TheRPGSite

Unfortunately,, it was not very good. Instead of streamlining the dice system fro WH3rd, its even more clunky and has all of the weakneses I've noted in those games. The severely limited approach to the setting (essentially this is like if D&D created a separate game for each Class. EoTE is the "Rogue Class" game) and surprising lack of species to play were more than a little disappointing (yes, I guess I was spoiled by WEG's SW RPG). The book is obviously meant to be more arty than a reference manual during play (which might have been okay if it wasnt such a crunchy game that required constant reference), which was inconvenient in the least.

I shant be attempting any other games in the series.

I tend to agree. I liked WFRP 3e but Star Wars EoE seemed to throw away the good bits (all the different powers) and keep the less convincing bits (the two-axis dice).

My group tried the basic box set for EotE and came to a similar conclusion. At the end of the day, we just didn't like the weird dice. I can only pray that, if there's ever a WFRP 4th edition, it won't be using similar mechanics.

I came away with the same conclusion with the beta and only reinforced by its official release. Sharing dice during beta cemented my FFG contempt (but boy do they know what gamers will shell out for). But hey, the SW WEG fans made something amazing in Womp Rat Press. That compilation of Star Wars stuff was faboo!

I GMed a 10-session (or so) SW EotE campaign. We quite liked the game and the mechanics. What I found helped is:

1) Have the GM screen. It saved a lot of page flipping through the manual
2) When there are a lot of dice rolls in a short time, have a roll with an advantage just add a blue-die to the next roll if there's no obvious reason to have a specific effect.
3) Get enough dice or use an online roller. Skip the talent cards (they are useless).

After I finish the current Temple of Elemental Evil campaign, we're going to do a part II Age of Rebelion campaign.

I've been running Force & Destiny.

The primary problem with the game boils down to the dice mechanic, which is amazingly shitty. You have:

(1) Success vs. Failure (these cancel, multiple successes accumulate but failures don't)
(2) Advantage vs. Threat (these cancel, multiples of both accumulate)
(3) Triumph vs. Despair (these don't cancel)

Ignoring quantitative differences, these give you 18 qualitative results:

Success
Failure
Success-Advantage
Success-Advantage-Triumph
Success-Advantage-Despair
Success-Advantage-Triumph-Despair
Success-Threat
Success-Threat-Triumph
Success-Threat-Despair
Success-Threat-Triumph-Despair
Failure-Advantage
Failure-Advantage-Triumph
Failure-Advantage-Despair
Failure-Advantage-Triumph-Despair
Failure-Threat
Failure-Threat-Triumph
Failure-Threat-Despair
Failure-Threat-Triumph-Despair

The basic functionality characterizing the quality of a success or failure makes sense, but what the system never fully manages to convey is exactly why you need three separate tiers of symbols that you count in slightly different ways.

So you flip to the skill guidelines hoping for a little guidance... and that's when you discover that even the designers have no idea how to use their convoluted dice system.

For example, advantage can't turn failure into success... unless it's a Knowledge skill, because then advantage can grant you "minor but possibly relevant information about the subject" even on a failure. (Except... if you're gaining access to information, that looks a lot like a success, right?)

If you're making a Computer check, then additional successes reduce the time required to make the check. If it's a Stealth check, on the other hand, then you're going to want to use advantage to reduce the time. With Skullduggery you use advantage to gain additional items; with Survival you use successes.

It goes on and on like that.

So you have a system that's supposedly feeding you "useful" information, but the designers can't even figure out how to interpret the results consistently despite multiple years of development and seven different products featuring the core mechanics. Why should we believe that this system is going to do anything useful at the table?

The rest of the system has some interesting ideas, but the core mechanic is so incredibly poor in its execution that it really blights everything that it touches. (Which, since it's the core mechanic, is everything in the game.)

With our next session, I am looking to playtest some house rules:

(1) The Triumph symbol counts as a success, but also the additional effect of either (a) cancelling despair, (b) cancelling all threat symbols, or (c) if there are no threat symbols, counting as two advantage symbols. (Despair does the exact same thing in reverse.)

(2) Any effect in the game that uniquely requires a Triumph symbol requires 4 advantage instead. Similarly, anything that uniquely requires a Despair symbols can be triggered with 4 threat.

(3) With the exception of damage and recovery, the number of successes or failure symbols you achieved is irrelevant. Everything else in the rules that ask you to count or use successes instead use advantage.

This radically streamlines the resolution mechanic so that it is only reporting a binary success-fail state and the quality of that success or failure. (Instead of the RAW system where it reports a qualitative success or binary failure plus three different measurements of the quality of that success or failure.)

The guidelines for Knowledge checks are chucked completely: If you succeed, each advantage gives you an additional piece of information. If you fail, advantage can give you a lead on where the information can be found. Disadvantage either corrupts the information in some way (misleading, missing detail, missing context), gives straight out misinformation, puts you in immediate danger (such as an angry alien in a bar shouting, "You'll be dead!"), or alerts the bad guys to your search (like stormtroopers noticing that you cut off the alien's arm).

Quote from: Justin Alexander;820380The basic functionality characterizing the quality of a success or failure makes sense, but what the system never fully manages to convey is exactly why you need three separate tiers of symbols that you count in slightly different ways.

because they tried to create a hybrid system with narrative elements. you are supposed to get results like "you succeed, but problematic story element!".

triumph and despair are simply crit results, i wouldn't count them as a seperate tier myself. advantage/threat is almost purely narrative. i consider letting triumph and despair cancel each other out a good idea though.

in my group, if you can't think of any positive (players) or negative (gm) aspects of the resolved action quickly, the advantages/threats are simply disregarded, or, as languagegeek suggested, they simply add blue or black dice to the next roll. with creative players this mechanic is usually great fun, and if you don't care for it, you can simply ignore it.

i think the biggest problem with the system is that the dice can add up quickly, and even if you are used to reading them figuring out a result involving 12+ can take a few moments. sometimes this adds a bit of tension, usually it's just tedious.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;820380unless it's a Knowledge skill, because then advantage can grant you "minor but possibly relevant information about the subject" even on a failure. (Except... if you're gaining access to information, that looks a lot like a success, right?)

i've always considered this to be some kind of fail forward-mechanic. if you need information to proceed and fail, offering other ways to get the info seems like a good idea to me.

with your suggestions you are taking the narrative element out of the dice rolls, which to me seems to be the core of the system. i am sure it can work, but i wonder why you would play this version of star wars if you did.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;820380(...)

This has been my impression of the game from the start, admittedly without actually fully reading any of the published stuff. Also, I fail to see how this convoluted mess is in any way helpful in emulating the source material.

In my experience the system design works better in WFRP 3e where the majority of actions have an associated card which has a table giving specific effects for 'boon' and 'bane' results.

The Star Wars implementation falls between two stools, keeping the complexity but not using it for anything worthwhile. It has the worst of both worlds.

I love the dice mechanic...in concept. It doesn't feel playtested enough to streamline it. Perhaps, its played best with a roller app?

Personally, Better Games did the whole "variable level of success" thing far better in 1992 with Battleborn and their house system.

Quote from: Spinachcat;820493I love the dice mechanic...in concept. It doesn't feel playtested enough to streamline it. Perhaps, its played best with a roller app?

Personally, Better Games did the whole "variable level of success" thing far better in 1992 with Battleborn and their house system.

Our group plays Edge of the Empire every second Saturday. We enjoy it but that's because the GM is being a bit subtle. Though he did buy a whole lot of dice so we don't have to buy our own (I did but that's because more dice is better in this type of game).

I'm not necessarily a great fan of the dice mechanic itself, but I accept it, and it's kinda grown on me as we've played. It's different enough from standard dice and, more importantly, the d20 system that it's fun.

Called it and I mean I fucking called it.  I knew that custom dice was going to ruin the game and that the only reason it would sell like hot cakes is because of the name brand.  Any other none name brand game and this would fail.  Hell it failed for Warhammer which is a name brand, but far less popular than Star Wars.

Quote from: Snowman0147;820497Called it and I mean I fucking called it.  I knew that custom dice was going to ruin the game and that the only reason it would sell like hot cakes is because of the name brand.  Any other none name brand game and this would fail.  Hell it failed for Warhammer which is a name brand, but far less popular than Star Wars.

Yes, because theRPGSite, which is obsessed mostly with Old School games is 100% a good representation of the entire hobby. :rolleyes:

Oh, no, a few guys on theRPGSite think its bad, the game must be shit! :rolleyes:

Quote from: shlominus;820421because they tried to create a hybrid system with narrative elements. you are supposed to get results like "you succeed, but problematic story element!".

That still doesn't explain why you need three separate tiers all handled in slightly different ways. This system generates outcomes like, "Moderate success with something vaguely good, also something vaguely better than than the vaguely good, but also some seriously bad in a vague way."

Succeed-with-complication can be usefully improvised around. Succeed-with-complication-and-great-thing-and-also-a-really-bad-thing is just noise.

Quotetriumph and despair are simply crit results, i wouldn't count them as a seperate tier myself.

A nice house rule which, you'll note, tacitly admits that the system doesn't actually work.

Quotewith your suggestions you are taking the narrative element out of the dice rolls,

Not really following your logic here. Why are you claiming that success-with-narrative-complication isn't narrative, but success-with-narrative-complication-and-also-narrative-triumph is narrative? Particularly since you've already admitted that you've house ruled out the narrative effects of Triumph results?

I also don't really accept that these mechanics are primarily narrative. If you look at the actual guidelines given in the rulebook, virtually none of them are narrative. It's stuff like "you accomplish the task 25% faster".

Quote from: Jame Rowe;820495Our group plays Edge of the Empire every second Saturday. We enjoy it but that's because the GM is being a bit subtle. Though he did buy a whole lot of dice so we don't have to buy our own (I did but that's because more dice is better in this type of game).

Out of curiosity, how many dice are you playing with?

I've found that you need a minimum of three sets with beginning characters if you want to avoid having to reroll individual dice to form a full pool. You can get away with two sets while only occasionally having to kludge it, but the idea of playing with only a single set sounds absolutely horrid.

That means a $45 investment in dice on top of a $60 core rulebook. ($180 in core rulebooks, of course, if you want a complete game.) I think the most depressing thing for me is how completely inaccessible FFG has made what could be a major gateway product.

The only reason I'm running it is because somebody else paid for all the rulebooks and the dice. Previously, I've approached the "buy the same rules 9 times" FFG marketing plan, laughed, and walked away.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;820501Yes, because theRPGSite, which is obsessed mostly with Old School games is 100% a good representation of the entire hobby. :rolleyes:

Oh, no, a few guys on theRPGSite think its bad, the game must be shit! :rolleyes:

Don't be jealous, it's juvenile.

It cannot be helped if people saw this coming from a mile away.

Quote from: jeff37923;820503Don't be jealous, it's juvenile.

It cannot be helped if people saw this coming from a mile away.

Jealous of what? The game is doing well, tons of people are playing it, and its continuing to come out with stuff, being one of the best supported games at the moment.

Jealous of the ability to create unsubstantiated claims based on tiny amounts of anecdotal evidence? Yes, the only reason the game is selling is because its Star Wars! We know that because like 5 people on theRPGSite said so! The site that is massively anti-Narrative doesn't like a system with a narrative bend, I'm so surprised!

Where is your comparison? Warhammer Fantasy 3rd? That game required a crazy amount of buy in, much higher than FFG Star Wars (which could be started with a 20ish dollar starter set), and the ruleset was way way more clunky in my opinion, with way more moving parts on the dice.

I'm not even sure what I'm supposed to be jealous of, other than maybe the bliss that comes from ignorance?

Quote from: Emperor Norton;820506Jealous of what?

Where is your comparison?

I'm not even sure what I'm supposed to be jealous of?

d6 Star Wars, Revised, Updated, and Expanded (http://d6holocron.com/downloads/books/REUP.pdf)

:D

I'm not too impressed with the new Star Wars. I'll play it because I like my space opera and at the end of the day "System Only Matters to A Point".

Last time we played the GM decided that out of combat to simply ignore results outside the binary success/failure as the whole "you pick the lock but..." started to get really tedious. In combat the "extra" results are more strictly codified.

Quote from: jeff37923;820507d6 Star Wars, Revised, Updated, and Expanded (http://d6holocron.com/downloads/books/REUP.pdf)

:D

Which has jack and shit to do with what I responded to.

To be fair I called out World of Darkness MMO failing as well so at least give me some credit.  I mean at the time it was announce people where saying that CCP would make it work because they made EVE Online work really well.  I, however, pointed out that the MMO market was over flowing with too many MMOs so this game will most likely fail.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;820502Out of curiosity, how many dice are you playing with?

I've found that you need a minimum of three sets with beginning characters if you want to avoid having to reroll individual dice to form a full pool. You can get away with two sets while only occasionally having to kludge it, but the idea of playing with only a single set sounds absolutely horrid.

That means a $45 investment in dice on top of a $60 core rulebook. ($180 in core rulebooks, of course, if you want a complete game.) I think the most depressing thing for me is how completely inaccessible FFG has made what could be a major gateway product.

The only reason I'm running it is because somebody else paid for all the rulebooks and the dice. Previously, I've approached the "buy the same rules 9 times" FFG marketing plan, laughed, and walked away.

Not sure, but the GM bought a bunch of dice sets. He has 5 or 6, and I have one that gets shared out randomly (usually myself, my fiancée and whoever is sitting nearby - one of the players thinks my set is "unlucky"). I may get another set just for extras.

I like what they did with the game. It's pretty fun and fairly flexible, and they did a good job of keeping the separate careers fairly interchangeable. I do somewhat wish there a way to use XP to increase stats but at least they used a talent for that.

My only complaint by now is the size of the ships and ship crews, and THAT is a legacy from WEG d6. For example, I think that the Tantive-class vessels are maybe 100 meters at most, two or three decks high and have no more than 60 crew.

Quote from: Snowman0147;820497Called it and I mean I fucking called it.  I knew that custom dice was going to ruin the game and that the only reason it would sell like hot cakes is because of the name brand.  Any other none name brand game and this would fail.  Hell it failed for Warhammer which is a name brand, but far less popular than Star Wars.

Its hard to get actual figures but from those we do have ICv2 figures suggest that WFRP3e did roughly as well as WFRP2e - http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?1984-Top-5-RPGs-Compiled-Charts-2008-Present. FFG's Star Wars is also doing extremely well on those figures too.

As for WoD MMO, I don't think you get much credit for saying the obvious. Almost no one thought it would succeed.

Quote from: languagegeek;820359I GMed a 10-session (or so) SW EotE campaign. We quite liked the game and the mechanics. What I found helped is:

1) Have the GM screen. It saved a lot of page flipping through the manual
2) When there are a lot of dice rolls in a short time, have a roll with an advantage just add a blue-die to the next roll if there's no obvious reason to have a specific effect.
3) Get enough dice or use an online roller. Skip the talent cards (they are useless).

After I finish the current Temple of Elemental Evil campaign, we're going to do a part II Age of Rebelion campaign.

Thanks for the comments. I'd probably still go with WEG SW d6, because I love the simplicity of it, but the multi-dimensional resolution is interesting. It takes time to perfect an idea; I'm sure the third or fourth generation of the system will get it right.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;820506That game required a crazy amount of buy in, much higher than FFG Star Wars (which could be started with a 20ish dollar starter set)

Reality check: The Beginning Game boxed sets are $30 each.

Quote from: Jame Rowe;820518My only complaint by now is the size of the ships and ship crews, and THAT is a legacy from WEG d6. For example, I think that the Tantive-class vessels are maybe 100 meters at most, two or three decks high and have no more than 60 crew.

Actually, the CR90 has a maximum crew of 165 and can carry up to 600 passengers. The FFG book doesn't list a specific size, although the rest of the stats do seem consistent with the 150 meter length listed in the old WEG sourcebooks. (However WEG thought that something roughly the size of a modern submarine could either (a) have an interior as shown in the movies or (b) 750+ people on it is really unclear to me.)

Quote from: Justin Alexander;820526Reality check: The Beginning Game boxed sets are $30 each.

EotE Beginner box is $24 on Amazon AoR is $21. And $20 on Coolstuff, which is where I got my copies.

And still a good bit under the Warhammer Fantasy 3rd entry points.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;820526Actually, the CR90 has a maximum crew of 165 and can carry up to 600 passengers. The FFG book doesn't list a specific size, although the rest of the stats do seem consistent with the 150 meter length listed in the old WEG sourcebooks. (However WEG thought that something roughly the size of a modern submarine could either (a) have an interior as shown in the movies or (b) 750+ people on it is really unclear to me.)

Thus my decision to hold that Star Wars ships are smaller with less crew and passengers than is listed in the books. I've heard that they were going with the theory of "George Lucas wants it to look like a Star Destroyer could be a mile long" means it IS a mile long, instead of taking it to mean "visually impressive."

Quote from: Justin Alexander;820502That still doesn't explain why you need three separate tiers all handled in slightly different ways. This system generates outcomes like, "Moderate success with something vaguely good, also something vaguely better than than the vaguely good, but also some seriously bad in a vague way."

Succeed-with-complication can be usefully improvised around. Succeed-with-complication-and-great-thing-and-also-a-really-bad-thing is just noise.

i'm not disagreeing with you and personally i think 2 tiers would have been enough, i just don't think it's that big of a problem. weird results are very rare in my experience. i was sceptical about the system before i actually played and i was surprised how well it works.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;820502A nice house rule which, you'll note, tacitly admits that the system doesn't actually work.

i've never seen a system that couldn't use a bit of houseruling. have you? ;)

Quote from: Justin Alexander;820502Not really following your logic here. Why are you claiming that success-with-narrative-complication isn't narrative, but success-with-narrative-complication-and-also-narrative-triumph is narrative? Particularly since you've already admitted that you've house ruled out the narrative effects of Triumph results?

i don't think i actually said that...

the idea you posted results in "only reporting a binary success-fail state and the quality of that success or failure."

i fail to see the potential for narrative interpretation of the roll there. maybe i missunderstood what you meant.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;820502I also don't really accept that these mechanics are primarily narrative. If you look at the actual guidelines given in the rulebook, virtually none of them are narrative. It's stuff like "you accomplish the task 25% faster".

that's because they are only partially narrative. the skills all feature examples, but that's all they are... examples. you can (and should) do much more with advantages and threat.

"while this rulebook provides specific rules on how to resolve actions, the game relies heavily on both game master and the players to use their imagination - tempered with common sense - to explain what happens."

"the combination of dice types and symbols are all resources the players can use to help tell the story and add depth to the scene." (eote p.9)

"they use the information they obtain from the dice as well as any additional effects, complications and surprises." (eote p.15)

"players and gms alike are encouraged to take these opportunities to think about how the symbols can help move the story along and add details and special effects that create actionpacked sessions." (eote p.24)

to me these quotes show a lot of emphasis on the narrative elements of the system and as far as i can tell, most people play that way.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;820502That means a $45 investment in dice on top of a $60 core rulebook. ($180 in core rulebooks, of course, if you want a complete game.) I think the most depressing thing for me is how completely inaccessible FFG has made what could be a major gateway product.

Or a £4 die rolling app - smartphones aren't exactly obscure technology these days. Or a free web page (http://game2.com/eote/).

The game is fine and seems to be doing well. The books are absolutely gorgeous too.

Quote from: TristramEvans;820334a separate game for each Class

holy shit how could anybody have thought that was a good idea

Quote from: shlominus;820531the idea you posted results in "only reporting a binary success-fail state and the quality of that success or failure."

i fail to see the potential for narrative interpretation of the roll there. maybe i missunderstood what you meant.

what im about to say probably does not fit the system i looked at that core mechanic and decided i was not going to look through but let me give you an example

in order of most successfull to least succesfull

you pick the lock with no noise and can easily slip inside
you pick the lock but make a little noise somebody might have heard you
you pick the lock but make a lot of noise somebody is bound to have heard you
you fail to pick the lock
you fail to pick the lock and make a little noise somebody might have heard you
you fail to pick the lock and make a lot of noise somebody is bound to have heard you
you fail to pick the lock and make a lot of noise somebody is bound to have heard you and you broke your lockpick

now i will admit that with the 3rd layer there are a few more possibilities such as
you pick the lock and make a lot of noise and the chain falls on your foot injuring you
you pick the lock silently but sprain your wrist
etc

now while i will admit it does allow for things like that theres no argument there but in my opinion the few things gained from the 3rd layer aren't worth the trouble

also smells like storygame to me

Quote from: tuypo1;820570holy shit how could anybody have thought that was a good idea

Its an over exaggeration. Its more like how Rogue Trader, Dark Heresy, and Deathwatch are three games about being traders/smugglers, being inquisitors, and being Space marines, except in the case of Edge of the Empire, Age of Rebellion, and Force and Destiny, its three games about being seedy smugglers/bounty hunters/etc., being rebel soldiers fighting the empire, and being Jedi/Force Sensitives, with the added bonus that unlike the WH40K books they are compatible to play with each other.

And let's be honest here, the leading frontrunner of the the RPG world has 3 core books as well.

(And the game is entirely playable with just one core book. You can easily uses the careers and specializations in EotE to make a soldier, and you can use the force rules in it to easily create a character that can do everything Ben did with the force in Episode IV, and 95% of what Luke did throughout the movies)

Quote from: shlominus;820531the idea you posted results in "only reporting a binary success-fail state and the quality of that success or failure."

i fail to see the potential for narrative interpretation of the roll there. maybe i missunderstood what you meant.

Definitely a miscommunication, then. All I'm doing is lopping off one of the tiers and having Triumph/Despair cancel each other. So you can still get:

Succeed
Failure
Succeed-Advantage
Succeed-Threat
Failure-Advantage
Failure-Threat

You get two bits of information: One is binary success/fail. The other is good/neutral/bad, with varying degrees of good or bad.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;820600Its an over exaggeration. Its more like how Rogue Trader, Dark Heresy, and Deathwatch are three games about being traders/smugglers, being inquisitors, and being Space marines, except in the case of Edge of the Empire, Age of Rebellion, and Force and Destiny, its three games about being seedy smugglers/bounty hunters/etc., being rebel soldiers fighting the empire, and being Jedi/Force Sensitives, with the added bonus that unlike the WH40K books they are compatible to play with each other.

And let's be honest here, the leading frontrunner of the the RPG world has 3 core books as well.

(And the game is entirely playable with just one core book. You can easily uses the careers and specializations in EotE to make a soldier, and you can use the force rules in it to easily create a character that can do everything Ben did with the force in Episode IV, and 95% of what Luke did throughout the movies)

fair enough i have never read any of the 40k rpgs my only knowledge of them is the all guardsman party but i have never seen anybody complain about the split there and if there compatible thats even less likely to cause problems

Quote from: Justin Alexander;820601You get two bits of information: One is binary success/fail. The other is good/neutral/bad, with varying degrees of good or bad.

yeah, that does seem like an improvement of the original system to me.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;820509Which has jack and shit to do with what I responded to.

Except that it is what FFG Star Wars wishes it could be when it grows up.

:D

oh snap

I've never played or even read the books but the system sounds horribly contrived.

I'm no stranger to gimmicky games (Savage Worlds fan here) but there seems to be too much going on with each dice throw.

Also, proprietary dice irk me.

I'll give it a chance if someone else's running it, but I'm not enthused with what I've been reading here and elsewhere.

do you actually need the fancy dice or can you just use a normal die with a reference of what each number equals

there are online dicerollers available for free and there's the official app for a couple of $$$.

http://angille.net/eote/

there was this sheet to create your own dice in the beta:

http://i1093.photobucket.com/albums/i421/thexder42x/SWDicestickers_zps4ce56750.jpg (http://i1093.photobucket.com/albums/i421/thexder42x/SWDicestickers_zps4ce56750.jpg)

i doubt that this is still available somehow, though.

if you are desperate you could always use this:

(http://s9.postimg.org/t5ckcs7rz/dice_chart.jpg)

Quote from: shlominus;820664if you are desperate you could always use this:

(http://s9.postimg.org/t5ckcs7rz/dice_chart.jpg)

Making stickers for dice is easy. Blank dice aren't cheap, but you could reuse other sets.

Or you could just man up, buy a dremel and some blanks, and learn to engrave. Expensive, but at the end of it you've got a dremel and have learnt a new skill.

Quote from: Ladybird;820667Making stickers for dice is easy. Blank dice aren't cheap, but you could reuse other sets.

Or you could just man up, buy a dremel and some blanks, and learn to engrave. Expensive, but at the end of it you've got a dremel and have learnt a new skill.

Transparent sticky labels for inkjet printers are also not colourfast, at least not with my sweaty fingers, so will need sealing with varnish.

Blank dice are more expensive than normal ones, but are pretty cheap compared to official game dice.  For the cost of a pack of 8 Saga dice, I made 40 of them, a pile of FUDGE dice, and a couple of dozen order dice for other wargames.  A pleasant evening's printing and cutting out :)  

I've seen some amazing homemade decals used on blank dice too.  Again, they need protecting.

You're right though - engraved and inked dice can be things of beauty.

And that is why most people would not fuck with it if it wasn't STAR WARS.

I have play as A PC 3 games of EotE and had a good time each time. The "gimmick" dice were a part of this fun. But I do not see myself gming it.

I can see why people might be turned off by the dice, hell I was! But I did some digging, it interested me just enough (mainly because it was Star Wars), and I grabbed the Beginner Set. I, and my group, were hooked. We've really enjoyed the game, in all its aspects.

Is it for everyone? No, certainly not. But to call it "shit" is pretty harsh! :) I think D&D is one of the most frustrating games, in all editions, and 5th, while taking steps in some directions I like, still holds to things I really dislike. But is it shit? Hell, no! I recognize it as a great game and enjoy it.

As far as the very awesome d6 version "update" goes, it's not as interesting to me as FFG's. Much of that's an investment thing, I'm sure.

I believe a large block to FFG's Star Wars being liked more is the literal buy-in. The books and dice are expensive, so those who are less financially robust or simply frugal might be turned away. The aforementioned dice app is very cool and I've used it for a standard "D&D set" (it has basic polyhedrals). What's really cool about it is that it also has X-Wing dice and as they've added new "funky dice", they're added for free.

Anyway, for those who hated it, that sucks and it's too bad. It blows when a setting you like is tied to a system you dislike. I would like to mention that I've seen more excitement and involvement when Star Wars dice are rolled than any other time I've gamed. There's something about how each roll can affect the game in unexpected ways that draw people in.

I also love the other bits and bobs of the system, such as the way ranges are handled, initiative slots are assigned and that there's enough crunch to please the fiddly gamer in me while also being narrative enough to appeal to my story-gamer side.

I really hated the dice when I first heard about it, but after playing it (someone else bought the EotE beginner set), I got into it.

Is it an expensive buy in for an RPG? Yeah, it kind of is. I have almost everything for it, and about 6 sets of dice right now (4 bought separately, 2 from the beginner games)... but it still pales in comparison to how much I've spent on some of my board games. Or how much my dad has spent on golfing in the same time period.

And yeah, I've put it on the backburner for now because I'm playing games that are a bit lighter on "thinking up something on every roll", but its still a fun design for me personally, and also to a lot of people.

I just get tired of the "I don't like this game, so its shit, and anyone who buys it is obviously buying it for the license" stuff when most of the people I've talked to who have it are legitimately having fun with the system.

Its just like how I don't think I'll ever play AD&D again, because it doesn't appeal to me, but you know what, if you like it, or its derivatives, good for you man.

IME the dice is one of the least cool things about the RPG, but they alone shouldn't be something to attract or deter someone as there is a lot more game to like or dislike in the RPG TBH.

Quote from: Skywalker;820706IME the dice is one of the least cool things about the RPG, but they alone shouldn't be something to attract or deter someone as there is a lot more game to like or dislike in the RPG TBH.

Good point. I feel the dice are such a big deal because they're a new, physical thing. I like the system, when taken as a whole. The dice are just one piece of it.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;820705And yeah, I've put it on the backburner for now because I'm playing games that are a bit lighter on "thinking up something on every roll", but its still a fun design for me personally, and also to a lot of people.

Maybe I'm lucky but we never got burned out on this. Everyone's fine with (in combat) taking Strain, or some quick thing. For out-of-combat rolls things have just worked in quickly. And there are times when we just "ditch" potential things. It's all fallen into place, but I can see the urge to wrack your brains with each roll. What I like is the option to fiddle; you don't have to all the time.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;820705I just get tired of the "I don't like this game, so its shit, and anyone who buys it is obviously buying it for the license" stuff when most of the people I've talked to who have it are legitimately having fun with the system.

Save Exalted, which I feel is too solidly represented by utter fuckwits, at least on TBP and by the creative (destructive?) team itself. ;)

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;820707Good point. I feel the dice are such a big deal because they're a new, physical thing. I like the system, when taken as a whole. The dice are just one piece of it.

That's cool. It just seems like any discussion of the FFG Star Wars Games on TheRPGSite never gets past volleys of "I hate the dice" and "The dice are good/OK" with very little substance. Its almost exactly like trying to discuss Exalted on RPGnet :)

Quote from: Skywalker;820709That's cool. It just seems like any discussion of the FFG Star Wars Games on TheRPGSite never gets past volleys of "I hate the dice" and "The dice are good/OK" with very little substance. Its almost exactly like trying to discuss Exalted on RPGnet :)

Too bad you can't be honest on TBP about Exalted, though...

But! Let's go beyond the dice and hit what makes this game liked. For me (in no order) it's the modularity of making characters. For example, even though once a Bounty Hunter always a Bounty Hunter career-wise, you can get pretty unique with your build. Also, the way it all works has good crunch but not so much I drown in minutiae.

As a GM I love the three tiers of NPCs, both mechanically and narratively. I like how you don't have to follow the trees when assigning Talents to Rivals and Nemesis (Nemesi? Nemesises? :D), allowing you to just make what's needed/cool. It makes designing and running NPCs much easier.

The range bands are a lot of fun and a great way to push combat along with eking out each bonus for where you are. I'll never forget using Saga Edition and a sniper's mini was literally in another room to represent proper range. This doesn't happen in FFG's Star Wars and I love it.

I really like the way Wounds and Strain work, especially Strain. Been walking for hours through a sweltering jungle filled with biting insects? Take two Strain. A hit, but nothing too fiddly or deadly. And Strain is a great resource to attack as a social character, even in combat. We had a Politico defeat a pirate minion group by draining their Strain with Scathing Tirade and it was very cool.

The Force...love it! Without getting into a metaphysical debate, I enjoy the way the Force die works and feel the "Jedi progression" is good. The Force powers are well-represented and, even though I had reservations at first, blocking blaster bolts (as well as giving them back) is done nicely.

I really enjoy how easy it is to transfer from Personal to Planetary scale combat and with few exceptions, vehicular combat is a very cool.

Obligation, Duty and Morality are awesome, especially since you can mix and match them in any way that works for your group. Love a seedy, underworld game and want to be a Force-user, but don't want to dig into the naval-gazing of Morality? Just use Obligation and the taking of Strain when calling on the dark side is enough. Hell, ditch the "sin list" and just take Conflict on Force use. Options.

I'm sure there's more but that's all I can think of right now.

My main beef with FFG's Star Wars RPGs is a seeming narrative focus and freewheeling feel in the mechanics, yet PC abilities are set into small discrete parcels like "you can ignore one black dice when hacking computer". I feel like it undermines the most interesting part of the RPGs with a terrible 3e style feat system.

Quote from: Skywalker;820714My main beef with FFG's Star Wars RPGs is a seeming narrative focus and freewheeling feel in the mechanics, yet PC abilities are set into small discrete parcels like "you can ignore one black dice when hacking computer". I feel like it undermines the most interesting part of the RPGs with a terrible 3e style feat system.

Over time I've come to see Talents as little bennies, not your whole deal, but I see how that system for abilities seems too structured. Once I hammered home that your skills trump Talents in most cases and to go with your concept, the trees became a rather pleassant forest to walk through. ;)

 As far as the "remove the little black die" Talents go, I found those a little "Meh..." until I got used to using Boost and Setback dice as well as making sure people got a chance/had to get outside of their "job box". Setback dice are a great way to up the ante without hammering players and they're a quick and easy "modifier". A simple, small way to say, "This is a little more complicated...", you know?

Scenes such as when the Politico has to slice a computer while the senator she's meeting with uses the 'fresher or when the Pilot's hurt and the Mercenary Soldier has to fly. It's at those times these kinds of Talents shine and make the specialists feel special, but they're not so needed so as to completely screw those without them.

To be honest, when I first read the skills and saw all the ways symbols could be used I was grumpy that I'd have to memorize them. Once I started running the game those suggestions became apparent as such and a great fall-back.

One thing I really like is how many times I've seen players buy things outside their job, and it's easy to do without breaking the XP bank. It's cool how everyone can step out of their lane to strengthen themselves without stepping on the specialists. For example, your Marauder can buy up Charm without hurting the Charmer's schtick and that Charmer can get a little Melee to get with the stabby while leaving the Marauder as the melee doom-machine.

Another thing I like (you got me on a roll, Skywalker! :)) is that a Force-user...say Shii Cho Knight going toe-to-toe with a Marauder...both at equal XP...isn't  necessarily going to always win. Does the Knight have an advantage if they have a lightsaber? Sure, but maybe the Marauder's wielding a cortosis weapon. It's not always an easy debate but the point is that it's not "Jedi trumps all" in every case (although high-XP Force-users do enjoy some badassery).

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;820708... there are times when we just "ditch" potential things. It's all fallen into place, but I can see the urge to wrack your brains with each roll. What I like is the option to fiddle; you don't have to all the time.

this is the secret to enjoying the system in my view.

Quote from: shlominus;820720this is the secret to enjoying the system in my view.

Yeah, it's cool, right? Not just a binary result, but a little nudge when proper. As a GM who loves story and surprises, the dice make it easier and fun to nudge things without railroading.

The "Yes but" nature of the dice system is excellent for generating Star Wars style action sequences that balance success with the snowballing of problems.

Quote from: jeff37923;820693And that is why most people would not fuck with it if it wasn't STAR WARS.

License to print money! :D

It is the worst rpg that I have ever actually played.  Ran the gang through the starter set adventure.  Gave it away afterward.

I do not mind using proprietary dice, no big deal.  But figuring out what to roll was a pain in the ass.  Was barely getting the hang of it by the end of the adventure.  Surely it is a skill that will grow with time, but what a fuking crappy skill to spend time learning.  No other game requires much of any thought on what dice to roll.

And the results are a pain in the ass.  Constantly coming up with extra thingies that happen on most rolls is fatiguing and leads to spending way too much time dealing with complications rather than the PC's actual objectives.

And tracking the wind/strain/whatever nearly every roll was as pointless as it was annoying.

The included adventure was already bland, crappy, and short.  The game system actively hindered even trying to salvage the adventure.  Just doesn't work with my gameplay.

Quote from: Skywalker;820723The "Yes but" nature of the dice system is excellent for generating Star Wars style action sequences that balance success with the snowballing of problems.

that does sound very star wars

still not a game for me but you make a very good point

Quote from: Old One Eye;820729I do not mind using proprietary dice, no big deal.  But figuring out what to roll was a pain in the ass.  Was barely getting the hang of it by the end of the adventure.  Surely it is a skill that will grow with time, but what a fuking crappy skill to spend time learning.  No other game requires much of any thought on what dice to roll.

I really really don't think it is nearly as complicated as people make it out to be, it just rolls everything into the dice roll itself.

Take L5R for comparison.

Roll a number of dice equal to stat+skill, keep a number of dice equal to stat against a TN set by the GM, based on task difficulty, then adjusted by circumstances, with raises allowed for extra effects.

FFG Star Wars

Roll a number of dice equal to the higher of stat or skill, with a number being yellow equal to the lower of stat or skill, and the rest green, against a number of purple and red dice set by the GM based on task difficulty, and add black or blue dice based on circumstances, with advantage/disadvantage spent for extra effects.

Its effectively the same thing, despite the difference in number of words.

I've never played L5R.  If its dice are like the Star Wars game, then it sounds terrible.  ;)

honestly the l5r does not sound to bad but the star wars bleh

Quote from: TristramEvans;820334...and surprising lack of species to play were more than a little disappointing (yes, I guess I was spoiled by WEG's SW RPG).

In WEG 1e, the corebook had only 2 alien species, being the Wookiee and the Alien Student of the Force. In WEG 2e R&E, there were 8 alien species (and 1 of those is an Ewok).

Each of the FFG corebooks has 6 alien species. That doesn't seem to be markedly different.

speaking of star wars aliens i dont think i have ever seen a male twilek i guess that may have something to do with most of there deceptions being as exotic dancers

Quote from: tuypo1;820744honestly the l5r does not sound to bad but the star wars bleh

That is because it really isn't.  With L5R you still got a TN (target number) to beat.  Sure you roll a number of dice and keep a certain amount of dice that you want.  At the end of the day you still got to beat that TN.

With EotE you got funky dice in which you got to memories which result is good and which result is bad.  Which in of itself sounds simple cause hey FATE does it too, but the thing is FATE uses well known symbols.  You know a + means add more, 0 means nothing, and - means subtract more.  EotE uses symbols that are not that well known and require time to learn.  

Though my biggest complaint about the dice and the mechanics that support those dice is they are not needed.  In fact your trading away decades of well known role playing mechanics that had advance the plots of millions of characters and for what?  Being able to use "fun" dice that isn't fun at all to begin with.  I never once ran into a game where the dice actually brought people to the table.  It was the things going on in the game that brought people to the table.

Quote from: tuypo1;820749speaking of star wars aliens i dont think i have ever seen a male twilek i guess that may have something to do with most of there deceptions being as exotic dancers

What about Bib Fortuna? He is probably the most prominent Twi'lek in the Star Wars franchise.

(http://i926.photobucket.com/albums/ad101/Dr_Dengar/Star%20Wars/bib_fortuna.jpg)

Two dollar whores got more integrity than Bid Fortuna.  Seriously his big part of the film is getting mind influence by Luke and came to Jabba like a bitch thinking he would get fortune.  Then again who in the hell would be stupid enough to work for Jabba the Hutt other than bounty hunters?  Seriously at least the bounty hunters are armed to the teeth and the slave dancers didn't really have a choice.

Quote from: Snowman0147;820753Seriously his big part of the film is getting mind influence by Luke and came to Jabba like a bitch thinking he would get fortune.

That may be. What I said was that he is the Twi'lek with the biggest speaking part in any of the Star Wars movies.

Quote from: Skywalker;820751What about Bib Fortuna? He is probably the most prominent Twi'lek in the Star Wars franchise.

(http://i926.photobucket.com/albums/ad101/Dr_Dengar/Star%20Wars/bib_fortuna.jpg)

well i guess i was wrong

i was going more off expanded universe because i have never actually seen the movies except for the phantom menace

i really need to watch them one of these days

Quote from: tuypo1;820755i was going more off expanded universe because i have never actually seen the movies except for the phantom menace

WTF! Why are you even in this thread? :confused: :D

i might not have seen the movies but i have seen enough expanded universe to be relevant

Quote from: Skywalker;820754That may be. What I said was that he is the Twi'lek with the biggest speaking part in any of the Star Wars movies.

Still I am pretty sure he is the reason why no one wants to play as a male Twi'lek.  That and the women are hot so that is also hard to resist.

Quote from: tuypo1;820757i might not have seen the movies but i have seen enough expanded universe to be relevant

Didn't they killed off the expanded universe?  Oh wait they did.  Shame since that includes KotoR which in my opinion is the greatest part of the expanded universe.

Quote from: Snowman0147;820760Didn't they killed off the expanded universe?  Oh wait they did.  Shame since that includes KotoR which in my opinion is the greatest part of the expanded universe.

im just sad to see the force unleash rendered non canon like you said the female Twi'lek are hot but none of them can stand up to marris brood. that said the story was pretty weak and thats the only effect the change has voiding the story you can still continue to enjoy the great game-play. on the other hand as a character marris was probably the best written part of the game so its doubly sad to see her go.

im going to go play some force unleashed.

Quote from: Snowman0147;820759Still I am pretty sure he is the reason why no one wants to play as a male Twi'lek.

In WEG D6 I played a male Twi'lek... he was a Harry Mudd-styled space pimp who salted the ladyparts of his employees with a hallucinogenic fungus. He lost most of his stable early on when he and his partner (a lady Twi'lek) had to quick vacate their pleasure barge due to Imperial meddling.
One of my all-time favorite PCs... too bad the rest of the campaign was a boring rehash of A New Hope.

i played a pimp in a western once i almost got linched by the townsfolk for employing male prostitutes then they calmed down.

then i got banned from the forum we were playing on and was assassinated in the middle of the night to tie up loose ends. the townsfolk were then after my killer but then the game died.

still it was fun while it lasted

Quote from: Skywalker;820748In WEG 1e, the corebook had only 2 alien species, being the Wookiee and the Alien Student of the Force. In WEG 2e R&E, there were 8 alien species (and 1 of those is an Ewok).

Each of the FFG corebooks has 6 alien species. That doesn't seem to be markedly different.

I didnt just have the corebook for WEG.

Quote from: TristramEvans;820770I didnt just have the corebook for WEG.

As with WEG, there are quite a few alien species in the supplements as well as a bunch of fan made ones online.

I am just not quite seeing how this is a source of disappointment with FFG's Star Wars RPGs.

Quote from: Skywalker;820706IME the dice is one of the least cool things about the RPG, but they alone shouldn't be something to attract or deter someone as there is a lot more game to like or dislike in the RPG TBH.

It's pretty telling that most of the people in this thread who have professed to like the dice mechanics have nevertheless admitted to ignoring them for a good portion of the time. Like, one guy just got done saying that the secret to enjoying the system is not use it.

I can only speak for my group, but when the core mechanic of a game is as screwed up as this one is the merits of the rest of the system are pretty much irrelevant.

Sure, the starship mechanics certainly look interesting. But since the core mechanic is omnipresent, it doesn't really matter. Its clunkiness infects everything.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;820740Roll a number of dice equal to the higher of stat or skill, with a number being yellow equal to the lower of stat or skill, and the rest green, against a number of purple and red dice set by the GM based on task difficulty, and add black or blue dice based on circumstances, with advantage/disadvantage spent for extra effects.

Another case in point: That's not actually the system. If advantage/threat is the only thing you're spending on special effects, then you've house ruled away the major problems with the dice mechanic.

Quote from: Old One Eye;820741I've never played L5R.  If its dice are like the Star Wars game, then it sounds terrible.  ;)

The claim that they're equivalent is nonsense. Breaking down the actual procedures for L5R:

(1) GM decides base target number.
(2) Take a number of dice equal to Stat + Skill.
(3) Decide if you want to do something special (which will raise the target number).
(4) Roll the dice.
(5) Keep a number of dice equal to your stat.
(6) Compare dice total to a target number.

Breaking down the actual procedure for FFG Star Wars:

(1) Take a number of dice equal to your stat or your skill.
(2) Convert a number of those dice to a different type of dice.
(3a) The GM gives you a set of difficulty dice, or
(3b) If you're opposing somebody, then you take a number of dice equal to their stat or skill, and then convert a number of those dice to a different type of dice.
(4) Add additional bonus and penalty dice depending on circumstances and/or the results of previous actions.
(5) You decide if you want to spend Destiny Points to convert dice.
(6) The GM decides if he wants to spend Destiny Points to convert dice.
(7) Roll the dice.
(8) Calculate successes vs. failures.
(9) If you have extra successes, spend them on special stuff.
(10) Calculate advantage vs. threat.
(11a) If you have advantages, you spend them, or
(11b) If you have threat, the GM spends them
(12) If you have a Triumph symbol, you spend it.
(13) If you have a Despair symbol, the GM spends it.

Trying to claim that those two procedures are "basically the same thing" is crazy.

I haven't played L5R since first edition, but its core mechanic was actually quite elegant and effective. It displayed none of the clunkiness seen in FFG Star Wars.

those do seem pretty different

Quote from: Justin Alexander;820779It's pretty telling that most of the people in this thread who have professed to like the dice mechanics have nevertheless admitted to ignoring them for a good portion of the time. Like, one guy just got done saying that the secret to enjoying the system is not use it.

I am not sure. It just seems to me to be the rebuttal you would expect against a focussed criticism of the dice.

As said, I am not a big fan of the dice either. But outside of TheRPGSite in places where the majority are fans of the system, the dice system appears to be a large part of the RPGs' appeal. So much so, that it tends to drown out discussion on other aspects of the RPG. Which, combined with what we have seen in this thread, was the reason for my initial comment.

Quote from: Skywalker;820777As with WEG, there are quite a few alien species in the supplements as well as a bunch of fan made ones online.

I am just not quite seeing how this is a source of disappointment with FFG's Star Wars RPGs.

Fan made ones online are irrelevant, but the point was a comparison of what was offered in the corebook of EoE we played with and the 2 core books for WEG SW 1st edition.

Quote from: TristramEvans;820783Fan made ones online are irrelevant, but the point was a comparison of what was offered in the corebook of EoE we played with and the 2 core books for WEG SW 1st edition.

So, you are comparing a rulebook against a rulebook (which has a quarter of the alien species options) and supplement?

Quote from: Skywalker;820784So, you are comparing a rulebook against a rulebook (which has a quarter of the alien species options) and supplement?

As much as the MM and DMG are supplements of the Player's Handbook, sure.

Quote from: Skywalker;820782I am not sure. It just seems to me to be the rebuttal you would expect against a focussed criticism of the dice.

As said, I am not a big fan of the dice either. But outside of TheRPGSite in places where the majority are fans of the system, the dice system appears to be a large part of the RPGs' appeal. So much so, that it tends to drown out discussion on other aspects of the RPG. Which, combined with what we have seen in this thread, was the reason for my comment.

i can understand that

Quote from: TristramEvans;820783Fan made ones online are irrelevant, but the point was a comparison of what was offered in the corebook of EoE we played with and the 2 core books for WEG SW 1st edition.

well he said as well as fan made ones there are official ones

but who am i to talk i often bitch that wizards spread the guardinals over 3 different books. for fucks sake people there not like all the other outsider alignments where there is as much variety as you can come up with there are a strictly defined amount of types theres no reason not to put them all together.

i do agree with you that races are important but its a bit foolish to claim supplements being the reason you have so much choice in one game but reject it for another game saying you expect them in core. yes it has less core races then your preferred title and thats a valid concern but thats no reason to apply different standards of what is expected of core.

Even comparing two books to one, it's still only 10 alien species to 6. I think its a stretch to say that the FFG RPGs compare unfavourably in this regard.

Quote from: TristramEvans;820786As much as the MM and DMG are supplements of the Player's Handbook, sure.

but the mm and dmg are part of core.

which technically supports your argument but your doing a shitty job of presenting it.

Quote from: Skywalker;820788Even comparing two books to one, it's still only 10 alien species to 6. I think its a stretch to say that the FFG RPGs compare unfavourably in this regard.

Well, agree to disagree I suppose. It certainly wasnt my main complaint over the mechanics. Maybe it was as much what races they were.

Quote from: tuypo1;820790but the mm and dmg are part of core.

The Star Wars Sourcebook was never expressed as being a Corebook as with the DMG and MM. True, it is universally regarded as such but only because the SW WEG 1e rulebook was so lacking in things like alien species.

what were the races as long as the zabrak are there im probably happy like i said brood was hawt so i would be likely to play one (not that the character would be very attractive my characters tend to shave bald) but on a more widespread appeal matter it is important they have a good choice of races

oh sarlac pcs could be fun or more realisticly a rancor. though i suppose those would probably work better in a more generic star wars rpg rather then one focused around bounty hunting and smuggling and whatnot but if there compatible with the other 2 anyway i suppose you could still use the info

Quote from: TristramEvans;820792Well, agree to disagree I suppose. It certainly wasnt my main complaint over the mechanics. Maybe it was as much what races they were.

Cool. :)

Do you miss the Ewoks in the Sourcebook? ;)

Quote from: Skywalker;820793The Star Wars Sourcebook was never expressed as being a Corebook as with the DMG and MM. True, it is universally regarded as such but only because the SW WEG 1e rulebook was so lacking in things like alien species.

i see

im still not sure what weg stands for though

West End Games.

Edge of the Empire (which deals with scum and villainy campaigns) contains Bothans, Gands, Rodians, Trandoshans, Twi'leks and Wookiees. I considered it to be a decent list for that focus.

Zabrak appear in Force and Destiny.

SW Sourcebook contains Ewoks, Gamorreans, Ithorians, Jawa, Mon Calamari, Quarren, Sand People, Sullustans, Twi'leks and Wookiees.

well that seems a fairly good mix of races. of course the more the better when it comes to races but if you have to have a small amount that looks like a decent list to choose from

justin, your dislike towards this game is quite entertaining, but please don't misrepresent what others are saying. you seem to have a problem understanding the system. that's ok, just don't like it then. don't make up things other people said to make your point though.

Quote from: shlominus;820720

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;820708... there are times when we just "ditch" potential things. It's all fallen into place, but I can see the urge to wrack your brains with each roll. What I like is the option to fiddle; you don't have to all the time.

this is the secret to enjoying the system in my view.

what we like is "the option to fiddle". get it? options. ditching "potential" things. for us it has "fallen into place".

what i didn't say is that the secret is "not using the system" and you know this very well. so just... don't, ok?

if you and your players feel that clunkyness is infecting everything, then maybe the game isn't for you, cause a lot of people do not have that problem. this is a badwrongfun-issue and you are on the wrong side of the argument.

does the game have problems? hell yeah! just like every other game out there. if your problems are the dice and the core system then i would advise you to play something else. you've said that you never really intended to play it, maybe this has had some impact on how you perceived it during play. several people (myself included) have stated that the were sceptical of the system at first, but quickly realised how much fun it is.

the lack of alien species is easily solved:

http://www.mediafire.com/download/g51dvua11vazi4x/Star+Wars+-+Edge+of+the+Empire+-+The+Unofficial+Species+Menagerie+3.0.pdf

should you need a race not covered and are unable to create it from scratch maybe roleplaying isn't the hobby for you, considering how easy it is with the system. +/-1 on 1 or 2 stats, a simple special rule or two... tadaa, 99% of all species done.

for once shlominus is right he was clearly talking about only sometimes ignoring it

that said if you ever have to ignore the core mechanic at all then something is seriously wrong with the system changing most things is common a core mechanic change not so much, hell im pretty sure the only reason unearthed arcana had options for changing it was an exercise to see if they could do it

Quote from: shlominus;820800justin, your dislike towards this game is quite entertaining, but please don't misrepresent what others are saying. you seem to have a problem understanding the system. that's ok, just don't like it then. don't make up things other people said to make your point though.



what we like is "the option to fiddle". get it? options. ditching "potential" things. for us it has "fallen into place".

what i didn't say is that the secret is "not using the system" and you know this very well. so just... don't, ok?

if you and your players feel that clunkyness is infecting everything, then maybe the game isn't for you, cause a lot of people do not have that problem. this is a badwrongfun-issue and you are on the wrong side of the argument.

does the game have problems? hell yeah! just like every other game out there. if your problems are the dice and the core system then i would advise you to play something else. you've said that you never really intended to play it, maybe this has had some impact on how you perceived it during play. several people (myself included) have stated that the were sceptical of the system at first, but quickly realised how much fun it is.

the lack of alien species is easily solved:

http://www.mediafire.com/download/g51dvua11vazi4x/Star+Wars+-+Edge+of+the+Empire+-+The+Unofficial+Species+Menagerie+3.0.pdf

should you need a race not covered and are unable to create it from scratch maybe roleplaying isn't the hobby for you, considering how easy it is with the system. +/-1 on 1 or 2 stats, a simple special rule or two... tadaa, 99% of all species done.

As one of Alderaan Crumb's players, I can say things have gone very well.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;820779It's pretty telling that most of the people in this thread who have professed to like the dice mechanics have nevertheless admitted to ignoring them for a good portion of the time. Like, one guy just got done saying that the secret to enjoying the system is not use it.

Not wanting to interpret a result in a narrative way isn't ignoring the system. And the system isn't any clunkier than the sacred cow, D&D. I could go on for hours as to why I scratch my head over its popularity as, IMO, it has some of the most annoying mechanics of any RPG. Even so, with all of the things I can't stand about D&D, there's a lot I still like.


Why do I bring this up? Because I, as well as many people I've known who run and/or play D&D have the same issues and end up ignoring large portions of the game to make it work. And that's actually ignoring said rules. That doesn't make D&D bad/shit/crap, just maybe not for some people, st least without fiddling. In Star Wars, not interpreting symbols isn't not using the rules, as results are guidelines and options, nothing more.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;820779Another case in point: That's not actually the system. If advantage/threat is the only thing you're spending on special effects, then you've house ruled away the major problems with the dice mechanic.

Huh? Explain, please.

You also tried to make it seem as if assembling a dice pool and interpreting it's slow and clunky and it simply isn't. The Beginner Game does a marvelous job of teaching the system as compared to the 5E set which went much more slowly, with both new and veteran D&D players. I'm not picking on D&D but as it's the RPGsite's "Exalted" (as in it's wildly popular, not in the fuckery of its fans) it's a good point of comparison to me.

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;820815Not wanting to interpret a result in a narrative way isn't ignoring the system. And the system isn't any clunkier than the sacred cow, D&D. I could go on for hours as to why I scratch my head over its popularity as, IMO, it has some of the most annoying mechanics of any RPG. Even so, with all of the things I can't stand about D&D, there's a lot I still like.


Why do I bring this up? Because I, as well as many people I've known who run and/or play D&D have the same issues and end up ignoring large portions of the game to make it work. And that's actually ignoring said rules. In Star Wars, not interpreting symbols isn't not using the rules, as results are guidelines and options, nothing more.



Huh? Explain, please.

You also tried to make it seem as if assembling a dice pool and interpreting it's slow and clunky and it simply isn't. The Beginner Game does a marvelous job of teaching the system as compared to the 5E set which went much more slowly, with both new and veteran D&D players. I'm not picking on D&D but as it's the RPGsite's "Exalted" (as in it's wildly popular, not in the fuckery of its fans) it's a good point of comparison to me.

you are right but in d&d few people are ignoring the core mechanic. although to be fair its a simple enough mechanic your cant really ignore it

Quote from: tuypo1;820817you are right but in d&d few people are ignoring the core mechanic. although to be fair its a simple enough mechanic your cant really ignore it

Yes, in that I would agree. Rolling one (or two in 5E) D20 and adding it to a number is certainly less work than gathering a dice pool, rolling and dealing with the symbols. However, that doesn't make Star Wars bad or the base mechanic clunky. It took very little time for us to grasp the system and have a lot of fun. Some people obviously had different experiences, which sucks but is ultimately OK.

That mentioned, people aren't ignoring the core mechanic of Star Wars (assembling a dice pool and rolling it) when don't use the narrative aspects of the results each and every time, most often out of combat. There are simply times there's nothing to add to a scene, but the symbols give you the option to do so.

What I meant about D&D is that it has certain rules that get in the way, such as how magic works, rolling initiative for each and every enemy (and no good way to group them), tracking their individual HP, moves, etc. Nearly all RPGs require bookkeeping and I find D&D's unpleasant. Others may find FFG's Star Wars unpleasant. Different strokes and all.

My point is that neither game is for everyone, all games have flaws and calling any game (besides F.A.T.A.L.! ;)) "shit" or something similar is ignorant.

I had posted a while back about SW:EotE vs. WEG's d6SW. I forget where, who cares. Anyway, I tried to run the game once with some newbies and it was a miserable failure. The die mechanic is pretty hard to grasp for people unaccustomed to "complex" games...I don't think we got through half the first combat. Conversely, they looked at the d6 character sheets and pretty much understood the die mechanic instantly. Roll X amount of dice over Y target number.

So, yeah, the fucking nerds can say whatever they want, but for casual gamers d6 is the way to go.

I'm a pretty die-hard d6 fan. It still remains, imo, a great system. It has its flaws, but nothing that can't be houseruled.

As extremely skeptical as I was about EotE - I picked it up. It took me one session to figure it out with my crew of players. And it just worked for us. Was the dice mechanic weird? Yeah. But it also clicked. You can use the dice for purely mechanical values, if you're not particularly feeling imaginative or are the type of GM that isn't good at improvisation. I personally don't have that problem. But I purposely used the default values for the dice (letting PC's just add/subtract dice for bare-minimum input) and the game flowed nicely.

Of course once I got my druthers going and injected the game with my personal verve for what the underbelly of the Old Republic was like... the game really took off.

Having said all that - the real question is do I like it more than WestEnd SW? That is the real litmous test. I'd put it like this...

Pros:

• Production - Production value is *far* superior. These books are meaty and gorgeous and well constructed.
• Flavor - The feel of Star Wars very much emerges from the game play. This might be due to my own love for SW and I eked it out. But I felt it required very little effort on my part.
• Internal Consistency - The encounters and roleplay worked well with the kooky dice system. Combat once run a couple of times flowed smoothly for us. And players felt comfortable coming up with extemporaneous excuses to get Boosters. Which is what the game encourages - and it worked.
• Unexpected Emergent Gameplay - As a GM - I like not feeling comfortable with knowing outcomes. The dice-system in play makes every roll a springboard to some really really cool possibilities if you're an agile GM. For me - the system is pretty powerful in squeezing a lot of possibilities from what in other systems would simply be a straightforward roll.

Cons:

• Initial Dice System - I say initial because I fully admit the dice-system is weird at first blush. But after a session, it hums right along.
• Relative Lack of content - this is almost unfair comparing it to d6, but yeah you miss all the glory of the Tramp Freighters Book, and the massive list of gear from d6. That said - there is PLENTY of cool stuff to run your campaigns with. Lords of Nal-Hutta upped the ante quite a bit as have each book that's come out since.

Do I like it better? Not sure. As much as I like d6 I think the shocking thing to me - is that I can't really decide. I think that says enough.
Is it better? Not sure. It's different. But I'll put my chip down on the table and say this: it's a fun game and system. I can definitely run the kind of Star Wars games I like - dark, not a lot of a Force-related shenannigans (though there are rules for it), and gritty-yet-adventurous sorts of fare. I freely use my library of d6 material with it to supplement lore and gauge on-the-fly gear stats.

Edit: And Fantasy Flight Games just had their Star Wars License renewed - now they can include stuff from the new movies.

Quote from: Brad;820826I had posted a while back about SW:EotE vs. WEG's d6SW. I forget where, who cares. Anyway, I tried to run the game once with some newbies and it was a miserable failure. The die mechanic is pretty hard to grasp for people unaccustomed to "complex" games...I don't think we got through half the first combat. Conversely, they looked at the d6 character sheets and pretty much understood the die mechanic instantly. Roll X amount of dice over Y target number.

So, yeah, the fucking nerds can say whatever they want, but for casual gamers d6 is the way to go.

There's only so many ways you can decide "Did this thing happen?" before it all gets rather tedious.

Quote from: Brad;820826Anyway, I tried to run the game once with some newbies and it was a miserable failure. The die mechanic is pretty hard to grasp for people unaccustomed to "complex" games...I don't think we got through half the first combat.  

Anecdotally, I recently ran both SW D6 and one of the FFG games with the same two groups of high school aged newbies. The addition of the d6s in WEG proved just as hard as the results in FFG on average. I had some players who preferred one and some who preferred the others depending on how they best processed information and previous gaming experiences. The GM's enthusiasm and ability to grasp and explain the rules in question has a big impact too.

Quote from: shlominus;820800this is a badwrongfun-issue and you are on the wrong side of the argument.

Please quote me claiming that nobody else is allowed to enjoy this game.

... you can't?

Then please stop claiming that I said things that I never said.

Quote from: shlominus;820800justin, your dislike towards this game is quite entertaining, but please don't misrepresent what others are saying. you seem to have a problem understanding the system.

I said that there were a lot of people in this thread saying that they ignored the system some of the time. You respond by quoting yourself saying that you don't use the system some of the time, but claim that this somehow contradicts what I said.

It's unclear whether you're deliberately misrepresenting what I actually said or just failing to understand it in the first place. Please clarify.

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;820815

QuoteAnother case in point: That's not actually the system. If advantage/threat is the only thing you're spending on special effects, then you've house ruled away the major problems with the dice mechanic.

Huh? Explain, please.

In the FFG Star Wars RPG, the rules as written allow you to spend advantage and threat on special effects. They also allow you to spend successes, Triumphs, and Despairs on special effects.

This is a pretty basic element of the system. I'm honestly baffled that multiple people defending the game have now professed ignorance of its core mechanic. It's as if we were talking about a car, I mentioned the gas pedal, and multiple people talking about how great the car is to drive said, "What's a gas pedal?"

What apparently everybody in this thread agrees on is that the FFG Star Wars RPG has potential if you either house rule the core mechanic or simply ignore significant chunks of it on either a periodic or constant basis.

Which, it should be noted, is what I said in the first place.

Quote from: Skywalker;820866Anecdotally, I recently ran both SW D6 and one of the FFG games with the same two groups of high school aged newbies. The addition of the d6s in WEG proved just as hard as the results in FFG on average. I had some players who preferred one and some who preferred the others depending on how they best processed information and previous gaming experiences. The GM's enthusiasm and ability to grasp and explain the rules in question has a big impact too.[/QUOTE]

That's the largest factor in my experience. I've seen groups of kids start with everything from RISUS to RIFTS and become equally proficient in the systems and (more importantly) have equal fun.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;820868What apparently everybody in this thread agrees on is that the FFG Star Wars RPG has potential if you either house rule the core mechanic or simply ignore significant chunks of it on either a periodic or constant basis.

I would say this is true of all RPG's.

And the point of contention I would make is where one says something is "significant" or not - chunk-wise or any other arbitrary denominations of rules. How does that become a criticism when people are free to use whatever works for them at the table?

If something isn't significant to a GM, ignoring it not much of an issue if the game is fun, is it?

Quote from: tenbones;820876How does that become a criticism when people are free to use whatever works for them at the table?

I suddenly feel like I'm having a conversation with Jaden Smith. "How can a rule be bad if you don't use it because you know it's bad?"

I feel like the Rule 0 Fallacy should be pretty well understood at this point. And the first, most necessary, step in fixing something that doesn't work is to acknowledge that it doesn't work in the first place.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;820868Please quote me claiming that nobody else is allowed to enjoy this game.

... you can't?

Then please stop claiming that I said things that I never said.

I said that there were a lot of people in this thread saying that they ignored the system some of the time. You respond by quoting yourself saying that you don't use the system some of the time, but claim that this somehow contradicts what I said.

It's unclear whether you're deliberately misrepresenting what I actually said or just failing to understand it in the first place. Please clarify.

In the FFG Star Wars RPG, the rules as written allow you to spend advantage and threat on special effects. They also allow you to spend successes, Triumphs, and Despairs on special effects.

This is a pretty basic element of the system. I'm honestly baffled that multiple people defending the game have now professed ignorance of its core mechanic. It's as if we were talking about a car, I mentioned the gas pedal, and multiple people talking about how great the car is to drive said, "What's a gas pedal?"

What apparently everybody in this thread agrees on is that the FFG Star Wars RPG has potential if you either house rule the core mechanic or simply ignore significant chunks of it on either a periodic or constant basis.

Which, it should be noted, is what I said in the first place.

you claim that people only enjoy the game because they ignore the core mechanic. this implies that they wouldn't if the played raw. that seems like pure badwrongfun to me, if you didn't mean to say that, i apologise.

no, you didn't say that "there were a lot of people in this thread saying that they ignored the system some of the time." what you actually did say was

Quote from: Justin Alexander;820779Like, one guy just got done saying that the secret to enjoying the system is not use it.

do you claim that you didn't refer to my quote about "the secret to enjoying the system" there? i can't read that in any other way and that's the only reason why i replied. you can hate the game if you want, i don't care. i think it's great. i'm just asking you to refrain from misrepresenting what i am saying to make a point.

you repeat your claim that people are ignorant of the core mechanic (and are therefore having badwrongfun), while to those that enjoy the system it seems clear that you somehow fail to understand it are clinging to raw, instead of embracing rai. i tried to make that clear with the quotes from the rulebook, but you seem to be ignoring those. that's ok. different people enjoy different styles or mechanics. like i said before, i like the changes you made to the core mechanic. that said, it also works raw.

i don't want a long, boring argument over what's basically just a question of taste of roleplaying-mechanics, but i'll try once more to make you understand why your assessment of how some of us use the rules is off. i still think there's some kind of disconnect.

sometimes you make a test and the outcome is trivial, or the only thing that matters is whether you pass or fail. in these instances ignoring any sideeffects is often beneficial. it doesn't take away anything from the game. there's still potential, though. if you have an idea, go for it!

at other times, you roll the dice, see the result and immediatly have an idea of what it could mean. this results in a great scene.

then there are times when you roll a check, get a result with many possibilities, but noone at the table can come up with anything interesting quickly, so you just drop it. again, nothing is taken away from the game, but, if you have stopped and forced yourself to come up with something, you would diminish your enjoyment. the game is supposed to be fastpaced and that pace is much more important than interpreting those 4 advantages someone rolled.

the system offers options on most rolls, but ignoring those options isn't the same as ignoring the system. i hope that clears up any confusion there might have been.

Quote from: Brad;820826I had posted a while back about SW:EotE vs. WEG's d6SW. I forget where, who cares. Anyway, I tried to run the game once with some newbies and it was a miserable failure. The die mechanic is pretty hard to grasp for people unaccustomed to "complex" games...I don't think we got through half the first combat. Conversely, they looked at the d6 character sheets and pretty much understood the die mechanic instantly. Roll X amount of dice over Y target number.

So, yeah, the fucking nerds can say whatever they want, but for casual gamers d6 is the way to go.

that's what i had assumed as well, but trying the system out with total rpg-newbies actually resultet in a lot of fun. in my experience it takes just a few rolls and most people are into it. i usually do a few practice-checks before the game and explain the possibilities to the players. the system actually makes it very easy for unexperienced gamers to get invested in the game. ymmv and all that obviously.

apart from my own simplistic homebrew entry system i would chose ffg-star wars for most firsttimers now.

Quote from: tenbones;820831You can use the dice for purely mechanical values, if you're not particularly feeling imaginative or are the type of GM that isn't good at improvisation.

that's what i am talking about. :)

Quote from: tenbones;820831Edit: And Fantasy Flight Games just had their Star Wars License renewed - now they can include stuff from the new movies.

ohhh, very nice! i didn't know that.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;820868What apparently everybody in this thread agrees on is that the FFG Star Wars RPG has potential if you either house rule the core mechanic or simply ignore significant chunks of it on either a periodic or constant basis.

Err, no. I don't see any potential. Not even if you ditch the complete system.

Quote from: shlominus;820940that's what i had assumed as well, but trying the system out with total rpg-newbies actually resultet in a lot of fun. in my experience it takes just a few rolls and most people are into it. i usually do a few practice-checks before the game and explain the possibilities to the players. the system actually makes it very easy for unexperienced gamers to get invested in the game. ymmv and all that obviously.

apart from my own simplistic homebrew entry system i would chose ffg-star wars for most firsttimers now.

We're probably using the same word in different ways...the type of people who think Risk is over their heads are not going to enjoy playing EotE. I know this for a fact because I have tried getting normal, non-gamers to play the game. If you're talking about gamers, or 13 year olds who have unlimited time, or whatever, then sure, they might like the game. When I was in junior high, we played way more complicated shit than EotE and reviled "rules light" crap. I am honestly quite surprised at how complex some of the games are that I used to play at a much younger age.

But now? I just don't have that kind of time, and have other hobbies, anyway. My weekly D&D game is about all I can manage regularly, so games that need handfuls of specific, expensive dice are just a pain in the ass.

Whatever, I think EotE sucks, but if you like it, then I'm not gonna say you're wrong for doing so. I do, however, think the audience isn't anyone with limited gaming time, though.

People have different styles of play. EotE didn't fit mine, mechanics-wise. Other people may play it and love it, and that's great. I bear the game no ill will. I liked the die mechanic in wFRP 3rd, or at least thought it had potential, but not for Warhammer, for reasons that EotE only exacerbated. Instead of streamlining the die mechanic, it became more intrusive in EotE. I like the mechanical side of my games to be near invisible, and both games's dice systems called to my attention how often I simply want a yes/no answer from dice and anything further is not only superfluous to my needs, but distracting.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;820526Reality check: The Beginning Game boxed sets are $30 each.

Bigger reality Check. Thats just for the base. The other classes and such and all those card packs are extra buys and that does add up. I priced it last year and it was getting up there.

This is kinda SOP for FFG though so I dont think anyone should be too surprised.

Whats the total cost up to now?

Quote from: tuypo1;820661do you actually need the fancy dice or can you just use a normal die with a reference of what each number equals

FFG I believe released a file to make a sticker sheet of the dice so you can sticker normal polyhedrals.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;820882I feel like the Rule 0 Fallacy should be pretty well understood at this point. And the first, most necessary, step in fixing something that doesn't work is to acknowledge that it doesn't work in the first place.

I'm not invoking rule 0. I'm in agreement with you. I'm saying why is this even being mentioned? It's a stipulation. Not-so-obviously I guess. If something isn't working - and you want to ignore it, and it's fun for your group - don't use it. This is true of all RPGs.

Quote from: Omega;820983Bigger reality Check. Thats just for the base. The other classes and such and all those card packs are extra buys and that does add up. I priced it last year and it was getting up there.

Is there actually any new content in those decks, though, or are they just bits of the book that have been copied into a different format... because if they're just the same content, it would be far from the first game to offer extra things for sale that you don't need.

Quote from: Ladybird;820993Is there actually any new content in those decks, though, or are they just bits of the book that have been copied into a different format... because if they're just the same content, it would be far from the first game to offer extra things for sale that you don't need.

Right! I'm a big boy. I don't need "beginner boxsets". The base book is fine to get started. I don't need the chotchskies. At the same time - I don't care if a company wants to repackage material to make a buck as long as I'm not missing out on new content.

Quote from: tuypo1;820749speaking of star wars aliens i dont think i have ever seen a male twilek i guess that may have something to do with most of there deceptions being as exotic dancers

The majordomo Luke mind controls in Jabbas palace was a male Twillek I believe.

Bib Fortuna. And wow! Wookiepedia calls him a majordomo too?

Quote from: tuypo1;820749speaking of star wars aliens i dont think i have ever seen a male twilek i guess that may have something to do with most of there deceptions being as exotic dancers

Didnt you say earlier youve never seen most of the films?

Quote from: Ladybird;820993Is there actually any new content in those decks, though, or are they just bits of the book that have been copied into a different format... because if they're just the same content, it would be far from the first game to offer extra things for sale that you don't need.

If I am reading it right then the Spec Decks are just easy reference cards. Like the spell card decks for 5e D&D. Things a player might buy but doesnt need to play. But theres just about 200$ of them now.

The rules supplements, Enter the Unknown, Sons of Fortune, etc add more career paths and more races. Probably more equipment and the Suns of Fortune looks to flesh out the Correllian area. So that does read like content not in the core. All six total another 200$ Though I believe some of those are not new content?

Suns of Fortune reads this.

QuoteSuns of Fortune is a 144-page sourcebook for the Star Wars®: Edge of the Empire™ Roleplaying Game that allows you and your friends to explore the fantastic opportunities and dangers found within the Corellian Sector, the birthplace of Han Solo and Wedge Antilles. Discover three new species, exotic weapons, dozens of vehicles, nine modular encounters that Game Masters can use in any Edge of the Empire campaign, and more!

    Extensive details for one of the most iconic regions of the Star Wars galaxy
    Modular encounters introduce exciting scenes and challenges that can serve as part of nearly any adventure
    Three new species options for player characters: Drall, Selonians, and Corellian-born humans
    A treasure trove of new weapons, armor, and gear, as well as some of the fastest ships in the galaxy

Quote from: Omega;821014If I am reading it right then the Spec Decks are just easy reference cards. Like the spell card decks for 5e D&D. Things a player might buy but doesnt need to play. But theres just about 200$ of them now.

If they aren't necessary and you don't need them, surely it doesn't matter how many of them there are?

QuoteThe rules supplements, Enter the Unknown, Sons of Fortune, etc add more career paths and more races. Probably more equipment and the Suns of Fortune looks to flesh out the Correllian area. So that does read like content not in the core. All six total another 200$ Though I believe some of those are not new content?

Suns of Fortune reads this.

I'm going to go out on a limb here, and suggest that it might not be the first Star Wars RPG to have supplement books... and while it may be new content, that doesn't necessarily mean you need it.

It's true these books are splat/adventure/content packed. I've warily picked up each one - and I'm a die-hard GM that never uses modules, so I'll say this: I own every book and adventure put out for Edge of the Empire as of last night. And I did not regret a single purchase.

I'm shocked by this fact. While I wouldn't say they're all perfect, I swear I'm being strung out because it's just enough for me to like and yet I want more. The adventures are even pretty good (yeah I said it) they're modular and easily dropped into an existing campaign. They have enough details to give you a solid idea of what a region or theme is about - but lots of elbow room to do your own thing (some GM's may not like this). If you're wanting an encyclopedic approach with content delineation like d6 - you won't get it. I believe this is FFG's SOP. I tend to not like this from a company. Keep your adventures to your self, give me my regional writeups and equipment and classes separately.

Thus far - FFG has defied my wishes... and yet... I'm digging the books. Oh... and dat artwork!... woo! I never thought I'd say "Damn... that Rodian looks badass!"

Quote from: Skywalker;820798West End Games.

Edge of the Empire (which deals with scum and villainy campaigns) contains Bothans, Gands, Rodians, Trandoshans, Twi'leks and Wookiees. I considered it to be a decent list for that focus.

Zabrak appear in Force and Destiny.

SW Sourcebook contains Ewoks, Gamorreans, Ithorians, Jawa, Mon Calamari, Quarren, Sand People, Sullustans, Twi'leks and Wookiees.

I actually think that this is a good selection of species. My only complaint is the core book's lack of Sullustans and Duros, which is solved in other books.

Though I too want more species. I would have preferred something else to take the place of the Chiss and Toydarians in the Enter the Unknown book, however.

Quote from: Jame Rowe;821135I actually think that this is a good selection of species. My only complaint is the core book's lack of Sullustans and Duros, which is solved in other books.

Though I too want more species. I would have preferred something else to take the place of the Chiss and Toydarians in the Enter the Unknown book, however.

I felt the same way about the Sullustans. But overall - I'm pretty pleased with the state of things right now. It's a good selection and only getting better.

Chiss were a no-brainer. Thrawn and SWTOR's use of them looms large (and the Chiss Ascendency is just badass. C'mon, they stopped the Empire cold. I'd give the Ascendency their own book!... but I digress)

Toydarians - bad choice imo.

I *hope* they just come out with a big book of races and race-specific gear/ships. I don't want it all piece-mealed out.

Quote from: shlominus;820940no, you didn't say that "there were a lot of people in this thread saying that they ignored the system some of the time." what you actually did say was

Oddly, the sentence immediately before what you're quoting out of context says the very thing you claim I didn't say: "It's pretty telling that most of the people in this thread who have professed to like the dice mechanics have nevertheless admitted to ignoring them for a good portion of the time."

So, here's the thing: You're obviously lying about what I said. You obviously know that you're lying. Cut it out.

Quote from: tenbones;821030Oh... and dat artwork!... woo! I never thought I'd say "Damn... that Rodian looks badass!"

No question on the books being absolutely gorgeous.

Quote from: Ladybird;821017I'm going to go out on a limb here, and suggest that it might not be the first Star Wars RPG to have supplement books... and while it may be new content, that doesn't necessarily mean you need it.

Yeah. I've never understood people complaining about the existence of optional supplements for any game line: If you don't want 'em, don't buy 'em. RPG companies are not responsible for managing your poor impulse control.

My complaints regarding the packaging of the FFG Star Wars games begins and ends with the "beta-beginning-core triumvirate x3" model that's designed solely so that they can try to sell the same core rules nine times over.

There's no real justification for it. And the claim that the core experience of the Star Wars universe is for Han Solo (EotE), Priness Leia (AoR), and Luke Skywalker (F&D) to all adventure separately from each other is utterly bizarre.

I like the EotE book. I'm planning on picking up more and running it at some point.

The dice are different, but upon reading it, it seems like it could work. I haven't delved too deep into the rest of the book however.

The way it's explained, it seems that Advantage (and therefore Triumph) have mechanical things you can spend them to invoke/trigger? If you don't like the "narrative" aspects of the game, are there not enough triggers to make some use of Advantage?

FFG's model is working (based on their GAMA presentation). I guess the detractors to that model are a SIGNIFICANT minority. :-D

Quote from: trechriron;821151I like the EotE book. I'm planning on picking up more and running it at some point.

The dice are different, but upon reading it, it seems like it could work. I haven't delved too deep into the rest of the book however.

The way it's explained, it seems that Advantage (and therefore Triumph) have mechanical things you can spend them to invoke/trigger? If you don't like the "narrative" aspects of the game, are there not enough triggers to make some use of Advantage?

FFG's model is working (based on their GAMA presentation). I guess the detractors to that model are a SIGNIFICANT minority. :-D

I have found that the system as is works very very well, as I've stated upthread. There are some issues, scaling between personal and vehicle scaling in terms of damage (which several games have had tbh) and combat with star fighters (but not anything larger like light transports and up) IMO, but these are things that are easily fixed.

The largest hurdle that I've seen for new players to this system, even if they are veteran gamers, is the narrative approach to dice results.  You can have something magnificent happen, but still fail at the task at hand, or succeed but have something detrimental happen at the same time.

It takes some getting used to, but I'd argue that any knew system takes time to come to grips with, but once you get a feel for it, it works very smoothly.

One thing I've come to enjoy, is unlike D&D, Shadowrun or Exalted, or games like that (not going to list them all), I've found very little need for "system mastery", as I've found very few if any, trap options that are detrimental to your overall ability.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;821148Oddly, the sentence immediately before what you're quoting out of context says the very thing you claim I didn't say: "It's pretty telling that most of the people in this thread who have professed to like the dice mechanics have nevertheless admitted to ignoring them for a good portion of the time."

So, here's the thing: You're obviously lying about what I said. You obviously know that you're lying. Cut it out.

that's the best you can come up with?

you ignore the fact that you clearly misrepresented what i actually said.

you ignore the whole badwrongfun-issue.

the only thing you do bring up is a claim that i left out relevant stuff you said. unfortunately it is stuff that still remains untrue, because most people are not advocating "ignoring the dice mechanic for a good portion of the time". you are simply making that up.

and then you tell me i am lying?!

Quote from: Justin Alexander;820779Like, one guy just got done saying that the secret to enjoying the system is not use it.

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;820708And there are times when we just "ditch" potential things. It's all fallen into place, but I can see the urge to wrack your brains with each roll. What I like is the option to fiddle; you don't have to all the time.

Quote from: shlominus;820720this is the secret to enjoying the system in my view.

I am lying? i am OBVIOUSLY lying?

that's rich. plenty of appropriate smiley's to chose from, but i'll settle on this one:

:huhsign:

Quote from: Ladybird;821017If they aren't necessary and you don't need them, surely it doesn't matter how many of them there are?

I'm going to go out on a limb here, and suggest that it might not be the first Star Wars RPG to have supplement books... and while it may be new content, that doesn't necessarily mean you need it.

1: That is what I said. The profession cards are optional. Dont know about the NPC decks? Its still nearly 200$ worth of stuff if you were a completist. But it is totally optional.

2: If you want more options, races, professions, sector data and equipment. Then you might need it. They come out at a relatively slow pace (for FFG) so its not a huge potential investment in one go if you started at the beginning. Its still 200$ worth of stuff though that is not in the core game.

None of this is necessarily bad. The game seeing that much support is a good thing really.

Quote from: shlominus;821166I am lying? i am OBVIOUSLY lying?

Yes.

In fact, you literally just admitted that the quote you claimed didn't exist did, in fact, exist. Lying doesn't actually get any more obvious than that.

You do understand that's what lying is, right? Saying things that you know aren't true?

Quote from: shlominus;821166you ignore the whole badwrongfun-issue.

See: This is another great example of how you're a liar.

You have literally quoted me directly responding to your claim that I'm accusing people of having badwrongfun. (Which was, it should be noted, yet another lie on your part.) You can't simply turn around and claim that I ignored it after you've already acknowledged my response to it.

Quote from: trechriron;821151FFG's model is working (based on their GAMA presentation). I guess the detractors to that model are a SIGNIFICANT minority. :-D

Sell your core rulebook 9x over and you only need 1/9th as many fans. Even less when you consider the over-priced accessories required to play.

Yeh, I gave it a whirl too.

Wasn't...you know...dreadful, but it sure wasn't the Star Wars experience I wanted.

I get what they were going for, with the dice and the drama and the stuff. But as we were playing (I wasn't running it), I kept thinking: I don't need the dice to cue me on this stuff. This is stuff I do because I'm a GM, or because I'm a player. And Fate already does this and it does it faster, better, smoother and with less oh god which fucking dice do I need to just shoot this guy?!

Oh.

And this thing that FFG has with, like, a whole new rulebook just for playing left-handed Wookiees with moustaches on Sundays?

NO

Quote from: Emperor Norton;820501Yes, because theRPGSite, which is obsessed mostly with Old School games is 100% a good representation of the entire hobby. :rolleyes:

Oh, no, a few guys on theRPGSite think its bad, the game must be shit! :rolleyes:

...or maybe they just don't like it, they have good reasons why, and it's the internet, where everyone complains.

I dunno. It could be that. Maybe not. Orange cream soda?

Quote from: Justin Alexander;821437Sell your core rulebook 9x over and you only need 1/9th as many fans. Even less when you consider the over-priced accessories required to play.

The whole 9 core rules is bullshit. I bought only 1 of the beta books, and could have easily ignored it, but I had the spare money at the time so why not? The Beginner's games are worth it just for the adventure, tokens, and dice, being as they, as I showed earlier, cheap as fuck anyway (~20 bucks if you shop around), and once again, are not necessary anyway.

There are 3 core books, and you only really need one to play. Which is still better than D&D, where you usually need at least 2 of the books to play (PHB, DM Guide).

Hell, you can even make force users without the Force and Destiny core book. (Though, honestly, if you wanted a Jedi + everyone else game, I would suggest picking up EotE and Force and Destiny for the most options. Most of the Age of Rebellion character types can be approximated with EotE careers and specializations.)

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!;821442...or maybe they just don't like it, they have good reasons why, and it's the internet, where everyone complains.

I dunno. It could be that. Maybe not. Orange cream soda?

There is a difference between "This game just doesn't work for me" and "This game is a failure and terrible and the only reason it is selling is because of the license".

And then people using proof that people on this board tend to not like it as proof that it isn't a well liked game. Which is just hilarious. As if this forum is somehow in any way representative of the entire hobby.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;821444There is a difference between "This game just doesn't work for me" and "This game is a failure and terrible and the only reason it is selling is because of the license".

And then people using proof that people on this board tend to not like it as proof that it isn't a well liked game. Which is just hilarious. As if this forum is somehow in any way representative of the entire hobby.

Incidentamally, I'm all kindsa pro-narrative...and I wasn't impressed.

What's my opinion worth? Lots. Nothin'. Everything. Not a lot. Let FFG sell it, let people play it, everybody get down to-nite. I'm not gonna but it, I'm not gonna play it; I'm set.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;821436Yes.

In fact, you literally just admitted that the quote you claimed didn't exist did, in fact, exist. Lying doesn't actually get any more obvious than that.

You do understand that's what lying is, right? Saying things that you know aren't true?

See: This is another great example of how you're a liar.

You have literally quoted me directly responding to your claim that I'm accusing people of having badwrongfun. (Which was, it should be noted, yet another lie on your part.) You can't simply turn around and claim that I ignored it after you've already acknowledged my response to it.

you clearly misrepresented what i said. that's all there is to it and anyone able to read can see that. you can try to deflect as much as you want, but it all boils down to one issue:

Quote from: Justin Alexander;820779Like, one guy just got done saying that the secret to enjoying the system is not use it.

when you wrote that, were you referring to my post about "the secret to enjoying the system" or not?

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;820708there are times when we just "ditch" potential things. It's all fallen into place, but I can see the urge to wrack your brains with each roll. What I like is the option to fiddle; you don't have to all the time.

Quote from: shlominus;820720this is the secret to enjoying the system in my view.

is that the post you were referring to? hm...?

if you did,

Spoiler

you did

you clearly misrepresented what i said. there's no way around that, no matter how hard you try to keep the issue off the table. i called you out for that shit and you seem to be unable to deal with that.

all that matters is the question whether you misrepresented what i said or not. your attempts to derail the conversation away from that topic are obvious (and quite entertaining), but ultimately futile. it's irrelevant if i omitted parts of your post if these parts are not relevant to the question at hand. it's untrue that you didn't ignore the badwrognfun issue, because i brought it up again, pointing out that your original answer was bullshit and you failed to respond to that. ARGH! LYING!

you have been in deflection mode from the moment i called you out on your shit. cause for some reason "yeah, sorry, kinda misrespresented what you said there." is somehow unimaginable. :idunno:

answer the question instead of evading it constantly. did you refer to my post? get it? answer a simple question. nothing else. if, after that, you feel like embarrassing yourself even further, i'll gladly be of service. maybe you want to talk about the term "badwrongfun"? hm...?

http://wiki.rpg.net/index.php/RPG_Lexica:ABC

QuoteSaying that a game is "bad wrong fun" indicates that the game is somehow broken, unplayable, poor quality or weak - in ignorance of the fact that many groups are playing and enjoying it regularly.

but first:

answer the question!

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbsthere are times when we just "ditch" potential things. It's all fallen into place, but I can see the urge to wrack your brains with each roll. What I like is the option to fiddle; you don't have to all the time.

Quote from: shlominusthis is the secret to enjoying the system in my view.

The secret to enjoying the system is to periodically ditch parts of the system and fiddle with it until it works. Right :rolleyes:

I've nothing against the system, but that's the most retarded bit of apologism this side of Narnia.

Quote from: shlominus;821477but first:

answer the question!

I believe Dr. Rottwang already did:

Orange Cream Soda.

I play it, I like it, I'm set. Anyone who doesn't want to doesn't have to.

Quote from: Jame Rowe;821514I believe Dr. Rottwang already did:

Orange Cream Soda.

I play it, I like it, I'm set. Anyone who doesn't want to doesn't have to.

That's not at all what I meant by "Orange cream soda", but it's definitely the best way to interpret what I meant, so it's EXACTLY what I meant by "Orange cream soda". Thanks for getting what I meant, even when what I say is...umn...

Oh, and by the way, it's Rotwang!. One 't', one exclamation point. Please get that right in the future, or else I...probably nothing.

Star Wars EotE is not only better than whatever game you like it's better than any Star Wars game ever made or will ever be made.

If you don't play it, you are sexually dysfunctional, mentally deficient, and probably a smelly nerf-herder. Probably.

Also, cherry cream soda is the bomb. Like totally.

Quote from: trechriron;821529Star Wars EotE is not only better than whatever game you like it's better than any Star Wars game ever made or will ever be made.

Ha! That's funny.

QuoteIf you don't play it, you are sexually dysfunctional[...]

...you weren't there last night.

Quote[...] mentally deficient, and probably a smelly nerf-herder. Probably.

No, I...I showered this morning. Because. You know. Last night.

QuoteAlso, cherry cream soda is the bomb. Like totally.

That's good too, when you're not in the mood for an orange cream. So is Sangría Señorial. You ever have that?

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!;821530...

 That's good too, when you're not in the mood for an orange cream. So is Sangría Señorial. You ever have that?

No, but it's on the list. Where can I obtain the Senior Sangria?

Quote from: Emperor Norton;821444There is a difference between "This game just doesn't work for me" and "This game is a failure and terrible and the only reason it is selling is because of the license".

And then people using proof that people on this board tend to not like it as proof that it isn't a well liked game. Which is just hilarious. As if this forum is somehow in any way representative of the entire hobby.

You're absolutely correct when you point out that theRPGsite popularity hardly if ever maps to commercial success.

Worth pondering, though, and completely orthogonal to the issue of whether FFG SW sucks ass or rocks — does commercial success equate with your tastes?

For all my increasing skepticism towards this message board as a vehicle for meaningful discussion beyond deliberate snark, a big part of what keeps me around is that my tastes map pretty close to theRPGsite average.

To put things back on track — having never played, I'm strongly skeptical of the funny dice, not because they're proprietary (they seem easy enough to replace or emulate with common polygonal dice), but because the multiple "axes" of success/failure seem a bit overwhelming and frankly gimmicky. What was your experience?

"I was a huge fan of RPGs. Or reading their core rulebooks anyways. Not a whole lot of actual playing going on."

Thats the point I shut off the video. Told me all I needed to know.

Quote from: The Butcher;821597To put things back on track — having never played, I'm strongly skeptical of the funny dice, not because they're proprietary (they seem easy enough to replace or emulate with common polygonal dice), but because the multiple "axes" of success/failure seem a bit overwhelming and frankly gimmicky. What was your experience?

I was personally skeptical of the funny dice when I first heard about it. I actually wasn't planning on playing it at all (I had a Star Wars system I liked already). My brother picked up the starter set for EotE and ran it and... well, it stuck.

I can see though, how it isn't for everyone. Different people can grok different things at different speeds. I think they could have made the iconography a little more obvious personally (I would have gone with a Darth Vader head for despair, very very clear image of "This is the worst thing that could happen on a roll"), but most of our players were able to pick it up very fast.

I did burn out on it for a little while, but I think it had more to do with me than the system, or well, my personality combined with the system. I was trying to make sure that the advantage/disadvantage meant something on EVERY roll, and sometimes it just doesn't need to.

I think the key to the system is that if you can't think of anything relevant in a few seconds, just apply some blue or black dice to the next roll, or heal/damage some strain, and move on.

I think it can be an issue, for certain types of players/GMs, but I don't think it will happen to every person playing. Personally, I'm a fan, but you have to remember to just not brain burn yourself on trying to think up things to happen every single time. Use it in moderation. Its like the one billion AD&D rules, use them when you need them, don't when you don't.

Its a game that isn't for everyone, and honestly, I wouldn't suggest the game for most RPGSiters, I also don't think its a very good beginner's RPG, and it definitely isn't perfect (I actually have some problems with some rules completely unrelated to the dice, like how piloting a starfighter is practically suicide, which led to a lot of house ruling in my games), but I think its a solidly fun game for those who it fits, and I think the number it fits is vastly greater than some people here think.

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!;821519That's not at all what I meant by "Orange cream soda", but it's definitely the best way to interpret what I meant, so it's EXACTLY what I meant by "Orange cream soda". Thanks for getting what I meant, even when what I say is...umn...

Oh, and by the way, it's Rotwang!. One 't', one exclamation point. Please get that right in the future, or else I...probably nothing.

:D

anyway, justin, you can keep your next witty derail to yourself. admit that you fucked up or don't, i don't care either way. i am done wasting my time with you.

Quote from: The Butcher;821597To put things back on track — having never played, I'm strongly skeptical of the funny dice, not because they're proprietary (they seem easy enough to replace or emulate with common polygonal dice), but because the multiple "axes" of success/failure seem a bit overwhelming and frankly gimmicky. What was your experience?

i felt the same way. i would suggest you try it out, if you are interested. you'll realise quickly if the system is for you or not. the key, like emperor norton said, is options. the dice offer you stuff on most rolls and you are free to use dicerolls to fuel narrative stuff, but if you don't feel like it, you can simply use them mechanically and score crits, heal strain or activate an ability from a weapon or an added effect form a skill.

it's hard to describe (a few people in this thread have said that it "just cklicked" and i know how they feel.) and i am not completely sure if i fully understand why, but the system feels like star wars.

At first I had trouble getting the dice symbols down, but once you learn the symbols the game takes on a life of its own, the different tiers of results on the dice can lead to interesting encounters on the fly, for example, you can succeed at a task , picking the security lock on the door, but also get a few threats left over in the roll, so the gm decides a silent alarm is triggered, and so a couple of Stormtroopers will soon be visiting our group of heroes, if a despair was rolled then maybe a squad of Stormtroopers happen to be behind the security locked door on cash counting detail, assuming it's a imperial pay vault, or it's a armory with weapons being cleaned. My point is the dice are story elements used to make a skill test better then pass or fail, it's a good solid system to me.

Quote from: TristramEvans;820334Unfortunately,, it was not very good. Instead of streamlining the dice system fro WH3rd, its even more clunky and has all of the weakneses I've noted in those games. The severely limited approach to the setting (essentially this is like if D&D created a separate game for each Class. EoTE is the "Rogue Class" game) and surprising lack of species to play were more than a little disappointing (yes, I guess I was spoiled by WEG's SW RPG). The book is obviously meant to be more arty than a reference manual during play (which might have been okay if it wasnt such a crunchy game that required constant reference), which was inconvenient in the least.

I shant be attempting any other games in the series.

Your experience wasn't very good. It doesn't mean the game isn't. Our group's had an incredible time with all the games for years. It sucks it didn't work for you.

Currently playing a game with a tiny crew, of me (Bounty Hunter/Assassin, except that he isn't an assassin, it's just that he's a weapons/combat expert but Gadgeteer or Survivalist doesn't map out well enough for that, he was a former Imperial Commando turned prison guard, now out for revenge) a second player (Smuggler/Scoundrel, a former Pirate's Cabin Girl whose also a member of the Rebel Alliance) and the GM.

It's worked out so far for us.

The only real issue I have is the progression system.  The inability to increase your stats is a bit silly, so we house ruled that you can increase them but 20x the new cost (so a 2 to a 3 will cost 60XP, 3 to 4 is 80) and it caps out at 5, Talents are the only way to get a 6 in something.  So far, it hasn't broken anything.  But the dice work fine for us.

Quote from: lacercorvex;961264At first I had trouble getting the dice symbols down, but once you learn the symbols the game takes on a life of its own, the different tiers of results on the dice can lead to interesting encounters on the fly, for example, you can succeed at a task , picking the security lock on the door, but also get a few threats left over in the roll, so the gm decides a silent alarm is triggered, and so a couple of Stormtroopers will soon be visiting our group of heroes, if a despair was rolled then maybe a squad of Stormtroopers happen to be behind the security locked door on cash counting detail, assuming it's a imperial pay vault, or it's a armory with weapons being cleaned. My point is the dice are story elements used to make a skill test better then pass or fail, it's a good solid system to me.

Actually, I could describe one of the adventures my character had, where every gun he had (which was about 4?  Carbine, two pistols...  And... No, just three) jammed.  I kept rolling despairs and triumphs.  The guns would jam, or be drained or something, but the GM decided that the Triumphs meant I'd find a replacement.  It played out like a Hong Kong action comedy, the moment my character found blaster pistols stashed in the potted plants in the local cantina.

Was very silly, and very fun.