Quote from: kryystHate power creep love games where you start out and generally end at the same physical level it's your skills (and possible super powers) that generally set you apart. You aren't a better fighter because you can take more damage and hit ubber harder, you are a better fighter because you are better at defending yourself and you do more damage because you are more skilled at attacking and hitting critical areas.

Never knew the term was "Hero's Journey", but kryyst has picked up on the stuff that I have never been comfortable with in the standard roleplaying game. So basically after years of frustration I built my own homebrew game to reflect this.

I prefer increasing in skills in expanding your character/going on that hero's journey. No levels, just experience. Never found one, so I made my own. Struggled with pieces and never thought to look online until recently (which admittedly, for someone made a career in IT, is pretty stupid of me).

Obviously, I should weigh in, whilst simultaniously being utterly unnecessary.


On thing that strikes me is the general lack of easy lateral growth... if change is necessary.

I mean, Luke Skywalker could be a badass moisture farmer for all we know at the start of Star Wars, but he sucks as a Jedi. (actually, the evidence is in: he was ALWAYS a hotshot pilot... to bad Han owned the ship and did the flying....).

Less extreme: Han Solo is a decent smuggler and a bad ass pilot, but by the end of the Trilogy he has, in theory anyway, become a decent leader and strategian.  He doesn't get  better at piloting or shooting a fool in the face.


Generally, however, games work from a 'scoring' position, with XP being a reward mechanic, and 'level' or other measure being used for comparative badassitude.  It works, but its uncreative to keep doing it over and over.

Lets take 'Spikes alternative Dark Heresy' as our example of what could have been:

First of all, you get at least one guy to be the actual inquisitor. More than one is possible, but really sort of pointless.  Lets dip into the evil of 'Niche protection' for a moment.

Inquisitor: this guy's main role is to wave his Rosette around and demand that people respect his authoriai.  He's a passable generalist outside of that, though it is possible that he has some other area of badassitude, at the expense of his general expertise.

Interrogator: This is Inquistor Junior. He can wave the Rosette around a bit, but inside the Inquisition itself he's...well... Junior. On the other hand, he's actually better at general stuff than his boss.

Melee Flunky: THis guy whups ass at close combat. That's his schtick. He is probably ok at shooting stuff, but really... like any other acolyte he only wields the Rosette by proxy.

Shooter: the counterpart to the melee dude.

Face: smarmy charismatic with connections and whatnot. More likely to have some Rosette Time for the boss, as 'body double' is occasionally on the Agenda.

Psychic: wizbang powers, Highly unlikely to get Rosette facetime, but you can blast shit with your mind!

Lexicanum: Fancy setting word for: I know everymotherfuckingthing.


Now, leaving aside all the fancy schmancy ways to fill any of these (and other niches), what you get is a guy with political pull but by himself is probably not all that scary. Sure, he can order the execution of a Planetary Governor (kings), and even kill worlds, but if someone serious jumps in his face, there's not too much he can do. That's why he brings in experts.

But what does it mean XP wise?

Well, first of all, it doesn't mean that one day the Inquistor will be running solo while hte rest of his team plays sideline to the man.

His growth isn't measured in beating all these hyperspecialists in their chosen feilds. Its measured in political pull within the Inquisition itself.  Its measured in connections, informers, and favors, and eventually its measured in actual rank (there aren't many that I'm aware of...) and the ability to coordinate sector wide Inquistorial business...

For Junior, he'll make inquisitor one day, sure. He'll always be second fiddle inside the Inquisition, but he'll also always be just a bit more useful than the bossman outside of waving the Rosette around. Of course, compared to the other inquisitors working for his boss he'll be the one calling the shots and organizing things on the ground.

The other specialist might not ever become Inquisitors in their own right (lets say its possible, however...) but could become leaders of entire suborganizations working for the 'boss'. Shooter leads squads of sloggers and crack snipers, the Lexicanum has an entire library and flunkies doing research...

Throw in the ability to cross train a bit (this is where Junior gets to be a full fledged Inquistor, say, or an Acolyte becomes a Junior...), though I suspect to be fully functional, you'd rank abilities sort of like Amber... Junior becomes a Melee badass, but he's always rank 2 compared to actual Melee dude...

The other measure of power is in, of all things, gear.  Here is where DH dropped a ball as well. Any Inquisitor has the authority to just order up Bolters for his goon squads. The presumption is that they don't because bolters are big nasty machines that are unsubtle as hell and really only good for open war...

Power Armor, ditto, becomes a stylistic choice... at least at this scale of ability.  Does your fighter chunk it out because he's hard as nails? Or does he dance balletically around his enemy, relying on speed and skill to carry the day?  Unless you are a space marine then likely power armor does not make for good dancing...

That's not the gear I'm talking about. No. Like an Acolyte, the Inquistion generally wants you to already be excellent. If its a power sword, great. Psychic handcrafted named saber handed down for generations among your clan? As long as psychic isn't short hand for 'demonic'.

No. What I'm talking about is 'Wargear', shit that ain't standard on the books, shit you can ONLY get with contacts and power, and still might require years of virgins slaving over forges crafted from pure silver or some wonky shit to make.

OR stolen from defeated enemies. That shit's traditional too.

I'm talking, I dunno, tattooed hexegrammatic wards all over the Psychic, letting him more safely tap his more bad-ass powers.  I'm talking Archeotech Cybernetic implants from the Age of Strife, I'm talking Holy Relics and Force Staffs with the warded skull of your most potent psychic used as the headpeice.

I'm talking armored floating life support chairs for the crippled psychic Inquisitor, complete with gunpods and neato sensor suites.

When you hired the bad-assest swordsman to be your flunky, you don't expect him to get better at swordsmanship. You just give him, eventually, better toys.

But... I think I've gone off the rails here, so I'll step back from the keys for a bit....

Hero's Journey...isn't that Joseph Campbell's phrase describing the literary/mythological convention of the youth that goes on a journey to acquire secret knowledge and power...Luke Skywalker, Gilgamesh, Beowulf, Arthur, and such?

I'm not sure that having 80 hit points and being able to cast fireball are necessarily the same thing.

Edit: Whoops...didn't read the second page. This has all been covered.

Quote from: HinterWeltI have no idea what "Hero's Journey" is.

You can find an overview of Campbell's "monomyth" or "hero's journey" here and here.

Quote from: BalbinusTo go back to your original post, it may sound happy, but to folk like me who are heartily sick of it as a paradigm of rpg design it's not a happy phrase.

If I could remove one design element in rpgs, it would be advancement.

In fact, I'll start a new thread on that very topic

Honestly, I was very close (about 15 years ago) to cutting out advancement in Iridium so I truly know where you are coming from. At this point, it would be fairly easy to do this with the existing Iridium.

That said, I am confident that you would need to drop some sort of reward system in. Perhaps combine it with a Karma/fate point system. Give characters some sort of bonus powers for successful action.

Worth thinking about and I will most likely go find your other thread.

Bill

Quote from: HinterWeltOh, no problem. Wasn't meant as snarky, just saying "I did not know that was a reserved phrase, here is what I meant".

I find "Hero's Journey" just a little positive for what I am trying to express here. It sounds like a happy-happy thing and I am not sure anyone would view it that way. Let me stress, to a lesser extent, I am confident that this is viewed very positively and have no problem. I don't really have examples of published rules but plenty of 2nd ed AD&D games I played in had the point where nothing could touch you. Maybe that is hwat you mean by "Hero's Journey" but it is a negative in my book when carried to an extreme, which is where I am shooting for.

Bill

The problem is that some people don't like the Hero's Journey (which is a basic concept of Myth), and some do.

Those who don't want to see a story where someone already begins as an uberman, or as a competent but mortal dude, and stays there.

The Hero's Journey is one of the basic stories of myth; someone from humble beginnings going out and becoming a man of legend. Its not like RPGs invented this; think of Luke Skywalker, who starts out as a know-nothing farmboy and ends up being the mighty Jedi.

D&D as its fundamentally set up (in every edition thus far, at least) is intended to recreate that concept.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditThe problem is that some people don't like the Hero's Journey (which is a basic concept of Myth), and some do.

Those who don't want to see a story where someone already begins as an uberman, or as a competent but mortal dude, and stays there.

The Hero's Journey is one of the basic stories of myth; someone from humble beginnings going out and becoming a man of legend. Its not like RPGs invented this; think of Luke Skywalker, who starts out as a know-nothing farmboy and ends up being the mighty Jedi.

D&D as its fundamentally set up (in every edition thus far, at least) is intended to recreate that concept.

RPGPundit

Perhaps I am wording it poorly. My issue is not even so much with change as with (man, I want to use "power bloat" here but I do not know if that is a reserved word as well) going beyond harm. Luke still got his butt handed to him at the end of the the series. Some games seem to encourage him walking in a taking all kinds of force bolts and knocking Darth aside with a flick of his hand because he went and killed 10K worth of rats in a dark hallway. Now, I am not saying advancement is bad. I can see logic in it but I think the issue would be too much advancement or advancement of the wrong type. For instance, learning a new skill so you can defeat the uber-bad or questing for the uber-weapon then learning to use it. For me, the adventure is seeking improvement of ones self not the accumulation of hit points or wound levels.

As an aside, I understand the concept of the hero's journey, I just never heard the jargon.

Mind, before anyone calls me on saying this is the "one true way", I am not. This is what I enjoy in a game and in the games I design. Plenty of folks have fun gaming the system or going for that super power level. Just not for me.

Bill

Quote from: RPGPunditD&D as its fundamentally set up (in every edition thus far, at least) is intended to recreate that concept.

I don't agree at all.

If you were really into Campbell's work you could certainly create a Hero's Journey type narrative -- but I don't see anything fundamental to the game that makes it that way.

Unless you're looking at it on a very, very high level in which case it describes just about every form of challenge you could imagine:

Learn about challenge
Struggle to overcome the challenge
Succeed at the challenge
Return from overcoming the challenge
Enjoy reward for success at the challenge

As soon as you get more in-depth than that I think it starts breaking down.

Quote from: RPGPunditThe problem is that some people don't like the Hero's Journey (which is a basic concept of Myth).... The Hero's Journey is one of the basic stories of myth; someone from humble beginnings going out and becoming a man of legend.... think of Luke Skywalker, who starts out as a know-nothing farmboy and ends up being the mighty Jedi.

So the Hero's Journey is a 'basic concept of myth' and the only example you can come with is Star Wars?

Let's see: Achilles, Hector, Odysseus, Siegfried, Beowulf, Maui, Lancelot, Paul Bunyan, Heracles and Gilgamesh. Not much starting from humble beginnings there.

I'm beginning to wonder if the Hero's Journey exists outside 20th-century thought, or maybe only Joe Campbell's thought.

Lucas was as much a Campbell acolyte as a Kurosawa acolyte, and the films do show both influences very well.  Space Opera Chambara with a side order of Big Damn Monomyth is what he made, and it shows.  (For fuck's sake, the copy of Hero with a Thousand Faces has a still of Hamill-as-Luke from The Empire Strike Back on it.)

Hate power creep, think that whole business of "heroes' journey" and bildungsroman is played out. My preference is to start out competent (not godlike, not the best in the universe) and pretty much stay there. I could live with no advancement at all besides "character development".

Are long term campaigns and the Hero's Journey mutually exclusive ? Because IME they are. And by this I mean I have always associated certain themes with the Hero's Journey that are none existent in the long term campaigns I have run.

Regards,
David R

We've talked about D&D and how the Hit Points and Damage Dealing gains of the characters is largely artificial -- but one thing that does change as they increase in levels is their access to utility spells and magic items.  Scrying, Teleporting, Area Control -- these offer tactics (both in combat and outside of combat) not available at lower levels.

Quote from: droogSo the Hero's Journey is a 'basic concept of myth' and the only example you can come with is Star Wars?

Let's see: Achilles, Hector, Odysseus, Siegfried, Beowulf, Maui, Lancelot, Paul Bunyan, Heracles and Gilgamesh. Not much starting from humble beginnings there.

I'm beginning to wonder if the Hero's Journey exists outside 20th-century thought, or maybe only Joe Campbell's thought.

King Arthur Pendragon. The fundamental myth of the English-speaking world.  The boy-squire who finds out he's actually of royal blood, and must win himself his father's kingdom.

RPGPundit

Quote from: David RAre long term campaigns and the Hero's Journey mutually exclusive ? Because IME they are. And by this I mean I have always associated certain themes with the Hero's Journey that are none existent in the long term campaigns I have run.

Regards,
David R

It would depend how quickly the hero develops.

Or to put it another way, your claim would mean that long-term campaigns with D&D or SW D20 would be impossible. They are not.

RPGPundit