Quote from: shlominus;820800this is a badwrongfun-issue and you are on the wrong side of the argument.

Please quote me claiming that nobody else is allowed to enjoy this game.

... you can't?

Then please stop claiming that I said things that I never said.

Quote from: shlominus;820800justin, your dislike towards this game is quite entertaining, but please don't misrepresent what others are saying. you seem to have a problem understanding the system.

I said that there were a lot of people in this thread saying that they ignored the system some of the time. You respond by quoting yourself saying that you don't use the system some of the time, but claim that this somehow contradicts what I said.

It's unclear whether you're deliberately misrepresenting what I actually said or just failing to understand it in the first place. Please clarify.

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;820815

QuoteAnother case in point: That's not actually the system. If advantage/threat is the only thing you're spending on special effects, then you've house ruled away the major problems with the dice mechanic.

Huh? Explain, please.

In the FFG Star Wars RPG, the rules as written allow you to spend advantage and threat on special effects. They also allow you to spend successes, Triumphs, and Despairs on special effects.

This is a pretty basic element of the system. I'm honestly baffled that multiple people defending the game have now professed ignorance of its core mechanic. It's as if we were talking about a car, I mentioned the gas pedal, and multiple people talking about how great the car is to drive said, "What's a gas pedal?"

What apparently everybody in this thread agrees on is that the FFG Star Wars RPG has potential if you either house rule the core mechanic or simply ignore significant chunks of it on either a periodic or constant basis.

Which, it should be noted, is what I said in the first place.

Quote from: Skywalker;820866Anecdotally, I recently ran both SW D6 and one of the FFG games with the same two groups of high school aged newbies. The addition of the d6s in WEG proved just as hard as the results in FFG on average. I had some players who preferred one and some who preferred the others depending on how they best processed information and previous gaming experiences. The GM's enthusiasm and ability to grasp and explain the rules in question has a big impact too.[/QUOTE]

That's the largest factor in my experience. I've seen groups of kids start with everything from RISUS to RIFTS and become equally proficient in the systems and (more importantly) have equal fun.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;820868What apparently everybody in this thread agrees on is that the FFG Star Wars RPG has potential if you either house rule the core mechanic or simply ignore significant chunks of it on either a periodic or constant basis.

I would say this is true of all RPG's.

And the point of contention I would make is where one says something is "significant" or not - chunk-wise or any other arbitrary denominations of rules. How does that become a criticism when people are free to use whatever works for them at the table?

If something isn't significant to a GM, ignoring it not much of an issue if the game is fun, is it?

Quote from: tenbones;820876How does that become a criticism when people are free to use whatever works for them at the table?

I suddenly feel like I'm having a conversation with Jaden Smith. "How can a rule be bad if you don't use it because you know it's bad?"

I feel like the Rule 0 Fallacy should be pretty well understood at this point. And the first, most necessary, step in fixing something that doesn't work is to acknowledge that it doesn't work in the first place.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;820868Please quote me claiming that nobody else is allowed to enjoy this game.

... you can't?

Then please stop claiming that I said things that I never said.

I said that there were a lot of people in this thread saying that they ignored the system some of the time. You respond by quoting yourself saying that you don't use the system some of the time, but claim that this somehow contradicts what I said.

It's unclear whether you're deliberately misrepresenting what I actually said or just failing to understand it in the first place. Please clarify.

In the FFG Star Wars RPG, the rules as written allow you to spend advantage and threat on special effects. They also allow you to spend successes, Triumphs, and Despairs on special effects.

This is a pretty basic element of the system. I'm honestly baffled that multiple people defending the game have now professed ignorance of its core mechanic. It's as if we were talking about a car, I mentioned the gas pedal, and multiple people talking about how great the car is to drive said, "What's a gas pedal?"

What apparently everybody in this thread agrees on is that the FFG Star Wars RPG has potential if you either house rule the core mechanic or simply ignore significant chunks of it on either a periodic or constant basis.

Which, it should be noted, is what I said in the first place.

you claim that people only enjoy the game because they ignore the core mechanic. this implies that they wouldn't if the played raw. that seems like pure badwrongfun to me, if you didn't mean to say that, i apologise.

no, you didn't say that "there were a lot of people in this thread saying that they ignored the system some of the time." what you actually did say was

Quote from: Justin Alexander;820779Like, one guy just got done saying that the secret to enjoying the system is not use it.

do you claim that you didn't refer to my quote about "the secret to enjoying the system" there? i can't read that in any other way and that's the only reason why i replied. you can hate the game if you want, i don't care. i think it's great. i'm just asking you to refrain from misrepresenting what i am saying to make a point.

you repeat your claim that people are ignorant of the core mechanic (and are therefore having badwrongfun), while to those that enjoy the system it seems clear that you somehow fail to understand it are clinging to raw, instead of embracing rai. i tried to make that clear with the quotes from the rulebook, but you seem to be ignoring those. that's ok. different people enjoy different styles or mechanics. like i said before, i like the changes you made to the core mechanic. that said, it also works raw.

i don't want a long, boring argument over what's basically just a question of taste of roleplaying-mechanics, but i'll try once more to make you understand why your assessment of how some of us use the rules is off. i still think there's some kind of disconnect.

sometimes you make a test and the outcome is trivial, or the only thing that matters is whether you pass or fail. in these instances ignoring any sideeffects is often beneficial. it doesn't take away anything from the game. there's still potential, though. if you have an idea, go for it!

at other times, you roll the dice, see the result and immediatly have an idea of what it could mean. this results in a great scene.

then there are times when you roll a check, get a result with many possibilities, but noone at the table can come up with anything interesting quickly, so you just drop it. again, nothing is taken away from the game, but, if you have stopped and forced yourself to come up with something, you would diminish your enjoyment. the game is supposed to be fastpaced and that pace is much more important than interpreting those 4 advantages someone rolled.

the system offers options on most rolls, but ignoring those options isn't the same as ignoring the system. i hope that clears up any confusion there might have been.

Quote from: Brad;820826I had posted a while back about SW:EotE vs. WEG's d6SW. I forget where, who cares. Anyway, I tried to run the game once with some newbies and it was a miserable failure. The die mechanic is pretty hard to grasp for people unaccustomed to "complex" games...I don't think we got through half the first combat. Conversely, they looked at the d6 character sheets and pretty much understood the die mechanic instantly. Roll X amount of dice over Y target number.

So, yeah, the fucking nerds can say whatever they want, but for casual gamers d6 is the way to go.

that's what i had assumed as well, but trying the system out with total rpg-newbies actually resultet in a lot of fun. in my experience it takes just a few rolls and most people are into it. i usually do a few practice-checks before the game and explain the possibilities to the players. the system actually makes it very easy for unexperienced gamers to get invested in the game. ymmv and all that obviously.

apart from my own simplistic homebrew entry system i would chose ffg-star wars for most firsttimers now.

Quote from: tenbones;820831You can use the dice for purely mechanical values, if you're not particularly feeling imaginative or are the type of GM that isn't good at improvisation.

that's what i am talking about.

Quote from: tenbones;820831Edit: And Fantasy Flight Games just had their Star Wars License renewed - now they can include stuff from the new movies.

ohhh, very nice! i didn't know that.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;820868What apparently everybody in this thread agrees on is that the FFG Star Wars RPG has potential if you either house rule the core mechanic or simply ignore significant chunks of it on either a periodic or constant basis.

Err, no. I don't see any potential. Not even if you ditch the complete system.

Quote from: shlominus;820940that's what i had assumed as well, but trying the system out with total rpg-newbies actually resultet in a lot of fun. in my experience it takes just a few rolls and most people are into it. i usually do a few practice-checks before the game and explain the possibilities to the players. the system actually makes it very easy for unexperienced gamers to get invested in the game. ymmv and all that obviously.

apart from my own simplistic homebrew entry system i would chose ffg-star wars for most firsttimers now.

We're probably using the same word in different ways...the type of people who think Risk is over their heads are not going to enjoy playing EotE. I know this for a fact because I have tried getting normal, non-gamers to play the game. If you're talking about gamers, or 13 year olds who have unlimited time, or whatever, then sure, they might like the game. When I was in junior high, we played way more complicated shit than EotE and reviled "rules light" crap. I am honestly quite surprised at how complex some of the games are that I used to play at a much younger age.

But now? I just don't have that kind of time, and have other hobbies, anyway. My weekly D&D game is about all I can manage regularly, so games that need handfuls of specific, expensive dice are just a pain in the ass.

Whatever, I think EotE sucks, but if you like it, then I'm not gonna say you're wrong for doing so. I do, however, think the audience isn't anyone with limited gaming time, though.

People have different styles of play. EotE didn't fit mine, mechanics-wise. Other people may play it and love it, and that's great. I bear the game no ill will. I liked the die mechanic in wFRP 3rd, or at least thought it had potential, but not for Warhammer, for reasons that EotE only exacerbated. Instead of streamlining the die mechanic, it became more intrusive in EotE. I like the mechanical side of my games to be near invisible, and both games's dice systems called to my attention how often I simply want a yes/no answer from dice and anything further is not only superfluous to my needs, but distracting.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;820526Reality check: The Beginning Game boxed sets are $30 each.

Bigger reality Check. Thats just for the base. The other classes and such and all those card packs are extra buys and that does add up. I priced it last year and it was getting up there.

This is kinda SOP for FFG though so I dont think anyone should be too surprised.

Whats the total cost up to now?

Quote from: tuypo1;820661do you actually need the fancy dice or can you just use a normal die with a reference of what each number equals

FFG I believe released a file to make a sticker sheet of the dice so you can sticker normal polyhedrals.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;820882I feel like the Rule 0 Fallacy should be pretty well understood at this point. And the first, most necessary, step in fixing something that doesn't work is to acknowledge that it doesn't work in the first place.

I'm not invoking rule 0. I'm in agreement with you. I'm saying why is this even being mentioned? It's a stipulation. Not-so-obviously I guess. If something isn't working - and you want to ignore it, and it's fun for your group - don't use it. This is true of all RPGs.

Quote from: Omega;820983Bigger reality Check. Thats just for the base. The other classes and such and all those card packs are extra buys and that does add up. I priced it last year and it was getting up there.

Is there actually any new content in those decks, though, or are they just bits of the book that have been copied into a different format... because if they're just the same content, it would be far from the first game to offer extra things for sale that you don't need.

Quote from: Ladybird;820993Is there actually any new content in those decks, though, or are they just bits of the book that have been copied into a different format... because if they're just the same content, it would be far from the first game to offer extra things for sale that you don't need.

Right! I'm a big boy. I don't need "beginner boxsets". The base book is fine to get started. I don't need the chotchskies. At the same time - I don't care if a company wants to repackage material to make a buck as long as I'm not missing out on new content.

Quote from: tuypo1;820749speaking of star wars aliens i dont think i have ever seen a male twilek i guess that may have something to do with most of there deceptions being as exotic dancers

The majordomo Luke mind controls in Jabbas palace was a male Twillek I believe.

Bib Fortuna. And wow! Wookiepedia calls him a majordomo too?

Quote from: tuypo1;820749speaking of star wars aliens i dont think i have ever seen a male twilek i guess that may have something to do with most of there deceptions being as exotic dancers

Didnt you say earlier youve never seen most of the films?