A 600page book? In this economic climate? How much will this retail for? It seems like insanity to me! I personally think i'd struggle consuming all of that in any financial situation.
Does any rpg need to be that long?
As a long-standing Fudge and sc-fi fan, I was potentially interested buying this game. But when I first saw the book and just how huge it is, my heart sank. My gut reaction was "Am I really expected to read all that?" .
Agreed.
I've taken a look and man - holy overkill.
Anima should have been, but alas -- it's a mere 320. If it'd been another 320 & $40 big, I would have still grabbed it up without a second thought. :drool:
I can't see how any rpg needs to be 600 pages!
Quote from: Soylent Green;271589But when I first saw the book and just how huge it is, my heart sank.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;271617I can't see how any rpg needs to be 600 pages!
I weep for gamers these days.
And the BEST stuff only takes up TWO pages!
Quote from: Dr Rotwang!;271636And the BEST stuff only takes up TWO pages!
And I could get that for free! ;)
(In fact, I've stashed it away in my google notebook (http://www.google.com/notebook/public/05459702402456288785/BDQQ4LAoQrbypzr8h).)
Quote from: Caesar Slaad;271626I weep for gamers these days.
why? because i don't have the time or, frankly, the inclination to wade through 600 pages to play agame that could probably be easily explained in half that, or thus to pay that kind of price because of its size?
Quote from: Caesar Slaad;271650And I could get that for free! ;)
(In fact, I've stashed it away in my google notebook (http://www.google.com/notebook/public/05459702402456288785/BDQQ4LAoQrbypzr8h).)
and i could get starblazer for free if i wanted, so what?
Here's what turns me off about
Starblazer:
- The size. It's a turn-off for me because I want a quick read.
- The complexity. More specifically, the whole bit about Aspects and Tags -- it comes across as being WAAAAAAAY more involvement and fiddling-about with something that should just happen. Why do I hafta pay to use the slippery floor? I don't like having that codified this way.
- Where's the rock'n'roll? I found the "space opera adventure" part, but...
i think rock and roll translates as 'old school' as the comics are about twenty years plus old.
The 600 pages is intimidating, particularly for a system that is supposedly "light". But a quick break down of the contents and there is a lot of non-essential material. If you only look at character generation, and rules for basic tasks and combat, there is probably around 200 pages. Still pretty meaty, but a bit more manageable. IMHO, it really should have been two books... a player's guide, and a companion/GM's guide.
I can't imagine many shops taking the chance on ordering something that size in (or rather that expensive).
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;271669and i could get starblazer for free if i wanted, so what?
Alright, I was funnin/tipping my hat to Rotwang.
You, on the other hand, are not fun.
I get that you really don't think it's worth it. Really.
Quote from: Caesar Slaad;271700Alright, I was funnin/tipping my hat to Rotwang.
You, on the other hand, are not fun.
I get that you really don't think it's worth it. Really.
What a silly comment.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;271715What a silly comment.
Well, the alternative is getting pissy in reaction to your axe-grinding. Which I'm really not in for tonight.
Suffice it to say: it's FATE 3.0 at its core, which gives you lots of options to build characters with, but easy to use in play. But it extends that same principle to starships, organizations, and even empires. Which AFAIAC, is a good thing.
It's a good game. AFAIAC, one of the best to come out this year.
SA is 600 pages of awesome. From what I saw of the PDF, its just astounding; it may be complex, but it also looks like its highly open to compartmentalizing, and removing the things you don't like. It comes with several pre-made settings, and complete rules for creating one's own settings, with lots of random tables.
My only complaint is that I have yet to receive my review copy!!
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;271737It comes with several pre-made settings, and complete rules for creating one's own settings, with lots of random tables.
Okay, I'll look at it again -- but I'll be looking for THIS.
I've had the pdf for months and yes this book has all sorts of cool in it... if you like FATE 3.0 then Starblazers could very well be the definitive Space book for FATE 3.0.
I don't really like aspects, and I gather that that's pretty much an essential part of Fate.
Am I right?
The whole Aspects thing sounds terrible - I like FUDGE but have no interest in FUDGE-FATE. Would it be easy enough to drop all that narrativist stuff and run it as FUDGE? Alternatively, is there enough there to use it as a generic sf sourcebook?
I've been thinking about using it in conjunction with StarSIEGE, but SS's layout is so ugly I'm not sure I want to do that.
Quote from: jswa;271957I don't really like aspects, and I gather that that's pretty much an essential part of Fate.
Am I right?
hey guys sorry i've not been around, totally missed this thread till now!
Well someone else was asking about how to introduce some typical DnD players and i suggested they just dont use Aspect initially - it plays just fine without them but i still think they're a great part of the Fate rules. You can just use Fate points to add a +1 anytime you want. I suggest the GM use Aspects for the bad guys so the players get to see them in action and maybe get jealous and want them for themselves!
So why 600 pages? Well I've always hated the fact that so many rpg core books are missing stuff that is so vital - doesn't it bug you when you find out the starship rules are coming out next month, oh and you need the campaign supplement that just came out, don't forget the creature feature book and our special book on playing empires...so I figured why not put the whole lot in one book.
At £30 (£27 if pre-ordered) it's pretty good value for money - most rpg's are around £30 and clock in at about 200-300 pages with endless supplements costing you upwards of £100 for what we've given you in starblazer.
The guys at cubicle 7 were really supportive of my desire to put it all in - though looking at it a slip case of say 10 books would have perhaps been more practical - hmm maybe a deluxe edition!
It's the book i always hoped i'd find in a game store and never did. Of course there's still plenty of supplements to come out - lots of mini freebies and small / cheap supplements focusing on areas of special interest that didn't need to go in the main book - more info on running empires, tons of adventures and campaigns that feedback suggested shouldn't be taking up space in the core book, etc.
I tried to put in lots of short cuts - the whole starship section is prefaced with a paragraph suggesting gm's with players who don't care for starship combat should just run a quick skill check to summarise what happens in the starship fight, or just avoid it all together.
you see it's all just one big tool kit - you can take or leave whatever parts you want. Because it's such a big book we put in a quick one page 'how do i' index for stuff you need to do during gameplay in case you really want the book around but i do stress the book shouldn't be opened during a game- use the handy reference sheets or make it up - keeping the game going is always more important than checking if a modifier is +1 or +2. The book should be your goto resource for planning games, creating characters and monsters etc.
Now i'm looking at creating a very cheap player's guide that is all the stuff players need to create their characters - so character creation, the intro rules chapter, careers, skills and stunts. Probably a pdf initially.
i do hate big gaming books full of text though and the only reason i let myself off with starblazer is because it's so stuffed full of great art from the comics to inspire people, Fred Hicks layout job has made it very readable and easy on the eye. I want it to be something you want to get lost in absorbing the vibe of Starblazer - the rock n roll bit was about the attitude of the game - it's supposed to be about having a wild night in with your friends rocking around the galaxy not spending the night adding up numbers and checking rules.
would love to know any other comments - negative and positive don't worry it's only a book i'd rather know what people are thinking and improve the next one....nope, no more 600 page books coming, one of my next projects is anything but!
Oh I haven't forgotten your review copy Pundit! you're on the list for as soon as the hard covers ship!
chris
At least now HERO won't be the only rpg that can stop a bullet.
Quote from: ChrisBirch;272013Oh I haven't forgotten your review copy Pundit! you're on the list for as soon as the hard covers ship!
chris
Ahhh... NOW we're cooking with gas. Well done.
Again, for me to like something based on FUDGE requires that it be done very well; and you guys know I don't run with that "narrativist" bullshit.
So when I say that Starblazers seems very cool, its precisely because of what Chris said above: It is the ULTIMATE space-opera toolkit. And unlike other games I've seen that use the same system as their starting point, with Starblazers it really seems that you can add or remove any of the parts you like or dislike, and fine-tune the game to be almost exactly what you want, in terms of rules-orientation, in terms of complexity, in terms of everything.
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Well, Chris, I've stated my say above, but I'll refine it a bit: It's the narrativist-type Tags and Compelling and Spin and etc. It's just too, too much to absorb and keep track of and worry about and count on when what I want to do is shoot the Mekalor right in its face-plate and snatch the orphans away from its grasp. I realize that I can jettison that, but then I just have Fudge, and I had Fudge already.
I will say, though, that I made a character last night and faked the other "players'" legends, so that was fun and engaging. Did you know that Mako Sharpe is the real reason the Space-Bikers have it out for Rombo MacTrans? I brought the book to work, too, so I could look at it a little more.
That said, don't I get a hardcover, too...? I purchased at Gencon.
Quote from: Dr Rotwang!;272046Well, Chris, I've stated my say above, but I'll refine it a bit: It's the narrativist-type Tags and Compelling and Spin and etc. It's just too, too much to absorb and keep track of and worry about and count on when what I want to do is shoot the Mekalor right in its face-plate and snatch the orphans away from its grasp. I realize that I can jettison that, but then I just have Fudge, and I had Fudge already.
I will say, though, that I made a character last night and faked the other "players'" legends, so that was fun and engaging. Did you know that Mako Sharpe is the real reason the Space-Bikers have it out for Rombo MacTrans? I brought the book to work, too, so I could look at it a little more.
That said, don't I get a hardcover, too...? I purchased at Gencon.
Yes you do - you'll get them the same time as everyone else - should be announcing the date soon
Well what i'd do is just drop aspects, compelling, tags, - that leaves you with skills and fate points which can be spent to get a plus one or maybe a re-roll. I really don't think the system is broken if you lose those parts. Different, not broken, although i think the real flavour is in the aspects. To be honest once you strip it down to just the skills it's a fairly basic rpg system - just like a lot of other games out there. It's why i thought it would appeal to a wide range of people though hopefully - those who like more emphasis on story and those who want just simple mechanics. there's also enough ideas and tools in there to make it a worthwhile purchase for those who don't really want the system.
in my games I've generally avoided using stunts and let people dream up their own if they wanted them, mainly because I've done most of my own playtests with absolute rpg beginners. some gm's and players get more in to compelling and tags, i've seen games with not one single compel or tag and it flowed fine.
if you wanted to go down the hardcover narrative route you could just play with aspects and lose everything else.
i hear there's also a pretty nifty plot generating system in there somewhere ;-)
Quote from: ChrisBirch;272050Well what i'd do is just drop aspects, compelling, tags, - that leaves you with skills and fate points which can be spent to get a plus one or maybe a re-roll.
I'm gonna drop the Fate Points too. Old School, mate. :p
Seriously, the main thing I value in an RPG is you-are-there immersion. Metagame resources (FPs) and novelistic devices (Aspects) seriously detract from that in play. They may be great for author-stance story-now narrativist play, but I've learnt the hard way that's not what I want from an RPG.
Simple, fast playing rules, yes.
The good news is that, looking over the preview, it looks to me like I can indeed scrape off all the narrativist stuff and get a decent playable game, so I'm going to order my copy now.
Edit: except that I see it's *still* not in distribution yet... *sigh* :(
Quote from: S'mon;272065I'm gonna drop the Fate Points too. Old School, mate. :p
Seriously, the main thing I value in an RPG is you-are-there immersion. Metagame resources (FPs) and novelistic devices (Aspects) seriously detract from that in play. They may be great for author-stance story-now narrativist play, but I've learnt the hard way that's not what I want from an RPG.
Simple, fast playing rules, yes.
The good news is that, looking over the preview, it looks to me like I can indeed scrape off all the narrativist stuff and get a decent playable game, so I'm going to order my copy now.
Edit: except that I see it's *still* not in distribution yet... *sigh* :(
good plan! I know people 'play' differently, some people find the narrative style elements help them get into character more easily, for other's they just want a hand full of dice to roll and to balance numbers. There's nothing wrong with either route, i think we're lucky to sit somewhere between the two and please a lot of people.
No it isn't in distribution yet, but if you order now you get the pdf for free plus you get it at £27 - the hard copy is going to be £30 once it's in distribution so you're making a little saving.
Quote from: ChrisBirch;272050Yes you do - you'll get them the same time as everyone else - should be announcing the date soon
No hurry, chief -- just making sure I didn't miss out by mistake!
QuoteWell what i'd do is just drop aspects, compelling, tags, - that leaves you with skills and fate points which can be spent to get a plus one or maybe a re-roll. I really don't think the system is broken if you lose those parts. Different, not broken, although i think the real flavour is in the aspects.
You're right -- it is. I like the idea of using them more than
fiddling with them, and therein lies the difference. I'm sure they can still be used pretty easily without the tagging and the stuff -- "I have the 'I'm A Loner, Dottie -- A Rebel...' Aspect, so....I'll spend a Fate Point to have this guy leave me the hell alone to do my job!" and like that.
I suspect that in actual practice some of this stuff (like Compelling) might play out more naturally than mechanically -- "Sure, you like her. And she's cute, and she likes you, and she has the plans. But there's something about you that keeps her away...'cause you're a Loner, Dottie! Ooooooh, BUUUURN!!" And like that.
QuoteTo be honest once you strip it down to just the skills it's a fairly basic rpg system - just like a lot of other games out there. It's why i thought it would appeal to a wide range of people though hopefully - those who like more emphasis on story and those who want just simple mechanics.
I noticed that, and that's why I have wanted the bells-and-whistles to make sense to me -- so I can value what's special about it, what's different.
[quote[in my games I've generally avoided using stunts and let people dream up their own if they wanted them, mainly because I've done most of my own playtests with absolute rpg beginners. [/quote]Yeah, I like that better than the "Stunt Ladder" thing where you have requirements for some of 'em.
Quotesome gm's and players get more in to compelling and tags, i've seen games with not one single compel or tag and it flowed fine.
I bet it did; I'm starting to get over my grumpiness and see how I might do that myself.
Quoteif you wanted to go down the hardcover narrative route you could just play with aspects and lose everything else.
That's interesting...hmmm. Kind of like
Over the Edge and
Risius, but...different. Only -- different,
how? Hmmm...
Quotei hear there's also a pretty nifty plot generating system in there somewhere ;-)
It's the best idea ever, in the universe, eternally, with a root beer on the side.
Okay, I get why it's 600 pages, then.
Thanks for the response.
phew....well finally you all should have got your copies of Starblazer if you pre-ordered by now and it's in the shops in the US from the week beginning July 13th (so if it isn't go buck your local store!)
I'm currently working on the Legends of Anglerre which uses all the art from the fantasy issues of Starblazer for a massive battle axe wielding fantasy version of FATE that will let you do everything from 1st level dnd style characters through to Exalted and mix the two - yep a peasant in an exalted setting who just happens to know the true name of the faerie queen...
We've got the usual goodness inside including a whole background generator for characters and something new called Future Aspects...ways to run a whole family, tons of reasons why you're looking for treasure, or other reasons to be out there doing stuff, castle sieges, massed battles that are easy to run, court intrigue and three special settings to choose from.
We've also got the story teller's screen coming out in August, followed by Mindjammer the massive transhuman space style setting, then a big campaign adventure...
Mine still hasn't arrived, but its probably stuck in the mail somewhere.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;311799Mine still hasn't arrived, but its probably stuck in the mail somewhere.
RPGPundit
should be with you anytime!
and folks if you've got time, we'd love your vote for Starblazer in the ENnies - yep that's right we're up for 3 awards...and if you feel like voting for Cubicle 7 as the publisher that would be a bonus of course...
http://www.ennie-awards.com/voting/ballot.asp
BEST RULES
- STARBLAZER ADVENTURES
BEST GAME
- STARBLAZER ADVENTURES
PRODUCT OF THE YEAR
- STARBLAZER ADVENTURES
FAN AWARD FOR BEST PUBLISHER
- CUBICLE 7
I purchased it on PDF and I love it. I might actually order the hardcover as well. It is 600 pages of awesome -- the feel and flavor of the game is fantastic, and well worth the price point.
It is interesting to me that FATE is such a light system overall, and yet spawns these enormous books, like Starblazer Adventures and Spirit of the Century. But that's not a criticism.
Oh, and
(http://www.ennie-awards.com/images/ennies_i_voted%20_banner_09.png)
Quote from: ticopelp;316357I purchased it on PDF and I love it. I might actually order the hardcover as well. It is 600 pages of awesome -- the feel and flavor of the game is fantastic, and well worth the price point.
It is interesting to me that FATE is such a light system overall, and yet spawns these enormous books, like Starblazer Adventures and Spirit of the Century. But that's not a criticism.
Oh, and
(http://www.ennie-awards.com/images/ennies_i_voted%20_banner_09.png)
thanks so much! Legends of Anglerre is the fantasy version using the artwork from the fantasy starblazer issues. It's going to be about 320 pages so we're really tightening things up! Still compatible so yes you can have fighter craft strafing fleet of galleys from which wizard throw fireballs upwards at the demons descending on them!
Quote from: S'mon;272065I'm gonna drop the Fate Points too. Old School, mate. :p
Seriously, the main thing I value in an RPG is you-are-there immersion. Metagame resources (FPs) and novelistic devices (Aspects) seriously detract from that in play. They may be great for author-stance story-now narrativist play, but I've learnt the hard way that's not what I want from an RPG.
This is why I've never bothered with FATE: to get it to where I would like it, I would have to drop half of the system, leaving only the skills, which in my opinion are the weakest part (A skill pyramid? Really?). At that point, I might as well be playing another game (and in this case, by that I mean Traveller).
Still no sign of my book... :(
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;316369Still no sign of my book... :(
RPGPundit
That's because I have it.
MUHAHAHAHAHAHA. :p
Seriously, doesn't it take forever to get anything down there?
It varies. Kenzer's books got here in under 2 weeks. Swashbucklers of the seven skies took 3 months, and the current record is Alpha Omega which took 6 months.
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