Hmm? Wizards can shoot lightning, Monks can leap tall (medieval) buildings in a single bound, psions can make crystals light up. That doesn't neccesarily outclass the fighter -- although the implementation gets pretty close.

The prequels focussed on Jedis, the only outsiders were Padme (held her own) and Jar Jar (don't get into that), so the comparison is a bit off. The clone troopers were quite impressive at times, even killing quite a few Jedi. Luke certainly out-classed almost everyone on his side in almost every regard in ROTJ, he just didn't have time to be everywhere at once.

No, I wouldn't say that gaming in the Old Republic, Clone Wars or KOTOR eras would make balance impossible. This is more a system issue and the D20 system iterations made nice progress here, as opposed to D6 where, yes, Jedis trumped everyone all the time.

Quote from: SosthenesHmm? Wizards can shoot lightning, Monks can leap tall (medieval) buildings in a single bound, psions can make crystals light up. That doesn't neccesarily outclass the fighter -- although the implementation gets pretty close.

The prequels focussed on Jedis, the only outsiders were Padme (held her own) and Jar Jar (don't get into that), so the comparison is a bit off. The clone troopers were quite impressive at times, even killing quite a few Jedi. Luke certainly out-classed almost everyone on his side in almost every regard in ROTJ, he just didn't have time to be everywhere at once.

No, I wouldn't say that gaming in the Old Republic, Clone Wars or KOTOR eras would make balance impossible. This is more a system issue and the D20 system iterations made nice progress here, as opposed to D6 where, yes, Jedis trumped everyone all the time.

Yanno, I always hear people say that about D6, but I never found it to be true in my experience.  Especialyl if you're starting scratch characters, Jedi tended to suck, because you started with a shitty number of dice in your Force skills despite the high difficulties for most of the powers, and at the expense of dice for everything else.  

Sure there were crazy powers, but because of how few dice you got, most of them'd be bloody worthless.  The games I played where we focused on Jedi, we wound up giving extra dice for Force skills, or starting off with extra CP, just so our Jedi wouldn't be more worthless than Luke was in the original Star Wars.

Quote from: SosthenesHmm? Wizards can shoot lightning, Monks can leap tall (medieval) buildings in a single bound, psions can make crystals light up. That doesn't neccesarily outclass the fighter -- although the implementation gets pretty close.

Not in any games I play they can't.

And frankly, D&D is its own thing, it isn't a licenced property where everything cool gets done by one class.

If people like d20 Star Wars that's cool, I thought it was incredibly unstarwarsy but others have had far better results and good luck to them.  Really though I'm talking setting, not ruleset, I'm not running some d6 uber alles argument here - if I ran the new version I'd just use the original trilogy as canon all the same.

Quote from: BalbinusIf people like d20 Star Wars that's cool, I thought it was incredibly unstarwarsy

You obviously haven't picked up Star Wars Saga Edition yet.

Quote from: Balbinus... if I ran the new version I'd just use the original trilogy as canon all the same.

If I were running a Jedi-centric campaign I would probably go Feng Shui, but d6 is my default system for SW. Speaking about canon, I been toying with the idea of straying from it for my next SW campaign. There's so much raw material to work from in the original trilogy that I think I could successfully pull off an alternate "epic" storyline.

I like the stuff like Luke's training on Dagobah and the mentor/apprentice relationship of the Jedi....both fucked to hell in the prequels - the antiseptic training lounge for younglings in AotC...but the animated Clone War series was damn good and really IMO in keeping with the general tone of the original trilogy.

Sorry this last para has nothing really to do with the discussion at hand...but I really don't like the prequels

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RSpeaking about canon, I been toying with the idea of straying from it for my next SW campaign.

Already working on something like this myself now that I got SAGA.  It's going to be about the early establishment of the Jedi & Sith orders and deal with how they both imbalance The Force.  I think it'll be a good backdrop to the back and forth you see in the movies.  I'm going to be discussing some more regarding political intrigue with the group.  I'd like to run it as solo adventures where each character is swaying the direction of the future of the galaxy.

Quote from: BalbinusReally though I'm talking setting, not ruleset, I'm not running some d6 uber alles argument here - if I ran the new version I'd just use the original trilogy as canon all the same.

Sorry to support the diversion from gaming...but the Dark Side(tm) was consuming me with talk of the prequels...

To help keep this on gaming/setting.  

I played, actually ran, West End Star Wars d6.  While I liked it's free-wheeling attitude, loved the art direction (of at least the early books), it's pick-a-template-add-some-dice-and-go, I had some issues with the movement/dodge rules, starfighter combat and the wound levels.  We had fun with it, but it was a little too loose on some of the rules...

Star Wars d20, which I own and read but haven't played, seemed like the pendulum swung a little to far in the rules direction.  Having never played it, I cannot say for sure.

Star War Saga...I have on order (Deep Discount (DVD) has the book $22.00 free shipping...although they aren't getting any in til 6/29), this may be the middle ground between d6 and full-blown d20...it should be interesting...

On to setting.  Every time a new version of a Star Wars RPG comes out or a new movie, I always have the urge to run my secret fantasy Star Wars campaign.  Basically the characters would be the last remnants of the Jedi trying to avoid being hunted down by Vader.  Think  Sergio Leone's Good, the Bad and The Ugly, mixed with some additional western style spaghetti, with Lee Van Cleef as Vader and numerous other bounty killers.  Might be a little dark tho...

So while I didn't really like the prequels, I think there are some areas that are ripe for pillaging.  Such as the Clone Wars (howzabout,  Tom Clancy's: Clone Wars) or the Fall of the Jedi.  Failed Trade Negotiations? Not so much.


Rich

Has anyone read the Star Wars: Legacy comics? Worst. Sith. Lord. Evah, but I think you could set some interesting campaigns in that era. Stormtroopers on both sides, at least three kinds of force users, more gray areas and still lots of Twi'Lek chicks...

Here's a thing which the original Star Wars had which none of the sequels had, not even TESB and ROTJ, and which I do miss:

Grand Moff Tarkin.

Specifically, the dynamic between Tarkin and Darth Vader in the first movie was fantastic. In Vader you have this sinister remnant of the dead religion which Vader himself destroyed, but in Tarkin you have a cold, heartless technocrat. Vader and the Emperor might provide the Empire with its spiritual heart, but it's men like Tarkin who lead the military, run the civil service, and generally keep the structure of the Empire ticking over nicely. The technological power at Tarkin's command may not be a match for the Force in the long run, but it beats the living shit out of everything else and gives the Force a run for its money too.

In many ways, it's a shame that the Emperor just turned out to be an uber-Jedi; in many ways, he should have been the perfect fusion of Vader and Tarkin's qualities, entirely willing to use both the Force and technological and logistical might to get his way.

Also, Peter Cushing is awesome.

Thanks for that, Warthur.  I was just watching Star Wars (fuck this New Hope crap :haw: ) the other day and thought - jesus that guy was cold hearted.

And the thought that - shit! If Tarkin is not the Emperor, how much of a fucking cold hearted bad ass is he?

Also, isn't Tarkin essentially in command of Vader? How interesting is that?

You've hit the nail on the head. To me it's just another example of how there were, perhaps unintentionally, these great little things running around underneath the surface hero/swash-buckling story that seemed to become less and less as the series went on.

Tarkin is the banality of Evil.

In the original conception of SW, I'm sure the Emperor was the same, not even remotely a magical/Force-type figure.

Basically, the Julio-Claudians as seen by Ronald Syme and Tacitus. (And maybe, a bit, by the Jews & Christians.)

The original novel-version of SW had an bit of introductory text that played this up. I can't find it right now, though it's surely on the web somewhere.

Quote from: James J SkachAlso, isn't Tarkin essentially in command of Vader? How interesting is that?

The interpretation that I always took from the film - and poking about on Wikipedia this is apparently the interpretation taken up by the Expanded Universe, which makes it one of the things the EU people actually got right - was that while strictly speaking from a military standpoint Tarkin outranks Vader - which is why Tarkin is giving Vader his orders when they're in public - in practice they are equally influential, which is why Vader and Tarkin talk as equals in that scene where they're alone in the briefing room. Tarkin has a hell of a lot of formal power, whereas Vader is the Emperor's hatchet-man - a sort of "minister without portfolio" with a troubleshooting remit.

This reminds me of another think I liked about the Tarkin/Vader deal: even though they represent entirely different outlooks on life, there's a certain amount of comradeship between them - they actually seem to like each other. Tarkin almost seems sympathetic when he's talking about how Vader's the last of the Jedi, for example, while Vader opens up to Tarkin far more than he does to... pretty much anyone aside from Luke.

Quote from: Elliot WilenTarkin is the banality of Evil.

In the original conception of SW, I'm sure the Emperor was the same, not even remotely a magical/Force-type figure.

Basically, the Julio-Claudians as seen by Ronald Syme and Tacitus. (And maybe, a bit, by the Jews & Christians.)

The original novel-version of SW had an bit of introductory text that played this up. I can't find it right now, though it's surely on the web somewhere.

ISTR that the original novel version actually described the Emperor as being isolated and senile, sidelined by Vader and Tarkin.

Quote from: grubmanYou obviously haven't picked up Star Wars Saga Edition yet.

Very true, it sounds much better I admit.

Quote from: Warthurisolated and senile

The emperor was supposed to be Yoda?