Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 26, 2022, 11:08:03 AM

Quote from: Pat on January 26, 2022, 11:04:30 AM
A +1 dagger can become very important if it's the only weapon you have that can hurt a gargoyle.

Then its more a Mcguffin then a reward.

Yeah, I always hated that type of mechanic--specially from a gameplay PoV. From a thematic aspect it might make sense when fighting ghosts or whatever, but from a gameplay PoV it just places me in a no-win scenario were I have to rely entirely on this specific item that may or may not exist (or at least be available to me) for me to even do anything against my opponent, even as I lay impotent and defenseless with it consistently pounding on me. It's boring AF and usually just turns PCs without the requisite magical weapon into spectators at best, helpless pincushions at worst.

But then if you DO have a weapon with the minimum "+" requirement, and so does everyone else in the group, then suddenly utter immunity (of massive resistance in the case of 3e damage resistances) completely disappears, and it's like that previously uber tough opponent no longer has any special resistances--At. All. There's NO middle ground: either YOU are screwed, or IT is. And it ALL banks on having this item you have no guarantee of even having, but might still be plentiful and "0" issue if your campaign has enough magic weapons floating around.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 26, 2022, 11:08:03 AM

Quote from: Pat on January 26, 2022, 11:04:30 AM
A +1 dagger can become very important if it's the only weapon you have that can hurt a gargoyle.

Then its more a Mcguffin then a reward.

If RPGs were pre-scriped stories, yes. But there's no guarantee you'll have a +1 weapon when you decided to take the steps down to a new level of the dungeon and woke up the guardian. It's up to you to assess the risks, and flee if needed. After all, gargoyles do quite a bit of damage, and a +1 dagger does very little. So even with that +1 weapon, you're probably going to get mauled before you take it down, unless you come up with a creative alternative.

Quote from: Pat on January 26, 2022, 12:00:51 PM
If RPGs were pre-scriped stories, yes.

Nope. Is a key to open a door "magical" or "exciting"? Its still a mcguffin, sandbox or not.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 26, 2022, 01:07:39 PM

Quote from: Pat on January 26, 2022, 12:00:51 PM
If RPGs were pre-scriped stories, yes.

Nope. Is a key to open a door "magical" or "exciting"? Its still a mcguffin, sandbox or not.

We're talking about a +1 dagger, not a door and a key.

Quote from: Pat on January 26, 2022, 01:27:06 PM
We're talking about a +1 dagger, not a door and a key.

All your points about encountering a gargoyle can be applied to a door with a requisite +1 key.

I don't hand out treasure on masse, but Id hate to be part of your games, with the way you treat rewards.

I like to play my games old school like Gygax with gobs of magic items.

Keep your +1 Dagger suckers, I got heaps.

   Buying magic items I think of as being a no.  Potions, or one use items (such as a glass ball filled with alchemical reagents that can explode similar to a fireball) I allow for extreme prices.  But something like a magic sword?  No way would one be for sale.  I run a campaign where magic can be a bit unpredictable and the ability to hold permanent enchantments is somewhat of an ancient/lost art.  I guess under different circumstances, this could be different, but I like something like an enchanted blade to be a pretty big deal...and I never have one in game without writing a run down of who it's last 3 owners were.   

Greetings!

Yeah, "Old School" definitely has diverse traditions. On one hand, you have low-magic, mud-covered peasants. On the other hand, you have great heroes decked out with uber-powerful magic items like Christmas Trees.

Old School modules were typically *swimming* in magic items.

I have always  enjoyed magic items. It's a fantasy game. That's what those lists in the DMG are for. if you aren't getting your hands on all those goodies your doing it wrong.

I have special Pawn Shops that deal in the occasional magic item. The *Vermillion Pawn* comes to mind. Yes, from White Dwarf Magazine, about 1988 or so.

As has been mentioned, Gary also played with gobs of magic items, too. Who wants fucking mundane items of everything? It's all fun.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

It should be contextual to your setting.

If your system has rules for making magic items, and magic-items exist in the world, the capacity to form a magic-item economy will exist on some level.

I keep magic rare and powerful. I think every generation of D&D player goes through their version of Monty Haul, and it's due to GM's not understanding how to feed the PC's without bloating their game up.

Buying a magic-item should be as easy as you want magic-items to proliferate in your game. I always remind new GM's - context context context. If you're in the capital of Melnibone' you're likely to find that rare merchant selling an enchanted item vs. Ye Old Magic Shoppe in the Village of Piglette within the Woods Poor Ass Bitches.

And all one has to do is ask yourself - How easy is it to make a "magic item"? If it's easy - then the world should reflect that. If not? The answer is the same thing.

I definitely like having some +1 stuff be treated as pretty minor magic that a skilled dwarf or elf smith can create and sell, albeit for a lot more than +0 stuff. The PCs in my Faerun campaign tend to acquire +1 weapons fairly quickly, found crafted or (rarely) bought. +2 and +3 stuff takes a lot longer. Currently the 8-PC level 5-6 party has one +2 item, a goliath greatsword. the 7-PC level 6-8 party has done a lot better with 4 +2 items and 2 +3 weapons: +2 scimitar of speed, +2 greatsword, two +2 shields, a +3 battle-axe, and a +3 dwarven thrower hammer. Pretty average by old AD&D standards but high for 5e D&D I think.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 26, 2022, 01:39:02 PM

Quote from: Pat on January 26, 2022, 01:27:06 PM
We're talking about a +1 dagger, not a door and a key.

All your points about encountering a gargoyle can be applied to a door with a requisite +1 key.

I don't hand out treasure on masse, but Id hate to be part of your games, with the way you treat rewards.

What the hell are you talking about?

Quote from: Pat on January 26, 2022, 07:15:41 PMWhat the hell are you talking about?

That a +1 sword that can kill theoretical gargoyls (that would have to be countered a different way normally) is as exciting as a +1 key that opens +1 requiring locks (that would have to be countered a different way normally). It doesn't really amplify your abilities all that much, or give you new ones to use outside of specific context. Just because in a sandbox your not FORCED into such encounters, doesn't make it any less of a mcguffin, and not a ability expanding reward.

For my games, no there are not magic shops. But there's always an underworld/black market/right price thing. For potions of healing, you can buy from temples, that sort of thing. So they're more available (I like my characters to live ).

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 26, 2022, 09:37:20 PM

Quote from: Pat on January 26, 2022, 07:15:41 PMWhat the hell are you talking about?

That a +1 sword that can kill theoretical gargoyls (that would have to be countered a different way normally) is as exciting as a +1 key that opens +1 requiring locks (that would have to be countered a different way normally). It doesn't really amplify your abilities all that much, or give you new ones to use outside of specific context. Just because in a sandbox your not FORCED into such encounters, doesn't make it any less of a mcguffin, and not a ability expanding reward.

What, do you want to give a +5 bonus? That's power inflation for the sake of power inflation. And it's not a MacGuffin, because a MacGuffin is a plot device used to drive the plot and has no purpose outside the plot... which sandbox games completely lack. It's not the right term to describe whatever you're upset about.

And what was that out of nowhere nonsense about not wanting to be part of my games because your internet telepathy deduced something I never said about how I hand out rewards?

Quote from: Pat on January 26, 2022, 10:25:49 PMWhat, do you want to give a +5 bonus?

If a weapon is supposed to be legendary enough to be worthy of the tons of money invested, or dangerous enough to warrant being locked away in a massive underground labyrinth, it better do something more then just +5% accuracy and maybe damage some gargoyles (unless your a mage at which point go ahead and damage it anyway).

+25% hit is also not impressive (and mathmatically annoying). Maybe it can cleanly slice through all metal and stone, divine for heretics, or command demons. Having such a artifact would come with the consequences of having things of such power. A consequential item feels consequential within the world, not just through arbitrary fiat.

QuoteAnd it's not a MacGuffin, because a MacGuffin is a plot device used to drive the plot and has no purpose outside the plot.

I feel this is very much playing semantics. 'Sandboxes lack a plot, therefore it cannot have mcguffins'.

Il agree that maybe Mcguffin by some literal term is not the best fit, but a reward that exists with largely no benefit except opening up some specific locks and no further proactive use of itsown, I consider a weak reward.

QuoteAnd what was that out of nowhere nonsense about not wanting to be part of my games because your internet telepathy deduced something I never said about how I hand out rewards?

That was unnecacarily snippy of me. I should not have made this a personal deal. Sorry.