...Well, ok, really, KillingMachine's post just got me thinking about what heavy generic systems are out there. On my own preferences, I'd rate stuff like JAGS and GURPS fairly medium-heavy (GURPS partisans, I know you take what you want from GURPS, I'm just sayin'). I'd rate Iridium Core just about smack-dab in the middle.
What other fairly "heavy" (IYO) generic systems are out there? Seems like a lot of the free generic systems--Fudge, FATE, Risus, several of the excellent lite d20 spinoffs, etc., are definitely fairly light in nature.
Quote from: Zachary The First...Well, ok, really, KillingMachine's post just got me thinking about what heavy generic systems are out there. On my own preferences, I'd rate stuff like JAGS and GURPS fairly medium-heavy (GURPS partisans, I know you take what you want from GURPS, I'm just sayin'). I'd rate Iridium Core just about smack-dab in the middle.
What other fairly "heavy" (IYO) generic systems are out there? Seems like a lot of the free generic systems--Fudge, FATE, Risus, several of the excellent lite d20 spinoffs, etc., are definitely fairly light in nature.
Have you checked out JAGS Revised yet? It is now my fave heavy ruleset. It's old school JAGS, but amped, refined, and much better explained.
-clash
Quote from: flyingmiceHave you checked out JAGS Revised yet? It is now my fave heavy ruleset.
-clash
Yep. JAGS is one of those systems that I really, really, really look long and hard at, but just can find the time to get into it. I have all the downloads, though, and have to get to running it one of these days. Too many good ideas not to.
I will third JAGS and HIGHLY RECOMMEND their Have-Not supplement. If you liked Gamma World then this will blow you away.
Quote from: Zachary The FirstWhat other fairly "heavy" (IYO) generic systems are out there?
HERO system.
Rolemaster is pretty generic.
I'd add Spacemaster to the list as well. The two of them combined, especially with books like "And a Ten Foot Pole" for gear from different time periods can run pretty much anything.
Although you'd need a lot of the companion books to call RoleMaster heavy...
Depends on the definition I guess. Arms and Claw Law is enough to send some gamers into a cataonic state.
Yeah, that's what tables do to some people. But that's about all there is to RoleMaster. No fancy combat rules for every imaginable situation, no huge collection of advantages, flaws, edges, kung fu techniques etc.
The depth of the few mechanisms is quite intricate, but there's no huge volume of different options, at least in the basic set.
So yes, depends on what you call heavy. It's certainly not complicated, but it fills up some pages...
Quote from: James McMurrayDepends on the definition I guess. Arms and Claw Law is enough to send some gamers into a cataonic state.
Table-phobia is rather widespread. I think it's strange - tables are just a means of cleanly organizing and presenting stuff - but I'm realistic enough to see that some people would rather wade through a zillion descriptive words than face one table.
-clash
Quote from: SosthenesAlthough you'd need a lot of the companion books to call RoleMaster heavy...
I always thought Rolemaster was pretty crunchy. I count anything more complicated than D&D as "Heavy".
I'd say that RC D&D is more complicated than basic RM. As is 2nd edition and most certainly 3E...
Quote from: SosthenesAlthough you'd need a lot of the companion books to call RoleMaster heavy...
I disagree. I think that the accounting involved in character generation and advancement and the heavy chart dependence of any but the most stripped down iterations of the game (MERP, Cyberspace) is sufficient to earn the game the title of heavy.
GURPS 4 is about an order of magnitude "heavier" than GURPS 3, so if you haven't checked out the new edition, it may be what your after.
It really feels like they deliberately tried to move in a more HERO-esque direction, addign omplexity all over the place and intriducing something resembling an effects-based approach to a lot of the ads and disads.
Quote from: McrowI always thought Rolemaster was pretty crunchy. I count anything more complicated than D&D as "Heavy".
I always thought of RM chargen as extremely crunchy. But I also consider actual gameplay incredibly smooth and simple.
I usually suggest JAGS-2 for people looking for a heavy system--but you're clearly hardcore! (this thread makes me happy!)
-Marco
Quote from: SosthenesYeah, that's what tables do to some people. But that's about all there is to RoleMaster. No fancy combat rules for every imaginable situation, no huge collection of advantages, flaws, edges, kung fu techniques etc.
The depth of the few mechanisms is quite intricate, but there's no huge volume of different options, at least in the basic set.
So yes, depends on what you call heavy. It's certainly not complicated, but it fills up some pages...
Check out the Martial Arts companion for a huge addon of kung techniques. It's an RMSS book but would transfer fairly easily.
They had merits and flaws in the form of background options in Character Law and Companion I. If you really want to go buck wild there's Talent Law, but I put that back on the shelf after flipping through and seeing the background option that lets you split yourself into multiple copies like Maddrox.
Quote from: Zachary The FirstI always thought of RM chargen as extremely crunchy. But I also consider actual gameplay incredibly smooth and simple.
Yeah, thats my thought. Gameplay wasn't that complicated, but It seems like it takes forever to roll up a character.
I'd recommend Silcore by Dreampod 9 as a pretty good Generic system with a nice level of crunch to it.
Is there some reason why 5th edition Hero System doesn't fit the bill. It is a pretty heavy system with complete freedom to make it however you want.
No reason at all. HERO is a heavy generic system. It fits the bill. :)
Rolemaster? Well, generic fantasy, yes. A generic system, like GURPS or HERO, no, not at all.
RM2 was IMHO crunchy, but not so much. RMSS/RMF, on the other hand, is a monster.:eek:
Quote from: SosthenesI'd say that RC D&D is more complicated than basic RM. As is 2nd edition and most certainly 3E...
In what facets of the games do you find the RC more complicated than basic Rolemaster?
Quote from: jrientsIn what facets of the games do you find the RC more complicated than basic Rolemaster?
Well, it's a close shave, and I'm talking about RC with all the options turned on. Character generation is faster, but then you have lots of options to consider during the game. A RM2 character is basically a collection of skills plus maybe spells. In D&D games, you've also got special class abilities and spells often act like small rules extensions, whereas in RM they mesh better with the general mechanism. Then you've got weapon mastery, name levels, vancian magic, a fuzzy skill system, an odd saving throw mechanism etc.
By no means I'm saying that RC D&D is really a very complex game, but neither is RM2. Once you get character creation behind you, it all boils down to some very few mechanisms that are universally used and easy to handle.
Quote from: SosthenesWell, it's a close shave, and I'm talking about RC with all the options turned on.
Okay, that makes some sense. I generally don't use a lot of the optional material in the RC, so it looks much lighter than RM to me.
Quote from: jrientsOkay, that makes some sense. I generally don't use a lot of the optional material in the RC, so it looks much lighter than RM to me.
It might also be different if you definition of "heavy" varies from mine. I don't have problems looking at tables, as long as I don't get to many referalls. What I consider heavy is many subsystems within the same rules. Shifting between different resolution mechanisms is something that cleary defies the term "light" for me and classic D&D is a major culprit in this area. To get into the "light" areay, you'd need additional rules simplifications, probably ending up with something like C&C.
One other defining moment of "heavy" rules is the presence of many options. And there I'd say that RM2 pales in comparison with something like HERO or D20. That's why I'd consider RM2 rules-medium. And even with SpaceMaster, it's not truly generic.
I've always been a fan of Masterbook/TORG, although that's probably not heavy enough, too. But this thread definitely got me looking into JAGS a bit more. Sounds quite interesting and judging from first looks its even readable. (Don't get me talking about the readability of free and small-press games...)
Quote from: SosthenesOne other defining moment of "heavy" rules is the presence of many options.
Part of the reason I think of RM2 as heavy is because the last time I tried to run it I had in front of me the core books and every Companion published at the time. I think that was something like 7 or 8 total supplements. That's a lot of options!
Quote from: ClaudiusRM2 was IMHO crunchy, but not so much. RMSS/RMF, on the other hand, is a monster.:eek:
You say that like it's a bad thing. Honestly I think the difference is hugely overstated. Yes, you need to have a character sheet that tells you which progression rates different skill categories run at, but so what it's just a couple more columns on a single chart.
The only things I wish they'd have done better in RMSS are:
Just hand out fixed language ranks by race. Also in SPAM, just hand out specific skills instead of batches of ranks for every bloody category. Really, when I think of it, I'd eliminate every last instance of non specific rank handouts.
The -15 for specific skills would be moved over to be a -30 for not having a rank in the category.
Intitative would be open ended d% instead of 2d10 because my players always like it beter that way.
Rolemaster 1st/2nd and Spacemaster 1st/2nd were generic fantasy and science fiction, that used the same system for both. Character generation was length, but game play was smooth. There is a lot of chart-looking up, but for me, that was one of the best parts of the game that provided a lot of fun.
GURPS 4 is a slick game. You can crunch it up a bit by using all the optional combat rules. It certainly is generic, in that it can be used to play a wide variety of genres. The free GURPS lite PDF will give you a decent idea of how the game runs. GURPS plays with a grittier feel than HERO, and in my experience combats run a little quicker.
HERO is the crunchiest of all IMO. It really takes a lot to break into initially. At times it seems to me the only way to learn is to have someone else walk you through. The game is pretty generic, with all the rules you need to run any genre in one book, and lots of supplements if you want more inspiration for a particular genre.
I haven't seen the latest editions of JAGS, but I'm going to check them out myself right now.
Quote from: GoOrangeI haven't seen the latest editions of JAGS, but I'm going to check them out myself right now.
Well, you know: tell me what you think :)
-Marco
another vote for HERO, I mean any game that a revolver looks like this in its write up is pretty heavy in my mind
.38 Special
2d6 RKA (30 Active Points), OAF (- 1), Independent (-2), 6 Charges, 4 Clips (errr... dont remember right off hand, so Ill just guess, -1/2) = 7 Points
Quote from: SosthenesBy no means I'm saying that RC D&D is really a very complex game, but neither is RM2. Once you get character creation behind you, it all boils down to some very few mechanisms that are universally used and easy to handle.
Emphasis mine. Like GURPS, Rolemaster is very 'front-loaded' with the bulk of its complexity and fiddly options showing up in character gen. After that, most everything boils down to a die roll (or two). In that respect, I agree that it's much easier to manage
during play than most versions of D&D. That said, character gen can be a whore if you don't go in with a very clear vision of what you want your character to be.