Quote from: RPGPundit;991986I think Paizo's ultimate destiny is very similar to White Wolf's. They were huge because D&D was in a moment of weakness; now that moment has passed, and they will keep slowly but steadily eroding their market share as they march into irrelevance. How slowly depends on choices they make along the way.

While Paizo has lost market share, I haven't heard anywhere that their sales have dropped.  While D&D is bigger again, that's because the RPG market in general grew with 5e rather than Paizo losing customers.

In most markets pulling in new customers is the job of the market leader(s) [not that they do it out of altruism - it just makes good business sense as it's more efficient than stealing customers from the little guys], and it appears that 5e is doing a pretty decent job of it thus far.

What I've heard, and take this with a big grain of salt for the rumor that it is, is that Paizo's still growing, but it's mostly just selling more product to the same customers.

To me Starfinder was a very solid "meh". They fix a few small issues yet it's still the same house with a primer coat of paint. To be fair that's how they sold it. What is hurting them is the terrible binding on the core books. It happens once, twice I can excuse it. More than that and they keep using the same printer is being both cheap and inexcusable. Being offered a replacement copy for free is all well and good. It's a know issue that keeps coming up. They have a band-aid fix to a bigger problem and don't seem to want to really fix it once and for all.

I don't think as a company they are hurting yet their agressive release schedule is beginning to affect the quality of their material. They have been putting more reprint in their books. THe Adventurer's guide was 1/3 rehash from existing sources. The latest Bestiary had more than it's fair share as well. Fans don't like to pay for reprints.

Quote from: sureshot;992612To me Starfinder was a very solid "meh". They fix a few small issues yet it's still the same house with a primer coat of paint. To be fair that's how they sold it. What is hurting them is the terrible binding on the core books. It happens once, twice I can excuse it. More than that and they keep using the same printer is being both cheap and inexcusable. Being offered a replacement copy for free is all well and good. It's a know issue that keeps coming up. They have a band-aid fix to a bigger problem and don't seem to want to really fix it once and for all.

Mine is holding up, but lately when I open/close the book, I hear the binding creak and I cringe a little.

Quote from: Biscuitician;992547WW aren't irrelevant. They have a product, you don't like it. That's not irrelevance.

Learn what words mean before trying to use them.

ir·rel·e·vance

noun

the quality or state of being irrelevant.
"the document was withheld on grounds of irrelevance"

a person or thing that is irrelevant.
"he regarded religion as an irrelevance"

ir·rel·e·vant

adjective

not connected with or relevant to something.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;992222I stand corrected. The early press suggested downloadable versions of the rulebooks would be included. Apparently that hasn't turned out to be the case, so the reality is that WotC doesn't offer anything comparable to the Starfinder PDF that Paizo sells for $10.

And there is nothing Paizo offers that's comparable to the D&D Beyond services that WOTC offers.

WOTC does provide the basic rules for free. Which is a fully playable version of the game, and which remains the baseline of assumptions for adventures they publish. They also provide the SRD for free. The combination of which makes for a pretty powerful free version of the rules, but which is not the complete rules. And then there is the complete rules in a utility which is pretty amazing, for a fee.

There are advantages and disadvantages to each system. Presenting it as "X doesn't offer what Y offers" is a pretty skewed perspective when you fail to mention, "And also Y doesn't offer what X offers".

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;992584While Paizo has lost market share, I haven't heard anywhere that their sales have dropped.  

I have.  I don't take it seriously though.

Quote from: Mistwell;992658I have.  I don't take it seriously though.

Okay - I haven't heard anything substantial anywhere that their sales have dropped.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;992629Mine is holding up, but lately when I open/close the book, I hear the binding creak and I cringe a little.

I hope it holds up yet from what I hear about the binding issues be very careful with it.

I would not be surprised if they fell into the same trap that TSR did. Too much product released too fast and not enough demand for it. Or worse too much product and fans simply not buying it in large enough amounts to be profitable in the long run. They have rpgs stuff, comics, their card game, the maps, the novelty dice and so on. I'm a big fan of Pathfinder flaws and all and even I can't keep up. I would not be surprised if that was the case with others in the hobby as well. I think they need to slow down somewhat. Especially with 5E on the market imo.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;992629Mine is holding up, but lately when I open/close the book, I hear the binding creak and I cringe a little.

Mine started gapping on the top last session.

I even made sure to break in the binding before putting it to regular use. It seems like there might not be enough glue between the binding and the signatures.

Quote from: Mistwell;992657And there is nothing Paizo offers that's comparable to the D&D Beyond services that WOTC offers.

WOTC does provide the basic rules for free. Which is a fully playable version of the game, and which remains the baseline of assumptions for adventures they publish. They also provide the SRD for free. The combination of which makes for a pretty powerful free version of the rules, but which is not the complete rules. And then there is the complete rules in a utility which is pretty amazing, for a fee.

There are advantages and disadvantages to each system. Presenting it as "X doesn't offer what Y offers" is a pretty skewed perspective when you fail to mention, "And also Y doesn't offer what X offers".

Pathfinder doesn't require a Twitch account to obtain electronic copies of their books.  Thus Pathfinder wins by default.

Quote from: Biscuitician;992547Do you hear yourself?

"ultimate destiny"?

Vampire wasn't succesful because people couldn't find a preferrable version of DnD to play instead. It was successfull because it appealed to a mood or a zeitgeist. You might not like the game, that's fine, but don't bullshit us.

WW aren't irrelevant. They have a product, you don't like it. That's not irrelevance.

The WW that put out Vampire in the early 90s doesn't even exist anymore.

Quote from: RPGPundit;993141The WW that put out Vampire in the early 90s doesn't even exist anymore.

Yes. However the WoD IP that they created still does exist, and has enough public interest that a new crew has invested in buying White Wolf anew. We will know how popular that IP remains with the release of Vampire 5th edition. The comparative question is, were Paizo to fold, how much interest would there be in keeping Pathfinder alive?

Do you guys own stock in Paizo or something? :rolleyes: