Quote from: flyerfan1991;564200Oh?

How about Tieflings.  Perceived as evil, commonly associated with trade and banking, shunned by all 'right thinking folk'.  

If you want me to Godwin this thread, that'll do quite nicely, because there's a certain group right out of the Middle Ages that fits that sort of stereotype.

See, this is a perfect example of "If you're looking to find something offensive, or associate with an offensive stereotype, you're going to find it" - especially in something as all-encompassing, creatively, as D&D.

How many monsters/races/etc. are there?  Hundreds?  Thousands?  Yeah, it's not going to be all that hard to find something that is barely, loosely analogous to a real person/place/situation/group/etc.

I'm quite sure this horseshit was old 20 years ago.

Quote from: flyerfan1991;564200Oh?

How about Tieflings.  Perceived as evil, commonly associated with trade and banking, shunned by all 'right thinking folk'.  

If you want me to Godwin this thread, that'll do quite nicely, because there's a certain group right out of the Middle Ages that fits that sort of stereotype.

That's a little bit more of a stretch; for a start I can't recall Tieflings as ever being described as being good at banking, or really having much in the way of other stereotypically Jewish traits. They're certainly not persecuted for their religion with most Tieflings choosing not to worships the gods going by their writeup. I'd say they're more like that Roma stereotype again, being transients who don't fit in among 'civilised' society, having their own rituals and customs and frequently having to turn to crime to survive.

Quote from: kythri;564203See, this is a perfect example of "If you're looking to find something offensive, or associate with an offensive stereotype, you're going to find it" - especially in something as all-encompassing, creatively, as D&D.

How many monsters/races/etc. are there?  Hundreds?  Thousands?  Yeah, it's not going to be all that hard to find something that is barely, loosely analogous to a real person/place/situation/group/etc.

I'm quite sure this horseshit was old 20 years ago.

That's exactly my point.  Holes can be poked in every RPG out there, and I doubt there's an exception.

Quote from: kythri;564203I'm quite sure this horseshit was old 20 years ago.

Oh God yes.  Only go back 30 years even, and it was the religious right saying how D&D was devil worship because it had spells and demons.  It absolutely astounds me, that after going through that period, we'd have gamers pick the pitchfork.

It's just a game.  I'm not going to be a devil worshiper by playing it any more than I'm going to join the KKK because a book left out Egypt as part of African culture*.


*I haven't actually read the book, but from what I'm reading re: the comments, that seems to be the big deal?

Quote from: Sacrosanct;564207Oh God yes.  Only go back 30 years even, and it was the religious right saying how D&D was devil worship because it had spells and demons.  It absolutely astounds me, that after going through that period, we'd have gamers pick the pitchfork.

It's just a game.  I'm not going to be a devil worshiper by playing it any more than I'm going to join the KKK because a book left out Egypt as part of African culture*.


*I haven't actually read the book, but from what I'm reading re: the comments, that seems to be the big deal?

Do I think that Tieflings are analogues for Jews?  Hell no.  Can similar arguments be made just like those found in the Golarion thread for it?  Yes.

Like I said, the folks with the pitchforks should be careful what they wish for.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;564199We are a very small game company and I can only speak from my own point of view here. So take what I say with a grain of salt. I have no idea what things are like at a place like Paizo and I am sure that many other small companies have different experiences and perspectives. I do know that for us, forums are an important driver of our web traffic and they seem to infuence our sales.

Is your main distribution channel through downloads and sites like rpgnow etc?
If you depend in those sorts of places and methods I can appreciate it might be more impacted by the views expressed on forums (for some people anyway).

For me for example with one of the bigger companies such as Paizo, I heard about Pathfinder by recommendation of friends who were playing around with the Beta.
I then waited until the full release came out and bought it in a Bricks and mortar store and didn't refer to any online opinion at all.

I also like Rolemaster and Runequest system and couldn't give a toss what people think of those systems (offline or online), although I DO like to discuss it online though.
Still, I found out about those system before the Internet even existed.

Quote from: danskmacabre;564210Is your main distribution channel through downloads and sites like rpgnow etc?
If you depend in those sorts of places and methods I can appreciate it might be more impacted by the views expressed on forums (for some people anyway).

We do both PDF and print. So we rely equally on downloads and print sales via distributors. But in terms of getting the word out about our products, the internet is our primary method of reaching customers. We do engage in other outreaches (brochures at game stores, demos, conventions), but definitely the internet is where much of the word of mouth begins for us. That said, it is much harder for me to assess things like the impact of people seeing our books on a shelf and talking to their friends. Because we are small, our shelf presence isn't going to match Paizo or WOTC. So maybe for them, just having the product on a physical shelf outweighs stuff like threads on rpg forums or banner ads. When you walk into a game store and see ten pathfinder books on display I am sure that has an impact.

My biggest concern with this stuff isn't direct book sales (cutomers walking in and buying or ordering books). I can can say, okay we might lose the people who posted on that thread at rpgnet. Rather I would be worried about two things: our long term reputation (if the conlcusions in the thread were simpy repeated elsewhere till they became the assumption) and how companies we have business relationships might react. It would only take one or two stores saying they refuse to carry our products (or put pressure on distributors not to carry them) for us to lose sales indirectly. This is where a very small group of people potentially could put a publisher like us out of business if they were set on it. If one or two distributors decided not to order our books anymore, that could be huge.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;564214We do both PDF and print...................

Yeah I appreciate what you're saying. I suppose that sort of negative attention could be scary for small businesses, especially if you've already seen sales impacted by views on forums etc..

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;564214My biggest concern with this stuff isn't direct book sales (cutomers walking in and buying or ordering books). I can can say, okay we might lose the people who posted on that thread at rpgnet. Rather I would be worried about two things: our long term reputation (if the conlcusions in the thread were simpy repeated elsewhere till they became the assumption) and how companies we have business relationships might react. It would only take one or two stores saying they refuse to carry our products (or put pressure on distributors not to carry them) for us to lose sales indirectly. This is where a very small group of people potentially could put a publisher like us out of business if they were set on it. If one or two distributors decided not to order our books anymore, that could be huge.

This is exactly my position as well.

This and the other thread on the big purple have actually made me want to pick a copy of the inner sea guide up along with any region books covering these so called "racist cultures" not because of the dumb as fuck claims some morons have made over there but more because unlike those people i actually want to find more information on these cultures before i make any judgement, im sure as heck not expecting to find anything i wouldnt find in any other setting book or even historical textbook but knowledge is its own reward they say(and i found a cheap bundle deal on pathfinder books).

Given the frequency some of the usual suspects over there make claims like this you'd expect real admins and mods to be aware of them and act to prevent these ridiculous claims from becoming such big deals, of course the admins and mods over there are part of the problem so...

Quote from: Broken-Serenity;564237Given the frequency some of the usual suspects over there make claims like this you'd expect real admins and mods to be aware of them and act to prevent these ridiculous claims from becoming such big deals, of course the admins and mods over there are part of the problem so...

i didn't read the whole thread, but it looked like the mods were pretty much siding with the OP. The one poster i saw who made some cogent points for the opposing side (if a bit aggressively at times) got thread banned and frankly nothing he said looked any worse than what anyone else was posting.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;564214My biggest concern with this stuff isn't direct book sales (cutomers walking in and buying or ordering books). I can can say, okay we might lose the people who posted on that thread at rpgnet. Rather I would be worried about two things: our long term reputation (if the conlcusions in the thread were simpy repeated elsewhere till they became the assumption) and how companies we have business relationships might react. It would only take one or two stores saying they refuse to carry our products (or put pressure on distributors not to carry them) for us to lose sales indirectly. This is where a very small group of people potentially could put a publisher like us out of business if they were set on it. If one or two distributors decided not to order our books anymore, that could be huge.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;564224This is exactly my position as well.

And mine.

Quote from: danskmacabre;564223Yeah I appreciate what you're saying. I suppose that sort of negative attention could be scary for small businesses, especially if you've already seen sales impacted by views on forums etc..

And like I said, I have made a concious decision to ignore rpgnet because i would rather have fun doing this than worry about how they might impact my business. But that does mean down the road a thread like this on one of our products could torpedo us. Personally don't think we do anything that would warrant such a thread but you never know.

Quote from: Broken-Serenity;564237Given the frequency some of the usual suspects over there make claims like this you'd expect real admins and mods to be aware of them and act to prevent these ridiculous claims from becoming such big deals, of course the admins and mods over there are part of the problem so...

They'll pick the wrong fight one of these days and someone is going to sue the shit out of rpgnet. I would immediately expect numerous unmaskings followed shortly by the mass exit of nonplayer characters from the board and the hobby. Libel, as Brendan is talking about, causing real and tangible financial harm has real and tangible repercussions. You can't mask it as "opinion" either. Well you can try, but judges are not usually idiots.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;564244And like I said, I have made a concious decision to ignore rpgnet because i would rather have fun doing this than worry about how they might impact my business. But that does mean down the road a thread like this on one of our products could torpedo us. Personally don't think we do anything that would warrant such a thread but you never know.

Probably a wise move to avoid rpg.net then, as a view that you might express might put someone's nose out and they might decide to mount a crusade against you I suppose, using whatever that can find as a pretence.

I'm SO glad RPGs are just a hobby for me. It seems like a lot of work for little financial reward. As purely a gamer and not being part of my job I can just enjoy it and don't have to deal it on a professional level.