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Starting out "Artificially Stupid"

Started by HinterWelt, February 19, 2008, 04:09:04 PM

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Tim

Quote from: RPGPunditKing Arthur Pendragon. The fundamental myth of the English-speaking world.  The boy-squire who finds out he's actually of royal blood, and must win himself his father's kingdom.

Also the African myth "Epic of Sonjara"
 

Nicephorus

I can take or leave the change in power level, depending the rest of the context. I don't think there's a right or wrong, just a matter of taste.
 
The good and bad is that you start out playing X then proceed to Y then eventually wind up in Z. For some that change is good because it gives a new focus - you start out worrying about one level of problems and proceed to new levels as the original problems become trivial.
 
The problem with the paradigm is when people like one of X, Y, or Z but don't care for the others for whatever reason. "Why do we have to start out as whimps?" or "I want a realistic game and we left that after 4th level" or "I want time to explore this particular power level."
 
D&D 3rd in particular moves very quickly through power levels (at least with its default setup). After half a dozen sessions, you're pulpishly strong, half a dozen more, you're supers, half a dozen more, you're godlike, all within less than a year of game time.  You start with a reason to be cautious around housecats and, before you know it, you can jump off a cliff or get shot at by a hundred archers with a very good chance of survival.
 
Someone on ENWorld has developed E6, which boils down to 3E but you gain only feats after 6th level, no more hp and the like. It's a partial fix to the high end issues.

David R

Quote from: RPGPunditOr to put it another way, your claim would mean that long-term campaigns with D&D or SW D20 would be impossible. They are not.

Where the fuck did you get this....

Regards,
David R

Warthur

I actually think having a low-powered starting point for characters in games can serve a useful purpose: it gives the players an opportunity to try out the system using fairly simple characters (low power levels are usually synonymous with not having many skills/feats/kewl powerz) in fairly low-key, low-stakes adventures until everyone's comfortable with the system.

Then again, if I were running a game in a system that everyone was familiar with (and by familiar I mean "has recently played in at least one campaign using the system in question") I'd probably start the players off at a higher power level - no point redoing the training if everyone's already got a grip on the system.
I am no longer posting here or reading this forum because Pundit has regularly claimed credit for keeping this community active. I am sick of his bullshit for reasons I explain here and I don\'t want to contribute to anything he considers to be a personal success on his part.

I recommend The RPG Pub as a friendly place where RPGs can be discussed and where the guiding principles of moderation are "be kind to each other" and "no politics". It\'s pretty chill so far.

Ian Absentia

Quote from: droogSo the Hero's Journey is a 'basic concept of myth' and the only example you can come with is Star Wars?
It was the most readily available and grasped.  Furthermore, your slavish adherence to "classic" examples of the Hero's Journey, most of which really focus on the eminence of birthright, belie a bourgeois attitude toward what it means to be a "hero".  Bunyan alone represents the proletariat.

!i!

Nicephorus

Quote from: WarthurThen again, if I were running a game in a system that everyone was familiar with (and by familiar I mean "has recently played in at least one campaign using the system in question") I'd probably start the players off at a higher power level - no point redoing the training if everyone's already got a grip on the system.

I think that's a fairly common attitude.  It was nice to do once or twice in the past but why bother anymore.
 
Another factor for me is that one shots and play by post games are now the norm.  In the former, there's no time for growth.  In the latter, you risk having a slow start and losing everyone.  It's better to have "Here's the story, start shooting."

flyingmice

Quote from: telliusNever knew the term was "Hero's Journey", but kryyst has picked up on the stuff that I have never been comfortable with in the standard roleplaying game. So basically after years of frustration I built my own homebrew game to reflect this.

I prefer increasing in skills in expanding your character/going on that hero's journey. No levels, just experience. Never found one, so I made my own. Struggled with pieces and never thought to look online until recently (which admittedly, for someone made a career in IT, is pretty stupid of me).

That sounds exactly like me around 2001, Tellius. I had been working on a game system for years in total isolation, to do the things I wanted done. I was utterly shocked to find a whole RPG community - or rather dozens of separate RPG communities - on the web. I don't know why I never looked, and I've been online since the days of 4k computers and 100 baud acoustic coupler modems and the very first local BBSs, and I was in IT too at the time. It just never occured to me to look...

-clash
clash bowley * Flying Mice Games - an Imprint of Better Mousetrap Games
Flying Mice home page: http://jalan.flyingmice.com/flyingmice.html
Currently Designing: StarCluster 4 - Wavefront Empire
Last Releases: SC4 - Dark Orbital, SC4 - Out of the Ruins,  SC4 - Sabre & World
Blog: I FLY BY NIGHT

Callous

I tend to prefer flatter character progression curves.  I tend to prefer skill based over level based games for this reason.
 

flyingmice

If you know my games, you know my preference.

Quick overview of 'advancement' in clash's games:

  • Skills are gained over time, they aren't bought with XP.
  • Stats decrease over time, unless you spend your time keeping your stats up and ignoring getting skills.
  • HPs are derived from stats, and thus generally decrease over time.
  • If there is anything like XP at all, it's tied to political/military/organizational authority, not personal power or ability.

That, I think, covers it.

-clash
clash bowley * Flying Mice Games - an Imprint of Better Mousetrap Games
Flying Mice home page: http://jalan.flyingmice.com/flyingmice.html
Currently Designing: StarCluster 4 - Wavefront Empire
Last Releases: SC4 - Dark Orbital, SC4 - Out of the Ruins,  SC4 - Sabre & World
Blog: I FLY BY NIGHT

droog

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaIt was the most readily available and grasped.  Furthermore, your slavish adherence to "classic" examples of the Hero's Journey, most of which really focus on the eminence of birthright, belie a bourgeois attitude toward what it means to be a "hero".  Bunyan alone represents the proletariat.
Of course those examples are about birthright. That's our heritage of myth. That's why I say it may be a modern thing.

It's not bourgeois, it's aristocratic. There are no proletarians or bourgeois in Beowulf. Paul Bunyan, on the other hand, is a big old landowner and capitalist boss.

As for King Arthur — again, the eminence of birthright. Not a humble beginning, just a hidden one.

However, reviewing Campbell's notions, I do not think that humble beginnings are in fact necessary to the Hero's Journey.
The past lives on in your front room
The poor still weak the rich still rule
History lives in the books at home
The books at home

Gang of Four
[/size]

flyingmice

Quote from: droogHowever, reviewing Campbell's notions, I do not think that humble beginnings are in fact necessary to the Hero's Journey.

Of course not! the Hero is almost always 'noble', though the Hero himself is not always concious of this fact. Even Luke Skywalker follows this pattern.

Anyway - the Hero's journey may be great fun to explore in fiction, but I find it tedious in games. Give me Han Solo's progression anyday!

-clash
clash bowley * Flying Mice Games - an Imprint of Better Mousetrap Games
Flying Mice home page: http://jalan.flyingmice.com/flyingmice.html
Currently Designing: StarCluster 4 - Wavefront Empire
Last Releases: SC4 - Dark Orbital, SC4 - Out of the Ruins,  SC4 - Sabre & World
Blog: I FLY BY NIGHT

Ian Absentia

Quote from: droogIt's not bourgeois, it's aristocratic.
Actually, I was referring to your attitude by way of the legends and myths you cited, not the legends and lyths themselves. :p  And I was pulling your chain, you big Pinko.
QuoteHowever, reviewing Campbell's notions, I do not think that humble beginnings are in fact necessary to the Hero's Journey.
This, I believe, is true.  As I recall, Campbell spoke more of wandering away from the safety of the hearth and the eventual return with the spoils of adventure, rather than self-discovery of personal destiny.

!i!

Blackleaf

"Star Wars" despots vs. "Star Trek" populists has some very good discussion of Joseph Campbell's Monomyth and how it relates to modern storytelling.

Spike

Quote from: Stuart"Star Wars" despots vs. "Star Trek" populists has some very good discussion of Joseph Campbell's Monomyth and how it relates to modern storytelling.


I'm not a huge fan of Brin, for whatever reason, but I've always loved that article.
For you the day you found a minor error in a Post by Spike and forced him to admit it, it was the greatest day of your internet life.  For me it was... Tuesday.

For the curious: Apparently, in person, I sound exactly like the Youtube Character The Nostalgia Critic.   I have no words.

[URL=https:

flyingmice

Quote from: SpikeI'm not a huge fan of Brin, for whatever reason, but I've always loved that article.

Well I am, and agree entirely with his point.

:D

-clash
clash bowley * Flying Mice Games - an Imprint of Better Mousetrap Games
Flying Mice home page: http://jalan.flyingmice.com/flyingmice.html
Currently Designing: StarCluster 4 - Wavefront Empire
Last Releases: SC4 - Dark Orbital, SC4 - Out of the Ruins,  SC4 - Sabre & World
Blog: I FLY BY NIGHT