So our OSE party lost its (8th level) cleric last night and was unable to bring her back. It happened towards the end of the adventure so they weren't really affected by it in terms of healing and what not, but now the characters want to buy potions of healing and possibly a couple other magic items for their upcoming adventures, which will be the "Saga of the Giants" series for BFRPG. My general policy is that potions and low level scrolls are pretty readily available, particularly in large cities, but more powerful items are both very rare and expensive. I still generally use the prices in the DMG as a baseline. So in the current situation, as the party will be starting in one of my campaign's larger cities, I have no problem with them buying potions of healing, though I'll put a cap on it. Still pondering the bag of holding they want, though the 25,000 gp price tag in the DMG seems fair enough, I suppose.
What about you? Do you let players buy magic items? Or do they have to earn (or steal) them the good old fashioned way?
Varies by campaign, and how generally stingy the campaign is with magic items, and of what level. Sometimes, very low-level items aren't even considered magic, and are available as much as the alchemist or other source can produce them, same as a sword or bow or food. I've gone the other way where only high-level caster can even make the items, and thus they are rare.
It also depends on how valuable something like a healing potion is in the game. I think the later editions of D&D make the healing potions readily available because healing is already so available elsewhere. In earlier games, healing is a real restraint. Of course, you can tweak any edition to move it more one way or the other.
I've also done it where anyone can buy a lot of potions--if you know a producer and are in the good graces of the church, city, etc. that controls them. That works well in a game with political factions. (Also encourages potion stealing in some cases.)
I pretty much do it like you, though I rarely have 25,000gp items available for purchase!
In my most generous campaign (5e) the PCs craft a lot of Uncommon gear, mostly +1 weapons and +1 shields. Harvested dragon corpses are a rich source of components for better/rarer stuff such as +1 studded leather, boots of the winterlands, and even dragonscale armour (slow and expensive). About the most powerful item crafted so far was when Greeba the half-orc smith (background advantage: "knows the Riddle of Steel") used an Elemental Fire Gem to craft a Flametongue sword, a Rare item per 5e DMG but a very powerful one. She loves that sword. ;D
NPCs tend to be sources of specific items, eg Valeron of Helix can craft cloaks of protection, cloaks of elvenkind, and +1 bows. Karg of Helix can craft various +1 weapons and +1 shields. But most crafting is done by PCs with relevant Proficiencies, eg Fraener the dwarf forge priest has smith's tools prof and makes weapons & armour, Nathia the goliath leathersmith makes boots and leather gear, Gorlock the Warlock has jewelry prof, he makes jewelry and made himself a blinged out Rod of the Pact Keeper.
Since we play entirely OSR games and use crits, the healing issue is a major deal. Our Hyperborea campaign a couple years ago went south when the party's shaman, who was the only real healer, died. The players decided to forge on without replacing her, though they did buy some healing potions. Didn't matter much as within a couple more adventures 4 of the remaining 5 PCs died. The one who lived joined another party but died in his first adventure with them, bequeathing his deadly mi-go pistol to the gnome illusionist....
So now this group is looking to buy a couple magic items and recruit a couple more high level PCs for their probable last great adventure. They've been without a thief as well for quite awhile and it's complicated things quite a bit. So they're looking to hire a high level thief and cleric. Luckily I found some old B/X characters from the 80s that I'll dust off for this, though I'm planning on making the next session entirely a city-bound roleplaying & background affair. Should be fun.
Typically no, not too much at low level at least. Most people would not part with things that labor intensive and precious unless they are getting a greater return. That said consumables have easier accessibility naturally. And it will never be an impossibility because producers would readily understand the value of cooperation and power projection.
So potions and scrolls might be sold, but they will need larger populations to supprt its commerce or local governance/producer favortism to part with their consumables stores.
For long term enchantments I prefer to make it an adventure, such as tapping the underworld or world of high cost dealerships. Selling or buying then becomes gaming content of its own, creating new opportunities to expand the world and generate branching content.
Greetings!
Indeed, Persimmon, I operate the magic item market much like you do. Potions, scrolls, +1 items and the like are generally available, especially in larger cities and towns.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
My setting is fairly magic heavy so I split magic items up into;
- consumables (almost always available in reasonable quantities; any population center of a thousand or more will have an alchemist who probably has half-a-dozen or so of most things in stock and can brew up larger quantities in a few days if someone places an order).
- minor items (for sale in cities; they're expensive but cities of tens of thousands will probably have 1-2 purveyors of such things... though not every minor item is probably available at once and custom orders might take a week or two).
- major items (a metropolis probably has a broker who has 1-2 specific items and could probably procure a specific item in a few months for an extreme markup, but you'll need someone to make proper introductions as they don't have a storefront. Alternately there are master artisans who could craft major items IF you can find both the enchantment rituals and rare components needed to create one... more likely you'll find one amidst the ruins of the magitech utopia that collapsed in the Cataclysm).
- artifacts (artifacts are beyond the abilities of any in the present age to produce so you're going to need a quest to locate one).
I'm always using a low fantasy setting, so magic and those who use it are rare and secretive. No magic shops at all. The only way to get magic items is to find them and take them from the previous owner.
Even back in the day, when I used the default high fantasy settings, I still never allowed players to purchase magic items. That is probably a bias from my reading of fantasy literature. None of the novels that ignited my passion for fantasy had heroes buying a magic item. They either found it or were given it as a reward or family heirloom.
Nothing takes the magic out of magic like a 499.99 gp price sticker.
In most of my games you can't walk into a shop and buy a suit of armour let alone a magic one. I guess it depends, I like Rolemaster and GURPS and they both have very cut and dried costs associated with purchasing magic. But I tend to run with the idea that you have to commission the thing and then wait for it to be made. That said I don't hand out a lot of cash and the magical rewards are tied to adventuring not shopping. Fantasy Hero first edition's essays on GMing spoiled me for D&D.
It's kind of hard for me to say with a straight face that magic items are rare and wonderous when they're so ubiquitous and generic. Even Dungeon Crawl Classics, which urges the Game Master to make magic items wonderous and unique, has a generic +1 weapon in it's first module.
So, what to do with those wonderous and unique +1 swords that get replaced with a +2 sword? The character can hand it down to a hireling, or keep it as a memento, but what if they do want to sell it? Who buys it? What price will they get for it? Which brings up the question of whether they can buy magic items...
This was a roundabout way of saying "depends" for me. If I'm striving for magic items to be more rare and wonderful, i'll probably not have magic vendors. For a typical D&D campaign, I'll likely have a few places where some magic items can be bought, and if I'm running a setting where magic is common, I'll have magic vendors in towns selling low level stuff.
I think everyone would agree that artifact grade items should not be bought and sold like common items.
I want magic to be part of the game. I don't want magic to be "The" game.
I dislike the notion of magic items being for sale. Maybe some minor consumable items, maybe.
Magic items should be very rare and wondrous. At best I'd allow low level healing potions at a apothecary.
But I only every play low fantasy stuff. So, the idea that one could have a bag of holding is just too over the top. If such an item existed it would never be for sale. The holder of the magic object would have to be eliminated then the player would have to steal it from their cold corpse.
And the idea, that a character could actually have 25,000gp doesn't appeal to me either. The only people that could conceivably have that type of cash would be Kings and only the richest nobles, and even then, it would probably be tied up in assets as opposed to that much physical coin existing.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on January 23, 2022, 08:21:16 AM
Magic items should be very rare and wondrous. At best I'd allow low level healing potions at a apothecary.
But I only every play low fantasy stuff. So, the idea that one could have a bag of holding is just too over the top. If such an item existed it would never be for sale. The holder of the magic object would have to be eliminated then the player would have to steal it from their cold corpse.
And the idea, that a character could actually have 25,000gp doesn't appeal to me either. The only people that could conceivably have that type of cash would be Kings and only the richest nobles, and even then, it would probably be tied up in assets as opposed to that much physical coin existing.
Well, the BECMI game for sure is based on PCs accumulating huge amounts of wealth since they have the detailed rules and costs for stronghold construction. So having that kind of cash by name level is expected. In the game in question, which is an OSE campaign, the players are all around 8th level and have about 30,000 gp or so in total each in coins, gems, and jewelry. The PCs have maybe 4-5 magic items each total, including weapons & armor. It hasn't been especially "Monty Haul," but the classic published modules have fair amounts of treasure and my own games are sort of middle of the road. The party actually missed the biggest treasure hauls in the last adventure due to not having a thief. So the campaign here isn't like Conan, where he's constantly broke. And I think that assumption is in line with the expected trajectory though obviously there will be vast differences in individual campaigns. Of course the gp for xp model, which we use, pretty much drives that style of play, especially once you hit the mid levels.
Quote from: Persimmon on January 23, 2022, 09:33:26 AM
Well, the BECMI game for sure is based on PCs accumulating huge amounts of wealth since they have the detailed rules and costs for stronghold construction. So having that kind of cash by name level is expected..
Oh yeah, for sure... But I prefer a more of a WFRP 1e approach. Which wouldn't be that far from Lamentations of the Flame princess' style.
I've never quite squared this circle. On the one hand, I like the serendipity of found magic items. OTOH, high level characters end up with obscene amounts of gold, and lots of leftover +1 swords. With all that excess, why wouldn't there be trade in magic items? Even if we assume that the creation of magic items is a lost art, at least in the big cities +1 swords should be available for sale. They're still not unique one-off items held by collectors or dynasties.
Erasing the magical economy would require turning every magic item into an artifact. Not necessarily in terms of power, but terms of rarity and uniqueness.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on January 23, 2022, 11:21:31 AM
Quote from: Persimmon on January 23, 2022, 09:33:26 AM
Well, the BECMI game for sure is based on PCs accumulating huge amounts of wealth since they have the detailed rules and costs for stronghold construction. So having that kind of cash by name level is expected..
Oh yeah, for sure... But I prefer a more of a WFRP 1e approach. Which wouldn't be that far from Lamentations of the Flame princess' style.
Yep; the WFRP approach and tone is very different. And I do like it as well. But that's not what we're doing in this current game. I have done campaigns in that style, which I situate in a different time period in my campaign world's history to account for the different feel. And I used to play a fair bit of WHFRP 2e, but haven't pulled the trigger on the new edition because I've got too many other things already and not enough time to play.
As an addendum, one thing I've considered is improving non-magical items. For instance, fine or very fine swords might cost astronomically more, and provide a +1 or +2 or even a +3 to hit and/or damage. This is cosmetic to some degree, because it's essentially taking the mechanics of a +1 sword, and saying it's mundane. And it would require rethinking creatures that can only be hit by magical weapons. But it could reserve magic for the true exceptions.
Spirits might be hurt by cold iron or silver, requiring backup weapons that might be inferior to normal weapons, and this would as true at 14th level as at 1st. Magic-users would be de-emphasized a bit, since mundane but excellent smiths could make exceptional weapons and armor, and seeking out and befriending such smiths could be a plot driver. Elvish weapons might be mundane, yet have certain properties, like striking the noncorporeal undead, and some legendary and lost human cultures might be similar (think elvish and Numenorean blades from LotR, and their effectiveness against wights and Nazgul). Since the Expert rules explicitly deal with the exceptional nature of dwarf and gnome smiths, maybe their weapons and armor are uinque. Potions could be mostly herbal rather than magical, and widely available. Similar with certain other magic items with less ostentatious effects, like elven cloaks and boots. Maybe scrolls as well. But magic items that have explicitly magical powers might require wizards, and be unique in certain ways. This works well with intelligent swords -- all truly magical swords might have their own will. This could even be extended to other items, making them dual-edged. This would spread out the expertise; instead of seeking out wizards for answers to all magical items, you might seek out an elvish weaver to learn of the properties of their cloaks, or an alchemist to learn about reagents that cause transmutations.
Generally I am cool with buying one-time-use items like scrolls and potions, and much more stingy on multi-use items. IF I allow the purchase of multi-use items it's usually more utility things like bags of holding. Now if a player wants to make a mundane item into a magic item, like a Glaive into a +1 Glaive because they have not been able to find a magical polearm for quite some time, I will usually work with them to make arrangements to do that. But it might involve a quest for some ingredients, or to get to a particular mage who will enchant it, or to quest to get another item for the mage in exchange.
My own .02 on this one:
Potions and scrolls can be obtained in small quantities (and great expense) from alchemists and high level wizards and such located in large towns. It's never as easy as walking into a store and breaking out a bag of gold, except maybe for some healing salves or potions. Anything else is going to cost you more than just money. On more than on occasion, I've used this sort of 'shopping' as an adventure hook by itself. Usually a quest to perform some task for the locals, like getting rid of the ankheg nest plaguing the local farmers, or planting damning documentation on a local ruler's retainers, or some such. Depends on what is going on in the campaign.
All other magical items are rare, wondrous, and to a degree, 'priceless' in that their owners won't agree to sell under any circumstances. These have to be sought out in the dungeons and other dark places of the world. What a sage or high level mage or ruler might have is a map, or some knowledge, or some such about where a desired item might be found (a dragon hoard, for instance), that are willing to part with for a high price or a cut of the loot.
Quote from: Pat on January 23, 2022, 12:17:50 PM
I've never quite squared this circle. On the one hand, I like the serendipity of found magic items. OTOH, high level characters end up with obscene amounts of gold, and lots of leftover +1 swords. With all that excess, why wouldn't there be trade in magic items? Even if we assume that the creation of magic items is a lost art, at least in the big cities +1 swords should be available for sale. They're still not unique one-off items held by collectors or dynasties.
Erasing the magical economy would require turning every magic item into an artifact. Not necessarily in terms of power, but terms of rarity and uniqueness.
One idea I lifted from Earthdawn is leveling items. A sword may be +1 in the hands of a 1st level character, but becomes a +2 sword when wielded by a 5th level character, and maybe get a special ability or two along the way.
If every item levels, then you still have the problem of excess items. But a few leveling items means that a character can select a "signature" item and have it be useful over their adventuring career. And the GM can place fewer items in their adventures.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on January 23, 2022, 01:35:40 PM
Quote from: Pat on January 23, 2022, 12:17:50 PM
I've never quite squared this circle. On the one hand, I like the serendipity of found magic items. OTOH, high level characters end up with obscene amounts of gold, and lots of leftover +1 swords. With all that excess, why wouldn't there be trade in magic items? Even if we assume that the creation of magic items is a lost art, at least in the big cities +1 swords should be available for sale. They're still not unique one-off items held by collectors or dynasties.
Erasing the magical economy would require turning every magic item into an artifact. Not necessarily in terms of power, but terms of rarity and uniqueness.
One idea I lifted from Earthdawn is leveling items. A sword may be +1 in the hands of a 1st level character, but becomes a +2 sword when wielded by a 5th level character, and maybe get a special ability or two along the way.
If every item levels, then you still have the problem of excess items. But a few leveling items means that a character can select a "signature" item and have it be useful over their adventuring career. And the GM can place fewer items in their adventures.
Weapons of Legacy from 3.X was similar.
You're right that you can still end up with a basket of magic items. And another problem is you lose the serendipity, if all of a magic item's power ups are known in advance and just need to be unlocked. An interesting compromise might be to have items with a certain nature, but that nature will become expressed in different ways based on their wielder. So if your sword is shadow-themed, one user might be able to become a living shadow, another might be able to summon shadows, and a third might walk through shadows. This isn't serendipitous in the randomly rolled sense, but it could be based on the PC's personality or other aspects of their nature, or it could be quest based, with different ways of unlocking the next ability leading to different paths.
Quote from: Pat on January 23, 2022, 12:54:36 PM
As an addendum, one thing I've considered is improving non-magical items. For instance, fine or very fine swords might cost astronomically more, and provide a +1 or +2 or even a +3 to hit and/or damage. This is cosmetic to some degree, because it's essentially taking the mechanics of a +1 sword, and saying it's mundane. And it would require rethinking creatures that can only be hit by magical weapons. But it could reserve magic for the true exceptions.
Spirits might be hurt by cold iron or silver, requiring backup weapons that might be inferior to normal weapons, and this would as true at 14th level as at 1st. Magic-users would be de-emphasized a bit, since mundane but excellent smiths could make exceptional weapons and armor, and seeking out and befriending such smiths could be a plot driver. Elvish weapons might be mundane, yet have certain properties, like striking the noncorporeal undead, and some legendary and lost human cultures might be similar (think elvish and Numenorean blades from LotR, and their effectiveness against wights and Nazgul). Since the Expert rules explicitly deal with the exceptional nature of dwarf and gnome smiths, maybe their weapons and armor are uinque. Potions could be mostly herbal rather than magical, and widely available. Similar with certain other magic items with less ostentatious effects, like elven cloaks and boots. Maybe scrolls as well. But magic items that have explicitly magical powers might require wizards, and be unique in certain ways. This works well with intelligent swords -- all truly magical swords might have their own will. This could even be extended to other items, making them dual-edged. This would spread out the expertise; instead of seeking out wizards for answers to all magical items, you might seek out an elvish weaver to learn of the properties of their cloaks, or an alchemist to learn about reagents that cause transmutations.
For my current campaign, I'm doing something similar. My sop to keeping it "magical" is that things like the +1 weapons are crafted but the process itself requires considerable magic and specific expertise that is closely guarded. The crafter doesn't need to be a spell caster necessarily but they do need to know some "crafting magic" that is peculiar to the thing they are making. Elves making elven cloaks and boots and dwarven smiths was very much a part of that idea. Theoretically, a dedicated player could learn to make a few things, but there is no generic ability for wizards to make any old item a player might want.
That's my compromise for keeping it somewhat rare while still acknowledging that someone made all those +1 weapons that are found.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on January 23, 2022, 02:20:48 PM
Quote from: Pat on January 23, 2022, 12:54:36 PM
As an addendum, one thing I've considered is improving non-magical items. For instance, fine or very fine swords might cost astronomically more, and provide a +1 or +2 or even a +3 to hit and/or damage. This is cosmetic to some degree, because it's essentially taking the mechanics of a +1 sword, and saying it's mundane. And it would require rethinking creatures that can only be hit by magical weapons. But it could reserve magic for the true exceptions.
Spirits might be hurt by cold iron or silver, requiring backup weapons that might be inferior to normal weapons, and this would as true at 14th level as at 1st. Magic-users would be de-emphasized a bit, since mundane but excellent smiths could make exceptional weapons and armor, and seeking out and befriending such smiths could be a plot driver. Elvish weapons might be mundane, yet have certain properties, like striking the noncorporeal undead, and some legendary and lost human cultures might be similar (think elvish and Numenorean blades from LotR, and their effectiveness against wights and Nazgul). Since the Expert rules explicitly deal with the exceptional nature of dwarf and gnome smiths, maybe their weapons and armor are uinque. Potions could be mostly herbal rather than magical, and widely available. Similar with certain other magic items with less ostentatious effects, like elven cloaks and boots. Maybe scrolls as well. But magic items that have explicitly magical powers might require wizards, and be unique in certain ways. This works well with intelligent swords -- all truly magical swords might have their own will. This could even be extended to other items, making them dual-edged. This would spread out the expertise; instead of seeking out wizards for answers to all magical items, you might seek out an elvish weaver to learn of the properties of their cloaks, or an alchemist to learn about reagents that cause transmutations.
For my current campaign, I'm doing something similar. My sop to keeping it "magical" is that things like the +1 weapons are crafted but the process itself requires considerable magic and specific expertise that is closely guarded. The crafter doesn't need to be a spell caster necessarily but they do need to know some "crafting magic" that is peculiar to the thing they are making. Elves making elven cloaks and boots and dwarven smiths was very much a part of that idea. Theoretically, a dedicated player could learn to make a few things, but there is no generic ability for wizards to make any old item a player might want.
That's my compromise for keeping it somewhat rare while still acknowledging that someone made all those +1 weapons that are found.
The idea that there's this clear boundary between the normal world and magic is a modern conceit. After all, medieval people believed smiths sung spells into their work, and we're not talking about exceptional smiths. It's just how it worked. It wasn't only about alloys and temper, there was also something numinous where craft melded into mystery and wonder.
I think a lot of the problem is that modern people think of magic as something extra. There's the world, which by default is normal and perfectly mundane, and magic is this gloss over the top, or a set of cheat codes. I prefer to treat magic as something essential. It's not something extra, it's how things work. Magic is everywhere and in all things, and is part of everyday life.
This manifests in how D&D has treated magic-users and magic items. Only magic-users can create magic items, right? Except... why? Why can't a great smith craft the greatest sword of all time, or an elf weave a cloak so perfectly that it blends in with stone? There's this association with blatant spellcasting, and any magic at all.
I like the idea that there's magic in the blade of a sword, even the less exceptional ones. It may not be much magic, but it's there. And that means that an exceptional smith can make a sword of high pussiance, with no involvement from wizards at all.
For scarcity, I think it makes sense to assume there really are people who are exceptional at crafts. The BECMI weapon mastery system introduced the idea of basic, skilled, expert, master, and grandmaster tiers for weapon proficiency. A similar concept could be introduced for crafts. A basic smith might make a basic sword, if you want a +1 blade, you might need to find an exceptional smith. A +2 sword might require a real master. And a +3 blade might require someone of legendary skill and talent. The same could apply to potions -- simple healing philters might be the province of random travelers or good folk, while a potion of giant strength might require more skill.
That turns magic items into an exercise in roleplaying. There might be only one person capable of making +3 swords in all the land, and if you piss him off, no swords for you. In general, you have to seek out these sources, and over time develop contacts and earn favors.
Quote from: Persimmon on January 22, 2022, 10:54:58 AM
So our OSE party lost its (8th level) cleric last night and was unable to bring her back. It happened towards the end of the adventure so they weren't really affected by it in terms of healing and what not, but now the characters want to buy potions of healing and possibly a couple other magic items for their upcoming adventures, which will be the "Saga of the Giants" series for BFRPG. My general policy is that potions and low level scrolls are pretty readily available, particularly in large cities, but more powerful items are both very rare and expensive. I still generally use the prices in the DMG as a baseline. So in the current situation, as the party will be starting in one of my campaign's larger cities, I have no problem with them buying potions of healing, though I'll put a cap on it. Still pondering the bag of holding they want, though the 25,000 gp price tag in the DMG seems fair enough, I suppose.
What about you? Do you let players buy magic items? Or do they have to earn (or steal) them the good old fashioned way?
How did the party get to level 8 without picking up potions of healing at the very least?
Even as random loot. Seems like a rookie mistake.
[/quote]
How did the party get to level 8 without picking up potions of healing at the very least?
Even as random loot. Seems like a rookie mistake.
[/quote]
They were used up. And the cleric had a double-strength staff of healing that served fairly well for routine healing. But when she died, there was no one who could use it, as it is a "cleric-only" item. And ironically, the party breezed through most of the adventure, taking minimal damage. It was right before the end when the monstrous centipede struck the killing blow. No one else was lost in this adventure but they know the next one will require the services of a cleric. But they're also buying some healing potions, or at least hoping to.
But this group is use to losing party members. They started with 12 PCs and only 7 are still alive from that cohort.
I've toyed with the idea of making magic potions addictive and with diminishing effects if used more than once a day. Otherwise why wouldn't you just stock up on potions at the earliest opportunity.
Buying magical items has always struck me as wrong. If magical items are common enough that they can be mass-produced or sold using gold, they aren't magical anymore. Magic items should always be at-best items of barter, favors, or quest rewards.
This is somewhat distinct from whether an item should have a mechanical (in a game-design sense) value associated with it.
Quote from: Pat on January 23, 2022, 03:22:48 PM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on January 23, 2022, 02:20:48 PM
Quote from: Pat on January 23, 2022, 12:54:36 PM
As an addendum, one thing I've considered is improving non-magical items. For instance, fine or very fine swords might cost astronomically more, and provide a +1 or +2 or even a +3 to hit and/or damage. This is cosmetic to some degree, because it's essentially taking the mechanics of a +1 sword, and saying it's mundane. And it would require rethinking creatures that can only be hit by magical weapons. But it could reserve magic for the true exceptions.
Spirits might be hurt by cold iron or silver, requiring backup weapons that might be inferior to normal weapons, and this would as true at 14th level as at 1st. Magic-users would be de-emphasized a bit, since mundane but excellent smiths could make exceptional weapons and armor, and seeking out and befriending such smiths could be a plot driver. Elvish weapons might be mundane, yet have certain properties, like striking the noncorporeal undead, and some legendary and lost human cultures might be similar (think elvish and Numenorean blades from LotR, and their effectiveness against wights and Nazgul). Since the Expert rules explicitly deal with the exceptional nature of dwarf and gnome smiths, maybe their weapons and armor are uinque. Potions could be mostly herbal rather than magical, and widely available. Similar with certain other magic items with less ostentatious effects, like elven cloaks and boots. Maybe scrolls as well. But magic items that have explicitly magical powers might require wizards, and be unique in certain ways. This works well with intelligent swords -- all truly magical swords might have their own will. This could even be extended to other items, making them dual-edged. This would spread out the expertise; instead of seeking out wizards for answers to all magical items, you might seek out an elvish weaver to learn of the properties of their cloaks, or an alchemist to learn about reagents that cause transmutations.
For my current campaign, I'm doing something similar. My sop to keeping it "magical" is that things like the +1 weapons are crafted but the process itself requires considerable magic and specific expertise that is closely guarded. The crafter doesn't need to be a spell caster necessarily but they do need to know some "crafting magic" that is peculiar to the thing they are making. Elves making elven cloaks and boots and dwarven smiths was very much a part of that idea. Theoretically, a dedicated player could learn to make a few things, but there is no generic ability for wizards to make any old item a player might want.
That's my compromise for keeping it somewhat rare while still acknowledging that someone made all those +1 weapons that are found.
The idea that there's this clear boundary between the normal world and magic is a modern conceit. After all, medieval people believed smiths sung spells into their work, and we're not talking about exceptional smiths. It's just how it worked. It wasn't only about alloys and temper, there was also something numinous where craft melded into mystery and wonder.
I think a lot of the problem is that modern people think of magic as something extra. There's the world, which by default is normal and perfectly mundane, and magic is this gloss over the top, or a set of cheat codes. I prefer to treat magic as something essential. It's not something extra, it's how things work. Magic is everywhere and in all things, and is part of everyday life.
This manifests in how D&D has treated magic-users and magic items. Only magic-users can create magic items, right? Except... why? Why can't a great smith craft the greatest sword of all time, or an elf weave a cloak so perfectly that it blends in with stone? There's this association with blatant spellcasting, and any magic at all.
I like the idea that there's magic in the blade of a sword, even the less exceptional ones. It may not be much magic, but it's there. And that means that an exceptional smith can make a sword of high pussiance, with no involvement from wizards at all.
For scarcity, I think it makes sense to assume there really are people who are exceptional at crafts. The BECMI weapon mastery system introduced the idea of basic, skilled, expert, master, and grandmaster tiers for weapon proficiency. A similar concept could be introduced for crafts. A basic smith might make a basic sword, if you want a +1 blade, you might need to find an exceptional smith. A +2 sword might require a real master. And a +3 blade might require someone of legendary skill and talent. The same could apply to potions -- simple healing philters might be the province of random travelers or good folk, while a potion of giant strength might require more skill.
That turns magic items into an exercise in roleplaying. There might be only one person capable of making +3 swords in all the land, and if you piss him off, no swords for you. In general, you have to seek out these sources, and over time develop contacts and earn favors.
Yes, this is how I generally do it, it works well for most settings. The rare exceptions being Modernist swords & sorcery that treats Magic as Un-Natural. There, maybe Conan's Atlantean sword isn't actually 'magic', it's just a really really good sword. In a more typical setting that's a distinction without a difference.
It all depends on the setting if it is high magic with plentiful ways to build or create magic weapons then they are easier to get. Especially if they are the usual generic magic items. If they are named weapons or some of my own creations then they are harder to buy and come by.
DMs forget that higher level characters have access to more money, resources and abilites to create weapons armor etc. Otherwise what is the point of leveling so that a 13th level character is still having to do mother/father may I. I don't mind from levels 1-10. I'm not going to just ignore what the players can do either.
Now if it is low level magic, items are hard to come by then definitely harder to find,buy and make. Though at the same time I make sure not to throw impossible odds at the character or continual monsters that require magic to hit. They are adventures and playing dungeons and dragons. they should not have to run away from every encounter because some DMs are too stingy and cheap with resources.
My stance on this has evolved. I used to make potions and the like available for purchase but found it unsatisfying. I like magic to mysterious and unique, not something one finds at the local Walmart. I now have occasional magic shops, but the few items with actual magic are mostly are mostly curiosities rather equipment or supplies, such as an enchanted shrunken head that will speak with you or two coins that always exert a slight force towards each other. I do allow magic items to be commissioned, but doing so can be an adventure in itself. This demands certain changes in the game though. If the players are used to having healing potions available then something needs to take the place of those healing potions, perhaps a physician skill or redesigning the adventures so less damage is done.
No magic shops in my campaign. I do allow the PCs to commission the creation of magic items, but they have to find someone to do the work, provide the materials needed, and pay a crap-ton of coin. So far the closest the PCs have gotten is a rumor of a dwarf master smith that could potentially craft a magic shield. Another PC has dumped all of his funds into getting a suit of (evil) enchanted armor purged of its evil. Unfortunately for the PC, the purge was not 100% successful. Once the PC dons the armor, the evil spirit in the armor will enter the PC (picture "Harvey" and John Creighton in Farscape).
YMMV.
As has been noted, it depends on the setting. Eberron is probably the go-to for buying common magical items and consumables at the equivalent of the 7-11.
Long ago, I did have a campaign with a magic shop--an inter-dimensional magic shop that moved constantly, or at least it's multiple store-fronts did. It was an adventure to get to one of those store fronts, where instead of fighting monsters to steal their treasure you had to negotiate with some of the most skilled traders. Usually, getting something magic meant trading something magic. Since the store moved, you couldn't just go back to it whenever you wanted, and not infrequently it appeared in remote places, meaning a quest and divination and fighting monsters just to find it.
A vague "it depends", but in practice it becomes quite easy...
- In Westeros or Middle-earth, you can't, period. same for Dark Sun.
- In Eberron or Ravnica, of course you can. Same for planescape.
- "Baseline D&D"... well, most published stuff is in Forgotten Realms, which includes very high fantasy... so yeah, I can see some magic items being for sale (but not powerful artifacts etc.).
I found commissioning a good compromise in some of my campaigns, Mishihari. It becomes an adventure unto itself because good relations toward the manufacturer and components have to be gathered. It is like an almost self-writing side quest.
Quote from: Opaopajr on January 24, 2022, 12:34:30 PM
I found commissioning a good compromise in some of my campaigns, Mishihari. It becomes an adventure unto itself because good relations toward the manufacturer and components have to be gathered. It is like an almost self-writing side quest.
A self-writing side quest that is driven, for the most part, by the desires of the PC rather than the DM. While the DM can still put magic items into the game, commissioning lets the magic items be (to the extent they can find components and a fabricator, and have enough coin) what the PCs want them to be.
YMMV.
Quote from: dkabq on January 24, 2022, 12:48:25 PM
Quote from: Opaopajr on January 24, 2022, 12:34:30 PM
I found commissioning a good compromise in some of my campaigns, Mishihari. It becomes an adventure unto itself because good relations toward the manufacturer and components have to be gathered. It is like an almost self-writing side quest.
A self-writing side quest that is driven, for the most part, by the desires of the PC rather than the DM. While the DM can still put magic items into the game, commissioning lets the magic items be (to the extent they can find components and a fabricator, and have enough coin) what the PCs want them to be.
YMMV.
I always thought a good set of rules for what happens in between adventures would help. I'm thinking along the lines of Traveller's lifepaths (or Pendragon), where the player makes concrete choices, rolls, and there are specific results. The 4 year enlistments of Traveller wouldn't work, but a season (3 months) might be a good approach. This would allow downtime to be productive, whether someone decides to build a network of connections (an explicit favor system is assumed), seeks out adventure (minor benefits compared to a DM-run adventure), develops a business, builds a fortress, clears an area, trains with a master (borrowing from the weapon mastery system), creates a magic item, hear rumors, seek out components, or the like. This would also be the time required for prolonged healing, or developing certain skills. There would still be the serendipity of finding a new magic item in a dungeon, but you'd also have a structured way to develop a PC on your own. The goal would be to integrate masters and training, magic item creation and components, social networks, and the "end game" stuff with adventures.
Quote from: Pat on January 24, 2022, 05:29:13 PM
Quote from: dkabq on January 24, 2022, 12:48:25 PM
Quote from: Opaopajr on January 24, 2022, 12:34:30 PM
I found commissioning a good compromise in some of my campaigns, Mishihari. It becomes an adventure unto itself because good relations toward the manufacturer and components have to be gathered. It is like an almost self-writing side quest.
A self-writing side quest that is driven, for the most part, by the desires of the PC rather than the DM. While the DM can still put magic items into the game, commissioning lets the magic items be (to the extent they can find components and a fabricator, and have enough coin) what the PCs want them to be.
YMMV.
I always thought a good set of rules for what happens in between adventures would help. I'm thinking along the lines of Traveller's lifepaths (or Pendragon), where the player makes concrete choices, rolls, and there are specific results. The 4 year enlistments of Traveller wouldn't work, but a season (3 months) might be a good approach. This would allow downtime to be productive, whether someone decides to build a network of connections (an explicit favor system is assumed), seeks out adventure (minor benefits compared to a DM-run adventure), develops a business, builds a fortress, clears an area, trains with a master (borrowing from the weapon mastery system), creates a magic item, hear rumors, seek out components, or the like. This would also be the time required for prolonged healing, or developing certain skills. There would still be the serendipity of finding a new magic item in a dungeon, but you'd also have a structured way to develop a PC on your own. The goal would be to integrate masters and training, magic item creation and components, social networks, and the "end game" stuff with adventures.
Several newer games, like Conan & TOR, have such things. The rules in Conan are better than those in TOR in my opinion, but overall I find both those rule sets problematic.
Quote from: Persimmon on January 24, 2022, 05:33:22 PM
Quote from: Pat on January 24, 2022, 05:29:13 PM
Quote from: dkabq on January 24, 2022, 12:48:25 PM
Quote from: Opaopajr on January 24, 2022, 12:34:30 PM
I found commissioning a good compromise in some of my campaigns, Mishihari. It becomes an adventure unto itself because good relations toward the manufacturer and components have to be gathered. It is like an almost self-writing side quest.
A self-writing side quest that is driven, for the most part, by the desires of the PC rather than the DM. While the DM can still put magic items into the game, commissioning lets the magic items be (to the extent they can find components and a fabricator, and have enough coin) what the PCs want them to be.
YMMV.
I always thought a good set of rules for what happens in between adventures would help. I'm thinking along the lines of Traveller's lifepaths (or Pendragon), where the player makes concrete choices, rolls, and there are specific results. The 4 year enlistments of Traveller wouldn't work, but a season (3 months) might be a good approach. This would allow downtime to be productive, whether someone decides to build a network of connections (an explicit favor system is assumed), seeks out adventure (minor benefits compared to a DM-run adventure), develops a business, builds a fortress, clears an area, trains with a master (borrowing from the weapon mastery system), creates a magic item, hear rumors, seek out components, or the like. This would also be the time required for prolonged healing, or developing certain skills. There would still be the serendipity of finding a new magic item in a dungeon, but you'd also have a structured way to develop a PC on your own. The goal would be to integrate masters and training, magic item creation and components, social networks, and the "end game" stuff with adventures.
Several newer games, like Conan & TOR, have such things. The rules in Conan are better than those in TOR in my opinion, but overall I find both those rule sets problematic.
I'm not familiar with either of those. What did you find "problematic"? I'm guessing it's not that they're systematically racist, sexist, or something else-ist.
I've also heard that Beyond the Wall might have something in the same vague vicinity.
Quote from: Pat on January 24, 2022, 05:29:13 PM
Quote from: dkabq on January 24, 2022, 12:48:25 PM
Quote from: Opaopajr on January 24, 2022, 12:34:30 PM
I found commissioning a good compromise in some of my campaigns, Mishihari. It becomes an adventure unto itself because good relations toward the manufacturer and components have to be gathered. It is like an almost self-writing side quest.
A self-writing side quest that is driven, for the most part, by the desires of the PC rather than the DM. While the DM can still put magic items into the game, commissioning lets the magic items be (to the extent they can find components and a fabricator, and have enough coin) what the PCs want them to be.
YMMV.
I always thought a good set of rules for what happens in between adventures would help. I'm thinking along the lines of Traveller's lifepaths (or Pendragon), where the player makes concrete choices, rolls, and there are specific results. The 4 year enlistments of Traveller wouldn't work, but a season (3 months) might be a good approach. This would allow downtime to be productive, whether someone decides to build a network of connections (an explicit favor system is assumed), seeks out adventure (minor benefits compared to a DM-run adventure), develops a business, builds a fortress, clears an area, trains with a master (borrowing from the weapon mastery system), creates a magic item, hear rumors, seek out components, or the like. This would also be the time required for prolonged healing, or developing certain skills. There would still be the serendipity of finding a new magic item in a dungeon, but you'd also have a structured way to develop a PC on your own.
I do that, but ad hoc/improvised. I also leave it up to the player the degree that they wish to engage. I have one player that is figuring out the CSIO bureaucracy. At one point, he kidnapped a bureaucrat to get information and to intimidate him. Another PC, in the course of visiting upscale establishments (looking to make connections and spy on the upper crust) ended up becoming a minor celebrity due to his dancing skills.
All of this is done outside our normal game sessions via Discord.
Also, I periodically allow the PCs to roll on Carousing tables. One PC (already a pig wrestler of some renown in the CSIO) got turned into a pig by a witch. That led to the pig-PC and the one other PC that could understand him fixing the pig wrestling matches to clean up on the betting.
That said, I do agree that a set of rules would be nice.
Quote from: Pat on January 24, 2022, 05:29:13 PMI always thought a good set of rules for what happens in between adventures would help.
One of the IMO big issues with D&D that I've been running my head into again and again over the years is the fact that there is no concrete temporal resolution outside of combat.
Most editions will talk about how a torch burns for "1 hour," or what have you, but that doesn't really
mean anything in-fiction, because we don't (typically) track hours. We might track days, if we're lucky, but only in a vague and roundabout sense. The end result there usually seems to be that because there aren't mechanics tied to it, we don't really think about it - or if we do, it devolves into a lot of mother-may-I style of play, which isn't terribly satisfying.
Having functional game systems that players can interact with outside of adventures, like commissioning magic items and the like, is doable without a temporal framework for them to happen in, but I think having a much firmer temporal structure and more actual rules for those sorts of things would, y'know, encourage them to happen.
Quote from: Pat on January 24, 2022, 05:40:20 PM
Quote from: Persimmon on January 24, 2022, 05:33:22 PM
Quote from: Pat on January 24, 2022, 05:29:13 PM
Quote from: dkabq on January 24, 2022, 12:48:25 PM
Quote from: Opaopajr on January 24, 2022, 12:34:30 PM
I found commissioning a good compromise in some of my campaigns, Mishihari. It becomes an adventure unto itself because good relations toward the manufacturer and components have to be gathered. It is like an almost self-writing side quest.
A self-writing side quest that is driven, for the most part, by the desires of the PC rather than the DM. While the DM can still put magic items into the game, commissioning lets the magic items be (to the extent they can find components and a fabricator, and have enough coin) what the PCs want them to be.
YMMV.
I always thought a good set of rules for what happens in between adventures would help. I'm thinking along the lines of Traveller's lifepaths (or Pendragon), where the player makes concrete choices, rolls, and there are specific results. The 4 year enlistments of Traveller wouldn't work, but a season (3 months) might be a good approach. This would allow downtime to be productive, whether someone decides to build a network of connections (an explicit favor system is assumed), seeks out adventure (minor benefits compared to a DM-run adventure), develops a business, builds a fortress, clears an area, trains with a master (borrowing from the weapon mastery system), creates a magic item, hear rumors, seek out components, or the like. This would also be the time required for prolonged healing, or developing certain skills. There would still be the serendipity of finding a new magic item in a dungeon, but you'd also have a structured way to develop a PC on your own. The goal would be to integrate masters and training, magic item creation and components, social networks, and the "end game" stuff with adventures.
Several newer games, like Conan & TOR, have such things. The rules in Conan are better than those in TOR in my opinion, but overall I find both those rule sets problematic.
I'm not familiar with either of those. What did you find "problematic"? I'm guessing it's not that they're systematically racist, sexist, or something else-ist.
I've also heard that Beyond the Wall might have something in the same vague vicinity.
Beyond the annoyance of Modiphius' wokeness, the Conan RPG is just too mechanically convoluted. Even character creation takes like 90 minutes and involves way too much flipping back and forth in the poorly organized core rulebook. And they get cute with this meta-currency (doom & momentum) that just slows things down. Even a simple combat can take 5 times as long as an equivalent combat in AD&D. I'm just not a fan of the 2d20 system or really any system with varying success levels. It's a moderate success or whatever....bah! Do I hit or not? Did I catch the edge of the cliff? Just give me an actual result. I have real life for annoying gray areas....
As for The One Ring, 75-80% of the mechanics involve stuff that can (and IMHO should) simply be roleplayed. They have all these rules for councils, journeys, etc., that are designed to simulate the books. But you're just rolling a bunch of dice to determine outcomes. The ludicrousness of this is on full display in the Free League forums where people debate how to game the system to achieve desired results. All along I'm thinking, "Or you could just roleplay it." Likewise, they have mechanics for the "Fellowship phase," which is simply your downtime between adventures. This is where you can acquire new skills, research found magic items, write songs, remove Shadow taint etc. It's not quite as annoying as some of the other rules, but still seems over structured. But it serves as an example of what people are talking about here.
As I've said elsewhere, my main issue with TOR as written is that they just want to simulate the books. I don't want that; I just want to game in Middle Earth. So we're just going to use White Box with a few tweaks and run our campaign that way. I've already sketched out very brief house rules that I think will capture the feel without the mechanical bloat.
Quote from: GnomeWorks on January 24, 2022, 06:14:50 PM
Quote from: Pat on January 24, 2022, 05:29:13 PMI always thought a good set of rules for what happens in between adventures would help.
One of the IMO big issues with D&D that I've been running my head into again and again over the years is the fact that there is no concrete temporal resolution outside of combat.
Most editions will talk about how a torch burns for "1 hour," or what have you, but that doesn't really mean anything in-fiction, because we don't (typically) track hours. We might track days, if we're lucky, but only in a vague and roundabout sense. The end result there usually seems to be that because there aren't mechanics tied to it, we don't really think about it - or if we do, it devolves into a lot of mother-may-I style of play, which isn't terribly satisfying.
Having functional game systems that players can interact with outside of adventures, like commissioning magic items and the like, is doable without a temporal framework for them to happen in, but I think having a much firmer temporal structure and more actual rules for those sorts of things would, y'know, encourage them to happen.
I don't know if you're familiar with 1e's DMG, but there are quite a few temporal rules in there. The book is packed with how much time things take, and it was clearly important in Gygax's games. The problem is, like everything else in the DMG, is it's almost completely disconnected. Yes, you can work out how long it takes to dig a 10' stretch of tunnel using 16 dwarven workers, or how long it takes to learn to ride a flying mount, or the length of a forced march, or how long it takes to train to gain a new level. But nothing pulls them together into a holistic system, it's almost obsessively granular and has a heavy wargaming focus, and a lot of the things I'm most interested in aren't really covered. So while there is a strong time focus, it doesn't really help all that much with developing the kind of off-time system I'd like.
Quote from: Pat on January 24, 2022, 05:29:13 PM
Quote from: dkabq on January 24, 2022, 12:48:25 PM
Quote from: Opaopajr on January 24, 2022, 12:34:30 PM
I found commissioning a good compromise in some of my campaigns, Mishihari. It becomes an adventure unto itself because good relations toward the manufacturer and components have to be gathered. It is like an almost self-writing side quest.
A self-writing side quest that is driven, for the most part, by the desires of the PC rather than the DM. While the DM can still put magic items into the game, commissioning lets the magic items be (to the extent they can find components and a fabricator, and have enough coin) what the PCs want them to be.
YMMV.
I always thought a good set of rules for what happens in between adventures would help. I'm thinking along the lines of Traveller's lifepaths (or Pendragon), where the player makes concrete choices, rolls, and there are specific results. The 4 year enlistments of Traveller wouldn't work, but a season (3 months) might be a good approach. This would allow downtime to be productive, whether someone decides to build a network of connections (an explicit favor system is assumed), seeks out adventure (minor benefits compared to a DM-run adventure), develops a business, builds a fortress, clears an area, trains with a master (borrowing from the weapon mastery system), creates a magic item, hear rumors, seek out components, or the like. This would also be the time required for prolonged healing, or developing certain skills. There would still be the serendipity of finding a new magic item in a dungeon, but you'd also have a structured way to develop a PC on your own. The goal would be to integrate masters and training, magic item creation and components, social networks, and the "end game" stuff with adventures.
IIRC, Ars Magica has the best mechanics I've seen for this.
There are no "magic shops" in my campaign. There are dealers in rare antiquities that people in the know, and with a lot of $$, can get certain things from. Otherwise if they want magic, they need to earn it by killing bad things in a dungeon somewhere.
Quote from: Pat on January 24, 2022, 05:29:13 PM
Quote from: dkabq on January 24, 2022, 12:48:25 PM
Quote from: Opaopajr on January 24, 2022, 12:34:30 PM
I found commissioning a good compromise in some of my campaigns, Mishihari. It becomes an adventure unto itself because good relations toward the manufacturer and components have to be gathered. It is like an almost self-writing side quest.
A self-writing side quest that is driven, for the most part, by the desires of the PC rather than the DM. While the DM can still put magic items into the game, commissioning lets the magic items be (to the extent they can find components and a fabricator, and have enough coin) what the PCs want them to be.
YMMV.
I always thought a good set of rules for what happens in between adventures would help. I'm thinking along the lines of Traveller's lifepaths (or Pendragon), where the player makes concrete choices, rolls, and there are specific results. The 4 year enlistments of Traveller wouldn't work, but a season (3 months) might be a good approach. This would allow downtime to be productive, whether someone decides to build a network of connections (an explicit favor system is assumed), seeks out adventure (minor benefits compared to a DM-run adventure), develops a business, builds a fortress, clears an area, trains with a master (borrowing from the weapon mastery system), creates a magic item, hear rumors, seek out components, or the like. This would also be the time required for prolonged healing, or developing certain skills. There would still be the serendipity of finding a new magic item in a dungeon, but you'd also have a structured way to develop a PC on your own. The goal would be to integrate masters and training, magic item creation and components, social networks, and the "end game" stuff with adventures.
5e D&D has this - the 'Downtime' rules in Xanathar's are pretty good, in conjunction with some from the DMG. I also added/extrapolated a few more, eg 50 weeks to learn a new skill. I use the (modified) crafting rules a lot. Seems like now whenever PCs kill a monster they're asking me what bits they can harvest. ;D
Quote from: The Spaniard on January 24, 2022, 10:19:06 PM
There are no "magic shops" in my campaign. There are dealers in rare antiquities that people in the know, and with a lot of $$, can get certain things from. Otherwise if they want magic, they need to earn it by killing bad things in a dungeon somewhere.
I'm with this one.
One other thing I'll allow in my campaign, if the players are in a big city with nobles, high level wizards, etc...
The trading of magic items for consumables like potions and scrolls. Say the party has a stray +2 sword that nobody is proficient with, or is of a type of blade that nobody uses. Based on the luck of the dice, they might be able to trade that weapon for some potions and/or scrolls. I basically use the XP value of a magic item to determine its 'worth' in cases like this, and like most transactions, the players always come out having lost a little in terms of value.
In very rare cases, a noble might purchase a magic weapon from the players for money, treasure maps, and if the weapon is valuable enough, maybe a land grant or minor title.
Quote from: GnomeWorks on January 24, 2022, 06:14:50 PM
One of the IMO big issues with D&D that I've been running my head into again and again over the years is the fact that there is no concrete temporal resolution outside of combat.
Call me a monster, but is is why I prefer measuring in 'scenes' with a understanding that a scene still has a somewhat limited degree of time (its like 15 min - 1 hour).
As for magic items I have a rarity system (not a MMO style), that determines how common the item is. Its not based purely on price. If its common/uncommon you can generally find it. Rare is rare.
Quote from: Zelen on January 23, 2022, 05:56:10 PMMagic items should always be at-best items of barter, favors, or quest rewards.
This can also backfire where nobody just cares about magic items at all:
'You want me to fight all the orcs of octeran, and open the cursed lock of zoltan for 2 cure potions and a +1 sword? Yeah go blow yourself.'
A +5% chance to hit will NEVER feel magical (In my opinion). Nobody would comission one and nobody would spend money on it if its just 5% betterer.
Quote from: jmarso on January 25, 2022, 09:10:56 AM
One other thing I'll allow in my campaign, if the players are in a big city with nobles, high level wizards, etc...
The trading of magic items for consumables like potions and scrolls. Say the party has a stray +2 sword that nobody is proficient with, or is of a type of blade that nobody uses. Based on the luck of the dice, they might be able to trade that weapon for some potions and/or scrolls. I basically use the XP value of a magic item to determine its 'worth' in cases like this, and like most transactions, the players always come out having lost a little in terms of value.
In very rare cases, a noble might purchase a magic weapon from the players for money, treasure maps, and if the weapon is valuable enough, maybe a land grant or minor title.
That is an excellent idea, and I will have to borrow it for my campaign.
Quote from: Pat on January 24, 2022, 07:01:58 PMI don't know if you're familiar with 1e's DMG, but there are quite a few temporal rules in there. The book is packed with how much time things take, and it was clearly important in Gygax's games. The problem is, like everything else in the DMG, is it's almost completely disconnected. [...] But nothing pulls them together into a holistic system, it's almost obsessively granular and has a heavy wargaming focus, and a lot of the things I'm most interested in aren't really covered.
I'm aware that 1e has this sort of thing. But as you said, it isn't holistic, and it's very granular and kind of all over the place in terms of things it covers.
What I was talking about - and may have been unclear in conveying, originally - was the notion of nesting time structures. Sort of like how 1e defined "turns" differently based upon whether you were in combat or not, but more consistent, more nestings, and consulting a thesaurus.
So you would have combat rounds, then exploration "rounds" which might be like an hour, then travel "rounds" which might be parts of a day or a whole day, and so on and so forth. Effectively you are always "in initiative," but at different temporal resolutions. I'm not sure how much this impacts pacing at the table, in terms of real time spent in different round types at each of the higher levels, but it feels like a sensible answer to a lot of the time-keeping issues I've personally encountered.
Quote from: Persimmon on January 22, 2022, 10:54:58 AM
So our OSE party lost its (8th level) cleric last night and was unable to bring her back. It happened towards the end of the adventure so they weren't really affected by it in terms of healing and what not, but now the characters want to buy potions of healing and possibly a couple other magic items for their upcoming adventures, which will be the "Saga of the Giants" series for BFRPG. My general policy is that potions and low level scrolls are pretty readily available, particularly in large cities, but more powerful items are both very rare and expensive. I still generally use the prices in the DMG as a baseline. So in the current situation, as the party will be starting in one of my campaign's larger cities, I have no problem with them buying potions of healing, though I'll put a cap on it. Still pondering the bag of holding they want, though the 25,000 gp price tag in the DMG seems fair enough, I suppose.
What about you? Do you let players buy magic items? Or do they have to earn (or steal) them the good old fashioned way?
For me this is very setting dependent. If magic items are regularly available, I tend to think through the setting implications of widespread magic items and build the world around that. If I am aiming for something more grounded, or gritty, I will tend to restrict them.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on January 22, 2022, 11:04:25 AM
Varies by campaign, and how generally stingy the campaign is with magic items, and of what level. Sometimes, very low-level items aren't even considered magic, and are available as much as the alchemist or other source can produce them, same as a sword or bow or food. I've gone the other way where only high-level caster can even make the items, and thus they are rare.
It also depends on how valuable something like a healing potion is in the game. I think the later editions of D&D make the healing potions readily available because healing is already so available elsewhere. In earlier games, healing is a real restraint. Of course, you can tweak any edition to move it more one way or the other.
I've also done it where anyone can buy a lot of potions--if you know a producer and are in the good graces of the church, city, etc. that controls them. That works well in a game with political factions. (Also encourages potion stealing in some cases.)
Just me, but I'm not a big fan of buying and selling magical items. Not impossible as a private deal, but not a trade you'll find in shops or the market (not genuine items anyway). In my own setting arcane magic, along with necromancy, is religiously proscribed with horrific penalties, so certainly no open trade. Magical practitioners must operate in secrecy, and they are super-cautious, so in practice it is exceedingly hard to find magic items for sale at any price.
On the other hand, for me (and for the religious authorities), some items, as you say, like healing potions, aren't even considered magic. Just medicine. You can buy and sell those.
Just as "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic," any sufficiently ordinary magic is indistinguishable from technology.
If my character can purchase a magic item as easily as I buy a cup of coffee in Seattle, don't expect me to more excited about it than I am about the coffee.
Quote from: Zalman on January 26, 2022, 09:40:41 AM
Just as "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic," any sufficiently ordinary magic is indistinguishable from technology.
If my character can purchase a magic item as easily as I buy a cup of coffee in Seattle, don't expect me to more excited about it than I am about the coffee.
The mundane cup of coffee may not get people excited, but coffee drinkers can get real damn unhappy when they can't get it, much like some players that suddenly find they cannot buy magic items when their previous experiences (for a few decades now) have been the opposite.
There's nothing quite as exiting as slaughtering an entire dungeon full of critters, only to finally find that +1 dagger you couldn't get at the store. It's only a plain +1 weapon, of course, but gating it behind a multi-level labyrinth really made it special, by virtue of its rarity, and the inability of shop keepers all across the land, to buy an old +1 weapon from an adventurer that no longer needs it and selling it forward for twice that amount. Cuz why would adventurers be pawning off all these excess +1 weapons that keep cropping up in every crypt they raid? Amiright? :P
Personally I don't like handing out too many magical items cuz I find they can become a crutch or disrupt the game when overpowered. But at the same time if all an item has is a single +1 bonus in it I tend to have a hard time finding it wonderous, no matter how rare they supposedly are. A lot of this also depends on whether item creation is even a thing that's available to characters in the game. If so, at that point any limits on magic item trade are purely artificial, unless there's some sort of religious or historical restriction on magic (like in the case of Dark Sun, where the world was turned into a wasteland by Defiler Mages), and even then there's going to be a black-market for it (as is the case in Dark Sun, through the Veiled Alliance).
A +1 dagger can become very important if it's the only weapon you have that can hurt a gargoyle.
I suspect some of this is left over from prior editions. 3E introduced damage reduction, which could be overcome if you threw enough dice and bonuses at it. 1E/2E and B/X-BECMI simply said straight up: you need a magic weapon of this many plusses or you're not going to hurt this critter.
Quote from: Pat on January 26, 2022, 11:04:30 AM
A +1 dagger can become very important if it's the only weapon you have that can hurt a gargoyle.
Then its more a Mcguffin then a reward.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 26, 2022, 11:08:03 AM
Quote from: Pat on January 26, 2022, 11:04:30 AM
A +1 dagger can become very important if it's the only weapon you have that can hurt a gargoyle.
Then its more a Mcguffin then a reward.
Yeah, I always hated that type of mechanic--specially from a gameplay PoV. From a thematic aspect it might make sense when fighting ghosts or whatever, but from a gameplay PoV it just places me in a no-win scenario were I have to rely entirely on this specific item that may or may not exist (or at least be available to me) for me to even do anything against my opponent, even as I lay impotent and defenseless with it consistently pounding on me. It's boring AF and usually just turns PCs without the requisite magical weapon into spectators at best, helpless pincushions at worst.
But then if you DO have a weapon with the minimum "+" requirement, and so does everyone else in the group, then suddenly utter immunity (of massive resistance in the case of 3e damage resistances) completely disappears, and it's like that previously uber tough opponent no longer has any special resistances--At. All. There's NO middle ground: either YOU are screwed, or IT is. And it ALL banks on having this item you have no guarantee of even having, but might still be plentiful and "0" issue if your campaign has enough magic weapons floating around.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 26, 2022, 11:08:03 AM
Quote from: Pat on January 26, 2022, 11:04:30 AM
A +1 dagger can become very important if it's the only weapon you have that can hurt a gargoyle.
Then its more a Mcguffin then a reward.
If RPGs were pre-scriped stories, yes. But there's no guarantee you'll have a +1 weapon when you decided to take the steps down to a new level of the dungeon and woke up the guardian. It's up to you to assess the risks, and flee if needed. After all, gargoyles do quite a bit of damage, and a +1 dagger does very little. So even with that +1 weapon, you're probably going to get mauled before you take it down, unless you come up with a creative alternative.
Quote from: Pat on January 26, 2022, 12:00:51 PM
If RPGs were pre-scriped stories, yes.
Nope. Is a key to open a door "magical" or "exciting"? Its still a mcguffin, sandbox or not.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 26, 2022, 01:07:39 PM
Quote from: Pat on January 26, 2022, 12:00:51 PM
If RPGs were pre-scriped stories, yes.
Nope. Is a key to open a door "magical" or "exciting"? Its still a mcguffin, sandbox or not.
We're talking about a +1 dagger, not a door and a key.
Quote from: Pat on January 26, 2022, 01:27:06 PM
We're talking about a +1 dagger, not a door and a key.
All your points about encountering a gargoyle can be applied to a door with a requisite +1 key.
I don't hand out treasure on masse, but Id hate to be part of your games, with the way you treat rewards.
I like to play my games old school like Gygax with gobs of magic items.
Keep your +1 Dagger suckers, I got heaps.
Buying magic items I think of as being a no. Potions, or one use items (such as a glass ball filled with alchemical reagents that can explode similar to a fireball) I allow for extreme prices. But something like a magic sword? No way would one be for sale. I run a campaign where magic can be a bit unpredictable and the ability to hold permanent enchantments is somewhat of an ancient/lost art. I guess under different circumstances, this could be different, but I like something like an enchanted blade to be a pretty big deal...and I never have one in game without writing a run down of who it's last 3 owners were.
Greetings!
Yeah, "Old School" definitely has diverse traditions. On one hand, you have low-magic, mud-covered peasants. On the other hand, you have great heroes decked out with uber-powerful magic items like Christmas Trees.
Old School modules were typically *swimming* in magic items.
I have always enjoyed magic items. It's a fantasy game. That's what those lists in the DMG are for. if you aren't getting your hands on all those goodies your doing it wrong.
I have special Pawn Shops that deal in the occasional magic item. The *Vermillion Pawn* comes to mind. Yes, from White Dwarf Magazine, about 1988 or so.
As has been mentioned, Gary also played with gobs of magic items, too. Who wants fucking mundane items of everything? It's all fun.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
It should be contextual to your setting.
If your system has rules for making magic items, and magic-items exist in the world, the capacity to form a magic-item economy will exist on some level.
I keep magic rare and powerful. I think every generation of D&D player goes through their version of Monty Haul, and it's due to GM's not understanding how to feed the PC's without bloating their game up.
Buying a magic-item should be as easy as you want magic-items to proliferate in your game. I always remind new GM's - context context context. If you're in the capital of Melnibone' you're likely to find that rare merchant selling an enchanted item vs. Ye Old Magic Shoppe in the Village of Piglette within the Woods Poor Ass Bitches.
And all one has to do is ask yourself - How easy is it to make a "magic item"? If it's easy - then the world should reflect that. If not? The answer is the same thing.
I definitely like having some +1 stuff be treated as pretty minor magic that a skilled dwarf or elf smith can create and sell, albeit for a lot more than +0 stuff. The PCs in my Faerun campaign tend to acquire +1 weapons fairly quickly, found crafted or (rarely) bought. +2 and +3 stuff takes a lot longer. Currently the 8-PC level 5-6 party has one +2 item, a goliath greatsword. the 7-PC level 6-8 party has done a lot better with 4 +2 items and 2 +3 weapons: +2 scimitar of speed, +2 greatsword, two +2 shields, a +3 battle-axe, and a +3 dwarven thrower hammer. Pretty average by old AD&D standards but high for 5e D&D I think.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 26, 2022, 01:39:02 PM
Quote from: Pat on January 26, 2022, 01:27:06 PM
We're talking about a +1 dagger, not a door and a key.
All your points about encountering a gargoyle can be applied to a door with a requisite +1 key.
I don't hand out treasure on masse, but Id hate to be part of your games, with the way you treat rewards.
What the hell are you talking about?
Quote from: Pat on January 26, 2022, 07:15:41 PMWhat the hell are you talking about?
That a +1 sword that can kill theoretical gargoyls (that would have to be countered a different way normally) is as exciting as a +1 key that opens +1 requiring locks (that would have to be countered a different way normally). It doesn't really amplify your abilities all that much, or give you new ones to use outside of specific context. Just because in a sandbox your not FORCED into such encounters, doesn't make it any less of a mcguffin, and not a ability expanding reward.
For my games, no there are not magic shops. But there's always an underworld/black market/right price thing. For potions of healing, you can buy from temples, that sort of thing. So they're more available (I like my characters to live :D ).
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 26, 2022, 09:37:20 PM
Quote from: Pat on January 26, 2022, 07:15:41 PMWhat the hell are you talking about?
That a +1 sword that can kill theoretical gargoyls (that would have to be countered a different way normally) is as exciting as a +1 key that opens +1 requiring locks (that would have to be countered a different way normally). It doesn't really amplify your abilities all that much, or give you new ones to use outside of specific context. Just because in a sandbox your not FORCED into such encounters, doesn't make it any less of a mcguffin, and not a ability expanding reward.
What, do you want to give a +5 bonus? That's power inflation for the sake of power inflation. And it's not a MacGuffin, because a MacGuffin is a plot device used to drive the plot and has no purpose outside the plot... which sandbox games completely lack. It's not the right term to describe whatever you're upset about.
And what was that out of nowhere nonsense about not wanting to be part of my games because your internet telepathy deduced something I never said about how I hand out rewards?
Quote from: Pat on January 26, 2022, 10:25:49 PMWhat, do you want to give a +5 bonus?
If a weapon is supposed to be legendary enough to be worthy of the tons of money invested, or dangerous enough to warrant being locked away in a massive underground labyrinth, it better do something more then just +5% accuracy and maybe damage some gargoyles (unless your a mage at which point go ahead and damage it anyway).
+25% hit is also not impressive (and mathmatically annoying). Maybe it can cleanly slice through all metal and stone, divine for heretics, or command demons. Having such a artifact would come with the consequences of having things of such power. A consequential item feels consequential within the world, not just through arbitrary fiat.
QuoteAnd it's not a MacGuffin, because a MacGuffin is a plot device used to drive the plot and has no purpose outside the plot.
I feel this is very much playing semantics. 'Sandboxes lack a plot, therefore it cannot have mcguffins'.
Il agree that maybe Mcguffin by some literal term is not the best fit, but a reward that exists with largely no benefit except opening up some specific locks and no further proactive use of itsown, I consider a weak reward.
QuoteAnd what was that out of nowhere nonsense about not wanting to be part of my games because your internet telepathy deduced something I never said about how I hand out rewards?
That was unnecacarily snippy of me. I should not have made this a personal deal. Sorry.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 27, 2022, 10:12:48 AM
Quote from: Pat on January 26, 2022, 10:25:49 PMWhat, do you want to give a +5 bonus?
If a weapon is supposed to be legendary enough to be worthy of the tons of money invested, or dangerous enough to warrant being locked away in a massive underground labyrinth, it better do something more then just +5% accuracy and maybe damage some gargoyles (unless your a mage at which point go ahead and damage it anyway).
+25% hit is also not impressive (and mathmatically annoying). Maybe it can cleanly slice through all metal and stone, divine for heretics, or command demons. Having such a artifact would come with the consequences of having things of such power. A consequential item feels consequential within the world, not just through arbitrary fiat.
High level athletes pay obscene amounts of money for gear that can, at best, provide an almost infinitesimal performance improvement.
But I think it's interesting from a player-psychology standpoint. It's true, for many players, a +1 doesn't feel like a lot. That's even true in cases where it can be mathematically proven to be more beneficial over time. For instance, a flat bonus in 3e is almost always better than a +1d6 damage from an element. In that specific example, it plays to the part of human psychology where a notable (or just larger) boost that shows up periodically is seen as more important than a smaller boost that applies all the time. We don't remember all those times where we needed a 16 to hit, and barely made it because of the +1 bonus, or that combat where 5 hits with a +1 damage bonus resulted in the creature dropping a round earlier. We're a lot more likely to remember a natural 20, or that time we did max damage on a crit, even if it's wasted (e.g. a more normal roll would have killed the monster anyway).
One thing I mentioned earlier is to change the +1 to +3 bonus (I'm working from a B/X reference point, where +3 is the max) to reflect the quality of the weapon. It's not magical, at least not in the way we usually use the term, just exceptionally well balanced, made of the best alloys, and tempered in a way to maximize flexibility and hardness. These weapons can be purchased, though at inflated prices. If a normal sword costs 60 gp, a fine sword (+1) might cost 600 gp. Weaponsmiths of this caliber might be uncommon, and become even rarer as more plusses are involved. The PCs might need to seek out and gain the favor or attention of the most talented artisans, who might be finicky and demanding; or under the patronage or in the employ of some NPC, like a wealthy merchant or powerful noble, who has to give their permission. They might require components, perhaps rare materials like meteoric ore, mithral, or adamantine; or even something like's dragon's breath or being quenched in a holy pool. Or the PCs might have to rely on rare finds, because the skill to make +3 weapons might be entirely lost to today's smiths.
The origin of the weapons may also matter, with the best weapons coming from specific heritages. To borrow from Tolkien, there might be weapons crafted by the elves and by an ancient and powerful human race (Numenoreans). To borrow from history, the steel of Damascus. There might also be mighty weapons crafted by the dwarves. These might be made of different metals, and have different properties that aren't magic in the "wizards made it" sense. Elven weapons might burn the undead, or even light up around goblins, for instance. Others might be especially effective against lycanthropes, or so on. Morgul weapons might inflict woulds that are uncannily hard to heal, or even drain life. Carving through stone might be a property of makes that rely on certain materials. These would be features of these particular makes, and additional magical properties could be added on top.
With the basic bonus being part of the make of the weapon, as well as some of the more subtle properties, the magical part could reflected the showier aspects. If a sword can emulate a spell, that's not part of the make, rather it's some magical property imbued into the weapon. This could be things like becoming a flame or a frost brand, returning to one's hand once thrown, acting as a dowsing rod to find treasure, teleporting, and so on.
To further expand on the magical properties added to a basic make, and borrowing from OD&D where all (all) magical swords are intelligent, intelligence might be the common factor shared by all magical weapons. There might be different sources of intelligence. A blade might gain intelligence from a sacrifice -- plunge the newly forged weapon into the breast of a sapient being, and it steals the soul, which becomes the motive force in the blade. Or from the elements, with swords being imbued with spirits of fire or the earth, wind or water. Or from long use, with legendary and hereditary blades becoming sapient over time, as the spirits of their users rub off. Or a goetic origin, with blades containing the spirits of demons or angels. Or loa, or natural spirits like those from a river or a mountain. It's the intelligence that controls the magical powers of the weapon, and which must be mastered by the wielder, in order to master the powers. Further, the nature of the intelligence defines what powers can be manifested by the blade; if you want a flametongue, you need a fire spirit, or perhaps a demon.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 27, 2022, 10:12:48 AM
That was unnecacarily snippy of me. I should not have made this a personal deal. Sorry.
Appreciated and respected.
Quote from: Pat on January 27, 2022, 11:13:53 AM
High level athletes pay obscene amounts of money for gear that can, at best, provide an almost infinitesimal performance improvement.
Possibly, but we don't sing songs about the Nikes of Jord-On, nor do the swimsuits of The Angeles warrant a dungeon to protect. And even with obscene amounts of money, it doesn't reach close to magic item costs (outside of tacky crap like jewel studs). Also those items are not really rare. If you want them, and have the money - you can get them. We don't need crushed pope teeth to craft the kickable balls of chiki-briki. If signed or something by a star athlete, they would be worth allot to collectors, but again rarely dungeon worthy.
And of course its not equalatiraly applied. A +1 sword exists in the same context as a ring of invisibility. Which is why I think beyond cost, there needs to be a degree of rarity.
Like...To some degree I also use +1->Gargoyle type stuff. I just have different degrees of what is commonly available and what is uncommonly available.
A +1 Sword is pretty common (And in SW flat attack bonuses don't go above a +1 on weapons), like a high quality car. But a Brutal weapon is rare because it allows a person to smash things with heavy armor (Big monsters/vehicles) even though in most combats it won't come up.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 27, 2022, 12:23:58 PM
And of course its not equalatiraly applied. A +1 sword exists in the same context as a ring of invisibility. Which is why I think beyond cost, there needs to be a degree of rarity.
The random tables effectively determine rarity. For example, in the B/X Expert Rulebook, the most common item is the +1 sword, with an 8% chance (20% chance to get the sword subtable, and 40% of that table is the +1 sword; 0.20 * 0.40 = 0.08). That means 1 in 12.5 of all magic items will be +1 swords. The next most common is the 1 spell scroll (4.5%/1 in 22), then the 2 spell scroll and some protection scrolls (lycanthropes, undead, and elementals; all 3%/1 in 33), followed by the +1 shield (2%/1 in 50).
The least common items have a 0.05% (1 in 2,000) chance of occurring, and include a couple high bonus weapons (mace +3, dagger +2/+3 vs., warven thrower +, spear +3), multiple wish items (2 rings), and other powerful items (staff of wizardry, crystal ball with ESP, drums of panic, efreeti bottle, the 4 elemental summoning devices, a flying carpet, helms of telepathy and teleportation, horn of blasting, and mirror of life trapping). Everything else falls in between. It's not hard to convert those to AD&D frequencies (very rare 4%, rare 11%, uncommon 20%, common 65%).
But that conflates rarity and power. It would probably be better to come up with consistent set of guidelines for classifying items by rarity, and how to distinguish that from more powerful items being inherently less common. Thinking of magic items like monsters and dungeon levels might help -- what items belong on dungeon level 8, and which of those are the rarest even on the most ideal level? Assign magic items a typical level, and then a rarity.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 27, 2022, 12:23:58 PM
Quote from: Pat on January 27, 2022, 11:13:53 AM
High level athletes pay obscene amounts of money for gear that can, at best, provide an almost infinitesimal performance improvement.
Possibly, but we don't sing songs about the Nikes of Jord-On, nor do the swimsuits of The Angeles warrant a dungeon to protect. And even with obscene amounts of money, it doesn't reach close to magic item costs (outside of tacky crap like jewel studs). Also those items are not really rare. If you want them, and have the money - you can get them. We don't need crushed pope teeth to craft the kickable balls of chiki-briki. If signed or something by a star athlete, they would be worth allot to collectors, but again rarely dungeon worthy.
And of course its not equalatiraly applied. A +1 sword exists in the same context as a ring of invisibility. Which is why I think beyond cost, there needs to be a degree of rarity.
Like...To some degree I also use +1->Gargoyle type stuff. I just have different degrees of what is commonly available and what is uncommonly available.
A +1 Sword is pretty common (And in SW flat attack bonuses don't go above a +1 on weapons), like a high quality car. But a Brutal weapon is rare because it allows a person to smash things with heavy armor (Big monsters/vehicles) even though in most combats it won't come up.
In fairness high-end athletic gear isn't exactly rare in our world because we live in a technologically advanced, globalized and highly industrialized consumeristic society (at least till the supply chain completely collapses), where mass production is a thing. But even then the newest Nikes probably cost around ten times as much as some cheap ass bargain sneakers.
Back in the olden days or some fantasy equivalent you would've had to find a master shoemaker to get shoes like that, and probably have them commissioned or something.
I also agree with Pat that while on the surface a +1 or even a +5 bonus might seem unimpressive, technically—all things considered, including STR/DEX bonuses, Specialization bonuses, plus bonuses stacked from other items, etc—a +1 bonus is not far off from actual fine craftsmanship level and a +5 bonus is actually obscene, and viable to screw up balance. The issue, as already stated is that a +1 bonus on its own doesn't feel as magical as special properties like+1d6 elemental damage or spell-like abilities and stuff like that.
Quote from: Pat on January 27, 2022, 12:43:59 PM
The random tables effectively determine rarity.
I mean in a really roundabout way that takes allot of time I suppose. But its annoying to customize because you have to adjust every item %-wise if you want an items to exist or not.
Its fun for quick treasure drops or item shop generation, but as a general rarity rate, I would say no.
QuoteBut that conflates rarity and power.
Well not necacarily. I generally make more utility granting items rarer in my games, but numbers boosters not uncommon.
QuoteIt would probably be better to come up with consistent set of guidelines for classifying items by rarity
I just rate them manually. I don't play dungeon treasure crawls so somekind of level/dungeon/level rarity isn't important for me. Depending on setting, I just change around what Items exist/don't exist
Quote from: VisionStorm on January 27, 2022, 01:02:09 PMIn fairness high-end athletic gear isn't exactly rare in our world because we live in a technologically advanced, globalized and highly industrialized consumeristic society (at least till the supply chain completely collapses), where mass production is a thing. But even then the newest Nikes probably cost around ten times as much as some cheap ass bargain sneakers.
Well in the past shoes where simply worse. Even a master cobbler would make shoes generally worse then the ones in common day with less advanced materials. But even if in a post apolalypse where nikes didn't decay for some reason, they would not be worth bagillions, and stored in dungeons.
Consider what these bonuses represent.
When professionals are willing to WRECK their bodies to get 1% incremental benefit to physical performance... a +1 sword is a 5% increase.
As an aside, +1 weapons can represent non-magical (or not explicitly magical) things too. In Westeros, for example, Valyrian swords are better against the others (like, for example, silver might be), but also better against other swords. These are usually not for sale; however, "castle forged" swords (a bit better than "usual" swords) might be.
In 4e Dark Sun, IIRC, weapons made or iron were +1 or more when compared to usual weapons (made of bone etc.)!
For all 5e's fault, I like the limitation of about +3 for most weapons. It is relevant but not game-breaking IMO.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 27, 2022, 01:12:03 PM
Quote from: Pat on January 27, 2022, 12:43:59 PM
The random tables effectively determine rarity.
I mean in a really roundabout way that takes allot of time I suppose. But its annoying to customize because you have to adjust every item %-wise if you want an items to exist or not.
Its fun for quick treasure drops or item shop generation, but as a general rarity rate, I would say no.
It's trivial to extract. I have them all in a spreadsheet, and it only took me a couple minutes. But you're correct it's not very user-friendly.
The point I was making was that an explicit rarity system would be useful, and we can derive the start of one from those tables. The four categories (common, uncommon, rare, and very rare) used to represent AD&D's monster frequency are a good baseline, and since they're associated with explicit percentages, we can sort the items by (percentile) rarity and group them in 4%/11%/20%/65% blocks. Using that method on the tables in the B/X Expert Rulebook, here are some typical items in each rarity group:
- Common: sword +1 (including some with extras, like flames on command), armor +1, shield +1 or +2, potion of gaseous form, scroll of protection from magic, ring of protection +1
- Uncommon: sword +2 or +3, armor +2 or +3, shield +3, mace +1, potion of control undead, most treasure maps, ring of invisibility, staff of healing, bag of holding, gauntlets of ogre power, elven cloak and boots
- Rare: sword +1 (wishes or drain life), bow +1, axe +2, ring of djinni summoning, snake staff, wand of fire balls, crystal ball, rope of climbing
- Very rare: mace +3, ring of regeneration, staff of power, flying carpet, girdle of giant strength
Obviously that could use some tweaks, but it's an interesting start.
Another advantage of having a rarity is it makes it easier to create magic items tables on the fly. AD&D2e had a good approach, with the 2d10 wandering monster tables. Instead of trying to force everything into a single table and throwing frequency to the wind, you can create a small table where the very rare items only show up about 4% of the time, and common items show up about 65% of the time.
Quote from: tenbones on January 27, 2022, 01:19:28 PM
Consider what these bonuses represent.
When professionals are willing to WRECK their bodies to get 1% incremental benefit to physical performance... a +1 sword is a 5% increase.
DnD Professionals can only get 5% incremental bonuses if they read magical fitness books.
Buying new shoes just aint going to cut it.
Quote from: tenbones on January 27, 2022, 01:19:28 PMWhen professionals are willing to WRECK their bodies to get 1% incremental benefit to physical performance.
Real world percentages don't corrolate to game mechanics very well. And the context for athletes like this is very different.
Quote from: Pat on January 27, 2022, 02:21:23 PM
It's trivial to extract. I have them all in a spreadsheet, and it only took me a couple minutes. But you're correct it's not very user-friendly.
Everything takes time mon. For consumer goods they have the 'left handed oil test' and for games I have the '3 minutes to game and engaging the PCs at the same time test'.
But your idea of some centralized rarity system with a roll could be neat for randomized games, and does seem to be easier to impliment.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 27, 2022, 09:43:21 PM
But your idea of some centralized rarity system with a roll could be neat for randomized games, and does seem to be easier to impliment.
Since I have it in a spreadsheet, it's not hard to randomly generate a couple sample tables. Let's see, the template:
2d10 Frequency
2 Very rare
3 Very rare
4 Very rare/rare
5 Rare
6 Rare
7 Uncommon
8 Uncommon
9 Common
10 Common
11 Common
12 Common
13 Common
14 Uncommon
15 Uncommon
16 Rare
17 Rare
18 Very rare/rare
19 Very rare
20 Very rare
Two random tables:
2d10 Randomly Generated Magic Item Table 1
2 Efreeti Bottle
3 Armor +3, Shield +1
4 Armor +2, Shield +3
5 Spear +2
6 Wand of Negation*
7 Sword +2
8 Potion of Control Human
9 Sword +1, flames on command
10 Scroll of Protection from Undead
11 Scroll of Protection from Lycanthropes
12 Treasure Map: location of 1 magic item
13 Potion of Invulnerability
14 Potion of Diminution
15 Treasure Map: location of 5d6 x 1,000 gp value and 5d6 gems
16 Broom of Flying
17 Spear +2
18 Armor +2, Shield +3
19 Ring of Regeneration
20 Horn of Blasting
2d10 Random Generated Magic Item Table 2
2 Ring of Wishes, 1d3+1
3 Brazier Commanding Fire Elementals
4 Broom of Flying
5 Wand of Metal Detection*
6 Ring of Djinni Summoning
7 Sling +1
8 Treasure Map: location of 1d60 gems and 2d10 pieces of jewelry
9 Potion of Invulnerability
10 Spell scroll: 1 spell*
11 Spell scroll: 1 spell*
12 Potion of Speed
13 Potion of Clairvoyance
14 Ring of Control Plant
15 Ring of Delusion
16 Sword +1, wishes
17 Sword +1, wishes
18 Wand of Cold*
19 Ring of Spell Storing
20 Brazier Commanding Fire Elementals
Couple repeats, though no plain Sword +1s, which is unusual given my earlier tests (8% shows up a lot).
The basic problem is frequency is not sufficient for categorization. Level isn't a factor in the random tables, but it's clearly a factor in the magic item distribution in the modules (no efreeti bottles in the Caves of Chaos, for instance).
By the way, I did let them buy their healing potions and 1 bag of holding. I ended up sticking another bag of holding in the dungeon. And once they got to the second stage of the adventure, the healing potions really started getting used. They were sucking them down like college kids drinking beer at a frat party. I had visions of a healing potion funnel with the other party members shouting "Chug, chug, chug!" Now they're further on and far from civilization so any help they get along those lines must come from their plunder and their recently hired cleric....
Quote from: Shasarak on January 27, 2022, 04:00:36 PM
Quote from: tenbones on January 27, 2022, 01:19:28 PM
Consider what these bonuses represent.
When professionals are willing to WRECK their bodies to get 1% incremental benefit to physical performance... a +1 sword is a 5% increase.
DnD Professionals can only get 5% incremental bonuses if they read magical fitness books.
Buying new shoes just aint going to cut it.
Right - but I'm trying to show the commensurate costs vs. reality of what these things mean. Then you need to figure out how your world would express that?
In this case Magical Fitness books - how prevalent do you want them to be? What are the controls on that? How is that expressed in your setting and game? Too much and you may as well make it that it's part of Char Gen where parents get these books for their kids when they're little to help work that farm, do the books for the family business etc so at Char Gen in your magical society everyone gets +1 to a Stat.
HOW are these things made? This also has downstream effects that I think sandbox GM's should consider. if you're just running modules it's probably less of an issue. What's involved and who are included in that production stream? And more importantly - can those things be made into gameable content?
I've had whole side adventurers where players discovered what they thought was literal ancient goldmine they broke into from exploring a cavern only to find out they had broken into the King's secret gold mine they used to produce currency. Hijinks ensues. But it stands towards making mundane realities of your setting matter - and if it happens to be magic items, to the point where they can be bought in stores, then consider how/why that is and flesh it out and make it interesting.
It really depends on the setting, if it's a low-magic setting i usually have almost no way to buy or
sell magic items (and given the rarity, the players will generally want to keep them).
Currently i'm playing a 1e AD&D Greyhawk campaign, which is fairly heavy on the magic items,
in most large cities spell components are generally available, along with a few potions (generally priced
at 80-150% of the DMG price depending on reaction rolls and the personality of the merchant.)
Other magic items are almost never sold, and when you do find one for sale it'll usually be almost
double the cost found in the DMG. (for something like Magic Swords, Feather Tokens, things like that.)
That's about as far as i like to go with purchasable magic items, never ran a campaign in the forgotten
realms but if i had, i expect i'd have had to put a magic emporium on near every city street.
Quote from: Sanson on February 01, 2022, 04:28:24 AM
Other magic items are almost never sold, and when you do find one for sale it'll usually be almost
double the cost found in the DMG. (for something like Magic Swords, Feather Tokens, things like that.)
Complete tangent, but I always wanted to run a campaign with only the weird magic items. None of those +1 swords or elven cloaks, just feather tokens and figurines of wondrous power from the DMG, eyes from EPT, de-orientized versions of magic items from OA, and so on.
Quote from: Pat on February 01, 2022, 12:29:00 PM
Quote from: Sanson on February 01, 2022, 04:28:24 AM
Other magic items are almost never sold, and when you do find one for sale it'll usually be almost
double the cost found in the DMG. (for something like Magic Swords, Feather Tokens, things like that.)
Complete tangent, but I always wanted to run a campaign with only the weird magic items. None of those +1 swords or elven cloaks, just feather tokens and figurines of wondrous power from the DMG, eyes from EPT, de-orientized versions of magic items from OA, and so on.
yeah eyes are cool, and a nice departure from the stereotypical magical toolkit (wands, staves, rings, what have you). They can thus introduce a slightly exotic touch. You don't really have to commit on whether they are "magic" or "technology" so they are easily ported to any setting. I've done that. It helps if the players aren't familiar with the concept.
Depends on the system, if its made with buying stuff in mind (such as PF1), yes, if not, (like 5e), then don't.
One thing I've done is have bookstores and alchemical shops that sell potions, and scrolls up to 2nd or 3rd level. Maybe even a few magic and curio shops with a few utility items, many trivial; or exceptional armories that sell +1 or at most +2 weapons or armor.
Anything beyond that requires working with collectors. Here, contacts are important. Knowing a fence or broker with contacts among the nobles and high level adventurers can really help. There may be auctions or bidding wars for key items, with plenty of room for stealth and intrigue. Typically, keeping an ear to the ground will give the PCs a chance to bid on a few random items. The other option is commissioning someone to find a specific item, which can be costly and take a long time.
I've always winged it, but a formalized version could work well with a lifepath-style system for what happens between adventures.
If we're talking a system where buying magic items could unbalance things, I say that buying magic items should be a tense affair. Not necessarily a black market, but run like one. Security should be top notch, and the PCs should be worried that the security wizard with an itch trigger finger should be ready to fire off a lightning bolt at any moment, mainly because he is. If you use psionics, have the psionicist probe their minds extensively for any plan to shaft them. Put wards on those items that damage anyone foolish enough to steal them.
Quote from: PsyXypher on February 12, 2022, 12:49:32 PM
If we're talking a system where buying magic items could unbalance things, I say that buying magic items should be a tense affair. Not necessarily a black market, but run like one. Security should be top notch, and the PCs should be worried that the security wizard with an itch trigger finger should be ready to fire off a lightning bolt at any moment, mainly because he is. If you use psionics, have the psionicist probe their minds extensively for any plan to shaft them. Put wards on those items that damage anyone foolish enough to steal them.
I always do it that you pay up front, and then they make you the item. Or at very least you pay before you get to see the item.
Quote from: Persimmon on January 22, 2022, 10:54:58 AM
So our OSE party lost its (8th level) cleric last night and was unable to bring her back. It happened towards the end of the adventure so they weren't really affected by it in terms of healing and what not, but now the characters want to buy potions of healing and possibly a couple other magic items for their upcoming adventures, which will be the "Saga of the Giants" series for BFRPG. My general policy is that potions and low level scrolls are pretty readily available, particularly in large cities, but more powerful items are both very rare and expensive. I still generally use the prices in the DMG as a baseline. So in the current situation, as the party will be starting in one of my campaign's larger cities, I have no problem with them buying potions of healing, though I'll put a cap on it. Still pondering the bag of holding they want, though the 25,000 gp price tag in the DMG seems fair enough, I suppose.
What about you? Do you let players buy magic items? Or do they have to earn (or steal) them the good old fashioned way?
You got to let them do SOMETHING with all the loot they get.
The thing here is not to make it too easy. Got a dead character and the others want to bring her back? Make it EXPENSIVE AS HELL and tough to do- maybe they have to get something from a dangerous place.
Let them get magic arrows so they can hurt something magical from a distance- but they cost a LOT, so they ain't going to waste them on some crummy orcs and ogres.
Potions of healing is fun because you can make it so nobody knows how good they'll work- maybe one can heal 4-24 points so for all you know you spent a whole bunch of loot on something that only healed 4 points. Maybe "bought" items like a fireball wand has a 10% of just fizzling with each shot. Make it fun.
Quote from: Redwanderer on February 16, 2022, 04:14:57 PM
Potions of healing is fun because you can make it so nobody knows how good they'll work- maybe one can heal 4-24 points so for all you know you spent a whole bunch of loot on something that only healed 4 points.
It might be interesting to base some variable effects, like the amount healed by a potion, on the source. What if the 3d8+3 hp restored by a potion of extra-healing is the range across all possible makers, instead of being a number you roll when you quaff the potion? Poor Brunhilda the Tattered Fey in the shack out by the swamp might make a potion that only heals 8 hp, while the renowned alchemist Drago the Magnificent might make extra-healing potions that restore 24 hp. Could even keep it random, as long as the random rolls fall within that range (6 to 27), so maybe 1d4+6 for Brunhilda, or 19+2d4 for Drago. Quality matters, and part of the game would involve the players figuring out the best place to source their potions and other magic items.
As many have said before: it depends on the campaign
However, I don't like it when PCs can build their perfect magic items. I noticed right away in 3e with the Creation Feats that it was like a video game. We're grinding, selling, and crafting. It didn't feel like D&D at all. So I try to greatly limit the kind of items you can purchase, and maintain some fantasy flavor. For example, some items might be purchased or traded from a thematic source, like an Elven Cloak when you're in an Elven Kingdom. I might not allow such a purchase outside of the Elven Kingdom, as no one is willing to part with it. When we're trying to buy and sell magic items we're no longer questing and fighting, we're just being diplomancers.
Quote from: Persimmon on January 22, 2022, 10:54:58 AM
What about you? Do you let players buy magic items? Or do they have to earn (or steal) them the good old fashioned way?
Yes but it is a luxury trade with all the advantages and disadvantages trade in rare and valuable items have.
This the price I use for my own campaigns, it lists prices in silver pennies with 1d = 1 sp. Although you can make 1d = 1 GP if you want to make it more costly or use the gold piece as your major coin.
https://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/Magic_Item_Creation_Rev_2.pdf
In general magic shops will have stock with value equal to 1/10th the proprietor's xp total. I will update the inventory once per game month. If the shop is visited regularly I will roll next month's stock. And space out when items become available. This is not common as PCs will hit the shop, blow a lot of coins, and not come back for a few weeks until they finished another round of adventures.
So a 6th level Magic User with a shop with 50,000 XP will have a 5,000d inventory. Note I compute inventory on the basis of creation cost not sale cost. Which is why the below has a bigger total sale value. Note that a laborer will each 24d per month.
+2 Medium Shield (1560d)
Gem of Seeing (4,000d)
Gauntlets of Ogre Power (3,000d)
Scroll of Magic Missile (200d)
Potion of Animal Control (500d)
Potion of Healing (400d)
1 viz (see my Blackmarsh setting for how viz works basically 1 viz allows you to cast 1 1st level spell you have memorized without expending the slot or can be applied toward reducing the magic item creation costs.)
If the viz, Potion of Healing, and Gauntlets of Ogre Power were sold I would roll the following for next month's inventory. And replace the sold value with new items starting with the lowest cost Item.
Next Month's potential inventory.
-2 Cursed Staff (3003d)
+2 Medium Shield (1560d)
Prodd with +1 damage only (538d)
Mace with +1 damage only (313d)
Scroll of Light (200d)
Potion of Ethereality (1,000d)
Potion of Flying (1,000d)
Potion of Healing (400d)
Potion of Healing (400d)
Potion of Invisibility (500d)
2 viz
So next month inventory will look like
+2 Medium Shield (1560d)
Gem of Seeing (4,000d)
Scroll of Magic Missile (200d)
Potion of Animal Control (500d)
Potion of Ethereality (1,000d)
Potion of Flying (1,000d)
Potion of Healing (400d)
Potion of Healing (400d)
Potion of Invisibility (500d)
2 viz