I am a bit curious about this, as I have never played anything from Palladium. But for years I have rarely seen a company with more controversy surrounding the fandom, rules discussions etc. so I also thought that it looked a bit like a hornet's nest. Rifts is he big one that I always noticed, but it seems like......a bit of a mess? Is it a fun mess at least? What about the other games?
Here's a full list of everything I've enjoyed from Palladium over the years:
1) TMNT back in the early 90s
2) Robotech back in the early 90s
3) ...
OK, done now.
I've played Rifts and the core Palladium RPG.
Rifts is a great setting, but I hated the rules, which were a mess.
I've since had a go at Savage Rifts, but it feels all tacked together, so it's equally crap.
I'd love to see a DnD 5e supplement for Rifts.
Palladium, well, the setting is fun, the rules are a horrible mash up of ADnD, but the guy who ran it wayback ion the 80s was a great GM, so that didn't matter so much.
But even so, the rules sucked.
So yeah, great setting, horrible rules, but if you have a really good GM , the horrible rules can be mitigated somewhat.
Quote from: Trond;1043647I am a bit curious about this, as I have never played anything from Palladium. But for years I have rarely seen a company with more controversy surrounding the fandom, rules discussions etc. so I also thought that it looked a bit like a hornet's nest. Rifts is he big one that I always noticed, but it seems like......a bit of a mess? Is it a fun mess at least?
Yep. That's what makes it fun!
QuoteWhat about the other games?
Robotech is eh, ok. The system doesn't do mecha combat at all well. But it's got all the mechs statted up.
Nightbane is really cool. If you've seen the movie Nightbreed, it's like that, with more action and government coverups of sinister forces trying to take over the world. I'd say it out-supernaturals, Beyond The Supernatural.
I only really liked their illustrated weapons & armor and castles books, and a few details in their RPG (which otherwise rolled & melted my eyes).
It is a very simple system and pretty easy to GM. Especially the older stuff.
Personal Favourites.
Beyond the Supernatural: Ghost Busters meets The Night Stalker and X-Files. Supernatural mayhem in the pre-Rifts earth. Overall a good setup and nothing seems too overpowered as long as the DM knows that they are doing. Some of the classes are pretty potent though in certain situations. I GMed this alot way back and the group was composed of two normal people with lots of tech and one latent psychic. Great fun.
Robotech: And all the setting books covering Macross, Southern Cross and Mouspeda and then Sentinels and Macross II. Does mecha combat pretty well and allows for adventuring in and out of the cockpit. GMed this a fair bit too.
TMNT and After the Bomb: Based on the original comics. Not the cartoons or Archie comics. After the Bomb plays like a sort of prototype Rifts in some ways. The setting was later re-released as its own book. GMed this once.
Rifts: This is a sort of ANYTHING! setting. It covers supers, mechs, mutants, aliens, horrors, robots, cyborgs, animal people, and eventually other worlds and more. Seriously needs a DM who knows when to say "No" and much like Gurps, a DM who is willing to prune the giant tree down to something manageable. Tons of setting books for it. Some really good and some so-so.
The Palladium Fantasy Roleplaying Game first edition - who thinks elegant when they think of Palladium?
The Mechanoid Invasion Book III - Wait! Two Pages? The rules minus charts, races, and classes are two pages?
Dead Reign and Robotech are great representations of the otherwise somewhat disorganised Megaversal System. Or After the Bomb, which might be my favourite Post-Apo RPG. These are 3 good games.
Now Rifts of course is the crown jewel and IMO rightfully so. That's a game where you can literally take an adventure--any adventure--and just drop it into Rifts Earth.
I happen to have a soft spot for Beyond the Supernatural, even though the 2nd edition is infamously incomplete for over a decade. It's a cool game to run supernatural horror with; even Cthulhu.
Palladium Fantasy 2nd Ed uses the Megaversal System, while 1st Ed uses the system which eventually grew into the Megaversal System. 1st Ed is one of the better D&D-likes from the early days of the hobby. It also helps in understanding certain conventions established by the Megaversal system later on.
The Megaversal system is very simple and combat (while feeling dated in the sense that it isn't streamlined for the sake of being steamlined) is engaging and rich in options. Character Creation is a mess, but if you want to dip your toes into the system and get a feel for it, you can run a game of pre-gens with the Rifts Primer (http://www.rpgnow.com/product/204381/RiftsR-Primer--How-to-Play-RiftsR-and-Create-Adventures?manufacturers_id=2627) and a Core Rulebook (really both the old rulebook and ultimate edition are fine, though ultimate edition has made some minor changes to the system).
The rules are a mess...but they work if you take a hammer to them. They houserule easily and you're expected to run the game your way. I'm on the Palladium boards and I've been a Palladium GM for a long time and everybody has their houserules (including Kevin).
Palladium has excellent settings. RIFTS is awesome and absolutely worth a look. Pick up a used core book via eBay cheap. I am also a big fan of Palladium Fantasy 1e and the original Mechanoids RPG which is bare bones, but brilliant.
Nightbane is a favorite because chargen is crazy fun and its World of Darkness minus the angst. Trenchcoats and katanas, releasing your inner monster, being hated by real monsters and feared by the innocent, all sorts of fun stuff.
Splicers and Systems Failure are both solid games. Splicers is custom biotech armor vs. robots controlled by multiple insane competing AIs. Systems Failure is the Y2K virus post-apocalypse where giant bugs came from another dimension through our electrical lines. Now we live without electricity, trying to reclaim the world from the bugs who round humans up for food and breeding.
Quote from: Omega;1043662Rifts: This is a sort of ANYTHING! setting. It covers supers, mechs, mutants, aliens, horrors, robots, cyborgs, animal people, and eventually other worlds and more. Seriously needs a DM who knows when to say "No" and much like Gurps, a DM who is willing to prune the giant tree down to something manageable. Tons of setting books for it. Some really good and some so-so.
Say No in Rifts? Trim the tree? Rifts is the one game I've never had to say No or Trim. Rifts is where you can run a Magnificent Seven campaign where the seven are:
A Robotech Master
A Dragon
Boba Fett
A Cosmo-Knight
A Space Marine Librarian
Thor
Joe the Vagabond
Quote from: Spinachcat;1043684The rules are a mess...but they work if you take a hammer to them. They houserule easily and you're expected to run the game your way. I'm on the Palladium boards and I've been a Palladium GM for a long time and everybody has their houserules (including Kevin).
I trust your authority on this, but the only thing that I find messy is the integration of hit locations.
Palladium has a lot of good stuff in there. Some of it's just good ideas, some of it's fun game stuff.
The old Teenaged Mutant Ninja Turtle books have all been fun, as well as the After the Bomb game that the line pivoted to after they lost the TMNT license. (This means that there's actually two After the Bomb books, one as a TMNT supplement, and one that's a stand-alone game.) This is especially recommended if you like the old TMNT comics. (Although I've got to say, I've been reading the recent TMNT books by IDW, and enjoying them.)
Palladium Fantasy Roleplaying Game has some good stuff in there. Bill Coffin's an author to watch for - for instance his Library of Bletherad is packed with interesting ideas. Check his wikipedia page for a list of what he's worked on.
Rifts, of course, is a mad collection of fantastic stuff. Speaking of madness, Rifts Madhaven is a fantastic book - New York City got hit *hard* by the emergence of the rifts, and the city is poisoned with evil energy and ghosts. But if you can get inside, there's some fantastic stuff going on in Central Park. Additionally, check out the dimension books - Wormwood was created with the ideas and art of Tim Truman, a fantastic writer and artist from indie comics. Phase World takes Rifts into a SciFi/Fantasy dimension that let's you travel across a bright, if dangerous, future instead of grubbing around in the muck of Earth. Once again, I'll suggest following the work of C.J. Carella, who was prolific and inventive author. He also created the inventive Nightbane game for Palladium.
Palladium games I own that I had fun playing:
Palladium Fantasy 1st edition
Rifts
After the Bomb
TMNT
Robotech
Ninjas and Superspies
Palladium games I own that I did NOT have fun playing:
Beyond the Supernatural
Palladium Fantasy Revised & 2nd (yuck x1000)
Ambivalent Feelings:
Mechanoids
Macross
Quote from: CRKrueger;1043688Say No in Rifts? Trim the tree? Rifts is the one game I've never had to say No or Trim. Rifts is where you can run a Magnificent Seven campaign where the seven are:
A Robotech Master
A Dragon
Boba Fett
A Cosmo-Knight
A Space Marine Librarian
Thor
Joe the Vagabond
(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/012/542/thumb-up-terminator_pablo_M_R.jpg)
Rifts is the game where a GM and the players can let their hair down and channel their inner 12 year old.
1E Palladium FRP (NOT 2E!!!), plus a couple of its early supplements and the Arms and Armor book (though it is seriously weird that they didn't make that book directly compatible with PFRP...)
I can't really think of too many bad systems/settings from Palladium (caveat that I've never played Fantasy). My favorites, probably in order:
Rifts
Ninjas and Superspies
Nightbane
Beyond the Supernatural
Manhunter
Edit: sorry I should add that just about EVERYTHING from Palladium has been used in Rifts.
Nothing wrong with Palladium Fantasy 2e, the fluff didn't really fall off. Pretty much all Bill Coffin's work will make you want to get into a game and start rolling dice like a 14 year old again.
Quote from: CRKrueger;1043688Say No in Rifts? Trim the tree? Rifts is the one game I've never had to say No or Trim. Rifts is where you can run a Magnificent Seven campaign where the seven are:
A Robotech Master
A Dragon
Boba Fett
A Cosmo-Knight
A Space Marine Librarian
Thor
Joe the Vagabond
I've never said No myself. But for some DMs I know handling that sort of disparity would be a hassle or impossible.
I ran a year long session of Rifts with all sorts of characters. A dragon borg, Some sort of hypermagic fox, some weird alien from Phase World, a Robotech pilot sans her mech, some sort of cyborg horse man, and a few others I'd have to check the play log to remember as its been a decade+.
And some more I have/had but never gotten to run.
Palladium Fantasy: Interesting setting. not sure what version I have. Probably 2nd. Book is not handy to check.
Recon: This one is weird as it started out as more a wargame than an RPG and then evolved over iterations. Much like Boot Hill did. Interesting game and a look at early Palladium. Original Mechanoids is something I'd like to get ahold of some day. The Rifts expansion book is interesting though.
Quote from: The_Shadow;1043821Nothing wrong with Palladium Fantasy 2e, the fluff didn't really fall off. Pretty much all Bill Coffin's work will make you want to get into a game and start rolling dice like a 14 year old again.
Correct. It unjustly gets some splash damage from people who don't like Rifts/Megaversal, but I think it's one of the most unique and complete FRPGs out there. I might be one of the few people who actually prefer it over 1E. Some of the best Palladium Fantasy setting books have been specifically written for 2E.
Plus, it has some of the best black and white interiour art in any Fantasy RPG ever.
TMNT has a lot of charm and was probably their best overall game.
Ninjas and Superspies has an awesome "Generate the spy agency you all work for" system.
Quote from: Nerzenjäger;1043696I trust your authority on this, but the only thing that I find messy is the integration of hit locations.
I've seen some GMs talk about using the RQ hit locations with Palladium's AR system.
I like all the Palladium Books games to some degree.
The rules are neither streamlined nor elegant. Though I argue they are not bad, merely idiosyncratic and poorly laid out. Scattering rules, errata and FAQ among sourcebooks and issues of The Rifter is Palladium Books' preference. However, a couple of sessions play is enough to understand them.
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles & Other Strangeness and Systems Failure were good entry level games. Both were slim books with a narrow focus (crime fighting mutant animals and alien occupation resistance respectively) and easily understood rules.
Dead Reign is my zombie apocalypse game of preference. The outbreak, collapse of society and the nature of the undead is given a lot of thought. The variety of zombies make them an evolving threat and they are (as many of my players have discovered over the years) extremely dangerous! The sourcebooks are, with the exception of Graveyard Earth, all good.
I found both incarnations of Robotech highly playable. It is true that mecha are tougher than in the anime, but I don't consider it a hanging offense.
There is a lot to like in Palladium Books' games if you can accept the occasionally obscure rules.
Adventures on High Seas is my favorite book from them. I have had fun playing TMNT and Heroes Unlimited, but my tastes have changed and now I like more consistent systems.
I always enjoyed Palladium Fantasy, 1st edition, loved the wide array of OCCs and playable character races.
the weapons compilations were very useful.
ninjas and superspies was a lot of fun, as was TMNT, but really didn't like the Bio-E system.
Nightspawn was a lot of fun for the limited time we played it
Their rules have a simple core and a hard-to-define, eccentric, very Midwestern, 80s-nerd-who-just-discovered-anime charm but they suffer TERRIBLY from poor layout and occasional unnecessary complexity, sometimes crawling way up their own ass.
The reason fans keep clamoring for a new edition is because a streamlined, simpler version really would be A GREAT MOTHERFUCKING FUN GOOFBALL GAME.
Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;1044031Their rules have a simple core and a hard-to-define, eccentric, very Midwestern, 80s-nerd-who-just-discovered-anime charm but they suffer TERRIBLY from poor layout and occasional unnecessary complexity, sometimes crawling way up their own ass.
The reason fans keep clamoring for a new edition is because a streamlined, simpler version really would be A GREAT MOTHERFUCKING FUN GOOFBALL GAME.
The core system is allready about as streamlined as it gets. It is the organization of those rules that can be a hassle.
To get a grasp on the system, just have a look at the "From The Rifts" video series by youtube channel "Maloquinn". They cover Character Creation, the Game World, Combat, etc.; not in exhaustive detail, but good enough to grasp the core concept.
Palladium is a simple game. And most things kinda work how you would expect them to work with no bells and whistles.
It's super trad.
For all those stating Robotech had a decent ruleset, one question I kept wondering decades ago when I tried it: if multiple opponents shoot missiles at you (pretty common in the source material), how do you avoid getting instantly reduced to paste?
I vaguely remember there were some dodge rules but they weren't well conceived for combat with asymmetrical numbers on each side...?
Quote from: Luca;1044057For all those stating Robotech had a decent ruleset, one question I kept wondering decades ago when I tried it: if multiple opponents shoot missiles at you (pretty common in the source material), how do you avoid getting instantly reduced to paste?
I vaguely remember there were some dodge rules but they weren't well conceived for combat with asymmetrical numbers on each side...?
You could shoot the missiles out of the sky or you could move faster. But yes, there's a good chance you're turned into paste.
Quote from: Nerzenjäger;1044065You could shoot the missiles out of the sky or you could move faster. But yes, there's a good chance you're turned into paste.
Robotech has some
very specific rules for things found in the source material. Using arms to block missile volleys, being able to shoot down 4 or less missiles in a volley, but 5+ is the magic number you can't shoot down, and you're toast, etc.
If it's in the cartoon, Siembeida probably put it in the game. But they're all bolted onto the Palladium system. The whole thing about protoculture mechs being able to double the combat attacks/effectiveness of pilots is wonky as hell, and looks/feels absolutely nothing like what was in the cartoon. In fact, the whole attacks per melee thing is one of the things I really dislike about Palladium combat. And it's hard to houserule because it's baked into a lot of classes and the HTH skills.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1044115Robotech has some very specific rules for things found in the source material. Using arms to block missile volleys, being able to shoot down 4 or less missiles in a volley, but 5+ is the magic number you can't shoot down, and you're toast, etc.
How is that compliant with the source material? There's a reason "Macross Missile Massacre (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MacrossMissileMassacre)" is a trope...
Maybe I misremember, it has been an age since I watched the series, but I vaguely seem to recall the main protagonists being these ridiculous aces who could fly through a veritable hell of enemy fire without even getting a scratch on their mecha.
I've got a special place in my collection for the original three volumes of Mechanoid Invasion. Just a crazy game in a small package.
I also like the weapons and castle books for reference, though I don't really refer to them often.
I wish I had picked up the fantasy RPG (1st ed) and maybe some of the setting supplements, though honestly, I don't know if I'd ever actually play it, but it is a great example of gonzo D&D type games.
Frank
Quote from: Luca;1044132How is that compliant with the source material? There's a reason "Macross Missile Massacre (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MacrossMissileMassacre)" is a trope...
Maybe I misremember, it has been an age since I watched the series, but I vaguely seem to recall the main protagonists being these ridiculous aces who could fly through a veritable hell of enemy fire without even getting a scratch on their mecha.
*I did a quick google to refresh my memory on the exact rule, so if I contradict myself, that's why*
It's the odd arbitrariness of the rules. You cannot dodge a missile volley of 4+ missiles. Therefore it's a good tactic for an attacker to launch in volleys of 4 or more, to deny their target a dodge roll. So under the Palladium Robotech rules, you cannot fly through a veritable hell of enemy fire, unless it's very specifically volleys of 3 or less.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1044140*I did a quick google to refresh my memory on the exact rule, so if I contradict myself, that's why*
It's the odd arbitrariness of the rules. You cannot dodge a missile volley of 4+ missiles. Therefore it's a good tactic for an attacker to launch in volleys of 4 or more, to deny their target a dodge roll. So under the Palladium Robotech rules, you cannot fly through a veritable hell of enemy fire, unless it's very specifically volleys of 3 or less.
Man, just reading that makes me want to run a Palladium game.
Quote from: Nerzenjäger;1044142Man, just reading that makes me want to run a Palladium game.
Knock yourself out, man. :) It's not a bad system, like I said, it's just got a lot of what feel like house rules bolted on over the years.
Quote from: Nerzenjäger;1044065You could shoot the missiles out of the sky or you could move faster. But yes, there's a good chance you're turned into paste.
Yep, shoot the missiles, dodge, and if you had them, use counter missiles.
And just dont get on the receiving end of a missile barrage. Or any concentrated barrage at all. :cool:
Valley of the Pharaohs is quite good if you want historical ancient Egypt.
I like Beyond the Supernatural 1st Edition and Mechanoids as well.
Quote from: Luca;1044132How is that compliant with the source material? There's a reason "Macross Missile Massacre (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MacrossMissileMassacre)" is a trope...
Maybe I misremember, it has been an age since I watched the series, but I vaguely seem to recall the main protagonists being these ridiculous aces who could fly through a veritable hell of enemy fire without even getting a scratch on their mecha.
Its compliant because its most oft used against the Zentran rather than against the Macross forces. Zentran were mostly beam based. Think some of the Meltran had missile pods? Been ages. The characters could dodge beam fire quite a bit.
And in the movie the Zentan actually do shoot down incomming missiles in an opening mass salvo. In the series you'll note the pilots tended to more often pop off a spread at close range or to shake off a tail. Sometimes they worked, sometimes they didnt. And the Macross pilots died alot too. Just not as much as the Zentan.
Honestly almost all of Palladium's games are very good, but you have to know how to play/run them.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1044638Honestly almost all of Palladium's games are very good, but you have to know how to play/run them.
And there's new Nightbane and Splicers stuff out, too. Both of these games happen to be excellent.
Somewhere I have Palladium Fantasy 1st ed alonf with the bestiary and Old Ones and High Seas.
I would playe thata again tomorrow but were somebody to put it together in a re-write. Say a 3rd edition kickstarter, I would buy that.
I must be one of the only people who doesn't like Palladium. In my opinion, the system is dreadful. D&D's cloned brother that went terribly wrong the womb. It's as clunky as hell!
That said, they always had a few interesting concepts. And offered some interesting takes on the fantasy Genre which I quite liked. Rifts at its core game was good. But was dogged by ever-expanding non-sense. It wasn't sure if it wanted to be a mecha game or TMNT 2 or some weird horror.
The two big problems that plague Palladium (in my personal opinion). 1) Is the manky system. 2) That Kevin Siembieda really NEEDS an editor to cut out (or tame down) the bad and over the top ideas.
YMMV of course! :)
Quote from: The Exploited.;1044674I must be one of the only people who doesn't like Palladium. In my opinion, the system is dreadful. D&D's cloned brother that went terribly wrong the womb. It's as clunky as hell!
That said, they always had a few interesting concepts. And offered some interesting takes on the fantasy Genre which I quite liked. Rifts at its core game was good. But was dogged by ever-expanding non-sense. It wasn't sure if it wanted to be a mecha game or TMNT 2 or some weird horror.
The two big problems that plague Palladium (in my personal opinion). 1) Is the manky system. 2) That Kevin Siembieda really NEEDS an editor to cut out (or tame down) the bad and over the top ideas.
YMMV of course! :)
No, you are probably in the majority. This forum is an exception.
The system is very simple. But I do remember a time where I didn't get it and thought, that it must be broken.
Quote from: Nerzenjäger;1044696No, you are probably in the majority. This forum is an exception.
Moreover, Palladium Fantasy does not have a fully sponsored team of beardy cheerleaders.
[video=youtube;lzgXG0qxUiA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzgXG0qxUiA[/youtube]
Quote from: Nerzenjäger;1044696No, you are probably in the majority. This forum is an exception.
The system is very simple. But I do remember a time where I didn't get it and thought, that it must be broken.
Good to know! :)
Palladium had some very good ideas - but just badly implemented IMO. The system really could do with an update... I'm really quite surprised KS hasn't done it yet because he'd make a ton of cash redoing the whole line.
Quote from: Nerzenjäger;1044654And there's new Nightbane and Splicers stuff out, too. Both of these games happen to be excellent.
I picked up the Nightbane Survival Guide and Dark Designs. Both are good books, but I can't shake the feeling they are somehow disconnected from the older material. As if for an unpublished 2nd Edition. This is Palladium Books and there are probably half a dozen unread manuscripts for Nightbane supplements that would fill this gap that are collecting dust in Kevin's inbox alongside Mechanoids Space and Tome Grotesque.
I have used most of the I Am Legion material from issues of The Rifter. It suffers from railroading but is easily adapted into a full-fledged campaign. I see the book contains more material, certainly enough for me to buy it in print.
I've got a ton of use farming ideas out of Mystic China and the setting for Palladium RPG
Now actually playing those games for any extended length of time is not something I will claim.
This thread made me pull out my 1st edition Palladium fantasy books. Fuck, these are fantastic. Super dark, eldritch horror stuff, plausible even while having a ton of monster races...this is way better than anything similar made in the past 20 years.
Quote from: Brad;1044909This thread made me pull out my 1st edition Palladium fantasy books. Fuck, these are fantastic. Super dark, eldritch horror stuff, plausible even while having a ton of monster races...this is way better than anything similar made in the past 20 years.
I like, and use, 2nd Edition. However, I agree that 1st Edition is very good. I would have been happy had 2nd Edition never been published and the source books been for 1st Edition instead. 1st Edition Palladium Fantasy had an almost perfect mix of gritty, bloody yet heroic adventure.
Really my biggest issues with Palladium's later stuff are SDC for people (who should not have SDC ever) and physical skills that build attributes but no mental ones (yes there was that one Rifter article).
Quote from: David Johansen;1045029Really my biggest issues with Palladium's later stuff are SDC for people (who should not have SDC ever) and physical skills that build attributes but no mental ones (yes there was that one Rifter article).
Was there ever an explanation why Kevin didn't have Mental boosting skills? Gut feeling is that I'm against them but I'm not sure why...
Palladium Lite would be a great idea.
What would you keep/scrap/fix?
Quote from: Mike the Mage;1045036Palladium Lite would be a great idea.
What would you keep/scrap/fix?
Replace the term SDC with Stamina. Structural Damage Capacity sounds like an engineering term for buildings.
Remove or lower the # of HTH attacks per turn. It's escalated. Untrained gets 1, trained gets 2, and military gets 3. Add a
few when leveling up.
Lower the range of stat bonuses. This gives a reason for stats below 16 to exist at all.
Generally raise damages and lower the SDC range. I'd eyeball doubling damage dice for all weapons and attacks, and halving the amounts of SDC. I could even go for more, depending on specific examples.
Skills, my god. This is where I throw up my hands. I'd probably want to do a complete overhaul. Simplify the skill categories, and make them all a d20 roll over, so they are compatible with other bonuses/penalties.
One thing I'll say about Palladium Fantasy....
Is that I liked a lot of the character options and no other game was doing that at the time (it also was pretty dark). I remember playing a Witch and mayhem did follow. I'd definitely consider playing it again looking back at it now. But I'd try and tweak the rules a little.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1045040Replace the term SDC with Stamina. Structural Damage Capacity sounds like an engineering term for buildings.
Remove or lower the # of HTH attacks per turn. It's escalated. Untrained gets 1, trained gets 2, and military gets 3. Add a few when leveling up.
Lower the range of stat bonuses. This gives a reason for stats below 16 to exist at all.
Generally raise damages and lower the SDC range. I'd eyeball doubling damage dice for all weapons and attacks, and halving the amounts of SDC. I could even go for more, depending on specific examples.
Skills, my god. This is where I throw up my hands. I'd probably want to do a complete overhaul. Simplify the skill categories, and make them all a d20 roll over, so they are compatible with other bonuses/penalties.
The skills was where I would start. Percentages and skills seemed pretty closely linked at the time, (thief/ranger in AD&D, RQ, C&S) but what you suggest sounds spot on. As do the rest of your suggestions.
I wuld definitely keep the quirkly wizardy system, but I have yet to figure out how Diabolist (thr Rune guys, not Summoners) operate in play.
Take a look at Mechanoid Invasion Book III. It's already perfect. No, I don't mind the percentile skills and d20 to hit. What I do mind is all the extra baggage that gets layered on top of it. Palladium books are great for ideas but it should be a really light weight system. I'd bring back the skill charts with diminishing returns though. That's the main thing about percentiles is that you can cut back the gains at higher levels to stay in the dice range. Palladium does a great job of broadening the sweet spot and keeping strike, parry, and dodge bonuses to a reasonable level. I do have a quibble with attribute bonuses as presented and feel you need an attribute advancement rule of some sort or to lower the bonus threshold. I don't like having to hunt through the skill descriptions to find attribute modifiers for physical skills and I don't like attributes to be meaningless. Lets keep the bonus scheme and give a bonus point for each physical or mental skill. I like skills improving attributes.
Can't believe we're 6 pages in and nobody's mentioned heroes unlimited yet. Its far and away my primary system of choice.
Quote from: VincentTakeda;1046120Can't believe we're 6 pages in and nobody's mentioned heroes unlimited yet. Its far and away my primary system of choice.
I only ever played 1 session of it. I didn't feel I should comment on HU but it does look good.
Good first post BTW.
If anything, I really want to try Microlite Platinum which looks like Palladium System but only the good parts.
Quote from: DeadUematsu;1046151If anything, I really want to try Microlite Platinum which looks like Palladium System but only the good parts.
I tried it. Prefer the original by far.
Quote from: Nerzenjäger;1046183I tried it. Prefer the original by far.
Any reasons why you didn't like it?
Quote from: Brad;1044909This thread made me pull out my 1st edition Palladium fantasy books. Fuck, these are fantastic. Super dark, eldritch horror stuff, plausible even while having a ton of monster races...this is way better than anything similar made in the past 20 years.
I got a LOT of mileage out of Palladium Fantasy 1e. As soon as it landed, I almost gave D&D up for it.
Loved the setting. Loved the classes, systems, races. But they moved on to supporting other Palladium games - Heroes Unlimited, TMNT, Ninjas and Superspys, etc... and I followed them until I just lost the thread.
Came back for Rifts. Which I still think is amazing. But the system is like toe-nails that got too damn long and no one trimmed them. Now they're crazy. I'm more of an extreme admirer of the settings than anything else. I'll always have deep abiding love for Palladium Fantasy. That's my jam.
Wolfen Empire! C'mon! You know you love it. Roman Werewolf Empire! Sweet Galactus on a stick!
Quote from: VincentTakeda;1046120Can't believe we're 6 pages in and nobody's mentioned heroes unlimited yet. Its far and away my primary system of choice.
I just roll that into Rifts so I can scare Rifts enthusiasts with what real power looks like.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1045040Replace the term SDC with Stamina. Structural Damage Capacity sounds like an engineering term for buildings.
Remove or lower the # of HTH attacks per turn. It's escalated. Untrained gets 1, trained gets 2, and military gets 3. Add a few when leveling up.
Lower the range of stat bonuses. This gives a reason for stats below 16 to exist at all.
Generally raise damages and lower the SDC range. I'd eyeball doubling damage dice for all weapons and attacks, and halving the amounts of SDC. I could even go for more, depending on specific examples.
Skills, my god. This is where I throw up my hands. I'd probably want to do a complete overhaul. Simplify the skill categories, and make them all a d20 roll over, so they are compatible with other bonuses/penalties.
Yeah I'd do this:
Unify a core progression based on levels. Tie in your secondary progressions to specific Class-types (Fighter, Caster, Skillmonkey). Keep classes discrete in their special abilities, but the progression has to be uniform to your core trees. There should never be more than one deviation from the core progression.
No more SDC - or tone it waaay down. Or just use MDC or nothing. It needs rescaling from scratch.
Unified skill system, de-couple it from other sub-systems. With good examples for creating skills for specific splats.
Part of why the SDC system is worthwhile I feel is that it can allow for the awesome hand to hand fighting at which Palladium games really excel. Being able to bash away on each other Hong Kong fooey style and then getting to be badass enough to eventually have the "bad touches" which bypass all of that is sooooo satisfying. It also really amps up the tension when facing an opponent who has the bad touches.
Man is Ninjas & Superspies so much fun.
I loved Ninjas & Superspies.
I can't say I ever cared for Heroes Unlimited. Suffered from all the same problems most supers rpgs had.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1047231I loved Ninjas & Superspies.
I can't say I ever cared for Heroes Unlimited. Suffered from all the same problems most supers rpgs had.
Sadly, you chose the Greek Myths for your Amber System Game. I think it would've been an obvious fit for "Supers: Diceless".
Quote from: Nerzenjäger;1047274Sadly, you chose the Greek Myths for your Amber System Game. I think it would've been an obvious fit for "Supers: Diceless".
I agree. That system would work wonderfully for Supers. WTF is wrong with you Pundit? Get on it.
Palladium Fantasy 1st, with Old Ones and Adventures on the High Seas. Always got the feeling Kevin started with his illustrations and built characters and background from them, rather than the other way round. A visual artist's approach to game design. Enjoy that impression of his game books.
Nightbane is really good.
Also, I have found The Compendium of Weapons, Armor & Castles pretty useful over the years for many games. It compiles together those individual titles. It's a handy game reference to have around.
Recon has pretty good replay value. It's military without trying to simulate the daily life of a Marine.
Quote from: danskmacabre;1043651So yeah, great setting, horrible rules, but if you have a really good GM , the horrible rules can be mitigated somewhat.
This has been my experience with all Palladium games. Great ideas, terrible execution. I find it one of the most frustrating game companies because there is so much unrealized potential.
Quote from: Skarg;1043660I only really liked their illustrated weapons & armor and castles books, and a few details in their RPG (which otherwise rolled & melted my eyes).
Unfortunately most of these weapons books have rather poor research. Really nothing more than cool pictures and shit KS (or in some cases his wife) made up. Some of the info in the firearms books fly in the face of facts reported by actual firearms historians. There are plenty of weapons and armor books available from more knowledgeable sources.
Quote from: Omega;1043846And some more I have/had but never gotten to run.
Recon: This one is weird as it started out as more a wargame than an RPG and then evolved over iterations. Much like Boot Hill did. Interesting game and a look at early Palladium. Original Mechanoids is something I'd like to get ahold of some day.
Recon is the exception to the normal Palladium game, decent rules, terrible fluff. Recon was actually written and published by another company RPG Inc. Palladium bought the rights to the game in the early 80s, took the rules but replaced the reality based Vietnam war setting with a generic jungle conflict as seen through the eyes of a Hollywood blockbuster. Using films to illustrate, the original Recon was Full Metal Jacket and Platoon, Palladium's revised Recon was Rambo 2.
The original was a wargamy RPG. My understanding is that many of the additional RPG rules were just unpublished rules from RPG Inc. Recon also stands out because it is one of the few Palladium games that KS had little to no involvement with. Not the greatest game out there, but by far my favorite game published by Palladium. Sadly with their elimination of the real world Vietnam from the setting they never printed the pretty good Recon supplements done by RPG Inc.
I jealously guard my collection of original RPG Inc published Recon materials. An odd jumble of relics from the early days of RPGs, small Traveler-esqe rule books and news paper like supplements.
Good full account of Recon there Toadmaster.
I always acknowledge that games are not accurate. I found the weapon armor, castle books fine, with a sort of internal balance. I or you might know all sorts of historical detail, with resources and all, but in gaming I know that most players just want some idea of things. I could point to a little sketch, and it was good to go. It was a product of the preinternet.
I loved Bill Coffin's stuff, especially his fantasy sourcebooks, his stuff for Heroes Unlimited, and Systems Failure. It's been ages since I played or ran Palladium, but I very much would love to play in something set in one his setting books!
Systems Failure is one I'd dearly love to play in. I really liked the classes, and it was a good post apoc setting.
Most of Palladium's stuff, as noted earlier, suffers from a clunky system. No matter what year it is, pick up the newest offering from Palladium and it's still 1983. It does have its charm, though, there are just other systems I prefer playing.
I'd really love to convert some of their settings over, though. There's some gonzo awesome in those pages, and I have to give them props as a company - they do a good job of keeping stuff in print, their books hold together well, and they are good to their fans - I love their Christmas Grab Bag they do each year, and have gotten it several times.
I have to admit, of all the different gaming systems I've owned, no books that I have are in better shape than the palladium ones. I'd say it was from lack of use but that ain't true. Few systems require as much page flippin as palladium and I play it pretty much exclusively. These books should be dead three times over. But they aint. I can't explain how, but its a fact. Palladium books are tough cookies.
Quote from: Nerzenjäger;1047274Sadly, you chose the Greek Myths for your Amber System Game. I think it would've been an obvious fit for "Supers: Diceless".
That has been done at the campaign level (not by me, to clarify, but by other Amber GMs).
And yes, you could use the Amber-diceless system to make a Supers game but you'd need to put some work into it.
Quote from: Kuroth;1047815Good full account of Recon there Toadmaster.
I always acknowledge that games are not accurate. I found the weapon armor, castle books fine, with a sort of internal balance. I or you might know all sorts of historical detail, with resources and all, but in gaming I know that most players just want some idea of things. I could point to a little sketch, and it was good to go. It was a product of the preinternet.
I have some of the weapons armor books. At the time they were some of the most accessible, and I suppose they are today as well, although the internet offers a lot these days that we didn't have when those books were written.
They certainly have their use, and there is some good info in there. Mainly it is the know it all tone that is my main turn off, and that seems to reach a peak the further from being supported by any facts it gets. KS has a tendency of lecturing in his writing.
The Palladium / Recon connection is a mixed blessing. It has kept the rules available which is appreciated, but I'd love to see what a company more interested in real world military actions might have done with it.
I really like the way dead reign does fast zombies. It can probably outrun you. It never gets tired. So it should just fly headlong at you the second it sees you. But it doesn't. When it sees you. It just watches you... and waits for you to make the first move. Oh goody goody, the prey is gonna run. Oh I cant wait... But I must.... Wait for it... Waaiiiiit for it!!!!
Try to walk away, run away or attack and we're off to the races, flying headlong for you at top speed. Not with the intent of tearing you to shreds... Oh no. With the intent of tackling ya and keepin ya down so that the slower zombies can finally catch up and get a turn!
Also a fan of the repeater zombie. Just drivin to work in a van with no gas... Flippin ya the bird. Mowing the lawn...
We had a party head down to the local gun store to of course salvage any guns or ammo they could find and lo and behold. A repeater zombie is at the gun range firing a gun with no bullets at some creeper zombies downrange. Click. Click. Click.... So the party decides to give him a fresh clip. Repeater zombie's eyes light up as he gives a creeeeeeepy smile... reloads and does the party's work for them.
For all the talk about "great settings, terrible rules" (and I'm only commenting on the Palladium fantasy line) I found the products pedestrian and not that novel. I think they only got traction because there wasn't much competition back in the day for good adventure content. Chaosium's Stormbringer and Elric! adventures were much more interesting to me. TMNT's was a nifty game, but again, actual comics were better adventure material than Palladium's adventure publications.
I've never played recon or dead reign. Neither war-rpgs nor zombie-rpgs have ever appealed to me. But the fans of those games sure seem to like them.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1048405I've never played recon or dead reign. Neither war-rpgs nor zombie-rpgs have ever appealed to me. But the fans of those games sure seem to like them.
Dead Reign is a very clean representation of the Megaversal System. If I was into zombies, it would be my game of choice. Again, lots of great ideas. Some creative variations on the zombie trope, too.
Quote from: Nerzenjäger;1048419Dead Reign is a very clean representation of the Megaversal System. If I was into zombies, it would be my game of choice. Again, lots of great ideas. Some creative variations on the zombie trope, too.
And the beat art from any zombie game.
Quote from: Nerzenjäger;1048419Dead Reign is a very clean representation of the Megaversal System. If I was into zombies, it would be my game of choice. Again, lots of great ideas. Some creative variations on the zombie trope, too.
Since that system works really well for Invid, Mechanoids, Xiticix and the bugs in Systems Failure, I could certainly see it working well for Zombies.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1048752Since that system works really well for Invid, Mechanoids, Xiticix and the bugs in Systems Failure, I could certainly see it working well for Zombies.
Yes, but I specifically mean the way the rules are presented. Much better structured than in Rifts. It's pretty well edited compared to older Megaversal games. Comparable to the last Robotech rulebook, I would say.
Quote from: HappyDaze;1043648Here's a full list of everything I've enjoyed from Palladium over the years:
1) TMNT back in the early 90s
2) Robotech back in the early 90s
3) ...
OK, done now.
Pretty much my experience also. We did try the Palladium fantasy game, but it paled in comparison to TMNT and Robotech.
Quote from: pdboddy;1049325Pretty much my experience also. We did try the Palladium fantasy game, but it paled in comparison to TMNT and Robotech.
How DARE YOU!
Quote from: tenbones;1049331How DARE YOU!
1) Hit reply with quote.
2) Dare.
3) ???
4) Profit. :P
Quote from: RPGPundit;1048752Since that system works really well for Invid, Mechanoids, Xiticix and the bugs in Systems Failure, I could certainly see it working well for Zombies.
Systems Failure is a fun game. I prefer it to Dead Reign, but only because I'm burnt on Zs and I love giant monsters.
It's an easy to read, clean presentation too...compared to other PB books.
Yeah, I absolutely loved Systems Failure.
It is unfortunate that the sour relationship between Bill Coffin and Palladium Books killed Systems Failure.
I hold it up as a good introduction to the Megaversal system if Robotech or Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles & Other Strangeness don't appeal to you. It is a solid tale of rebellion against overwhelming opposition, with interesting but not wildly different O.C.C.s and an overall low-to-medium power level. It is a good way to learn the rules in a controlled environment and the Referee can easily add material from other games as the campaign goes on.
"Giant alien bugs have invaded the Earth and enslaved humanity. You are fighters in the resistance." is a simple pitch with which to gauge the interest of potential players. Character creation is easier in this game than any other Megaversal game except The Mechanoids.
There is a lot to like about Systems Failure.
Yeah, I talked to Bill Coffin after having discovered his stuff late in the game. By this point he's been long gone. What a genuinely nice guy and great writing talent. Probably one of the better creative writers in the hobby, on par with guys like Hite for me, but generally more traditional in his approach to RPGs.
Quote from: Nerzenjäger;1050126Yeah, I talked to Bill Coffin after having discovered his stuff late in the game. By this point he's been long gone. What a genuinely nice guy and great writing talent. Probably one of the better creative writers in the hobby, on par with guys like Hite for me, but generally more traditional in his approach to RPGs.
I have never met the man. By all accounts he is a good guy.
I like all of his work for Palladium Books. I do not own Septimus, and opinion seems mixed on that.
To my tastes, Bill's material is superior to Ken's. Though I accept my opinion is doubtless skewed by a thorough dislike of Trail of Cthulhu.
Bill's Palladium Fantasy books are possibly the best in the line and among the best in fantasy games overall.
I don't know. The fact that it was just one book may have been what really made Systems Failure such a masterpiece.
Agreed. Nightbane is the same way. I don't find the supplements valuable enough to include. Fun to read, but the core game book is perfect as is because of the room for personal invention in the setting.
I might as well chime in. To someone curious about Palladium, if I had to recommend something to them, I'd recommend something from the years before Palladium became established/complacent. I'd put that date at 1993 with the boundary game being Macross II. Pick something before that.
Within that range of the company's launch to 1993, I'd recommend focusing on the "Revised" era of 1985 and onward. What main lines does this actually mean?
Palladium Role-Playing Game 1e Revised
Heroes Unlimited 1e Revised
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles & Other Strangeness Revised
Ninjas & Superspies Revised
Robotech 1e
Beyond the Supernatural 1e Revised
Rifts 1e
I feel these (mostly) late 80s products represent the strongest time when there was indeed a "vision" that included gaming behind the products. I think the system is at that sweet spot where it hasn't become overburdened but is complex and distinct enough to be interesting. Plus, since numerous freelancers haven't yet come in with no understanding of the rules, the mechanics are about the clearest and most "Megaversal" they ever got. On a more basic note, there is much more of an attention to craft here. Yes, the copypasta is plain as day, but there is a pride of work which is absent from the post 93 products and disappeared entirely after 2000. There's an enthusiasm bubbling from the rawness and conversational tone of these 80s products.
You'll notice that I'd left two 80s games off: Recon and Mechanoids. I left off Recon because it's not really a Palladium type of experience. I think Recon is probably better experienced in it's original RPG Inc incarnation, not the various Palladium versions. The other game I left off is Mechanoids.
I've never seen the original Mechanoids books or even the 1985 redo. However, I have seen the Mechanoid Invasion Trilogy which was done in the 90s. I think Mechanoid Invasion Trilogy is an exception to the 1993 cutoff rule. Even the reprint version has that raw, unfiltered GM notes nature.
One of the biggest suggestions I would make is not to get into all of these games. Also, don't get heavily into supplements. Just get into one or two core games. After about 3 supplements most of them start going off the rails.
I think Robotech is the strongest line. The introduction of extraneous stuff like "Basic" mecha combat starts mucking things up from Invid Invasion onward, but Macross works passably, and Invid Invasion and Robotech II: The Sentinels also manage to do things with some some semblance of simulation.
Rifts is the ultimate expression of the classic era of Palladium. It's quite literally where everything comes together for the company. Even though the structure is creaking horribly, it still kinda/sorta works. It's almost impossible not to recommend the original Rifts corebook and one or two of the pre-1993 supplements as Palladium at it's absolute zenith.
Quote from: Gabriel2;1050587You'll notice that I'd left two 80s games off: Recon and Mechanoids. I left off Recon because it's not really a Palladium type of experience. I think Recon is probably better experienced in it's original RPG Inc incarnation, not the various Palladium versions. The other game I left off is Mechanoids.
I've never seen the original Mechanoids books or even the 1985 redo. However, I have seen the Mechanoid Invasion Trilogy which was done in the 90s. I think Mechanoid Invasion Trilogy is an exception to the 1993 cutoff rule. Even the reprint version has that raw, unfiltered GM notes nature.
The original Mechanoid invasion was kind of neat, a low budget game as was fairly common at the time. It was 3 cheap book printed on news print, not unlike comic books of the period. A simple class / level system similar to what Palladium would settle into with its later games. I don't know how much if any changes were made in the later re-issues. The original is classic Palladium, full of cool ideas and wonky semi-playable rules. Of course in the 1980s that was pretty typical of the industry in general, Palladium was not unique in producing games that required a fair amount of polishing and lots of interpretation. GM notes is a good description of many small games during that period.
On Recon there are better rules for modern warfare available today, but for someone who likes the system Palladium's Recon is useful even if you have the originals. It includes expanded rules that as I understand were at least in part created by the original author but didn't make it to print before RPG Inc went under. If they hadn't replaced the realistic setting with a very cheesy fictional world it would be a pretty good game.
I do agree that Recon is not a good representation of Palladium. It is an oddity, and I don't have any idea how it wound up in the Palladium stable.
Quote from: Gabriel2;1050587I've never seen the original Mechanoids books or even the 1985 redo. However, I have seen the Mechanoid Invasion Trilogy which was done in the 90s. I think Mechanoid Invasion Trilogy is an exception to the 1993 cutoff rule. Even the reprint version has that raw, unfiltered GM notes nature.
I have the 1985 redo and its awesome because its got extra Wujick content. The Mechanoid Trilogy is a great purchase because its not revised, just collected and reprinted.
It's easily among my favorite RPG books.
Quote from: Gabriel2;1050587It's almost impossible not to recommend the original Rifts corebook and one or two of the pre-1993 supplements as Palladium at it's absolute zenith.
Agreed. Rifts is such a weirdo RPG. The rules are mess, the setting is bizarro, everything about the game is clunky...BUT at the table in actual play, Rifts rocks so freaking hard.
The ROI of Palladium for me has been immense. I've gotten such incredible fun out of their games...as long as I steamroll over their rules issues.
I think most of the good stuff came post 1993. But I think with the Megaversal you just need that clicking moment and suddenly most of the games work really well.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1050538I don't know. The fact that it was just one book may have been what really made Systems Failure such a masterpiece.
Systems Failure is a great one-book game. As is Splicers (though it did finally get a second book compiling an epic campaign published in The Rifter).
Even though I love the ever-expanding madness of RIFTS/Phaseword, I prefer Palladium Books' smaller game lines. You get so much mileage out of games like Heroes Unlimited, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles & Other Strangeness, Dead Reign and Nightspawn/bane. The supplements are there if you need
MORE, but never feel like they are incomplete without them.
They have a Rifts Essentials (https://bundleofholding.com/presents/RiftsEssentials2018)and a Rifts World Books (https://bundleofholding.com/presents/RiftsWorldbooks) set of bundles over on Bundle of Holding (https://bundleofholding.com).
TMNT had a ton of supplements, though, and most of them good.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1051264TMNT had a ton of supplements, though, and most of them good.
True.
Excepting Truckin' Turtles and Turtles Go Hollywood, which seemed to be an attempt to tie the game with the cartoon's style, the supplements and source books were awesome.
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Guide to the Universe and Transdimensional Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles were the high points. The latter a tool for endless adventures through time and alternate realities.
It also let me play as a kung-fu fighting Ankylosaurus! How could I not love it?
Transdimensional was amazing