Lol I literally just read the modern weapon proficiency section of Chaos Earth 2 nights ago and holy hell what a mess!  It really reinforced that KS is very much a seat-of-the-pants GM.  There's a pretty good system in there but he can't quite capture it because he doesn't like rules being too restrictive.

We've also hit the nail on the head with some of my problems with the newer editions -- the stories just aren't my cup of tea!  That is 100% a personal thing but if I'd at least enjoyed how the world was developing and how the game was written I could have stuck with it and made it work.  But after the talent purge Catalyst was a husk.  Same issues I have with current Earthdawn.

I really wonder what will happen when Catalyst gets hit with the metatypes are racist bullshit that's going on today. Of course, in SR, the metatypes were specifically used to show the ugly side of racism (including both the underclasses of the orks & trolls along with the elf supremacists). Maybe it'll get a pass, but I think that's unlikely. Even more interesting will be the--now very much diminished and washed away--SR take on Native Americans.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1135424I really wonder what will happen when Catalyst gets hit with the metatypes are racist bullshit that's going on today. Of course, in SR, the metatypes were specifically used to show the ugly side of racism (including both the underclasses of the orks & trolls along with the elf supremacists). Maybe it'll get a pass, but I think that's unlikely. Even more interesting will be the--now very much diminished and washed away--SR take on Native Americans.

Don't think much is going to change.

After all, soy already is a vital part in the SR universe.
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Quote from: Spinachcat;1134822I've loved running and playing both RIFTS and Shadowrun. I thought SR 3e was quite good, but if I ran SR again, I'd run 1e. Why? It oozes with raw creativity. Also, after 6 editions, I know I could fill a table just for the nostalgia / curiosity factor.

As for RIFTS' system, it's a mess to read that runs great at the table...especially after you take a hammer to anything that doesn't work for you, or you just throw up your hands and accept the system weirdness. I've mentioned this before, but hot damn, some of my most memorable RPG moments have been with Palladium's games even though I could ramble for days about the problems in their system and settings. Somehow - and I don't know how - the issues with Palladium melt away at most games I've played over the decades.

And you could totally run Shadowrun with RIFTS. Hell, Rifts Japan just screams for such a campaign.

Its funny, I've talked about this a fair amount here, but I basically made a palladium-esque system because I can't really stand the finicky weirdness of palladium. I basically took the core of what I liked and stripped out some stuff. Weapons Proficiency and Skills that don't do anything but buff, gone. Skills are the attribute score the skill is based off of with a bonus to percentages based on whether the skill is primary, secondary, etc. With, Strike, Parry and Dodge, each class has its own combat "skill" that increases with level like before, those numbers either cap out at +5, +7, or +10 at level 15 depending on class. Spells and Psionics are clarified, most attack spells for example require the mage to roll strike to hit with it, and casters basically get a strike stat for hitting with spells. Saving throws simplified to 3 stats. Actions in combat basically work so that a first level character can move and take two actions on their turn. Spending an action point allows them to attack, cast a spell, etc. Thing is though, players can also bank an action to make reactions on their turn. Banking one action lets you have two reactions off your turn, such as make an attack of opportunity, dodge an attack, parry an attack, etc. Things like pull punch, roll with impact are still around, but optional rules. Stole some ideas from say D&D, where each class rolls a certain die to increase HP, rather than all humans just rolling a d6. So far, its worked out, kinda play testing it.

Dont know what youre talking about. The last official Shadowrun edition for me is 3rd edition.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1135424I really wonder what will happen when Catalyst gets hit with the metatypes are racist bullshit that's going on today. Of course, in SR, the metatypes were specifically used to show the ugly side of racism (including both the underclasses of the orks & trolls along with the elf supremacists). Maybe it'll get a pass, but I think that's unlikely. Even more interesting will be the--now very much diminished and washed away--SR take on Native Americans.

The problem the tards face there is that Catalyst (and FASA before them) already have shown how 'racism is bad, mmkay?'. It's like making fun of a clown. What're you gonna do, laugh at his shoes?

Hell, racism runs rampant in SR, ICly. Japanese vs non-Japanese of almost any stripe; UCAS/CAS vs the NAN; metaracial racism; magic vs mundane; transhumanists vs 'normal'; you name it, someone out there insists it's superior.

Granted, that won't stop them from making a complete fool of themselves and probably demanding the SR world be 'fixed'...

Quote from: Ghostmaker;1135634The problem the tards face there is that Catalyst (and FASA before them) already have shown how 'racism is bad, mmkay?'. It's like making fun of a clown. What're you gonna do, laugh at his shoes?

Hell, racism runs rampant in SR, ICly. Japanese vs non-Japanese of almost any stripe; UCAS/CAS vs the NAN; metaracial racism; magic vs mundane; transhumanists vs 'normal'; you name it, someone out there insists it's superior.

Granted, that won't stop them from making a complete fool of themselves and probably demanding the SR world be 'fixed'...

Lets be real, Shadowrun is relatively obscure. The only reason D&D is being targeted is because its the game that SJWs are aware of, they aren't actually a part of the community, they just want to bitch about things and move on to another target.

The meta commentary that SR has going for it does make the game however, I don't understand how you can censure everything. There are no stories without conflict, and trying to make everything safe is abjectly a rejection of the realities involving the human condition. With the way things are going, for example, exploring the questions of transhumanism in fiction seems like it would help facilitate important questions for humanity entering a new century. Or what discrimination would look like in a society like that. But whatever.

Quote from: ZetaRidley;1135652Lets be real, Shadowrun is relatively obscure. The only reason D&D is being targeted is because its the game that SJWs are aware of, they aren't actually a part of the community, they just want to bitch about things and move on to another target.

The meta commentary that SR has going for it does make the game however, I don't understand how you can censure everything. There are no stories without conflict, and trying to make everything safe is abjectly a rejection of the realities involving the human condition. With the way things are going, for example, exploring the questions of transhumanism in fiction seems like it would help facilitate important questions for humanity entering a new century. Or what discrimination would look like in a society like that. But whatever.

They would rather shut the discussion down than entertain the prospect of wrongthink.

Quote from: ZetaRidley;1135652Lets be real, Shadowrun is relatively obscure. The only reason D&D is being targeted is because its the game that SJWs are aware of, they aren't actually a part of the community, they just want to bitch about things and move on to another target.

The meta commentary that SR has going for it does make the game however, I don't understand how you can censure everything. There are no stories without conflict, and trying to make everything safe is abjectly a rejection of the realities involving the human condition. With the way things are going, for example, exploring the questions of transhumanism in fiction seems like it would help facilitate important questions for humanity entering a new century. Or what discrimination would look like in a society like that. But whatever.

Shadowrun is not so obscure. It has numerous video games under its name (probably more than any other non-D&D RPG), and in my experience it's one of the names most likely to come up (other than Vampire/WoD games) when mentioning an 80s/90s RPG that isn't D&D, or to be even recognized by someone who doesn't really play tabletop. Granted, D&D is the most recognizable name in TTRPGs by far. But I've actually seen SJWs who play RPGs bring it up as an example of "progressivism" in RPGs (as if to imply anti-SJWs shouldn't like it, cuz "bigots") cuz they've included LGBT characters in the game (at least the video game versions), and cyberpunk tends to be anti-capitalist, or at least critical of capitalism, as a genre. So it tends to attract commie and left-anarchist types.

Quote from: VisionStorm;1135668Shadowrun is not so obscure. It has numerous video games under its name (probably more than any other non-D&D RPG), and in my experience it's one of the names most likely to come up (other than Vampire/WoD games) when mentioning an 80s/90s RPG that isn't D&D, or to be even recognized by someone who doesn't really play tabletop. Granted, D&D is the most recognizable name in TTRPGs by far. But I've actually seen SJWs who play RPGs bring it up as an example of "progressivism" in RPGs (as if to imply anti-SJWs shouldn't like it, cuz "bigots") cuz they've included LGBT characters in the game (at least the video game versions), and cyberpunk tends to be anti-capitalist, or at least critical of capitalism, as a genre. So it tends to attract commie and left-anarchist types.

I've never actually seen anyone that wasn't already into tabletop a least somewhat deeply mention it, but that's just an observation and anecdote. I get where you're coming from with the capitalism stuff though, I've always enjoyed cyberpunk because it seems plausible.

Quote from: ZetaRidley;1135677I've never actually seen anyone that wasn't already into tabletop a least somewhat deeply mention it, but that's just an observation and anecdote. I get where you're coming from with the capitalism stuff though, I've always enjoyed cyberpunk because it seems plausible.

Yeah, people who know about it but don't play tabletop are rare, but they do exist thanks to the video games. Usually people who've only played video game RPGs.

Quote from: VisionStorm;1135668and cyberpunk tends to be anti-capitalist, or at least critical of capitalism, as a genre. So it tends to attract commie and left-anarchist types.

Cyberpunk is only anti-capitalist to people who don't understand that there are more than two economic systems, and that corporate run government is neither socialism or capitalism.

Actually, the underground black market of the runners is much closer to true free market capitalism than it is to socialism.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1135741Cyberpunk is only anti-capitalist to people who don't understand that there are more than two economic systems, and that corporate run government is neither socialism or capitalism.

Actually, the underground black market of the runners is much closer to true free market capitalism than it is to socialism.

It's what Belloc called the servile state. It's identical to any other collectivist state except that it's nominally corporate. Another good example is Outer Worlds, where the only way you can tell it's a "satire" of capitalism instead of socialism is that there are corporate slogans everywhere.

Quote from: TheSHEEEP;1135609Don't think much is going to change.

After all, soy already is a vital part in the SR universe.
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Well, since 4e, they have been doing everything they can to get away from the NAN being filled with painted-faced and feather-wearing tribesmen with bows and tomahawks. They still have a few of them here and there, but nothing like the original FASA stuff. I was pretty OK with this move myself, as I'd rather see the Sioux Wildcats in modern camo & tactical gear.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1135788Well, since 4e, they have been doing everything they can to get away from the NAN being filled with painted-faced and feather-wearing tribesmen with bows and tomahawks. They still have a few of them here and there, but nothing like the original FASA stuff. I was pretty OK with this move myself, as I'd rather see the Sioux Wildcats in modern camo & tactical gear.

Heh, the FASA Sioux Wildcats have plenty of tech and cyber.  The NAN Tribal Warrior archetype from 30 years ago even has a quote where he tells people if they're going to run the border, don't worry about Nature Spirits, worry about their Raven attack helicopters.  Do the Wildcats have shamans and adepts? Sure.  Are they behind on tech? Nope.