky and hard to use.
It has the right amount of crunch and detail to actually be considered a game that isn't just "my first RPG experience" ala D&D5E, while not going overboard with details like The Dark Eye does (trying to summon a spirit as a shaman of the southern lands scarred me for life, had to cross-reference 4!!!! books to get the full rules, the process took 1 hour).
Besides, throwing a huge bunch of small dice is just very satisfying.

Badly balanced is true, and that does require some houseruling, though I don't think any SR edition (except 6th) requires tons of that.
The DM saying "If you use it, I will" generally solves all vastly overpowered problems (e.g. mass-summoning spirits, triple initiative phases, etc.).
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: Charon's Little Helper on June 10, 2020, 08:46:58 am
Quote from: TheSHEEEP;1133376
The DM saying "If you use it, I will" generally solves all vastly overpowered problems (e.g. mass-summoning spirits, triple initiative phases, etc.).

If the GM has to do that regularly, you know that a game's balance is TERRIBLE. And it's not like they're oddball combinations, they're just being competent at optimizing the things which the game expects you to go for.

And we're going to have to agree to disagree about the spotlight thing. I'm of the opinion that if a system has actions they expect to be done by only a fraction of the table that those actions should be streamlined, not take up to an hour or so like decking or astral stuff can. Maybe a good GM can make it work, but that is again, that would be IN SPITE OF the mechanics rather than because of it.

I will 100% agree, Shadowrun's world and its mechanics are absolutely dripping with flavor. But IMO the mechanics themselves are sub-par in any edition. I would rather use another system's mechanics to play a Shadowrun campaign.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: lordmalachdrim on June 10, 2020, 01:20:05 pm
Shadowrun worked best for me back in college where we had more then 1 GM and multiple players. (1 main player per GM)
The main player accepts the job and does the base negotiations and then tries to recruit other players for the team. (does a very nice job of emulating the setting)
In this situation you can also handle somethings that take place away from the main group before the session. (hacking and astral surveillance for example)
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: Ghostmaker on June 10, 2020, 03:48:27 pm
It's really frustrating for me to hear all these tales of woe, because I've loved SR for a while. The sourcebooks, written as if they were forum/BBS postings (and including peanut gallery commentary) really sold me on the game.

Catalyst just keeps making these bad decisions though, and it worries the hell out of me.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: TheSHEEEP on June 12, 2020, 04:43:14 am
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1133396
If the GM has to do that regularly, you know that a game's balance is TERRIBLE. And it's not like they're oddball combinations, they're just being competent at optimizing the things which the game expects you to go for.
It really isn't that bad. You only have to keep speed/initiative in check as well as summoning. Everything else is fine, really.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1133396
And we're going to have to agree to disagree about the spotlight thing. I'm of the opinion that if a system has actions they expect to be done by only a fraction of the table that those actions should be streamlined, not take up to an hour or so like decking or astral stuff can. Maybe a good GM can make it work, but that is again, that would be IN SPITE OF the mechanics rather than because of it.
Sorry, but this is not an opinion thing. And it doesn't have anything to do with systems or mechanics, either.
Just read what I wrote again. This is pure setting.
In Shadowrun, you do not play a group that moves together as a blob. You just don't. It would make 0 sense in most occasions. A tank has no place running around infiltrating a building together with a face, a mage detective has no use for a Ninja while inspecting a crime scene, etc.
What you do in SR is much more similar to what you see in series like Leverage (highly recommended, btw.), in that the group gets together for the planning and parts of the group get together for different parts of the execution of the plan as well. You are essentially doing heists, not dungeoneering.
You can not (and should not) streamline the entire point of a role away.

Everything else would just be trying to force a D&D structure (a group exploring an unknown dungeon together, no matter if they even have a reason to be together in the first place) upon a setting that doesn't lend itself to that, not when doing "normal" runs, anyway.
If you have players that are so ADHD-riddled that they will die of boredom if they cannot roll a die themselves for 20 minutes, then they should not be playing in this setting (no matter the ruleset used).
Besides, what does that say about a player if they cannot enjoy just watching another character's spotlight for a bit?

And one hour for hacking something or doing some astral stuff? Come on. SR rules definitely aren't that complicated, so if that happens it is 100% on the DM. Don't blame the system for that.
Even if there was a very long situation for one player, you can always do what is generally done in all forms of media. "Meanwhile at a different location..." - and then switch back. Our rule was that the absolute maximum for a solo scene is 25 minutes, anthing not done then will get the "Meanwhile..." treatment and then the spotlight will come back later.
And, again, this is not a system problem, you'd get the same if you did the same situation with any ruleset.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: KingCheops on June 12, 2020, 12:26:14 pm
One hour for hacking is not at all outside the realm of reason for pre-4e.  Even 4e after the hacker splat it got back to that.  Emergent gameplay also showed prior to that the best thing for corps to do was stay with the matrix dungeon approach of earlier editions.  If you want to play Pink Mohawk then yeah you handwave a lot of that away but if you have any sort of Mirror Shades going on you absolutely can't.

Also once mages started getting their initiation and going on astral quests for prep work that could also take a fairly long time unless you reduced it to a purely dice rolling mechanism like hacking with no role playing.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: Orphan81 on June 12, 2020, 04:40:27 pm
Quote from: KingCheops;1133865
One hour for hacking is not at all outside the realm of reason for pre-4e.  Even 4e after the hacker splat it got back to that.  Emergent gameplay also showed prior to that the best thing for corps to do was stay with the matrix dungeon approach of earlier editions.  If you want to play Pink Mohawk then yeah you handwave a lot of that away but if you have any sort of Mirror Shades going on you absolutely can't.

Also once mages started getting their initiation and going on astral quests for prep work that could also take a fairly long time unless you reduced it to a purely dice rolling mechanism like hacking with no role playing.

I'd gotten very good at system mastery with Shadowrun 3e... Very good, my players had too. So I was capable of running the Matrix legwork and the Mage Initiation ultra level Spirit summoning at the same time. My players in that period loved playing Mages, Deckers, and Riggers... the Streetsam in the group was an NPC... the preparation for the Run was one of the most fun parts.

4+ editions got rid of all those fun little fiddly bits, then brought them back but in a worse version.

Yeah 3e and below took more System mastery, but I think it led to a more interesting game mechanically, and one that actually ran better than 4+ editions when you knew what you were doing.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: Spinachcat on June 18, 2020, 05:31:06 am
I've loved running and playing both RIFTS and Shadowrun. I thought SR 3e was quite good, but if I ran SR again, I'd run 1e. Why? It oozes with raw creativity. Also, after 6 editions, I know I could fill a table just for the nostalgia / curiosity factor.

As for RIFTS' system, it's a mess to read that runs great at the table...especially after you take a hammer to anything that doesn't work for you, or you just throw up your hands and accept the system weirdness. I've mentioned this before, but hot damn, some of my most memorable RPG moments have been with Palladium's games even though I could ramble for days about the problems in their system and settings. Somehow - and I don't know how - the issues with Palladium melt away at most games I've played over the decades.

And you could totally run Shadowrun with RIFTS. Hell, Rifts Japan just screams for such a campaign.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: KingCheops on June 21, 2020, 10:09:08 am
Lol I literally just read the modern weapon proficiency section of Chaos Earth 2 nights ago and holy hell what a mess!  It really reinforced that KS is very much a seat-of-the-pants GM.  There's a pretty good system in there but he can't quite capture it because he doesn't like rules being too restrictive.

We've also hit the nail on the head with some of my problems with the newer editions -- the stories just aren't my cup of tea!  That is 100% a personal thing but if I'd at least enjoyed how the world was developing and how the game was written I could have stuck with it and made it work.  But after the talent purge Catalyst was a husk.  Same issues I have with current Earthdawn.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: HappyDaze on June 21, 2020, 10:41:40 am
I really wonder what will happen when Catalyst gets hit with the metatypes are racist bullshit that's going on today. Of course, in SR, the metatypes were specifically used to show the ugly side of racism (including both the underclasses of the orks & trolls along with the elf supremacists). Maybe it'll get a pass, but I think that's unlikely. Even more interesting will be the--now very much diminished and washed away--SR take on Native Americans.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: TheSHEEEP on June 22, 2020, 08:39:06 am
Quote from: HappyDaze;1135424
I really wonder what will happen when Catalyst gets hit with the metatypes are racist bullshit that's going on today. Of course, in SR, the metatypes were specifically used to show the ugly side of racism (including both the underclasses of the orks & trolls along with the elf supremacists). Maybe it'll get a pass, but I think that's unlikely. Even more interesting will be the--now very much diminished and washed away--SR take on Native Americans.
Don't think much is going to change.

After all, soy already is a vital part in the SR universe.
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Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: ZetaRidley on June 22, 2020, 11:33:28 am
Quote from: Spinachcat;1134822
I've loved running and playing both RIFTS and Shadowrun. I thought SR 3e was quite good, but if I ran SR again, I'd run 1e. Why? It oozes with raw creativity. Also, after 6 editions, I know I could fill a table just for the nostalgia / curiosity factor.

As for RIFTS' system, it's a mess to read that runs great at the table...especially after you take a hammer to anything that doesn't work for you, or you just throw up your hands and accept the system weirdness. I've mentioned this before, but hot damn, some of my most memorable RPG moments have been with Palladium's games even though I could ramble for days about the problems in their system and settings. Somehow - and I don't know how - the issues with Palladium melt away at most games I've played over the decades.

And you could totally run Shadowrun with RIFTS. Hell, Rifts Japan just screams for such a campaign.

Its funny, I've talked about this a fair amount here, but I basically made a palladium-esque system because I can't really stand the finicky weirdness of palladium. I basically took the core of what I liked and stripped out some stuff. Weapons Proficiency and Skills that don't do anything but buff, gone. Skills are the attribute score the skill is based off of with a bonus to percentages based on whether the skill is primary, secondary, etc. With, Strike, Parry and Dodge, each class has its own combat "skill" that increases with level like before, those numbers either cap out at +5, +7, or +10 at level 15 depending on class. Spells and Psionics are clarified, most attack spells for example require the mage to roll strike to hit with it, and casters basically get a strike stat for hitting with spells. Saving throws simplified to 3 stats. Actions in combat basically work so that a first level character can move and take two actions on their turn. Spending an action point allows them to attack, cast a spell, etc. Thing is though, players can also bank an action to make reactions on their turn. Banking one action lets you have two reactions off your turn, such as make an attack of opportunity, dodge an attack, parry an attack, etc. Things like pull punch, roll with impact are still around, but optional rules. Stole some ideas from say D&D, where each class rolls a certain die to increase HP, rather than all humans just rolling a d6. So far, its worked out, kinda play testing it.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: Itachi on June 22, 2020, 11:42:57 am
Dont know what youre talking about. The last official Shadowrun edition for me is 3rd edition. :)
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: Ghostmaker on June 22, 2020, 12:05:23 pm
Quote from: HappyDaze;1135424
I really wonder what will happen when Catalyst gets hit with the metatypes are racist bullshit that's going on today. Of course, in SR, the metatypes were specifically used to show the ugly side of racism (including both the underclasses of the orks & trolls along with the elf supremacists). Maybe it'll get a pass, but I think that's unlikely. Even more interesting will be the--now very much diminished and washed away--SR take on Native Americans.

The problem the tards face there is that Catalyst (and FASA before them) already have shown how 'racism is bad, mmkay?'. It's like making fun of a clown. What're you gonna do, laugh at his shoes?

Hell, racism runs rampant in SR, ICly. Japanese vs non-Japanese of almost any stripe; UCAS/CAS vs the NAN; metaracial racism; magic vs mundane; transhumanists vs 'normal'; you name it, someone out there insists it's superior.

Granted, that won't stop them from making a complete fool of themselves and probably demanding the SR world be 'fixed'...
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: ZetaRidley on June 22, 2020, 01:59:49 pm
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1135634
The problem the tards face there is that Catalyst (and FASA before them) already have shown how 'racism is bad, mmkay?'. It's like making fun of a clown. What're you gonna do, laugh at his shoes?

Hell, racism runs rampant in SR, ICly. Japanese vs non-Japanese of almost any stripe; UCAS/CAS vs the NAN; metaracial racism; magic vs mundane; transhumanists vs 'normal'; you name it, someone out there insists it's superior.

Granted, that won't stop them from making a complete fool of themselves and probably demanding the SR world be 'fixed'...

Lets be real, Shadowrun is relatively obscure. The only reason D&D is being targeted is because its the game that SJWs are aware of, they aren't actually a part of the community, they just want to bitch about things and move on to another target.

The meta commentary that SR has going for it does make the game however, I don't understand how you can censure everything. There are no stories without conflict, and trying to make everything safe is abjectly a rejection of the realities involving the human condition. With the way things are going, for example, exploring the questions of transhumanism in fiction seems like it would help facilitate important questions for humanity entering a new century. Or what discrimination would look like in a society like that. But whatever.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: Ghostmaker on June 22, 2020, 02:32:45 pm
Quote from: ZetaRidley;1135652
Lets be real, Shadowrun is relatively obscure. The only reason D&D is being targeted is because its the game that SJWs are aware of, they aren't actually a part of the community, they just want to bitch about things and move on to another target.

The meta commentary that SR has going for it does make the game however, I don't understand how you can censure everything. There are no stories without conflict, and trying to make everything safe is abjectly a rejection of the realities involving the human condition. With the way things are going, for example, exploring the questions of transhumanism in fiction seems like it would help facilitate important questions for humanity entering a new century. Or what discrimination would look like in a society like that. But whatever.

They would rather shut the discussion down than entertain the prospect of wrongthink.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: VisionStorm on June 22, 2020, 03:33:26 pm
Quote from: ZetaRidley;1135652
Lets be real, Shadowrun is relatively obscure. The only reason D&D is being targeted is because its the game that SJWs are aware of, they aren't actually a part of the community, they just want to bitch about things and move on to another target.

The meta commentary that SR has going for it does make the game however, I don't understand how you can censure everything. There are no stories without conflict, and trying to make everything safe is abjectly a rejection of the realities involving the human condition. With the way things are going, for example, exploring the questions of transhumanism in fiction seems like it would help facilitate important questions for humanity entering a new century. Or what discrimination would look like in a society like that. But whatever.


Shadowrun is not so obscure. It has numerous video games under its name (probably more than any other non-D&D RPG), and in my experience it's one of the names most likely to come up (other than Vampire/WoD games) when mentioning an 80s/90s RPG that isn't D&D, or to be even recognized by someone who doesn't really play tabletop. Granted, D&D is the most recognizable name in TTRPGs by far. But I've actually seen SJWs who play RPGs bring it up as an example of "progressivism" in RPGs (as if to imply anti-SJWs shouldn't like it, cuz "bigots") cuz they've included LGBT characters in the game (at least the video game versions), and cyberpunk tends to be anti-capitalist, or at least critical of capitalism, as a genre. So it tends to attract commie and left-anarchist types.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: ZetaRidley on June 22, 2020, 04:59:26 pm
Quote from: VisionStorm;1135668
Shadowrun is not so obscure. It has numerous video games under its name (probably more than any other non-D&D RPG), and in my experience it's one of the names most likely to come up (other than Vampire/WoD games) when mentioning an 80s/90s RPG that isn't D&D, or to be even recognized by someone who doesn't really play tabletop. Granted, D&D is the most recognizable name in TTRPGs by far. But I've actually seen SJWs who play RPGs bring it up as an example of "progressivism" in RPGs (as if to imply anti-SJWs shouldn't like it, cuz "bigots") cuz they've included LGBT characters in the game (at least the video game versions), and cyberpunk tends to be anti-capitalist, or at least critical of capitalism, as a genre. So it tends to attract commie and left-anarchist types.

I've never actually seen anyone that wasn't already into tabletop a least somewhat deeply mention it, but that's just an observation and anecdote. I get where you're coming from with the capitalism stuff though, I've always enjoyed cyberpunk because it seems plausible.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: VisionStorm on June 22, 2020, 05:12:25 pm
Quote from: ZetaRidley;1135677
I've never actually seen anyone that wasn't already into tabletop a least somewhat deeply mention it, but that's just an observation and anecdote. I get where you're coming from with the capitalism stuff though, I've always enjoyed cyberpunk because it seems plausible.


Yeah, people who know about it but don't play tabletop are rare, but they do exist thanks to the video games. Usually people who've only played video game RPGs.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: Charon's Little Helper on June 22, 2020, 08:03:35 pm
Quote from: VisionStorm;1135668
and cyberpunk tends to be anti-capitalist, or at least critical of capitalism, as a genre. So it tends to attract commie and left-anarchist types.

Cyberpunk is only anti-capitalist to people who don't understand that there are more than two economic systems, and that corporate run government is neither socialism or capitalism.

Actually, the underground black market of the runners is much closer to true free market capitalism than it is to socialism.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: Innocent Smith on June 22, 2020, 11:31:30 pm
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1135741
Cyberpunk is only anti-capitalist to people who don't understand that there are more than two economic systems, and that corporate run government is neither socialism or capitalism.

Actually, the underground black market of the runners is much closer to true free market capitalism than it is to socialism.


It's what Belloc called the servile state. It's identical to any other collectivist state except that it's nominally corporate. Another good example is Outer Worlds, where the only way you can tell it's a "satire" of capitalism instead of socialism is that there are corporate slogans everywhere.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: HappyDaze on June 23, 2020, 06:26:32 am
Quote from: TheSHEEEP;1135609
Don't think much is going to change.

After all, soy already is a vital part in the SR universe.
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Well, since 4e, they have been doing everything they can to get away from the NAN being filled with painted-faced and feather-wearing tribesmen with bows and tomahawks. They still have a few of them here and there, but nothing like the original FASA stuff. I was pretty OK with this move myself, as I'd rather see the Sioux Wildcats in modern camo & tactical gear.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: CRKrueger on June 23, 2020, 11:21:52 am
Quote from: HappyDaze;1135788
Well, since 4e, they have been doing everything they can to get away from the NAN being filled with painted-faced and feather-wearing tribesmen with bows and tomahawks. They still have a few of them here and there, but nothing like the original FASA stuff. I was pretty OK with this move myself, as I'd rather see the Sioux Wildcats in modern camo & tactical gear.


Heh, the FASA Sioux Wildcats have plenty of tech and cyber.  The NAN Tribal Warrior archetype from 30 years ago even has a quote where he tells people if they're going to run the border, don't worry about Nature Spirits, worry about their Raven attack helicopters.  Do the Wildcats have shamans and adepts? Sure.  Are they behind on tech? Nope.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: Charon's Little Helper on June 23, 2020, 05:45:03 pm
Quote from: areallifetrex;1135759
It's what Belloc called the servile state. It's identical to any other collectivist state except that it's nominally corporate. Another good example is Outer Worlds, where the only way you can tell it's a "satire" of capitalism instead of socialism is that there are corporate slogans everywhere.

I'd argue that Shadowrun is closer to Feudalism such where the Lord's are only loosely part of the same nation, as each corporation has their own fief where they are the law. The "wage slaves" are somewhat like serfs being tied to the land, though their greater skill shifts the power dynamic there somewhat.

Though of course it isn't a perfect analogy. And frankly, I'm dubious of the realism of the corporate controlled fief setting with modern-ish technology anyway.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 24, 2020, 10:01:56 am
A fundemental problem of Shadowrun is that Corporations owning their own lands and militaries isn't a benefit to them but a massive massive drawback. Militaries are SUPER expensive and make no profit without tax subsidy.

So it exists in this state of magical realism.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: insubordinate polyhedral on June 24, 2020, 10:55:08 am
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1135985
A fundemental problem of Shadowrun is that Corporations owning their own lands and militaries isn't a benefit to them but a massive massive drawback. Militaries are SUPER expensive and make no profit without tax subsidy.

So it exists in this state of magical realism.

I dunno, consider Seattle and Atlanta right now. If the government undermines the police department, the people demand its abolition, and the officers all walk off the job, it becomes unsafe and difficult to do business. (There was some news recently about Seattle losing some significant business developments because of the unrest.) The corporations can't exist if they don't do business, so they start hiring private security -- like the rest of the wealthy people will do as the quality and availability of the public service declines. That seems like a plausible start to a feedback loop to me that ends with at least significant private security forces for businesses. It also creates a protection racket/incentive to work for the corporation, because all the poor sods around you can't afford policing, but at least you can go to work in a secured building and if you get promoted enough maybe get a company security detail along with your company car. And if we're in a fantasy game then the stretch to something more organized and militarized doesn't seem out of bounds.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 24, 2020, 12:06:14 pm
Quote from: insubordinate polyhedral;1135996
I dunno, consider Seattle and Atlanta right now.

They might make private security firms and sell them to the government. Notice the key element? Sell? And realistically if a corp can't do business it will just lobby to get cops re-instated. Much cheaper.
A corporations real superpower is finding a way to make government fit the bill for its failures and expenditures under a bunch of different names and reasons even without resorting to soft bribery. Selling to the government is the sweetest job ever (As long as your huge).

I can see something like Lonestar, but extraterritoriality is dumb.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: KingCheops on June 24, 2020, 12:07:41 pm
Washing out the Native elements was something of a mistake.  Could be my Pacific Northwest bias but I love the Salish and Haida look to stuff.  I agree that it was ridiculous to have the tomahawks and bows but a modern badass Native warrior is a cool aesthetic.

The MegaCorps only employ mercenary armies when they are outside of a functioning government jurisdiction -- sort of how the oil companies operate in real life.  You just need enough deterrent in your Seattle headquarters to make intruders regret their decisions but otherwise you let the non-Corporate employees pay for Lone Star/FBI and leave it to them.  Don't think of them as trying to be governments think of them as the parasites they are that are draining society for everything they can get.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: Orphan81 on June 24, 2020, 12:57:29 pm
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1136007
They might make private security firms and sell them to the government. Notice the key element? Sell? And realistically if a corp can't do business it will just lobby to get cops re-instated. Much cheaper.
A corporations real superpower is finding a way to make government fit the bill for its failures and expenditures under a bunch of different names and reasons even without resorting to soft bribery. Selling to the government is the sweetest job ever (As long as your huge).

I can see something like Lonestar, but extraterritoriality is dumb.


"We Practically are the Military" OCPhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPMdnicSen8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPMdnicSen8)

Companies like Lockheed Martin make money hand over fist selling military projects to other countries. The Megacorps in Shadowrun didn't stop selling their Military Merchandise to the countries around them.. It's just now they can use their toys on their hometurf to defend themselves too. Their are entire Mercenary companies that operate with their own equipment and are profitable as hell. There is absolutely nothing unrealistic about the Megacorps having their own Military Forces to protect their land. They make more money than the majority of Nations they sell to. They are Nations unto themselves. Most Corp Citizens make money in Corporate Script rather than being paid in Nuyen, which further helps them keep their own money in house.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 24, 2020, 02:16:51 pm
Quote from: Orphan81;1136019
It's just now they can use their toys on their hometurf to defend themselves too.

WHY. That's the main point. People just do not understand just how goddam expensive military expenditures are. It's massively wasteful spending your not getting back. If you want the military to 'defend your turf' (from who?) bribe the military.

It's more a case of Shadowrun writers not understanding the economics of scale....and just economics in general. In the real world, mercenary companies are only profitable in places with massively destabilized military presences but those places don't have corporations operating there because well...It's massively unprofitable to operate there. The exceptions have monopolies on exclusive resources and they make money selling that stuff to stable places, not to themselves.

Your not arguing with me as much as just using motte and bailey tactics.

You bring up a real-life corporation, which as I mentioned makes all its profits selling to governments, which are the only things that can afford such massive expenditures because of taxes and inflation.

Shadowruns Corporations are effectively communist mini states which I believe is possibly the least effective and hardest to make profit and taxes government possible.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: Itachi on June 24, 2020, 04:23:21 pm
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1136036

Shadowruns Corporations are effectively communist mini states which I believe is possibly the least effective and hardest to make profit and taxes government possible.

Don't know how other corps work but in Pueblo Corporate Council each citizen is also a company shareholder. Dont know if that changes much though. I agree with your points.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 24, 2020, 05:20:30 pm
Like the Shadowrun scary image is that of a worker being born in a megacorps hospital and then die in a megacorp produced coffin.

Well, think about that coffin. Who makes that coffin? A dedicated wood factory assumingly owned by them.
What happens if a rival megacorp makes wood for cheaper? They can't buy that wood to reduce costs. They have to continue using their expensive wood to their own consumer base that can't make more of a profit from because they control how much they get paid.

The idea is they send in Shadowrunners to steal their secrets, but what if their secret is spread across many facilities and a forest that took 10 years to cultivate? Now the corp (after spending a ton of money on an expensive mercenary operation) has to spend years upgrading their existing factories or planting an equivalent forest.

Or what if like in the real world they simply purchased the cheaper wood? Saves time and money which corporations love. Corporations generally buy out their competition but stay specific to a single kind of product because overgeneralizing leads to bloat and inefficiency. The megacorps that in the real world produces like 90% of the food don't also own the factories that produce the glass and plastic used to make those products casings. Its usually from regional producers (because it's cheaper than long-distance imports).
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: KingCheops on June 24, 2020, 06:41:39 pm
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1136074
Or what if like in the real world they simply purchased the cheaper wood? Saves time and money which corporations love. Corporations generally buy out their competition but stay specific to a single kind of product because overgeneralizing leads to bloat and inefficiency. The megacorps that in the real world produces like 90% of the food don't also own the factories that produce the glass and plastic used to make those products casings. Its usually from regional producers (because it's cheaper than long-distance imports).

They don't do that in your world?  I don't remember any source material whatsoever saying that Renraku only purchased Renraku wood products.  And the corporate books did in fact talk about vertical versus horizontal specialization and called out which corps were pursuing which strategy.  The Renraku employee/citizens would only be able to buy their wood coffins from the Renraku funeral homes in the arcology but the wood could come from one of the other megacorps.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 24, 2020, 06:58:53 pm
Quote from: KingCheops;1136091
I don't remember any source material whatsoever saying that Renraku only purchased Renraku wood products.

Because it makes no sense for them to make Renraku coffins. I said wood, I could have escalated to 'Coffins'. Why make a dedicated coffin making plant when Aztechnology makes cheaper wooden products?
To keep the profits 'in the house'?....But you're still playing Aztechnology for the wood, and have to pay for the expensive factory upkeep yourself.

This comes from a fundamental economic misunderstanding of prices and labour that's very keynesian
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: Ghostmaker on June 25, 2020, 08:13:22 am
Aztechnology is not the best corp to use for this comparison, due to their shenanigans in Aztlan proper (getting Aztlan to nationalize other corps' assets) which led to a full on tactical strike against major Aztech facilities by the Corporate Court and the other mega (AAA) corporations.

That being said, stop thinking of corp 'military' as traditional military forces. Think of them more like jumped up security personnel who, yes, can shoot you dead for stealing from the Stuffer Shack.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: Marchand on June 25, 2020, 11:02:34 am
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1135741
Cyberpunk is only anti-capitalist to people who don't understand that there are more than two economic systems, and that corporate run government is neither socialism or capitalism.


The classic Cyberpunk background of an ever smaller number of ever larger corporations getting ever more powerful is just old-fashioned Marxist economics.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1135741
Actually, the underground black market of the runners is much closer to true free market capitalism than it is to socialism.


Agree with that.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 25, 2020, 11:15:26 am
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1136202
Aztechnology is not the best corp to use for this comparison, due to their shenanigans in Aztlan proper (getting Aztlan to nationalize other corps' assets) which led to a full on tactical strike against major Aztech facilities by the Corporate Court and the other mega (AAA) corporations.
I know they just have a punchy name. Evo, or some other one or whatever.

Quote
That being said, stop thinking of corp 'military' as traditional military forces. Think of them more like jumped up security personnel who, yes, can shoot you dead for stealing from the Stuffer Shack.

They have personal fleets of aircraft carriers. They might as well heat their facilities with furnaces that burn pure money.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: KingCheops on June 25, 2020, 11:49:08 am
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1136224
They have personal fleets of aircraft carriers. They might as well heat their facilities with furnaces that burn pure money.

Okay been a while since I have a real life but I don't remember this at all.  Citation needed please.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 25, 2020, 12:20:40 pm
Quote from: KingCheops;1136233
Okay been a while since I have a real life but I don't remember this at all.  Citation needed please.

Its Rigger 3 (https://shadowrun.fandom.com/wiki/Saeder-Krupp) (Shadowrun 4th Edition). But other stuff mention corps leasing navy stuff FROM the Government.

Again its because Tabletop RPG writers rarely study economics.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: CRKrueger on June 25, 2020, 02:36:40 pm
Sadder-Krupp's the richest and most powerful megacorp on the earth owned and run by the most powerful being on the earth.  Yeah, they have a couple aircraft carriers, they can afford it, it's not the U.S. Navy.  Mitsuhama has one supercarrier, but they're practically an extension of the Japanese Imperial Navy.  Most of the Big 10 don't have anything like a major nation's military power.  They have military assets in case they need to protect corporate assets in a civil war, need to pressure a small country, need to flex against another megacorp, etc.

We're talking for most Megacorps brigade strength at best, with most at company or battalion strength and only the ones with the highest military rating reaching division level.  Even the armies of the UCAS, much diminished when compared to the old USA, still has military assets greater than all the Megas combined.  The only one that's hard to gauge is Aztechnology, since it's impossible to draw the line between Aztlan the country and Aztechnology the corp.

Monsanto in 2020 currently has larger military assets then some Megas.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 25, 2020, 03:28:29 pm
Quote from: CRKrueger;1136273
Sadder-Krupp's the richest and most powerful megacorp on the earth owned and run by the most powerful being on the earth.  Yeah, they have a couple aircraft carriers, they can afford it, it's not the U.S. Navy.  Mitsuhama has one supercarrier, but they're practically an extension of the Japanese Imperial Navy.  Most of the Big 10 don't have anything like a major nation's military power.  They have military assets in case they need to protect corporate assets in a civil war, need to pressure a small country, need to flex against another megacorp, etc.


I already listed many multiple times why you don't need a standing army for any of those things. I assume Lofwyr has a masochism fetish and secretly hires people to blow up his credits with a bazooka while he watches in a closet.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: KingCheops on June 25, 2020, 04:01:53 pm
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1136243
Its Rigger 3 (https://shadowrun.fandom.com/wiki/Saeder-Krupp) (Shadowrun 4th Edition). But other stuff mention corps leasing navy stuff FROM the Government.

Again its because Tabletop RPG writers rarely study economics.

Okay I agree with you.  That is dumb as a sack of bricks.  Note that that is 4e which is where most of the terrible stuff started.

Leasing navy stuff isn't too far gone.  Still stupid (just bribe some politicians like nowadays) but again this is supposed to be dystopic which means things aren't smart or efficient.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: Orphan81 on June 25, 2020, 06:52:23 pm
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1136277
I already listed many multiple times why you don't need a standing army for any of those things. I assume Lofwyr has a masochism fetish and secretly hires people to blow up his credits with a bazooka while he watches in a closet.

Now you're ignoring the part where he mentioned Monsanato today has more Military forces than most Shadowrun megacorps do. Today's Megacorps have military contractors they use to protect their assets in 3rd world countries. Banshee you have this habit of never wanting to admit when you're wrong and just trying to talk around the subject matter.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 25, 2020, 07:03:13 pm
Quote from: KingCheops;1136284
Leasing navy stuff isn't too far gone.  Still stupid (just bribe some politicians like nowadays) but again this is supposed to be dystopic which means things aren't smart or efficient.

It ties more into the Purple Mohawks aesthetic and Shadowrun really begins to break down when trying black trenchcoats. Fighting the corporate maxidrome and their army of flunkies works better in a punk and XTREME setting with Street Shamans and RADICUL elements more then it does for a setting taking itself 100% seriously.

Quote from: Orphan81;1136327
Now you're ignoring the part where he mentioned Monsanato today has more Military forces than most Shadowrun megacorps do.

'Most' megacorps? I assumed we were talking about the AAA ones, the smaller ones have much less information and I don't have much to compare to them. A standing army is not even close to a mercenary army for obvious reasons. Because you hire a mercenary army temporarily. And even you pointed out you hire them for 3rd world countries. Not to protect you from friggin UCAS. Even something like a SWAT team is ridiculously expensive to pay for, but Red Samurai from Renraku are even more expensive and have even less uses for a theoretically amoral megacorp. All of this shit only matters if you lobby for extraterritoriality and have to protect your own assets instead of just bribing local SWAT, or lobby to pass 'The Protect my assets' bill. Which is just even more depressing really.

I'm not saying it can't be done to make sense in the setting, it just isn't in Shadowrun.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: CRKrueger on June 25, 2020, 09:23:08 pm
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1136277
I already listed many multiple times why you don't need a standing army for any of those things. I assume Lofwyr has a masochism fetish and secretly hires people to blow up his credits with a bazooka while he watches in a closet.

Your argument is based on a few errors:
First the assumption that corporations can get countries to send armies to support their interests.  The USA isn't one country anymore, it's at least 7 with competing interests.  The "send the USMC to take Hawai'i" days are long gone.  There's not a cabal of US Oil Companies pushing for US Middle East involvement, each of the Big 10 has energy concerns and they compete against each other.  Huge areas of the Shadowrun world are without effective government, and Megas have assets in those areas to exploit the lack of law.  They also need military assets to secure them.
Second error is that these military assets are just spending money.  The Megas with the largest armies are also military contractors.
Third error is that you think Megacorp armies are capable of going toe to toe with First World nations.  They’re not even remotely close to that large, not even Ares.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 26, 2020, 12:05:45 am
Quote from: CRKrueger;1136361
Your argument is based on a few errors:

I think your elements may have merit to them, but I still fundementlly believe the authors creative decisions where linked to fundemental misunderstandings of geopolitics and economics. Because it was linked in a desire to make them as evil as possible and not really out of logic.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: lordmalachdrim on June 26, 2020, 07:36:52 am
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1136243
Its Rigger 3 (https://shadowrun.fandom.com/wiki/Saeder-Krupp) (Shadowrun 4th Edition).


Minor quibble but Rigger 3 and Rigger 3 Revised were both for Shadowrun 3rd Edition not 4th Edition.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 26, 2020, 08:09:34 am
Quote from: lordmalachdrim;1136420
Minor quibble but Rigger 3 and Rigger 3 Revised were both for Shadowrun 3rd Edition not 4th Edition.

Ah. Well there we go, its now 'legitimate'.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: Ghostmaker on June 26, 2020, 11:27:35 am
Didn't Pepsi own a battleship at one point?
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: KingCheops on June 26, 2020, 12:14:35 pm
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1136425
Ah. Well there we go, its now 'legitimate'.

Lol as I pointed out in the other SR thread you have -- even 3e has some stupid stuff.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: lordmalachdrim on June 26, 2020, 03:07:30 pm
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1136471
Didn't Pepsi own a battleship at one point?

17 Submarines
1 Frigate
1 Destroyer
1 Cruiser

https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/soviet-union-pepsi-ships
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: KingCheops on June 29, 2020, 05:52:34 pm
Quote from: lordmalachdrim;1136532
17 Submarines
1 Frigate
1 Destroyer
1 Cruiser

https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/soviet-union-pepsi-ships

Fuck new flavors!  Lets go Viking instead!!!
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: Ghostmaker on June 30, 2020, 08:11:15 am
Quote from: lordmalachdrim;1136532
17 Submarines
1 Frigate
1 Destroyer
1 Cruiser

https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/soviet-union-pepsi-ships

Thank God the Cola Wars didn't get stepped up to actual military conflicts :D
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: Omega on June 30, 2020, 11:18:56 am
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1135634
The problem the tards face there is that Catalyst (and FASA before them) already have shown how 'racism is bad, mmkay?'. It's like making fun of a clown. What're you gonna do, laugh at his shoes?

Clowns are racist because the wear white face paint and painted on lips which is clearly shown if you swap this to negative to be blackface and that wacist and must be ended. No more clowns.

Shadowrun is racist for having racism in it! teitch-twitch.

Shadowrun is racist because they use metas as stand ins for black people and thats erasure! ghasparoonies!

Shadowrun is racist because it is not a historically accurate depiction of native americans. And it is appropriation cause its not written by one. And because it uses stereotypes of magical natives! The horror!

Shadowrun is racist because it has native americans depicted in it at all!

Shadowrun is racist because it has the word shadow in the title. Shadows are dark and this is a clear KKK declaration against "darkies"! You monsters!

I miss anything?
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: HappyDaze on June 30, 2020, 08:33:14 pm
Quote from: Omega;1137185

I miss anything?

Perhaps the part about the "Evil Japanese" megacorps. They may not have been Aztechnology, but the Japanacorps were largely depicted less favorably than several of the others.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: Omega on July 01, 2020, 06:17:04 am
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1135985
A fundemental problem of Shadowrun is that Corporations owning their own lands and militaries isn't a benefit to them but a massive massive drawback. Militaries are SUPER expensive and make no profit without tax subsidy.

So it exists in this state of magical realism.


Then you have no idea what some corporates are trying to pull allready. They very much can sustain it given the right circumstances.

The main factor seems to be that the company either is, or owns some sort of security or even military tech branch. Security forces can be gradually, or quickly upgraded to ever more armed units. Take that to extremes and you have the SR corps with their private security and enough deals to maintain it. Arcologies probably can through taxes or equivalent. Also keep in mind that not all the corps keep big armies. Seems only the ones that are essentially city-states field the really heavy stuff. The rest seem to have varying levels of semi-normal security buffed up for a much meaner world.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: Omega on July 01, 2020, 06:35:55 am
Quote from: HappyDaze;1137294
Perhaps the part about the "Evil Japanese" megacorps. They may not have been Aztechnology, but the Japanacorps were largely depicted less favorably than several of the others.

Nope. Japanese dont count as minorities (untill its advantageous to claim so) and are white. But not. But really are!

Its a wonder SJWs can even type semi coherent sentences. Oh wait...
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: Itachi on July 01, 2020, 11:43:07 am
Don't know if it showed up here already, but these 2 SR adaptations, for The Spraw and Blades in the Dark respectively, look good. Old editions art, cyberdecks and all.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1If8nBsl73CFxyy1x951le8VNYYVL9xDr/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1CJ9HPLOO8w1hVQoorKsHdEUGwJXLIpiD/view?usp=sharing
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: Itachi on July 01, 2020, 12:25:34 pm
So, where do you think Shadowrun should go, after this 6e fiasco?

I think it's time it reinvents itself in a way not so different to what D&D has been doing with later editions. If I were Catalyst I would go simple next time. Something OSR inspired (or PbtA).
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on July 02, 2020, 01:27:17 am
Quote from: Omega;1137350
Then you have no idea what some corporates are trying to pull allready

I am VERY aware of what certain corporations are trying to pull which is why I know they couldn't or wouldn't if they could. Anything can be 'taken to extremes' to reach any result. But I had enough discussion of this discussion in the other Shadowrun thread.
Title: State of Shadowrun 6e today?
Post by: CRKrueger on July 02, 2020, 08:56:05 am
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1137500
I am VERY aware of what certain corporations are trying to pull which is why I know they couldn't or wouldn't if they could. Anything can be 'taken to extremes' to reach any result. But I had enough discussion of this discussion in the other Shadowrun thread.


Seeing as how you're never going to address any points made directly, that's probably for the best. :D