QuoteI'm not talking specifically about Golarion. The post you originally quoted of mine was talking in general terms. And if I build an in-game culture inspired by the Zulu culture, using real aspects of that culture, and you call it racist or at the very least lazy?

You said it yourself you ripped off a culture which everyone is familiar with meaning that you have to utilize no effort in writing it.  Its fundamentally lazy in every sense of the word.

QuoteAnd now you're defending your unreasonable opinion by trying to act elitist?

Actually I'm defending my opinion by citing a pop rock band.

Quote from: technoextreme;563796You said it yourself you ripped off a culture which everyone is familiar with meaning that you have to utilize no effort in writing it.  Its fundamentally lazy in every sense of the word.

No wonder you're confused.  This is a really bad strawman.  I said Shaka Zulu was one of the most well known warriors from non-Egyptian Africa.  I had also said that I used actual historical accuracy to model the culture after.  See how those are two completely different sentences?  I didn't rip off a version that most people were familiar with.  I took a character most people were familiar with and then did more research to model accuracy.

But hey, feel free to keep making up strawmen to satisfy your righteous indignation.

QuoteActually I'm defending my opinion by citing a pop rock band.   I'm guessing humor gets lost on you too.

So you didn't say, " If your (sic) not a student of ancient culture before you talk (sic) you should read a book and try and learn from it."?

Gosh, it sure looks like you did.  That's what I was referencing.

Yeah, but what's the most obvious part of Africa?

Quote from: CRKrueger;563800Yeah, but what's the most obvious part of Africa?

The ground, I imagine.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;563794I was going by a documentary on the subject and wasn't aware of those letters.  Either way, having orcs as evil in D&D doesn't make D&D racist.  


Maybe before acting like a 4 year old, you should go back and reread my first post.  Again, I specifically said I don't know anything about Golarion specifically, but was talking in generalities.  So all of what you just said?  Not relevant at all, but rather it comes off as you making up an excuse to call other people racists with no basis behind it.  No wonder you fit in at TBP so well.

But hey, with your level of maturity and reading comprehension, I'm sure you'll go a long ways here.

Oh, the second part of the post was not directed to you specifically, it was a very general fuck you to the people bewildered that having actual historical racist stereotypes of the populations that were subjected to slavery, just to give an example, could be considered racist.

I do still think that directly translating Zulus to a fantasy setting is lazy, by the way.

Quote from: TomatoMalone;563762Sexism and racism--not overt, but extant in perpetually repeated genre conventions--is a pervasive problem in the games industry.

Cultural Marxist trolling by brainwashed pod-people is a pervasive problem on gaming bulletin boards.

Quote from: CRKrueger;563800Yeah, but what's the most obvious part of Africa?

Darfur or Somalia.

Quote from: danbuter;563806Darfur or Somalia.

Somalia does stick out on the Horn. I vote it 'most obvious'. :cool:

Quote from: danbuter;563806Darfur or Somalia.

I was going to say Egypt or the Sahara, but the Rift Valley is a good choice too.

Quote from: S'mon;563804Cultural Marxist trolling by brainwashed pod-people is a pervasive problem on gaming bulletin boards.

What the fuck is Cultural Marxism?

Also, pervasive problem? Are you actually comparing the repetition of racist stereotypes to some hippies crashing a gaming board? That's fucked up.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;563799No wonder you're confused.  This is a really bad strawman.  I said Shaka Zulu was one of the most well known warriors from non-Egyptian Africa.  I had also said that I used actual historical accuracy to model the culture after.  See how those are two completely different sentences?  I didn't rip off a version that most people were familiar with.  I took a character most people were familiar with and then did more research to model accuracy.

Yeah you did.  That whole area got culturally smashed twenty thousand ways to Sunday and yet you claim that its not lazy to write  one single culture for an entire continent.  In fact the more that you keep on yammering on the more I realize how idiotic it is to segregate cultures based upon continents.

QuoteSo you didn't say, " If your (sic) not a student of ancient culture before you talk (sic) you should read a book and try and learn from it."?

Gosh, it sure looks like you did. That's what I was referencing.

Its a refrain from a song about that area.

QuoteYeah, but what's the most obvious part of Africa?

Egypt.

Quote from: technoextreme;563818Yeah you did.  That whole area got culturally smashed twenty thousand ways to Sunday and yet you claim that its not lazy to write  one single culture for an entire continent.

How many times do I have to say I'm not talking about an entire continent?  4?  12?  I have said repeatedly that that particular culture was an inspiration for a culture in my game world.  Not that it represents all of Africa.  I did say he is the most widely known non-Egyptian warrior in Africa, and that's true.  But that's like saying Charlemagne is one of the most well known kings of Europe.  Neither is implying that the entire African culture is Zulu, or that the entire European culture mirrored Charlemagne's court.  And it's not lazy to take a culture as inspiration and build your own around it into your game world.  That's how all fantasy cultures are that remotely resemble a real world one.

Are you seriously saying that this:

"I really dig the Zulu culture, and Shaka Zulu was a great warrior and leader.  Let's create a culture in our game world that is a lot like that."

is lazy because I'm not including every culture to ever be in Africa?

Get real

QuoteIn fact the more that you keep on yammering on the more I realize how idiotic it is to segregate cultures based upon continents.

And the more you keep yammering on just shows that you don't know what I'm are talking about, but are continuing to make up arguments in your head I am not making.

Want some advice?  How about replying to what I've actually said next time instead of inferring your own biases into strawmen arguments.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;563822And it's not lazy to take a culture as inspiration and build your own around it into your game world.  That's how all fantasy cultures are that remotely resemble a real world one.

Taking a whole entire culture and plopping it into your setting is generally considered lazy.  There is a huge difference between how Eberron is written where nothing is a straight 1:1 analog of anything in the real world and stuff like the Vistani which are gypsy ripoffs.

Quote from: technoextreme;563830Taking a whole entire culture and plopping it into your setting is generally considered lazy.  There is a huge difference between how Eberron is written where nothing is a straight 1:1 analog of anything in the real world and stuff like the Vistani which are gypsy ripoffs.

How is it lazy if he is doing the work to research the culture? I think both approached are fine. On the one hand taking an approach that isn't 1:1 can be unique and interesting but taking recognizeable cultures can be handy in a roleplaying game because it gives the players something they can grasp almost immediatley. Most GMs in my experience do a bit of both.

I had an awesome response to this, but the computer ate it.

In a nutshell, Golarion has been around since 2007, if it had anything in it that was significantly racist then it would have shown up before now. Golarion has many imaginary cultures in it which many are based upon tropes of iconic human cultures, but basing something on a trope is different from basing something on reality. For an example, compare the Varisians of Golarion to the Romani of Real Life (you find that they have little in common with real life).

Is it racist? In the broadest and most inclusive sense of the definition it is. Then again, you would only be using that particular all-inclusive definition if you were trying to stir up some shit and grasping at straws. The original question came from a notorious shit-stirrer on tBP named Ettin. Now his goal is not to invite discussion, but start some drama on an internet forum. This is because starting drama on forums is how BNGs make themselves feel alive while cowering in their parent's basement instead of going out and actually playing RPGs.

If you care to recall, Frank Trollman claimed that D&D was inherently racist based upon a single miniature of an orc done in pseudo-Zulu dress. This is similar to that instance.

You can find racism everywhere if you look for it and wish to be offended by almost all that you see in the world around you. Even then, it would be a stretch to claim that a setting like Golarion from a reputable company like Paizo is "kinda racist", especially when true examples of racism in gaming exist with such products as Racial Holy War to compare it to.