I pulled the following from a thread in Design and Development that I didn't want to blow off the track:
Quote from: Sigmund;241494I'm going to be moving to an area where I could potentially be joining a 2nd weekly gaming group and have been looking over games such as Starcluster and Hard Nova, but what I've really wanted is a more limited setting that sounds much like what you've described so far.
To me, the cool thing about a big setting isn't that you go flitting from system to system like a bee pollinating flowers, it's that you get to
pick what place within your setting that you develop and play in. I've been running StarCluster for over a decade - since well before I released it - and we almost never run a travalogue campaign. We usually focus on a single system or even a single world for a campaign, and often revisit these worlds repeatedly. It's a whole world, after all, not just a space port! My last SC campaign was set on Glorianna, and never ventured more than about 50 km from a provincial capital - a city about the size of Birmingham, Alabama. The Book of Jalan, Sweet Chariot, and the forthcoming Glorianna are all complete games set on single worlds within the Cluster. Chariot and Glorianna are actually neighbors in the same system, as is the supplement Papageniopolis Station.
-clash
That's a great point that was brought home to me when I first ran Traveller. I generated an entire sector, sketched out politics, wrote a little about each system, etc. I felt like I was ready for anything the players could think to do, and was ready to run a wide-ranging campaign that would have the PCs visiting and interacting with various human and alien cultures on different planets and in different environments.
Over the course of several months' play, however, most of the game took place within a single star system. I think they used the Jump Drive on their ship three times in total, and those were short 1 parsec jumps. But we had plenty of adventure, and no one came away from the game disappointed.
I've since moved away from trying to define huge swaths of setting because of this experience. If you provide enough hooks and threads for the players to grab in one place, there's a good chance they won't have a reason to leave!
In about 10 years of running an on-and-off Traveller campaign in the Spinward Marches, I think my players jumped out of the Sword Worlds and District 268 subsectors a grand total of two times, and one of those was just for an annual overhaul. And I don't think they visited more than a quarter of all the systems even in those two subsectors.
Making up great mega-settings is a fun game in itself, but 99.99% of it will always remain wallpaper.
Quote from: KenHR;241613That's a great point that was brought home to me when I first ran Traveller. I generated an entire sector, sketched out politics, wrote a little about each system, etc. I felt like I was ready for anything the players could think to do, and was ready to run a wide-ranging campaign that would have the PCs visiting and interacting with various human and alien cultures on different planets and in different environments.
Over the course of several months' play, however, most of the game took place within a single star system. I think they used the Jump Drive on their ship three times in total, and those were short 1 parsec jumps. But we had plenty of adventure, and no one came away from the game disappointed.
I've since moved away from trying to define huge swaths of setting because of this experience. If you provide enough hooks and threads for the players to grab in one place, there's a good chance they won't have a reason to leave!
Aliens! Here's an example - the SC setting has many advanced aliens - the Tommu, Kolusien, Tumentamenata, Tappi, Ven Der Opt, Kiskit, Tumuran, Ronaure, Uramkup, Guaru, Kertu-Drua, Etvar, and Formenai, yet over more than a decade, my group has only had meetings with one Tumentamenata, one Ven Der Opt, one Kertu-Drua, and several each of the Guaru, Etvar, and Tumuran. Why? My group never went to anyplace those other aliens are common. The singular meetings were with wandering aliens far from home. Until you mentioned creating aliens as background, I hadn't even realized this. The PCs met and conversed with the three singulars, fought alongside the Guaru, had their ship improved by the Etvar (for their own political reasons) with an absolute minimum of contact, and had several bizarre and inexplicable contacts* with the Tumuran, who are - in the words of one of my players - "bugfuck crazy!"
-clash
*Tumutan minds work differently than most of the humans and other aliens, and they have only the most sketchy ideas of how things work for others. Once they tried to siphon water from the ship's swimming pool after coming alongside in a stealth craft, bypassing the airlock entrance alarms, and leaving the airlock open between ships. Another time they swarmed the ship, took the ship's pilot station, and left in it's place a crate of garbage. They probably would have left something for the swimming pool water, but things degenerated too quickly that time... A sketchy concept of the word "trade."
Quote from: Vile;241655In about 10 years of running an on-and-off Traveller campaign in the Spinward Marches, I think my players jumped out of the Sword Worlds and District 268 subsectors a grand total of two times, and one of those was just for an annual overhaul. And I don't think they visited more than a quarter of all the systems even in those two subsectors.
Making up great mega-settings is a fun game in itself, but 99.99% of it will always remain wallpaper.
I'm glad I'm not alone here - though I was sure I wasn't! :D
-clash
I do a combination of both although my "travelogue" is usually in space (stations, abandoned ships, on board adventures). I do agree, the thought I had, and one of the reasons I limited Neb to a relatively small area of space, was that the GM would create his own words. I have several groups that have dropped Neb as a sector in Traveller. This is precisely the kind of thing i was shooting for.
I will admit though, I sometimes think the market craves a focused metaplot more than the open setting.
Bill
Quote from: HinterWelt;241685I do a combination of both although my "travelogue" is usually in space (stations, abandoned ships, on board adventures).
Same here. My Travelogues seldom set foot on a planet.
QuoteI do agree, the thought I had, and one of the reasons I limited Neb to a relatively small area of space, was that the GM would create his own words. I have several groups that have dropped Neb as a sector in Traveller. This is precisely the kind of thing i was shooting for.
For the same reason I only gave one system fully fleshed out in StarCluster 2 - as an example of what the GMs could do with their own areas. The rest of the Cluster is just statblocks.
QuoteI will admit though, I sometimes think the market craves a focused metaplot more than the open setting.
Bill
I hope not. I really hate those thing! More designers dictating play to the groups! :P
-clash
Does anyone have the opposite experience?
-clash
Yeah, if I use a big setting I want my players to explore some of it. That's the whole thing about big settings for me. Sure you can choose a place and set your adventures there, but esp for space campaigns....space opera at that....I want the pcs to walk...er....fly through space getting into adventures and stuff.
Regards,
David R
When I ran Stardrive, my players used to travel all over. They were loosely employed by the Scout Service, and so used to explore and document far-flung planets and had run-ins with hostile aliens quite often actually. I've been looking more for "post-cyberpunk" type of scifi to run soon, along the lines of Minority Report, or I Robot.
Back in my Traveller days, my group loved planet-hopping. Knowing there is this huge universe to explore is one of the main reasons I like scifi RPGs. Exploring a single planet at length can be cool, I won't dispute that, but being able to move among the stars is very appealing. I guess playing fantasy and/or modern-era RPGs satisfies my need to explore a single world in detail.
Quote from: ColonelHardisson;242080Back in my Traveller days, my group loved planet-hopping. Knowing there is this huge universe to explore is one of the main reasons I like scifi RPGs. Exploring a single planet at length can be cool, I won't dispute that, but being able to move among the stars is very appealing. I guess playing fantasy and/or modern-era RPGs satisfies my need to explore a single world in detail.
What the Col. said. I'm the same way, if there's a big galaxy to explore, I'm damn well gonna explore it. Gimme a fast ship with big guns and lotsa wierd aliens to blast into goo and I'll be happy.
I think that's one of the more shameful aspects of Star Wars gaming--people end up going to Tatooine, or Coruscant, or somewhere we've seen; rarely do people branch out and give us new bits in the games (tabletop or video)
For me, I like exploring new planets--new things, but I also like re-occuring people, and relationships coming to the forefront. It might be neat to run a game where the players are the "planet hoppers" of a big ship, or the "beam down" crew, so to speak. They have relationships aboard ship,and get carried around--the story is about them, but the ship itself and its backup crew? They form the central backdrop for the emotional ties, and ongoing complications.
I'm not crazy about the Novel Dune but I think it's a good example (especially because nearly everyone's read it) of how even in a giant ass setting big things tend to happen in small places. Lots of Jack Vance novels follow a similar model, although usually not with such far ranging consequences. The Caldwell Chronicles (Armanita Station, Ecce and Old Earth, and Throy) are good examples of this. There is plenty of world hopping in the these, but it has a starting point that gives the moving about a bit more relevance. If leaving home is going to really mean something, I think taking some time to establish "home" as a place is necessary to facilitate said meaning. BTW, in the context of what I'm talking about "home" doesn't have to be any particular character's place of origin- or any character's place of origin really, but it has to be a place around which some of the adventure pivots- it can even be a ship as opposed to being a world. Blahblahblahblahblah.
Is this still about space opera settings?
'cause honestly the same phenomenon tends to occur in most games I run, no difference whether it is a space opera or a game of intrigue at court. Characters tend to flock to places where the shit hits the fan.
Jumping off from Aos's comments, it's kind of interesting, for me, to compare the three longish fantasy campaigns I played in the 80's.
First one: set on a continent with nations surrounding an inland sea. Characters hailed from all over but ended up making their "home base" on the central island nation. Adventures typically involved some kind of seed or hook that took us to one of the surrounding coasts, so we got to know the flavor of different lands over the course of several visits.
Second one: set in a much smaller area, maybe a few thousand square miles (thus the map was less than 100 miles on a side). Premise explicitly involved dealing with a vast empire that stretched off-map but was only relevant as a "bad guy" faction locally. I can't really say we got to know this setting any better than the previous one, although the narrative was more tightly developed--less picaresque/episodic, more focused on a single conflict. As well, the the setting elements were more closely linked to each other. (I.e., all the major NPCs pretty much knew each other.)
Third one: set on an entire continent, the course of the campaign basically took us from one end to another, without revisiting. For me this wasn't quite as satisfying as the other two. It's hard to compare since each game was a different GM, and this one was an entirely new group, but I think the way things worked out, it had a very "patchwork" feel, where the setting of one week's adventure had little relationship at all to the setting of an previous week's.
Cool! There's definitely a mix of how to treat a big setting - some preferring travel and others a more "get to know it in depth" approach. I think they are another example of tastes in playstyles.
-clash
Quote from: flyingmice;242119Cool! There's definitely a mix of how to treat a big setting - some preferring travel and others a more "get to know it in depth" approach. I think they are another example of tastes in playstyles.
-clash
Now that I'm older, I'd love to run a scifi campaign which spent more time on any given planet. It's too bad that my old group from years ago has scattered on the wind.
I like both forms of Sci-fi Space Opera campaigns. There is a lot of fun having the players build/design a space ship and then get to fly it about the big wide cosmos.
If I do a travelogue I always love introducing the concept of how big space is (I use an old star map of all stars out to 20 light years and their relative distance off a z-axis which can be found here (http://www.daisy.freeserve.co.uk/starmap.gif) .. one day I would love a full 3D holo display on the middle of the table to display it though :))
But I also like doing the flipside of that and have some dirt-sucking players explore some awesomely huge city or explore some strange new worlds.
Man I love sci-fi =)
Quote from: tellius;242233I like both forms of Sci-fi Space Opera campaigns. There is a lot of fun having the players build/design a space ship and then get to fly it about the big wide cosmos.
If I do a travelogue I always love introducing the concept of how big space is (I use an old star map of all stars out to 20 light years and their relative distance off a z-axis which can be found here (http://www.daisy.freeserve.co.uk/starmap.gif) .. one day I would love a full 3D holo display on the middle of the table to display it though :))
But I also like doing the flipside of that and have some dirt-sucking players explore some awesomely huge city or explore some strange new worlds.
Man I love sci-fi =)
Same here! SF is my favorite genre, even though I'm more known for historical games these days. :D
-clash
One thing that I really didn't like about Fading Suns (http://www.fading-suns.com/) (and other games with big settings) is the seeming need to fill in every last square inch with canonical details, leaving little to the individual GM. While such settings may be entertaining to read about, as a GM I prefer RPG toolkits with simple, elegant rules that are not very crunchy, and big but only slightly sketched-out settings that I and the players can fill in as we go--I usually make up my own settings anyway, but a light sketch is nice as a starting point.
*****
On another note, I've been shopping around for Space Opera games myself, specifically ones that are currently available and are not media franchise tie-ins. So far I've got:
Star Frontiers (available for free at StarFrontiers.com (http://www.starfrontiers.com/) and Star Frontiersman (http://www.starfrontiersman.com/))
StarCluster2 (http://www.flyingmice.com/starcluster.html)
HardNova 2 (http://www.pigames.net/store/default.php?cPath=32)
Starblazer Adventures (http://www.cubicle-7.com/starblazer.htm) (I suppose this technically counts as a media tie-in, but the game is sufficiently generic and the media it's tied to is long enough dead that I figure it's fine.)
Traveller (http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/home/series.php?qsSeries=51) (Link is to Mongoose Traveller, though I'm aware of the others.)
Thousand Suns (http://www.rogue-games.net/othergames2.html)
Fading Suns (http://www.fading-suns.com/)
StarSiege (http://www.trolllord.com/newsite/siege/7501.html)
Not to mention the various generic games such as Hero, GURPS, BESM, etc.
Any other suggestions?
Edit: Of course, the meaning of "currently available" changes with the existence of Drive Thru RPG and RPGNow ...
Quote from: tellius;242233If I do a travelogue I always love introducing the concept of how big space is (I use an old star map of all stars out to 20 light years and their relative distance off a z-axis which can be found here (http://www.daisy.freeserve.co.uk/starmap.gif) .. .
Dead link. :(
Quote from: Roman;249466One thing that I really didn't like about Fading Suns (http://www.fading-suns.com/) (and other games with big settings) is the seeming need to fill in every last square inch with canonical details, leaving little to the individual GM. While such settings may be entertaining to read about, as a GM I prefer RPG toolkits with simple, elegant rules that are not very crunchy, and big but only slightly sketched-out settings that I and the players can fill in as we go--I usually make up my own settings anyway, but a light sketch is nice as a starting point.
That's one of the reasons I set up StarCluster 2 the way I did, with only one system fleshed out, and the other 116 systems only set up in stat blocks. I figured it was the best balance between too much information and not enough. The one system was to serve as an example of how to flesh out the stat blocks. Critics - aside from the Pundit - didn't like that, but I didn't write the game for them anyway.
I would add Nebuleon from Hinterwelt to that list, and would recommend you look closely at it as well as at Hard Nova ][, which is already there.
-clash
Quote from: flyingmice;249537I would add Nebuleon from Hinterwelt to that list, and would recommend you look closely at it as well as at Hard Nova ][, which is already there.
-clash
Fair enough - I'll give them a look. Thanks!
Quote from: flyingmice;249537I would add Nebuleon from Hinterwelt to that list, and would recommend you look closely at it as well as at Hard Nova ][, which is already there.
-clash
If Roman is interested, http://neb.hinterwelt.com/ and our CHARGen at http://www.hinterwelt.com/CHARGen/
Let me know if you have questions.
Bill
Quote from: HinterWelt;249578If Roman is interested, http://neb.hinterwelt.com/ and our CHARGen at http://www.hinterwelt.com/CHARGen/
Let me know if you have questions.
Bill
I will take a look - thank you!. I particularly like the online storage system. I'm surprised nobody else (that I'm aware of) has tried the same thing.
In our D20 Star Wars campaign we did absolutely bucketloads of travelling, we wanted to see everything, that was definitely a major part of the appeal.
BUT
Our first half dozen or so adventures were all on the one planet, and we always had a base that we played from and figured heavily in our play, as opposed to just being nomads. The base seemed to change a lot though, every five levels or so, I'd say.
I've never been in a Space game that stayed in one place. It's always been move move move. In Star Wars, this is because the Empire finds and destroys whatever you were working on unless you can hyperspace it to a new location. In other games like Alternity and uh something else, the players were either con-men who wanted to outrun their reputations or traders in search of the next big thing.
From playing Ars Magica, I'm more tuned into the idea of making a home base and telling cyclical stories so if I ever ran another space game (currently low priority) I'd have a couple of locations for the PCs to visit and revisit.
It looks like there's two different types of stories with Space Opera. One where you move from place to place, never staying long in any one place. Let's call this the Star Trek model.
Then there's the home base model, where the players move out from their home world to others, then back. Let's call this the Babylon 5 model.
Are there others?
-clash
QuoteNot to mention the various generic games such as Hero, GURPS, BESM, etc.
Any other suggestions?
If you're a fan of the Palladium ruleset, you might consider picking up their Mutants in Orbit book. It's divided 50/50 for After the Bomb and Rifts, detaling what the orbital community, moon, and mars look like for both settings. If you've got a copy of Rifts or TMNT& Other Strangeness, you've got everything you need to run the setting in the book. You could also just use the background in Mutants in Orbit and run it as straight hard sci-fi.
If you want a more galaxy spanning campaign, I'd also suggest the TMNT Guide to the Universe and Transdimensional TMNT as two other books to pick up. Palladium has put out various "Aliens Unlimited" books as well, but I've never used any of them so can't comment too much.
Availabilty: Mutants in Orbit is in print and available off the Palladium website. TMNT&OS, TMNT Guide to the Universe, and Transdimensional TMNT are all out of print but available second hand through the usual sources- ebay, amazon, etc.
Quote from: wulfgar;250017If you're a fan of the Palladium ruleset, you might consider picking up their Mutants in Orbit book. It's divided 50/50 for After the Bomb and Rifts, detaling what the orbital community, moon, and mars look like for both settings. If you've got a copy of Rifts or TMNT& Other Strangeness, you've got everything you need to run the setting in the book. You could also just use the background in Mutants in Orbit and run it as straight hard sci-fi.
If you want a more galaxy spanning campaign, I'd also suggest the TMNT Guide to the Universe and Transdimensional TMNT as two other books to pick up. Palladium has put out various "Aliens Unlimited" books as well, but I've never used any of them so can't comment too much.
Availabilty: Mutants in Orbit is in print and available off the Palladium website. TMNT&OS, TMNT Guide to the Universe, and Transdimensional TMNT are all out of print but available second hand through the usual sources- ebay, amazon, etc.
While I love Mutants in Orbit to death, wulfgar, I would hardly call it Space Opera. OTOH, I heartily second the recommendation to pick these games up, as they totally rock! TMNT&OS is one of the top ten RPGs of all time in my book.
-clash
Quote from: flyingmice;250015It looks like there's two different types of stories with Space Opera. One where you move from place to place, never staying long in any one place. Let's call this the Star Trek model.
Then there's the home base model, where the players move out from their home world to others, then back. Let's call this the Babylon 5 model.
Are there others?
-clash
Star Wars points of intrest: there are a couple of planets (like Tatooine) that are revisited several times, but none of them is actualy a home base.
Star Blazers: There and back again.
Odyssey: You go from place to place, but always in the direction of home.
Hunter: You're in persuit of something that moves around. This could be a railroad game, or one where cagey detective work wins the day by getting one step ahead.
Hunted: You've got to stay one step ahead of the Empire, but if you get a large enough lead, then you set up camp and get some real work done.
Pirate: You're the hunter
and the hunted.
Yeah, that's why I made sure to mention it covered the orbital community. Which is a very different space setting then you usually get. In Mutants in Orbit the asteroid belt is a long way off, anything beyond that is pretty much entirely unexplored.
Of course, if you put Mutants in Orbit, TMNT Guide to the Universe, and Transdimensional TMNT in a blender, I think you could get a pretty rocking space opera game out of it. Guide to the Universe is pretty space operay on it's own the the intergalactic war going on and all.
Quote from: Malleus Arianorum;250022Star Wars points of intrest: there are a couple of planets (like Tatooine) that are revisited several times, but none of them is actualy a home base.
True. A slight variation on the StarTrek model.
QuoteStar Blazers: There and back again.
Assuming you mean the Anime series and not the Brit comic, this is kind of halfway between the two. You have a home, but instead of a bunch of loops out and back, there is one big loop.
QuoteOdyssey: You go from place to place, but always in the direction of home.
Another variation on the StarTrek model.
QuoteHunter: You're in persuit of something that moves around. This could be a railroad game, or one where cagey detective work wins the day by getting one step ahead.
This could be done using either the StarTrek or Babylon 5 model, but isn't a model in itself.
QuoteHunted: You've got to stay one step ahead of the Empire, but if you get a large enough lead, then you set up camp and get some real work done.
Same as Hunter, as this is the flip side of that coin.
QuotePirate: You're the hunter and the hunted.
Again, this could be played either way.
-clash
Quote from: wulfgar;250025Yeah, that's why I made sure to mention it covered the orbital community. Which is a very different space setting then you usually get. In Mutants in Orbit the asteroid belt is a long way off, anything beyond that is pretty much entirely unexplored.
Of course, if you put Mutants in Orbit, TMNT Guide to the Universe, and Transdimensional TMNT in a blender, I think you could get a pretty rocking space opera game out of it. Guide to the Universe is pretty space operay on it's own the the intergalactic war going on and all.
Yep - The Triceraton/Utrom/etc. galactic business is definitely Space Opera. :D
-clash
Thanks, Wulfgar - I'll take a look.
It isn't an RPG but for an evocative Space Opera setting you can't do much better than The Dragon Never Sleeps by Glenn Cook (author of the black company books). It does a very good job of twisting many standard Space Opera trops (especially the role of humans in the galaxy).
Quote from: flyingmice;250015It looks like there's two different types of stories with Space Opera. One where you move from place to place, never staying long in any one place. Let's call this the Star Trek model.
Then there's the home base model, where the players move out from their home world to others, then back. Let's call this the Babylon 5 model.
Are there others?
-clash
You defined two large types, basically, moving around and not. So, yeah, most all will fit one or the other. You could say this for any game. You have moving around (caravan guard) and home base (dungeon delves). The devil is in the details.
I have run games where the group found an abandoned dreadnought and we spent 2 years (IRL) going through it. By the end, they were using found weaponry (ammo had long since been exhausted), had lost half the group to be replaced with an bio-bot, a Builder (what they called the original builders) and a member from an alien team who had gone in before them and all died. Now, I imagine that might be the home base version or maybe not even Space Opera but it was plenty strange. ;)
Bill
Quote from: HinterWelt;250818You defined two large types, basically, moving around and not. So, yeah, most all will fit one or the other. You could say this for any game. You have moving around (caravan guard) and home base (dungeon delves). The devil is in the details.
I have run games where the group found an abandoned dreadnought and we spent 2 years (IRL) going through it. By the end, they were using found weaponry (ammo had long since been exhausted), had lost half the group to be replaced with an bio-bot, a Builder (what they called the original builders) and a member from an alien team who had gone in before them and all died. Now, I imagine that might be the home base version or maybe not even Space Opera but it was plenty strange. ;)
Bill
Actually, I think there's three models - You keep moving and never stop long, you stay in one place, and you use one place for a base, going out but always returning home.
-clash
How much of your game takes place onboard the character's ship can impact the style of the campaign a lot too. The ship can simply be a plot device that moves you from one adventure to another, or if you flesh it out enough, it can be just as much a home base as a planet would. Look at how many Star Trek adventures take place pretty much entirely on the ship. That kind of blurs the lines between the different styles mentioned. You get to go around to all different planets, but you also have a home base- which moves with you- the ship.
Quote from: flyingmice;250936Actually, I think there's three models - You keep moving and never stop long, you stay in one place, and you use one place for a base, going out but always returning home.
-clash
See, I think you are making an artificial divide there. Regardless, it is still high enough level that you can group any adventure under them. I don't know if that has a lot of use. Something closer to the theme of the adventure, like "Explore alien ship" might be more helpful in looking at how campaigns are modeled and the differences between them.
Of course, I could also be talking out my ass. ;)
Bill
Quote from: HinterWelt;250950See, I think you are making an artificial divide there. Regardless, it is still high enough level that you can group any adventure under them. I don't know if that has a lot of use. Something closer to the theme of the adventure, like "Explore alien ship" might be more helpful in looking at how campaigns are modeled and the differences between them.
Of course, I could also be talking out my ass. ;)
Bill
I agree with you there. To me Firefly didn't have this divide. The ship was their home and they kept moving. When your home is a ship though you can have the best of both worlds I guess. Despite how large their world seemed, to me it always felt like they stuck to their hometown, even regular neighborhoods have those people who seem to be everywhere and just always seem to be around when interesting things happen. I never felt the crew of Serenity were travelling far but they still never stopped travelling for long.
Kinda proves that in the right context you can have that big setting feel without actually having to explore the whole setting. You can pick a nice corner of the universe and make it yours.
Then again I could be wrong, I didn't delve behind the show and film looking for more in depth setting information. I do think however the appeal of the show (for me) was the fact that the world never seemed bigger than the characters themselves.