So, I read Evil Hat's infamous "Fate of Cthulhu".Fair warning: not all of it and not in a single sitting. I was actually stunned for 1d8 hours by the infamous two pages where they "tackle Lovecraft's racism!" I then skimmed the rest.
I will say straight away that "Fate of Cthulhu" should be cancelled by SJW, because that part of the book was incredibly "problematic". These woke wannabes packed more problematic content in two pages than Ben Shapiro in one year of videos, and no one does seem to realise that - Evil Hat much less than everybody else.
Out of the gate they ridicule themselves by stating that (drumroll) Howard Phillips Lovecraft was a racist and an anti-Semite. No way! Can you see R'lyeh up there on your high horse?
I don't know why they choose to blurt out this statement like if they were the very first to say it. The game is from 2019. You can find videos of people like Alan Moore or T. S. Joshi elaborating about Lovecraft's racism in 2013/14. Debates about his racism actually go back to the 1940s. His own Jew wife gives testimony about Lovecraft's world views as late as the 1950s. So? Where are the news?
IMHO, this is an indirect attack to Chaosium, who never pointed out Lovecraft racism in CoC. But, if so, this is still a non-problem. If you read Lovecraft you know that he was a racist. If you never read him, either you have a racist Keeper (and that's a problem of your Keeper and not of the game anyway) or the only racism you can find in CoC and other Lovecraftian games is a correct portrayal of the problem in a given historical period (something that, I agree, in a game requires a general consensus).
The real problem, here, is that their statement is truly troubling. "Howard Phillips Lovecraft was a racist and an anti-Semite." Anti-Semitism is already a form of racism, so, why the redundancy? To compound the problem, Lovecraft's xenophobia is not mentioned. Hey! I'm Italian! Lovecraft clearly throws under the bus "the Italo-Semitico-Mongoloid" Lower East Side". I want to be offended too! Are you telling me that Lovecraft disgust towards immigrants is fine with you?
My humble opinion again: Evil Hat believes that anti-Semitism is a stronger "brand" of racism. "Racism" is condemned but generic; "anti-Semitism" awakens stronger sentiments. Or maybe Evil Hat simply didn't thought things through. Or maybe they are just ignorant. Either way, they fall in a dire fumble: there is anti-Semitism and there is "the rest": Blacks, Asians & co are all grouped in a separate class. Meanwhile, white immigrants can suck wind and die. Were I a SJW I would cancel them right there.
And when you think that it can't get worse, it does.
"We could give a litany of examples, but they are easy to find with a simple Internet search."
First: N............no? I bought your book, I want to hear your opinion. I can look on the internet just fine without giving you any money. Are you conning me?
Second: Fine, I'll look on the internet. And I find opinions ranging from Moore and Joshi, to Michel Houellebecq and Ben Shapiro; and from his wife's memoirs to the exchange of letters with his friends. And I come out from my research with the understanding that "racism" is only part of a much vast and complex discourse on Lovecraft and his works. Much complex that what Evil Hat are trying to sell. Nice self-goal (not to mention what you will see in a min...)
"Look up the name of his cat, for instance"
No. Enough. If you are unable to do it yourself, why you published a book people have to pay for? My next book: "Vegan Diet for Star People from Vega". $39. Contents: "It is all on the internet. Check there!"
"In recent years, many writers, including writers of color"
...You need to specify this because writers of color are special, I guess. Nice crypto-racism right there. Why no mention of, let's say, Japanese writers? Or, more importantly, Israeli writers like Hunter C. Eden? It seemed a big thing only a few paragraphs ago. Maybe you don't mention them because it turns out that Jews can appreciate Lovecraft just fine? (much more than you, it seems, and much more able than you in understanding how his "anti-Semitism" was actually not so clear-cut: https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/arts-letters/articles/my-favorite-anti-semite-h-p-lovecraft). Or maybe because in Israel they consider anti-Semitic the very works by authors of color you are pimping? https://www.timesofisrael.com/why-does-hbos-anti-racist-lovecraft-country-stumble-into-anti-semitic-tropes/
(Incidentally, I found those links while doing the internet research you asked for. Strange how things turn out sometimes...)
All of this for a game that is:
"More Aliens and Terminator, less Shadow over Innsmouth, it's a game where instead of becoming a howling fool when faced with the terrifying truth of nightmare creatures from beyond space and time, you pick up a twelve-gauge and do what needs doing. Your job is to save the future, not to sit in a corner screaming and clawing your eyeballs out."
I.e. whose designers either don't understand or don't want to contemplate that Lovecraft's main poetic was Cosmic Horror - not racism. People who, instead of creating their own mythology which expresses their own views, never in the life will ditch Lovecraft. Because Lovecraft sells a lot, especially today. And, sure, Lovecraft must burn in Hell, but one must be crazy to ditch the Lovecraft train when you can jump on it, lazily repaint it with "progressive" ideas and rush to a publisher with your uncreative RPG.
What a pathetic, ignorant mess. And in two pages! That's the real mind bending" reality behind "Fate of Cthulhu": a game that wants to be "woke" and ends up being lazy, derivative, anaemic, hypocrite. And racist.
(https://i.imgur.com/zhv1ZUU.png)
Really Reckall,
This surprised you? This was always going to happen.
It's hypocritical of them to complain about the source author but sell a game and make money from that author's creation.
They had to 'justify' it somehow, so they changed it thereby making it 'clean'.
Quote from: Reckall on July 27, 2021, 05:28:03 PM
All of this for a game that is:
"More Aliens and Terminator, less Shadow over Innsmouth, it's a game where instead of becoming a howling fool when faced with the terrifying truth of nightmare creatures from beyond space and time, you pick up a twelve-gauge and do what needs doing. Your job is to save the future, not to sit in a corner screaming and clawing your eyeballs out."
I.e. whose designers either don't understand or don't want to contemplate that Lovecraft's main poetic was Cosmic Horror - not racism. People who, instead of creating their own mythology which expresses their own views, never in the life will ditch Lovecraft. Because Lovecraft sells a lot, especially today. And, sure, Lovecraft must burn in Hell, but one must be crazy to ditch the Lovecraft train when you can jump on it, lazily repaint it with "progressive" ideas and rush to a publisher with your uncreative RPG.
I agree with the premise of picking up a 12 gauge in a RPG setting.
In general Cosmic horror is the lamest sort of Horror.
The Evil Hat deal is they sell what is essentially a monetized version of F.U.D.G.E which did the -/+ dice pool thing. F.U.D.G.E. used to be free. I think I downloaded it from AOL back in 1995 or something.
So they make up some backgrounds here and there. But mostly they ape stuff, or do the PD tango.
How much does Dracula cost? Oh PD? Yah I'll have some Dracula. How much is Tarzan? Yah! How much is the Phantom? Oh he's still a royalty entity? Let's make up the Shade Who Travels.
Then they take that thing that they either mined from PD or made a parody/bad-copy of or declared a generic genre that is generic and they try to critique and decolonize it to get the INCEL cooties and bad-history vibes off of it.
Then they make a brainless half baked power-rush monty haul smash and grab that they try to ironically cult-market to GEEK INC.
Thus you get a Cthulhu in name only game where you power up and eat the old ones to gain their power and t-pose for dominance because you are the change you have been waiting for and if not then go cry you pissbaby.
That is the Evil Hat thing. That is what they do. Taxidermy if you are lucky, and a Crank Yankers prank call puppet show if not so lucky.
Also they try to get things pulled off of one book shelf.
They do try to follow the trends though which is why they have a blades in the dark stealth dungeon treachery game now.
Quote from: Shasarak on July 27, 2021, 05:47:47 PM
Quote from: Reckall on July 27, 2021, 05:28:03 PM
All of this for a game that is:
"More Aliens and Terminator, less Shadow over Innsmouth, it's a game where instead of becoming a howling fool when faced with the terrifying truth of nightmare creatures from beyond space and time, you pick up a twelve-gauge and do what needs doing. Your job is to save the future, not to sit in a corner screaming and clawing your eyeballs out."
I.e. whose designers either don't understand or don't want to contemplate that Lovecraft's main poetic was Cosmic Horror - not racism. People who, instead of creating their own mythology which expresses their own views, never in the life will ditch Lovecraft. Because Lovecraft sells a lot, especially today. And, sure, Lovecraft must burn in Hell, but one must be crazy to ditch the Lovecraft train when you can jump on it, lazily repaint it with "progressive" ideas and rush to a publisher with your uncreative RPG.
I agree with the premise of picking up a 12 gauge in a RPG setting.
Remember, this is a game that invites you to
pick up a twelve-gauge and do what needs doing in the same chapter where they pimp a book about how "the poor people of Innsmouth were misunderstood and severely mistreated by the racist Feds."
Can these guys have
one idea instead of always chasing the nearest woke concept the way one chases cats?
Quote
In general Cosmic horror is the lamest sort of Horror.
Some like it, some don't. There are a lot of alternatives and styles. CoC itself doesn't force Cosmic Horror on the players. You can run classic occult/horror adventures and never worry about Azathoth.
(You can run your "Terminator vs. Cthulhu" campaign with CoC, BTW, maybe with the help of Pulp Cthulhu. No need to waste money on "Fate of Cthulhu").
I will say again what I always say whenever complaints of Lovecraft's opinions come up: Any social justice crusader who dismisses a religious person's dislike for Lovecraft's work because it contradicted their beliefs about humanity has no grounds to complain when they discover Lovecraft's work contradicts their beliefs about humanity too.
It's precisely the point of cosmic horror that none of our moral sentiments, of any kind, mean anything to the universe in the end. People upset about this haven't really grasped the genre yet, I think.
Hey C'thulhu!
(https://www.whiterabbit-essen.de/shop/media/image/product/20094/lg/fate-dice-white.jpg)
(https://golfdigest.sports.sndimg.com/content/dam/images/golfdigest/unsized/2015/07/20/55ad7750add713143b427ec1_golf-tours-news-blogs-local-knowledge-bb-4.gif)
The STARS ARE WRONG, Bitch!
(https://media.tenor.co/images/1d7bb51393c9d3d369b2719fa2d19cba/raw)
(https://media.istockphoto.com/photos/winner-team-picture-id187048518?k=6&m=187048518&s=612x612&w=0&h=7VlgHAytLPuSqDzXTbDkXRUW3wu57YoXXqNRvdR9LX0=)
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 27, 2021, 07:06:24 PM
I will say again what I always say whenever complaints of Lovecraft's opinions come up: Any social justice crusader who dismisses a religious person's dislike for Lovecraft's work because it contradicted their beliefs about humanity has no grounds to complain when they discover Lovecraft's work contradicts their beliefs about humanity too.
It's precisely the point of cosmic horror that none of our moral sentiments, of any kind, mean anything to the universe in the end. People upset about this haven't really grasped the genre yet, I think.
Most of them embrace (at least intellectually) the very emptiness and meaninglessness with which Lovecraft tantalized and terrified his audiences. I think that's part of the reason his violation of their own beliefs irks them so much. Heretics are worse than pagans. :)
Quote from: Reckall on July 27, 2021, 05:28:03 PM
What a pathetic, ignorant mess. And in two pages! That's the real mind bending" reality behind "Fate of Cthulhu": a game that wants to be "woke" and ends up being lazy, derivative, anaemic, hypocrite. And racist.
You should post this as a review on TBP. :-)
Hmmm. Play a game based on the fiction written by a guy who named his cat n****r, or play a game made by a bunch of people who think black people are like orcs.
Choices, choices.
It does sound very much like "Lovecraft Country - the RPG", which would mean a hard pass for me.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 27, 2021, 09:38:43 PM
Hmmm. Play a game based on the fiction written by a guy who named his cat n****r, or play a game made by a bunch of people who think black people are like orcs.
Choices, choices.
"The Name of the Cat" (an unpublished masterpiece by Umberto Eco...) is another fumble-prone topic. First, Lovecraft gave that name to his cat when he was nine and when the word was commonly used even in the literary world, not necessarily with negative undertones. "The N****R of the Narcissus" is the original title of the novel by Joseph Conrad, published in 1897.
But, more importantly, Lovecraft gave that name to a cat, the creatures that he loved the most for all his life. So... what do we make of this? Could a use of the word towards a beloved creature be defined "hateful"? As usual, nothing in HPL is so clear-cut - an heretic concept to some.
Quote from: Reckall on July 28, 2021, 06:10:56 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 27, 2021, 09:38:43 PM
Hmmm. Play a game based on the fiction written by a guy who named his cat n****r, or play a game made by a bunch of people who think black people are like orcs.
Choices, choices.
"The Name of the Cat" (an unpublished masterpiece by Umberto Eco...) is another fumble-prone topic. First, Lovecraft gave that name to his cat when he was nine and when the word was commonly used even in the literary world, not necessarily with negative undertones. "The N****R of the Narcissus" is the original title of the novel by Joseph Conrad, published in 1897.
But, more importantly, Lovecraft gave that name to a cat, the creatures that he loved the most for all his life. So... what do we make of this? Could a use of the word towards a beloved creature be defined "hateful"? As usual, nothing in HPL is so clear-cut - an heretic concept to some.
He was nine, he obviously meant to name the cat N***A
Quote from: Reckall on July 27, 2021, 05:28:03 PM
So, I read Evil Hat's infamous "Fate of Cthulhu".Fair warning: not all of it and not in a single sitting. I was actually stunned for 1d8 hours by the infamous two pages where they "tackle Lovecraft's racism!" I then skimmed the rest.
Cancel Evil Hat. As well as The Design Mechanism.
Quote from: DocJones on July 27, 2021, 09:10:14 PM
Quote from: Reckall on July 27, 2021, 05:28:03 PM
What a pathetic, ignorant mess. And in two pages! That's the real mind bending" reality behind "Fate of Cthulhu": a game that wants to be "woke" and ends up being lazy, derivative, anaemic, hypocrite. And racist.
You should post this as a review on TBP. :-)
I wonder what would happen if I posted on TBP the words of Jew intellectuals who happen to love Lovecraft. Hunter C. Eden, for example:
I don't believe Lovecraft's fictional universe to be an elaborate racist metaphor. With a few minor exceptions (like "The Horror at Red Hook," a tedious and nonsensical screed masquerading as a horror story), when Lovecraft's racial attitudes appear in his work, they tend to surface as little asides: Just so you know, these depraved cultists are mulattoes. You roll your eyes, think, "Get over it, Howard," and then you're back with the warped fish men of Innsmouth and the Escherian geometry of Cthulhu's tomb. It's not Protocols of the Elders of Zion or The Turner Diaries; it's the literary equivalent of a cringeworthy reference to "darkies" by an older relative who you otherwise love spending time with.Posting this, simply pointing out how these are the words of a Jew horror writer, and nothing else. Banning me would mean banning a Jew. It could be worth it.
Quote from: Reckall on July 27, 2021, 06:00:20 PM
Remember, this is a game that invites you to pick up a twelve-gauge and do what needs doing in the same chapter where they pimp a book about how "the poor people of Innsmouth were misunderstood and severely mistreated by the racist Feds."
Obviously the correct takeaway is that these fish monsters should be exterminated to prevent them from tainting our pure human bloodlines with their piscine filth and poisoning our society with their filthy idolatry.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 29, 2021, 07:13:53 AM
Quote from: Reckall on July 27, 2021, 06:00:20 PM
Remember, this is a game that invites you to pick up a twelve-gauge and do what needs doing in the same chapter where they pimp a book about how "the poor people of Innsmouth were misunderstood and severely mistreated by the racist Feds."
Obviously the correct takeaway is that these fish monsters should be exterminated to prevent them from tainting our pure human bloodlines with their piscine filth and poisoning our society with their filthy idolatry.
But... but... The young girl from Innsmouth in "Winter Tide" had her life destroyed by the bad Feds. They put her in a camp in the desert. They even forbade the worshipping of her beloved god Cthulhu... How can someone be so bigoted :'(
Why?
Easy.
Dead people cant fight back.
And pissing on their grave will make the real fans scream.
Which will generate free advertising.
Quote from: Reckall on July 29, 2021, 08:20:46 AM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 29, 2021, 07:13:53 AM
Quote from: Reckall on July 27, 2021, 06:00:20 PM
Remember, this is a game that invites you to pick up a twelve-gauge and do what needs doing in the same chapter where they pimp a book about how "the poor people of Innsmouth were misunderstood and severely mistreated by the racist Feds."
Obviously the correct takeaway is that these fish monsters should be exterminated to prevent them from tainting our pure human bloodlines with their piscine filth and poisoning our society with their filthy idolatry.
But... but... The young girl from Innsmouth in "Winter Tide" had her life destroyed by the bad Feds. They put her in a camp in the desert. They even forbade the worshipping of her beloved god Cthulhu... How can someone be so bigoted :'(
Obviously the filthy fish monster deserved it.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 29, 2021, 10:35:01 AM
Quote from: Reckall on July 29, 2021, 08:20:46 AM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 29, 2021, 07:13:53 AM
Quote from: Reckall on July 27, 2021, 06:00:20 PM
Remember, this is a game that invites you to pick up a twelve-gauge and do what needs doing in the same chapter where they pimp a book about how "the poor people of Innsmouth were misunderstood and severely mistreated by the racist Feds."
Obviously the correct takeaway is that these fish monsters should be exterminated to prevent them from tainting our pure human bloodlines with their piscine filth and poisoning our society with their filthy idolatry.
But... but... The young girl from Innsmouth in "Winter Tide" had her life destroyed by the bad Feds. They put her in a camp in the desert. They even forbade the worshipping of her beloved god Cthulhu... How can someone be so bigoted :'(
Obviously the filthy fish monster deserved it.
Which is why I feel that "The Doom that Came to Innsmouth" is more honest.
All I'm gonna say is that it's easy to beat up a dead guy since he can't defend himself.
It's especially easy when he was a neurotic shut-in who was flat fucking terrified of anything outside of Rhode Island.
Quote from: Reckall on July 29, 2021, 11:08:04 AM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 29, 2021, 10:35:01 AM
Quote from: Reckall on July 29, 2021, 08:20:46 AM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 29, 2021, 07:13:53 AM
Quote from: Reckall on July 27, 2021, 06:00:20 PM
Remember, this is a game that invites you to pick up a twelve-gauge and do what needs doing in the same chapter where they pimp a book about how "the poor people of Innsmouth were misunderstood and severely mistreated by the racist Feds."
Obviously the correct takeaway is that these fish monsters should be exterminated to prevent them from tainting our pure human bloodlines with their piscine filth and poisoning our society with their filthy idolatry.
But... but... The young girl from Innsmouth in "Winter Tide" had her life destroyed by the bad Feds. They put her in a camp in the desert. They even forbade the worshipping of her beloved god Cthulhu... How can someone be so bigoted :'(
Obviously the filthy fish monster deserved it.
Which is why I feel that "The Doom that Came to Innsmouth" is more honest.
Yep. Kill all those disgusting fishies.
What I couldn't figure out about this game is how you would play it since it's a lot of investigation and very quickly you become horribly mutated. How are you supposed to talk to normal people if you have giant bug eyes and a bunch of tentacles
Quote from: PencilBoy99 on July 29, 2021, 03:24:56 PMHow are you supposed to talk to normal people if you have giant bug eyes and a bunch of tentacles
You can both start complaining about shoggoths.
Nobody likes those bastards.
(If a movie is ever made of
At the Mountains of Madness, I want to see at least one scene where one of the human characters saves an Elder Thing from a fatal fall into the abysses under the city, and then the Elder Thing saves the humans from the shoggoths by sacrificing itself. To me, the most moving paragraph of the whole story -- almost of Lovecraft's entire oeuvre, is this one:)
QuotePoor devils! After all, they were not evil things of their kind. They were the men of another age and another order of being. Nature had played a hellish jest on them - as it will on any others that human madness, callousness, or cruelty may hereafter dig up in that hideously dead or sleeping polar waste - and this was their tragic homecoming. They had not been even savages-for what indeed had they done? That awful awakening in the cold of an unknown epoch - perhaps an attack by the furry, frantically barking quadrupeds, and a dazed defense against them and the equally frantic white simians with the queer wrappings and paraphernalia ... poor Lake, poor Gedney... and poor Old Ones! Scientists to the last - what had they done that we would not have done in their place? God, what intelligence and persistence! What a facing of the incredible, just as those carven kinsmen and forbears had faced things only a little less incredible! Radiates, vegetables, monstrosities, star spawn - whatever they had been, they were men!
I say kill the starfish heads too. All xenos scum are the same.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 29, 2021, 06:13:51 PM
I say kill the starfish heads too. All xenos scum are the same.
You seem suspiciously soft on Xenomorphs.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 29, 2021, 05:12:41 PM
To me, the most moving paragraph of the whole story -- almost of Lovecraft's entire oeuvre, is this one:)
QuotePoor devils! After all, they were not evil things of their kind. They were the men of another age and another order of being. Nature had played a hellish jest on them - as it will on any others that human madness, callousness, or cruelty may hereafter dig up in that hideously dead or sleeping polar waste - and this was their tragic homecoming. They had not been even savages-for what indeed had they done? That awful awakening in the cold of an unknown epoch - perhaps an attack by the furry, frantically barking quadrupeds, and a dazed defense against them and the equally frantic white simians with the queer wrappings and paraphernalia ... poor Lake, poor Gedney... and poor Old Ones! Scientists to the last - what had they done that we would not have done in their place? God, what intelligence and persistence! What a facing of the incredible, just as those carven kinsmen and forbears had faced things only a little less incredible! Radiates, vegetables, monstrosities, star spawn - whatever they had been, they were men!
That's one of the worst paragraphs he ever wrote :(
I re-visited most of his stories about 5 years ago, and I was pleasantly surprised at how well almost all of them have held up, but that shit about the Elder Things being a bunch of brave pioneers with tentacles had me begging for the Shoggoth to show up and clean house.
Yup. Filthy starfish heads are xenos scum. I say kill 'em all.
Kill all the damn xenomorphs too
I thought this was just part of one page, and a small "digest-sized" page at that? Regardless...
Quote from: Reckall on July 27, 2021, 05:28:03 PM
IMHO, this is an indirect attack to Chaosium, who never pointed out Lovecraft racism in CoC. But, if so, this is still a non-problem. If you read Lovecraft you know that he was a racist. If you never read him, either you have a racist Keeper (and that's a problem of your Keeper and not of the game anyway) or the only racism you can find in CoC and other Lovecraftian games is a correct portrayal of the problem in a given historical period (something that, I agree, in a game requires a general consensus).
It's a difference of fanbases, publisher views, and so forth.
Evil Hat has a rep as a "progressive" or "SJW" publisher or whatever. They attract like-minded fans. Said fans want Cthulhu stuff, but... they don't want to feel guilty for wanting it. Evil Hat throws a disclaimer in the middle of the text (which, honestly, belonged at the front, but this way they can virtue signal how they force readers to confront a dead man's racism. Before everybody moves on to time travelling to shoot Cthulhu with a gun or whatever) and now the fanbase can get back to their games of blood pollution, mental disturbance tourism, and whatever other problematic issues they clutch their pearls over in public.
Chaosium and others meanwhile assume their fanbases don't give a shit if Lovecraft was racist, homophobic, or cannibalistic. The Mythos has had over a century of development by other people, and (honestly) is better than just what HPL left us with. Put another way, nobody has problems with the idea of insular town of white people breeding with Deep Ones, but some folks consider it racist that there's also an insular town of Native Americans breeding with Deep Ones. At that point I don't think the problem is on the publishers' sides.
Quote from: Reckall on July 27, 2021, 05:28:03 PM
The real problem, here, is that their statement is truly troubling. "Howard Phillips Lovecraft was a racist and an anti-Semite." Anti-Semitism is already a form of racism, so, why the redundancy? To compound the problem, Lovecraft's xenophobia is not mentioned. Hey! I'm Italian! Lovecraft clearly throws under the bus "the Italo-Semitico-Mongoloid" Lower East Side". I want to be offended too! Are you telling me that Lovecraft disgust towards immigrants is fine with you?
I'm guessing the author considers Lovecraft's anti-Semitism to be more philosophical based than racial? Or, more likely, it's a good "double-up" sound bite. Like pro-choice activists talking about "rape and incest" when discussing abortion, which implies that incest babies are separate rape babies, and will be aborted regardless of the mother's choice (or it's a redundant "double up" that sounds good).
Quote from: Reckall on July 27, 2021, 05:28:03 PM
Either way, they fall in a dire fumble: there is anti-Semitism and there is "the rest": Blacks, Asians & co are all grouped in a separate class
I'd say it depends on how HPL saw the topic (were Jews a race, or people who practiced a religion), but I suspect neither the author nor the fanbase really care.
Quote from: Reckall on July 27, 2021, 05:28:03 PM
And when you think that it can't get worse, it does.
I'll cut Evil Hat a little slack here since we can't have it both ways. We can't complain "you wasted X pages with this" and "we want you to waste more pages backing up what you say in those already wasted pages".
Is it lazy writing? Oh hell yeah, the book is full of it, but I didn't buy a game book to hear somebody tell me an artist was racist, I bought it for a freaking game (which I'll deal with later).
Quote from: Reckall on July 27, 2021, 05:28:03 PM
"More Aliens and Terminator, less Shadow over Innsmouth, it's a game where instead of becoming a howling fool when faced with the terrifying truth of nightmare creatures from beyond space and time, you pick up a twelve-gauge and do what needs doing. Your job is to save the future, not to sit in a corner screaming and clawing your eyeballs out."
"You don't sit in a corner screaming and clawing out your eyeballs. You run around screaming and clawing out other people's eyeballs."
Granted, the book won't brag about that because it basically runs counter to their whole "mental illness isn't to be shamed" shtick if people turn into threatening monsters when they finally lose it.
Quote from: Reckall on July 27, 2021, 05:28:03 PM
I.e. whose designers either don't understand or don't want to contemplate that Lovecraft's main poetic was Cosmic Horror - not racism. People who, instead of creating their own mythology which expresses their own views, never in the life will ditch Lovecraft. Because Lovecraft sells a lot, especially today. And, sure, Lovecraft must burn in Hell, but one must be crazy to ditch the Lovecraft train when you can jump on it, lazily repaint it with "progressive" ideas and rush to a publisher with your uncreative RPG.
I -like- time travellers shooting Cthulhu in the face some times. Some times I want serious, grim, nihilism in my games instead. The Mythos supports both. Remember, in his first (and only) canonical appearance, Cthulhu was defeated by a couple of guys ramming him with a boat. Granted it was a big boat, but still.
Anyways...
Once people get past the disclaimer page (or two, or less) in the book, what is there to talk about in terms of actual game content?
I'd break it down into three pieces: player facing stuff, GM facing stuff, and Fate stuff.
In terms of Fate stuff... it's functional, but sparse. Really, it should've been released as another expansion book for Fate, like Worlds of Fate or something. People could pick it up, learn the basics of the system and play with it, but it feels like the inclusion was just an excuse to pad the page count. I'd guess this was an experiment at releasing a new line of "self-contained" Fate system-setting books, where Evil Hat could reprint its "less supported" version of the system with new art, in order to attract new customers while saving a few bucks on releasing books with more pages.
Player facing stuff (i.e. the stuff players see when playing in this specific campaign), is disappointingly sparse. See, PCs are supposed to get k3w| p0w3rz and such from their time travel, and a few are included. But not nearly enough. Now, I'll admit that Fate is an established system by this point, and there's plenty of books out there with Fate powers to play with, but what's presented here is rather limited and a little uninspired. Less words on the system (which is covered in much better detail in the Fate Core rulebook already anyway) and more words here would've been appreciated.
GM facing stuff is... tough. See, the campaign idea is you travel back in time and stop the Mythos future. And there's some okay support for that, and it feels decent enough actually. And you don't just have one horrible future to fight, but four! And they're all pretty different (although you could probably massage a couple to work together if you try hard enough). The problem is... how many groups will play variations on the same, very specific, theme four times? So I fear a lot of this book is relegated to "reading it was fun, but it'll never get played". Which is a shame, since it is a pretty fun read (provided you like "time travel mutants use their super powers to fight the Mythos as they slowly degenerate into more monsters" as a premise). I wonder if maybe some of the campaigns had been combined and developed further (with the other two saved for a future release) if the product as a whole would've been strengthened.
tl;dr - the virtue signaling is present, but easily ignored. The game itself is okay, but should have been better.
I mostly agree with you, so I'll only pick a few points.
Quote from: Habitual Gamer on July 30, 2021, 12:26:52 PM
I thought this was just part of one page, and a small "digest-sized" page at that? Regardless...
You are right. I bought the .PDF because I thought it was the honest thing to do (sometimes I feel like an undercover agent who is forced to use drugs in his line of work ;)) and the rant was on page six.
Quote from: Reckall on July 27, 2021, 05:28:03 PM
Either way, they fall in a dire fumble: there is anti-Semitism and there is "the rest": Blacks, Asians & co are all grouped in a separate class
Quote
I'd say it depends on how HPL saw the topic (were Jews a race, or people who practiced a religion), but I suspect neither the author nor the fanbase really care.
The failure, here, is that they didn't actually do the "internet research" they boast they did (either that, or why they are so sure about the findings?) - before telling you "Do
our homework!"
I did. And the very first thing I searched with Google was "Lovecraft Israel" - because I realised that I never researched the opinion of Israeli writers and intellectuals. The result were those two links (just two examples among others) and the amazing discovery that Jews like Lovecraft just fine. They point out how his anti-Semitism was actually confused and bizarre (he "adopted" and groomed Robert Bloch - a Jew! - for example) and how (drumroll) the fish-men from Innsmouth are fish-men from Innsmouth, and nothing else.
And I thought "How many times people spoke about Lovecraft
for Jews without researching actual Jewish literature on the matter?"
Fanaticism is only the highway to fumble. This is just another sad example.
Quote
"You don't sit in a corner screaming and clawing out your eyeballs. You run around screaming and clawing out other people's eyeballs."
Granted, the book won't brag about that because it basically runs counter to their whole "mental illness isn't to be shamed" shtick if people turn into threatening monsters when they finally lose it.
Good point.
Quote
I -like- time travellers shooting Cthulhu in the face some times. Some times I want serious, grim, nihilism in my games instead. The Mythos supports both. Remember, in his first (and only) canonical appearance, Cthulhu was defeated by a couple of guys ramming him with a boat. Granted it was a big boat, but still.
And Chaosium pushed out "Pulp Cthulhu" for this. Still, "Fate of Cthulhu" could be a good source of ideas. Except that...
Quote
In terms of Fate stuff... it's functional, but sparse.
[...]
Player facing stuff (i.e. the stuff players see when playing in this specific campaign), is disappointingly sparse. See, PCs are supposed to get k3w| p0w3rz and such from their time travel, and a few are included. But not nearly enough. Now, I'll admit that Fate is an established system by this point, and there's plenty of books out there with Fate powers to play with, but what's presented here is rather limited and a little uninspired. Less words on the system (which is covered in much better detail in the Fate Core rulebook already anyway) and more words here would've been appreciated.
Exactly. When I read the book, at the end I only had the impression of a wasted potential. But I fully agree with palaeomerus about how Evil Hat creates their products (https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/so-i-read-fate-of-cthulhu-and-it-was-problematic/msg1180961/#msg1180961)
Quote from: Reckall on July 30, 2021, 01:14:34 PM
Exactly. When I read the book, at the end I only had the impression of a wasted potential. But I fully agree with palaeomerus about how Evil Hat creates their products (https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/so-i-read-fate-of-cthulhu-and-it-was-problematic/msg1180961/#msg1180961)
Absolutely, but that's what most publishers do: they see what consumers like that's publicly available, make a game around it, and sell it to their fanbases. Because the random person out there isn't picking up Fate of Cthulhu, or Dark Albion, or Godbound, or M&M, or whatever that isn't D&D. Fanbases keep writers and publishers going.
Fate of Cthulhu was Evil Hat cashing in on Cthulhu for a broader appeal, but also appeasing their fanbase by throwing out a "this game involves drug use, but we don't condone drugs" style disclaimer to pre-emptively protect themselves from hatemail from their fanbase. Meanwhile, all the other publishers out there who use themes from the Mythos apparently have fanbases that can distinguish between a derivative artist and the source material without any immediate projection on said derivative works.
(For shits and giggles, go Google Tcho-Tcho and Delta Green and see how many people are uncomfortable with the idea of a group of fictional Asians corrupted by the mythos as being racist. Because apparently Asians are immune to mythos corruption in their minds.)
Right. Only a racist would think that fictional species could ever be used as racist allegories (intentionally or unintentionally), regardless of how many points of similarity (racial coding) they could list off.
EDITED I touched the poop. Please delete or ignore.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 30, 2021, 09:24:37 PM
Right. Only a racist would think that fictional species could ever be used as racist allegories (intentionally or unintentionally), regardless of how many points of similarity (racial coding) they could list off.
I agree with BoxCrayonTales. Just like Dogs hear the Dog whistle, the Racists hear the Racism.
Yep. If you took something that was racist against a real group of people but replaced references to those people with some fictional species, but otherwise left the specific racist stereotypes completely intact, then the racism would vanish.
Thats true. You can see real life examples of that in the "news" right now.
Except against real races not imaginary ones so it does not rile up the "Orcists"
Quote from: Shasarak on July 30, 2021, 10:29:48 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 30, 2021, 09:24:37 PM
Right. Only a racist would think that fictional species could ever be used as racist allegories (intentionally or unintentionally), regardless of how many points of similarity (racial coding) they could list off.
I agree with BoxCrayonTales. Just like Dogs hear the Dog whistle, the Racists hear the Racism.
The idea that the Mythos can corrupt a human society is a source of horror (I would say, a powerful one). Inevitably, a depiction of this in writing or in RPGs is going to involve depicting a given community and its members in a pretty negative light. I mean, that's the whole point.
Lovecraft wrote about an instance of this corruption spreading from a Pacific Island society to New England. He is actually saying that in this sense there is nothing special about New England white anglo-saxon protestants. They can get corrupted too.
I guess Lovecraft might have said "
Even New England WASPS". But emphasising Lovecraft's racism misses the point. Even our (or rather, his) notions of racial superiority are meaningless when confronted with the Mythos. A New England WASP is no better or safer than an Asian or an African or anyone else.
I checked the whole "the Tcho-Tcho are racist!" thinghie, and I found on Reddit an answer so sane that I'll simply link it (it is also refreshing to see that it was acclaimed).
https://www.reddit.com/r/DeltaGreenRPG/comments/cdim98/the_tcho_tcho_what_the_fuck/
(Answer by Late-Term_Aborter)
"I understand that accepting the message that we cannot blindly tolerate all other cultures without looking at them critically feels like a concession to right-wing racism, but it isn't, and it shouldn't have to be. [...] The tcho-tcho are the boogeymen in a cautionary tale about ensuring you know the facts about the political and cultural relationships in other places, before taking a stance on the issues there."
The post is much longer, elaborate, and definitely worth reading.
Quote from: Shasarak on July 30, 2021, 10:45:56 PM
Thats true. You can see real life examples of that in the "news" right now.
Except against real races not imaginary ones so it does not rile up the "Orcists"
I don't know how to parse this because it has nothing to do with what I said.
Anyway, there's absolutely no possibility that real racists might use fantasy as a racist dogwhistle, or that people who don't consider themselves racist could accidentally internalize racist messages without realizing it, or that writers might use racial caricature in fantasy as a form of satire. Human beings are perfectly good or perfectly evil, there's no nuance, no shades of grey, no complexity, no flaws, no limitations. Obviously our tribe is the correct one and all others are stupid and wrong.
Quote from: Reckall on July 31, 2021, 06:22:36 AM
I checked the whole "the Tcho-Tcho are racist!" thinghie, and I found on Reddit an answer so sane that I'll simply link it (it is also refreshing to see that it was acclaimed).
https://www.reddit.com/r/DeltaGreenRPG/comments/cdim98/the_tcho_tcho_what_the_fuck/
(Answer by Late-Term_Aborter)
"I understand that accepting the message that we cannot blindly tolerate all other cultures without looking at them critically feels like a concession to right-wing racism, but it isn't, and it shouldn't have to be. [...] The tcho-tcho are the boogeymen in a cautionary tale about ensuring you know the facts about the political and cultural relationships in other places, before taking a stance on the issues there."
The post is much longer, elaborate, and definitely worth reading.
So do we exterminate the xenos scum or try to civilize them?
Quote from: Marchand on July 30, 2021, 11:42:28 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on July 30, 2021, 10:29:48 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 30, 2021, 09:24:37 PM
Right. Only a racist would think that fictional species could ever be used as racist allegories (intentionally or unintentionally), regardless of how many points of similarity (racial coding) they could list off.
I agree with BoxCrayonTales. Just like Dogs hear the Dog whistle, the Racists hear the Racism.
The idea that the Mythos can corrupt a human society is a source of horror (I would say, a powerful one). Inevitably, a depiction of this in writing or in RPGs is going to involve depicting a given community and its members in a pretty negative light. I mean, that's the whole point.
Lovecraft wrote about an instance of this corruption spreading from a Pacific Island society to New England. He is actually saying that in this sense there is nothing special about New England white anglo-saxon protestants. They can get corrupted too.
I guess Lovecraft might have said "Even New England WASPS". But emphasising Lovecraft's racism misses the point. Even our (or rather, his) notions of racial superiority are meaningless when confronted with the Mythos. A New England WASP is no better or safer than an Asian or an African or anyone else.
And this is obviously a "corruption" that can be easily categorized as bad, evil, and wrong. Because the point of cosmic horror is that anything non-human is automatically evil and should be exterminated. Humanity fuck yeah!
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 31, 2021, 08:35:44 AM
And this is obviously a "corruption" that can be easily categorized as bad, evil, and wrong. Because the point of cosmic horror is that anything non-human is automatically evil and should be exterminated. Humanity fuck yeah!
Although as is often pointed out, there are plenty of instances in Lovecraft of humans winning temporary local victories over the Mythos (torpedoing the Deep Ones, ramming Cthulhu with a boat etc.), as a general point it isn't even a war. It's more like we're an ants' nest on land earmarked for construction. We could be wiped out at any moment for reasons that are totally beyond our comprehension. Whatever Mythos entity was responsible might not even realise they'd done it, and if they did, they almost certainly wouldn't give a damn.
That's classic Lovecraft anyway. If somebody wants to play a game where humanity can somehow win against the Mythos, then whatever floats their (Cthulhu-ramming) boat.
Or the fish freaks were just full of shit when they said they were superior. You guys take everything in those stories at face value regardless of which characters are saying what. It's entirely possible that the narrators are unreliable.
There's this commentary on every story HPL ever wrote written by someone going under the alias Leila Hahn. There's a section for "The Shadow over Innsmouth": https://forums.sufficientvelocity.com/threads/lets-read-everything-howard-phillips-lovecraft-ever-wrote.19724/post-11844622
Hahn points out that the story sends mixed messages and notes that the information we hear comes from unreliable sources. Namely an old drunkard and a fish-man. Not exactly the most impartial sources, but that's what we got. Hahn still gets an analysis out of this.
Hahn also points out similarities in the way the fish freaks are described and certain racist propaganda, and notes the story itself uses the fake out that Innsmouth was mixing with non-white people before revealing that it was actually fish people. Of course, as we know the story itself can't possibly have any racist parallels whatsoever because it's fantasy and Hahn is a racist for making these connections. But even tho Hahn is a racist, I don't dismiss Hahn's work out of hand. HPL was also a racist, but we're still discussing his work.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 31, 2021, 10:28:28 AM
Or the fish freaks were just full of shit when they said they were superior. You guys take everything in those stories at face value regardless of which characters are saying what. It's entirely possible that the narrators are unreliable.
There's this commentary on every story HPL ever wrote written by someone going under the alias Leila Hahn. There's a section for "The Shadow over Innsmouth": https://forums.sufficientvelocity.com/threads/lets-read-everything-howard-phillips-lovecraft-ever-wrote.19724/post-11844622
Hahn points out that the story sends mixed messages and notes that the information we hear comes from unreliable sources. Namely an old drunkard and a fish-man. Not exactly the most impartial sources, but that's what we got. Hahn still gets an analysis out of this.
Hahn also points out similarities in the way the fish freaks are described and certain racist propaganda, and notes the story itself uses the fake out that Innsmouth was mixing with non-white people before revealing that it was actually fish people. Of course, as we know the story itself can't possibly have any racist parallels whatsoever because it's fantasy and Hahn is a racist for making these connections. But even tho Hahn is a racist, I don't dismiss Hahn's work out of hand. HPL was also a racist, but we're still discussing his work.
I already wrote in-depth about Leila Hahn, in a very long post that originated... uhm... from a post of yours:
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/no-we-weren-t-stupid-for-40-years/msg1176317/#msg1176317
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 31, 2021, 08:35:44 AM
Anyway, there's absolutely no possibility that real racists might use fantasy as a racist dogwhistle, or that people who don't consider themselves racist could accidentally internalize racist messages without realizing it, or that writers might use racial caricature in fantasy as a form of satire.
So what if racists implant dog-whistles in their fiction? The only people who will notice are other racists. Everyone else will just read the fiction. If you can hear the whistle, you're the dog.
Writers have always used caricature in satire since time immemorial (it's kind of required), and I don't see why any particular subject of caricature is off limits. Did Chaucer use class, age, or occupation as the basis for his satire? (Yes) Did he use race? (Yes. The Miller is Irish and the Merchant Jewish) Should we cancel Chaucer now? Caricature is based on stereotypes, and stereotypes that don't fit a person's experiences will be rejected by them, even as caricature.
And people can't "accidentally internalize" racist messages when that subject is a fictional race. They can't when it is a real race, either, but that's not the point here. You cannot create a "racist" via a fictional creation. Racism occurs when a person believes that one group of
people is superior to another group of
people just because of their race. That isn't "accidental." This argument is the kind of mental gymnastics that defines the modern leftist's irrationality. No matter what fictional situation concerning a fictional race a book or RPG sets up, it cannot make you racist towards a real human population.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on July 31, 2021, 05:43:26 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 31, 2021, 08:35:44 AM
Anyway, there's absolutely no possibility that real racists might use fantasy as a racist dogwhistle, or that people who don't consider themselves racist could accidentally internalize racist messages without realizing it, or that writers might use racial caricature in fantasy as a form of satire.
So what if racists implant dog-whistles in their fiction? The only people who will notice are other racists. Everyone else will just read the fiction. If you can hear the whistle, you're the dog.
Writers have always used caricature in satire since time immemorial (it's kind of required), and I don't see why any particular subject of caricature is off limits. Did Chaucer use class, age, or occupation as the basis for his satire? (Yes) Did he use race? (Yes. The Miller is Irish and the Merchant Jewish) Should we cancel Chaucer now? Caricature is based on stereotypes, and stereotypes that don't fit a person's experiences will be rejected by them, even as caricature.
And people can't "accidentally internalize" racist messages when that subject is a fictional race. They can't when it is a real race, either, but that's not the point here. You cannot create a "racist" via a fictional creation. Racism occurs when a person believes that one group of people is superior to another group of people just because of their race. That isn't "accidental." This argument is the kind of mental gymnastics that defines the modern leftist's irrationality. No matter what fictional situation concerning a fictional race a book or RPG sets up, it cannot make you racist towards a real human population.
Therefore, anybody who claims Rowling's goblins, Tolkien's dwarves, or Lucas' toydarians share any resemblance to racist stereotypes of Jews is a racist. Describing fictional species in exactly the same way that European colonizers described non-white people is not racist because it's fiction, and anybody who criticizes that kind of language is a racist.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 31, 2021, 05:58:53 PM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on July 31, 2021, 05:43:26 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 31, 2021, 08:35:44 AM
Anyway, there's absolutely no possibility that real racists might use fantasy as a racist dogwhistle, or that people who don't consider themselves racist could accidentally internalize racist messages without realizing it, or that writers might use racial caricature in fantasy as a form of satire.
So what if racists implant dog-whistles in their fiction? The only people who will notice are other racists. Everyone else will just read the fiction. If you can hear the whistle, you're the dog.
Writers have always used caricature in satire since time immemorial (it's kind of required), and I don't see why any particular subject of caricature is off limits. Did Chaucer use class, age, or occupation as the basis for his satire? (Yes) Did he use race? (Yes. The Miller is Irish and the Merchant Jewish) Should we cancel Chaucer now? Caricature is based on stereotypes, and stereotypes that don't fit a person's experiences will be rejected by them, even as caricature.
And people can't "accidentally internalize" racist messages when that subject is a fictional race. They can't when it is a real race, either, but that's not the point here. You cannot create a "racist" via a fictional creation. Racism occurs when a person believes that one group of people is superior to another group of people just because of their race. That isn't "accidental." This argument is the kind of mental gymnastics that defines the modern leftist's irrationality. No matter what fictional situation concerning a fictional race a book or RPG sets up, it cannot make you racist towards a real human population.
Therefore, anybody who claims Rowling's goblins, Tolkien's dwarves, or Lucas' toydarians share any resemblance to racist stereotypes of Jews is a racist. Describing fictional species in exactly the same way that European colonizers described non-white people is not racist because it's fiction, and anybody who criticizes that kind of language is a racist.
Where is your critic of racism when Jesus was fighting against the Jewish moneylenders corrupting his church?
Its because he was a European coloniser, right?
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 31, 2021, 05:58:53 PM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on July 31, 2021, 05:43:26 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 31, 2021, 08:35:44 AM
Anyway, there's absolutely no possibility that real racists might use fantasy as a racist dogwhistle, or that people who don't consider themselves racist could accidentally internalize racist messages without realizing it, or that writers might use racial caricature in fantasy as a form of satire.
So what if racists implant dog-whistles in their fiction? The only people who will notice are other racists. Everyone else will just read the fiction. If you can hear the whistle, you're the dog.
Writers have always used caricature in satire since time immemorial (it's kind of required), and I don't see why any particular subject of caricature is off limits. Did Chaucer use class, age, or occupation as the basis for his satire? (Yes) Did he use race? (Yes. The Miller is Irish and the Merchant Jewish) Should we cancel Chaucer now? Caricature is based on stereotypes, and stereotypes that don't fit a person's experiences will be rejected by them, even as caricature.
And people can't "accidentally internalize" racist messages when that subject is a fictional race. They can't when it is a real race, either, but that's not the point here. You cannot create a "racist" via a fictional creation. Racism occurs when a person believes that one group of people is superior to another group of people just because of their race. That isn't "accidental." This argument is the kind of mental gymnastics that defines the modern leftist's irrationality. No matter what fictional situation concerning a fictional race a book or RPG sets up, it cannot make you racist towards a real human population.
Therefore, anybody who claims Rowling's goblins, Tolkien's dwarves, or Lucas' toydarians share any resemblance to racist stereotypes of Jews is a racist. Describing fictional species in exactly the same way that European colonizers described non-white people is not racist because it's fiction, and anybody who criticizes that kind of language is a racist.
You get it now. Good job. Making fictional characters greedy and money-obsessed does not make them stand-ins for Jews. Only a racist would say that, because the racist assumes those qualities are exclusive to Jews. Normal people recognize that any individual can have those characteristics, regardless of race.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 31, 2021, 05:58:53 PM
Therefore, anybody who claims Rowling's goblins, Tolkien's dwarves, or Lucas' toydarians share any resemblance to racist stereotypes of Jews is a racist. Describing fictional species in exactly the same way that European colonizers described non-white people is not racist because it's fiction, and anybody who criticizes that kind of language is a racist.
Yes.
Because with words; intent and context matter.
Racists use the ideas of evolutionary science to promote their racist ideals.
So that must mean that from now on anyone discussing human evolution using the same scientific terms that a racist happened to also have used is a racist?
Racists use art in their racist propaganda.
So that must mean that from now on that anyone drawing in the same artistic style that racists have used is a racist?
Fuck off!
Another example:
From Oxford Languages:
Orc /ôrk/
Late 16th century (denoting an ogre): perhaps from Latin orcus 'hell' or Italian orco '
demon, monster', influenced by obsolete orc 'ferocious sea creature' and by Old English orcneas 'monsters'. The current sense is due to the use of the word in Tolkien's fantasy adventures.
The evil /bad /other depictions of various monsters and creatures in myth and folk lore is representative of corruption, faithlessness, giving in to temptation, and the fear of allowing yourself to be wholly corrupted by wickedness and sin.
Orc = bad/evil thing we must fight, that is representative of defeating the bad/evil within ourselves.
Yes, Racists have used language traditionally used to describe bad things, and applied it to people in their worldview that they think are bad.
Racists gonna' racist...
If you think that orcs = black people; that means you are straight-up agreeing with the racists worldview of black people.
So next time you read a depiction of an Orc, goblin, troll, or dwarf, and you think it has Racist overtones... If you want to find the nearest racist that thinks the same way you do about what you just read; I recommend a look in the mirror.
Pundit explained all this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K30zFJOV3eM
Quote from: yancy on July 30, 2021, 04:00:53 AMThat's one of the worst paragraphs he ever wrote :(
I re-visited most of his stories about 5 years ago, and I was pleasantly surprised at how well almost all of them have held up, but that shit about the Elder Things being a bunch of brave pioneers with tentacles had me begging for the Shoggoth to show up and clean house.
Think what the character was expressing was respect for fellow explorers and scientists. You might not like em, they might be rivals or foes even. But sometimes you can step back and appreciate what they have accomplished.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on July 31, 2021, 11:06:20 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 31, 2021, 05:58:53 PM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on July 31, 2021, 05:43:26 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 31, 2021, 08:35:44 AM
Anyway, there's absolutely no possibility that real racists might use fantasy as a racist dogwhistle, or that people who don't consider themselves racist could accidentally internalize racist messages without realizing it, or that writers might use racial caricature in fantasy as a form of satire.
So what if racists implant dog-whistles in their fiction? The only people who will notice are other racists. Everyone else will just read the fiction. If you can hear the whistle, you're the dog.
Writers have always used caricature in satire since time immemorial (it's kind of required), and I don't see why any particular subject of caricature is off limits. Did Chaucer use class, age, or occupation as the basis for his satire? (Yes) Did he use race? (Yes. The Miller is Irish and the Merchant Jewish) Should we cancel Chaucer now? Caricature is based on stereotypes, and stereotypes that don't fit a person's experiences will be rejected by them, even as caricature.
And people can't "accidentally internalize" racist messages when that subject is a fictional race. They can't when it is a real race, either, but that's not the point here. You cannot create a "racist" via a fictional creation. Racism occurs when a person believes that one group of people is superior to another group of people just because of their race. That isn't "accidental." This argument is the kind of mental gymnastics that defines the modern leftist's irrationality. No matter what fictional situation concerning a fictional race a book or RPG sets up, it cannot make you racist towards a real human population.
Therefore, anybody who claims Rowling's goblins, Tolkien's dwarves, or Lucas' toydarians share any resemblance to racist stereotypes of Jews is a racist. Describing fictional species in exactly the same way that European colonizers described non-white people is not racist because it's fiction, and anybody who criticizes that kind of language is a racist.
You get it now. Good job. Making fictional characters greedy and money-obsessed does not make them stand-ins for Jews. Only a racist would say that, because the racist assumes those qualities are exclusive to Jews. Normal people recognize that any individual can have those characteristics, regardless of race.
I cannot agree more. And if you give them big noses, a secret language, their own isolated subculture, a penchant for kidnapping and eating children from outside their culture, evil schemes to corrupt the surrounding societies that including tricking the dominant ethnic group into marrying their disguised members... well, those are all hallmarks of antisemitic caricature/propaganda but as soon as you apply those traits to a fictional species then it ceases to be caricature because it's fiction. If any snowflake complains that you're writing thinly veiled antisemitic caricature and it ruins their escapism, well fuck them because they're racists. And snowflakes.
Quote from: Jaeger on August 01, 2021, 05:20:32 AM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 31, 2021, 05:58:53 PM
Therefore, anybody who claims Rowling's goblins, Tolkien's dwarves, or Lucas' toydarians share any resemblance to racist stereotypes of Jews is a racist. Describing fictional species in exactly the same way that European colonizers described non-white people is not racist because it's fiction, and anybody who criticizes that kind of language is a racist.
Yes.
Because with words; intent and context matter.
Racists use the ideas of evolutionary science to promote their racist ideals.
So that must mean that from now on anyone discussing human evolution using the same scientific terms that a racist happened to also have used is a racist?
Racists use art in their racist propaganda.
So that must mean that from now on that anyone drawing in the same artistic style that racists have used is a racist?
Fuck off!
Another example:
From Oxford Languages:
Orc /ôrk/
Late 16th century (denoting an ogre): perhaps from Latin orcus 'hell' or Italian orco 'demon, monster', influenced by obsolete orc 'ferocious sea creature' and by Old English orcneas 'monsters'. The current sense is due to the use of the word in Tolkien's fantasy adventures.
The evil /bad /other depictions of various monsters and creatures in myth and folk lore is representative of corruption, faithlessness, giving in to temptation, and the fear of allowing yourself to be wholly corrupted by wickedness and sin.
Orc = bad/evil thing we must fight, that is representative of defeating the bad/evil within ourselves.
Yes, Racists have used language traditionally used to describe bad things, and applied it to people in their worldview that they think are bad.
Racists gonna' racist...
If you think that orcs = black people; that means you are straight-up agreeing with the racists worldview of black people.
So next time you read a depiction of an Orc, goblin, troll, or dwarf, and you think it has Racist overtones... If you want to find the nearest racist that thinks the same way you do about what you just read; I recommend a look in the mirror.
Pundit explained all this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K30zFJOV3eM
Yep. If you copy racist propaganda verbatim but apply it to a fictional species, then it's no longer racist because you can't be racist against fiction. Oh, some thin-skinned snowflakes are complaining that it ruins their escapism? Well, fuck them they're the real racists.
After all, only an extremely delusional racist would write an article complaining that H.R. Giger's penis-headed nightmares (and the Predator) are anti-black racist caricature. https://theconversation.com/amp/how-hollywoods-alien-and-predator-movies-reinforce-anti-black-racism-127088
And since that comparison is so obviously insane (particularly if you read the Predator expanded universe where they have a complex civilization that descended from gladiator slaves who rightfully overthrew their wicked masters, which sounds like something an SJW would write), it discredits absolutely everything else these snowflakes say.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 01, 2021, 11:34:41 AM
And if you give them big noses, a secret language, their own isolated subculture, a penchant for kidnapping and eating children from outside their culture, evil schemes to corrupt the surrounding societies that including tricking the dominant ethnic group into marrying their disguised members...
A example of your description from fiction would be what? Seems you are setting up a dramatic situation that doesn't exist.
BTW, when does fiction deal in "races"? It deals in characters. The flying whatever from the first Star Wars prequel (that was accused of being anti-semitic) was not a "race." It was an individual character. Or do you believe that every individual character in a movie is the embodiment of their entire race.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 01, 2021, 11:34:41 AM
I cannot agree more. And if you give them big noses, a secret language, their own isolated subculture, a penchant for kidnapping and eating children from outside their culture, evil schemes to corrupt the surrounding societies that including tricking the dominant ethnic group into marrying their disguised members... well, those are all hallmarks of antisemitic caricature/propaganda but as soon as you apply those traits to a fictional species then it ceases to be caricature because it's fiction. If any snowflake complains that you're writing thinly veiled antisemitic caricature and it ruins their escapism, well fuck them because they're racists. And snowflakes.
Yikes. I did not realize that Changlings were also stand ins for Jews.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 01, 2021, 11:34:41 AM
After all, only an extremely delusional racist would write an article complaining that H.R. Giger's penis-headed nightmares (and the Predator) are anti-black racist caricature. https://theconversation.com/amp/how-hollywoods-alien-and-predator-movies-reinforce-anti-black-racism-127088
"We are dealing with a culture of domination. It is a culture that thrives on the sexualized demonization of Black people. Two examples of this are Ridley Scott's Alien, which comports with the trope of Black women as alien breeders [that John Hurt was a black woman is the most stunning revelation in recent times] and Predator, written by brothers Jim and John Thomas, that riffs on images of Black men as dreadlocked, violent and superhuman."I wonder if we shouldn't start with not even considering pieces written by people who clearly lost their grip with reality. ::)
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 01, 2021, 11:34:41 AMAnyway, there's absolutely no possibility that real racists might use fantasy as a racist dogwhistle, or that people who don't consider themselves racist could accidentally internalize racist messages without realizing it, or that writers might use racial caricature in fantasy as a form of satire.
I know this is a deep seated belief for you, but this sort of logic is untenable.
This means that if any sort of fiction (by intention or accident) has a connection to any sort of steryotype or negative image, then you have effectively demanded for its banning in the fictional space AT ALL.
Because what people see as a negative association and what deserves to be labelled as 'propaganda' is subjective. Your shackling (ey, I get to use that word too) what people can or can't create to constantly shifting and subjective interpretations. That is untenable and grants the loudest complainer (with no distinction between a power grab and the genuinly hurt) the most power.
Hurt feelings are a TERRIBLE metric to measure the permissability of creativity towards because there is no limit to buthurt.
For instance: why is it only RACIST propaganda that gets this sort of outrage. What if Im butthurt by the portayal of my profession or hobby? What makes racist propaganda special? Non-racist propaganda has murdered plenty of people as well. What is the logic that means a racialist caricature has to be banned by buthurt, but other kinds are OK? If the answer is that they should ALL be banned (or culturally pressured to not be allowed to exist) then your just gonna get everything banned. This is what fahrenheit 451 was all about.
The power of a fictional portrayal, is that it allows for association unintended by the author. Even as a racist (not particularly fond of my people) I found Lovecrafts stories resonating with me for feelings of isolation on my end.
Why is racism this ultimate sin?
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 01, 2021, 11:34:41 AM
Yep. If you copy racist propaganda verbatim but apply it to a fictional species, then it's no longer racist because you can't be racist against fiction. Oh, some thin-skinned snowflakes are complaining that it ruins their escapism? Well, fuck them they're the real racists.
Who said anything about copying anything verbatim?
You are having to come up with an increasing number of : "if", "but", dramatic strawman scenarios to prop up your critical theory based nonsense argument.
According to your critical theory nonsense:
If I describe a monsters in an RPG; they cannot have dark skin tones, and act in an evil and brutal manner.
Because
the only possible explanation for me portraying my monsters that way is because what I must be
really saying is: 'my monster' =
Black people.
Shocking!
Applying Critical Theory I can make
any fictional depiction of a fantasy race look like an oppressed representation of a real world culture!
Behold the truth of the Forgotten Realms Drow:
Quote from: Ed Greenwood is a flaming white supremacist: on August 01, 2021, 11:34:41 AM
It is a well known Fact that The Drow are ruled by a benevolent Matriarchy.
Therefore by law, there is no such thing as Drow on Drow crime in Menzoberranzan.
While at times one may see an enlightened Priestess of Lolth discipline a cis-gendered male Drow; This is done to ensure that Drow society does not fall into a state of patriarchy and lawlessness. And is typical of the way that the progressive Drow Matriarchy ensures equality for all.
Outside cultures are constantly committing racist microagressions against Drow society because of their lack of cultural understanding; especially when they describe the method in which the various Great Drow Houses vie for the attention and favor of Lolth as war. In Drow society it is simply understood that Drow houses will from time to time engage in energetic play with each other for the favor of Lolth and greater social equity.
But the most problematic issue facing Drow society today is the very real threat that the Rangers and Right-Wing militias of the Surface world present to Drow lives.
When the Drow engage in Mostly Peaceful trading expeditions to the surface world, they are routinely shot dead For No Reason At All by the arrows of light-skinned Elven and Human Rangers.
The Rangers have proven to be such a threat that many Drow traders feel that they are barely able to breathe in the fresh surface world air before they are set upon by a Ranger trying to kill them just for trading in the wrong defenseless rich suburban village at the wrong time.
The surface world needs to recognize that Drow Lives Matter. They need to accept that in making a safe space for the Drow to live among them that the strength and vibrancy of Drow society will be added to their own.
Praise Lolth! All Glory to the Queen of Spiders!
Damn...
You know what Boxcrayon... I take every thing I said back: Drow are
obviously a racist depiction of Black people!
You are 100% right!
Every depiction of Goblins, Dwarves, Elves, Orcs, Gnomes... hell,
every depiction of fantasy creatures
ever is obviously RACIST!!!
Oh NOES!!!
ROTFL...
Behold the magic of Critical Theory: anyone can make
anything Racist.
Critical Race theory arguments like yours literally make their own
reductio ad absurdum arguments against themselves.
Only thin-skinned snowflakes take critical theory based arguments seriously.
Someone needed to inform BoxCrayonTales that inserting the whole 48 Box of crayons in his ear was a bad idea. Either that or he sniffed way too much contact glue.
According to this racist EVERY depiction of a fictional race/species in all of fiction is a racist depiction of real world people because reasons.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 01, 2021, 10:13:54 PMAccording to this racist EVERY depiction of a fictional race/species in all of fiction is a racist depiction of real world people because reasons.
Being fair to him: He goes at this from an angle of sensitivity to others. I don't see him as a guy arguing in bad faith about his beliefs.
However; I see this as a largely arbitrary worldview whos logical consequences are utterly untenable to maintain in a reasonable society. At times the solution is to ask folks to grow thicker skins, not demand the world to change.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on August 01, 2021, 10:44:18 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 01, 2021, 10:13:54 PMAccording to this racist EVERY depiction of a fictional race/species in all of fiction is a racist depiction of real world people because reasons.
Being fair to him: He goes at this from an angle of sensitivity to others. I don't see him as a guy arguing in bad faith about his beliefs.
However; I see this as a largely arbitrary worldview whos logical consequences are utterly untenable to maintain in a reasonable society. At times the solution is to ask folks to grow thicker skins, not demand the world to change.
Honestly? Fuck the sensitivity of those "others". Who elected him to be the spokeperson? No one, he speaks his own hangups and it's nothing but confession by projection.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on August 01, 2021, 10:44:18 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 01, 2021, 10:13:54 PMAccording to this racist EVERY depiction of a fictional race/species in all of fiction is a racist depiction of real world people because reasons.
Being fair to him: He goes at this from an angle of sensitivity to others. I don't see him as a guy arguing in bad faith about his beliefs.
However; I see this as a largely arbitrary worldview whos logical consequences are utterly untenable to maintain in a reasonable society. At times the solution is to ask folks to grow thicker skins, not demand the world to change.
He is the guy that wants to kill everyone.
But its not racist when you hate the whole of humanity.
Oh wait....
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 01, 2021, 10:47:18 PM
Honestly? Fuck the sensitivity of those "others".
Agreed, but my principles are also about defending people I disagree with if I think they are not acting out of ill will.
In the modern day, I find him more a 'victim' of 'victim' politics, this sort of thing is drilled into kids heads by the millions. I am not assuming hangups or projection from him.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on August 01, 2021, 11:13:32 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 01, 2021, 10:47:18 PM
Honestly? Fuck the sensitivity of those "others".
Agreed, but my principles are also about defending people I disagree with if I think they are not acting out of ill will.
In the modern day, I find him more a 'victim' of 'victim' politics, this sort of thing is drilled into kids heads by the millions. I am not assuming hangups or projection from him.
Whether a doctor injects me with arsenic because he wants to kill me, it's an accident, or he truly believes it will help me, I'll still be dead. When your hangups poison the body politic...
Quote from: Reckall on August 01, 2021, 04:29:47 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 01, 2021, 11:34:41 AM
After all, only an extremely delusional racist would write an article complaining that H.R. Giger's penis-headed nightmares (and the Predator) are anti-black racist caricature. https://theconversation.com/amp/how-hollywoods-alien-and-predator-movies-reinforce-anti-black-racism-127088
"We are dealing with a culture of domination. It is a culture that thrives on the sexualized demonization of Black people. Two examples of this are Ridley Scott's Alien, which comports with the trope of Black women as alien breeders [that John Hurt was a black woman is the most stunning revelation in recent times] and Predator, written by brothers Jim and John Thomas, that riffs on images of Black men as dreadlocked, violent and superhuman."
I wonder if we shouldn't start with not even considering pieces written by people who clearly lost their grip with reality. ::)
I wonder if this stems from how the actors for both the xenomorph and the Predator were both black (Bolaji Badejo and Kevin Peter Hall, respectively). Of course, they didn't get those roles because they were black; Badejo was from Nigeria and had a long, lanky build which let him fit into the suit, while Hall was over seven feet tall, making him perfect for the imposing Predator.
But yeah, some people are not even commuting to reality with their fascination for race.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on August 02, 2021, 08:11:12 AM
Quote from: Reckall on August 01, 2021, 04:29:47 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 01, 2021, 11:34:41 AM
After all, only an extremely delusional racist would write an article complaining that H.R. Giger's penis-headed nightmares (and the Predator) are anti-black racist caricature. https://theconversation.com/amp/how-hollywoods-alien-and-predator-movies-reinforce-anti-black-racism-127088
"We are dealing with a culture of domination. It is a culture that thrives on the sexualized demonization of Black people. Two examples of this are Ridley Scott's Alien, which comports with the trope of Black women as alien breeders [that John Hurt was a black woman is the most stunning revelation in recent times] and Predator, written by brothers Jim and John Thomas, that riffs on images of Black men as dreadlocked, violent and superhuman."
I wonder if we shouldn't start with not even considering pieces written by people who clearly lost their grip with reality. ::)
I wonder if this stems from how the actors for both the xenomorph and the Predator were both black (Bolaji Badejo and Kevin Peter Hall, respectively). Of course, they didn't get those roles because they were black; Badejo was from Nigeria and had a long, lanky build which let him fit into the suit, while Hall was over seven feet tall, making him perfect for the imposing Predator.
I never thought about that, but the statement is still wrong: the Alien as portrayed by Bolaji Badejo is not a "breeder" (nor Badejo was female). In "Alien" you can give that title either to the facehugger or to the poor host (i.e. John Hurt).
I guess that the writer was confused and mistook "Alien" for "Aliens", where you have an egg-laying black Alien Queen (inspired, IIRC, by how ants reproduce). But I also guess that the writer is confused in a general sense.
Quote from: Reckall on August 02, 2021, 01:07:10 PM
But I also guess that the writer is confused in a general sense.
Is this one of those times when people are using "confused" to mean "barking moon-bat nuts"? Or just "retarded"?
Predator was originally going to be played by Jean Claude Van Damme.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on August 02, 2021, 03:26:31 PM
Quote from: Reckall on August 02, 2021, 01:07:10 PM
But I also guess that the writer is confused in a general sense.
Is this one of those times when people are using "confused" to mean "barking moon-bat nuts"? Or just "retarded"?
True 1:1 quote from this piece:
(https://images.theconversation.com/files/346464/original/file-20200708-31-1mbja4a.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=15&auto=format&w=320&h=213&fit=crop&dpr=3)
Image Caption:
"Black women are seen as alien breeders in Ridley Scott's 'Alien' franchise."
Quote from: Omega on August 02, 2021, 03:35:45 PM
Predator was originally going to be played by Jean Claude Van Damme.
Condemning "The Color out of Space" would make more sense. The evil entity there is, by definition, "colored".
QuoteSo what if racists implant dog-whistles in their fiction? The only people who will notice are other racists. Everyone else will just read the fiction. If you can hear the whistle, you're the dog.
That's utterly ridiculous notion. Anyone can hear god-damn whistle, as as all humans works basically on simmilar levels of perception, obviously you can notice foreign, enemy's indirect propaganda if you know their beliefs. So you don't have to be racist to hear racist dogwhistle - you just need to know how racist sounds. Same with any other idea - good or bad. If you know it - you can recognize it - doesn't matter whether you follow it or not.
The real question is: are given examples that/
QuoteTherefore, anybody who claims Rowling's goblins, Tolkien's dwarves, or Lucas' toydarians share any resemblance to racist stereotypes of Jews is a racist. Describing fictional species in exactly the same way that European colonizers described non-white people is not racist because it's fiction, and anybody who criticizes that kind of language is a racist.
Tolkien dwarves are of course inspired/themed after Hebrew and more widely Semitic people. In other two cases I'm not that convinced. Till last book goblins play no real role in HP world, and even then minor, their looks is well very much how various goblin like creatures were shown through ages and so on. And this boney long nosed form is way more universal than mere stereotypical Jew as it's meant to be sort of mimicing raptor birds of various kind. Uncle Sam in USSR propaganda is excellent example - he is not in any way coded as Jew yet still - long, hooked nose, emanciated features.
Also we should note that... greedy merchant is stereotype on itself. So there apparently there always gonna be problem with it - show greedy merchants with big noses - OH THEY'RE JEWS, show greedy merchants with no-noses - oh they are Chinese, ah poor George, he should just leave banking of Galaxy in hands of Hutts. After all there are no more Phoenicians to whine about this.
QuoteOrc = bad/evil thing we must fight, that is representative of defeating the bad/evil within ourselves.
TBH that's very shitty metaphore. It would work well with some really corrupting demons, but slaying random mooks as representation of defeating evil within yourself. That's just bollocks.
QuoteI cannot agree more. And if you give them big noses, a secret language, their own isolated subculture, a penchant for kidnapping and eating children from outside their culture, evil schemes to corrupt the surrounding societies that including tricking the dominant ethnic group into marrying their disguised members... well, those are all hallmarks of antisemitic caricature/propaganda but as soon as you apply those traits to a fictional species then it ceases to be caricature because it's fiction. If any snowflake complains that you're writing thinly veiled antisemitic caricature and it ruins their escapism, well fuck them because they're racists. And snowflakes.
Ok but really no beings we talk about did this bullshit.
And even then yes - u can use straight up racist vision of some people from vision of racists, and use them for fantasy beings.
As one leftists Jew said on very leftist RPG groups on Facebook: All this antisemitic conspiracies could work really fine for RPG, though I'd probably cringe to much as Jew to use them.
Quoteand Predator, written by brothers Jim and John Thomas, that riffs on images of Black men as dreadlocked, violent and superhuman."
I must say Predator had always for some reason Asian feel for me. Like monster-samurai or smth.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on August 02, 2021, 03:26:31 PM
Quote from: Reckall on August 02, 2021, 01:07:10 PM
But I also guess that the writer is confused in a general sense.
Is this one of those times when people are using "confused" to mean "barking moon-bat nuts"? Or just "retarded"?
:Old Tricorder sound
/Old Tricorder sound
:Attempt at a Lt. Chekov voice
Keptin, Dee rhetorical spectrometer eez peeking pp faint traces uv euphemisium dust in dee air.
/Attempt at a Lt. Chekov voice
Quote from: Wrath of God on August 02, 2021, 04:33:01 PM
QuoteTherefore, anybody who claims Rowling's goblins, Tolkien's dwarves, or Lucas' toydarians share any resemblance to racist stereotypes of Jews is a racist. Describing fictional species in exactly the same way that European colonizers described non-white people is not racist because it's fiction, and anybody who criticizes that kind of language is a racist.
Tolkien dwarves are of course inspired/themed after Hebrew and more widely Semitic people. In other two cases I'm not that convinced. Till last book goblins play no real role in HP world, and even then minor, their looks is well very much how various goblin like creatures were shown through ages and so on. And this boney long nosed form is way more universal than mere stereotypical Jew as it's meant to be sort of mimicing raptor birds of various kind. Uncle Sam in USSR propaganda is excellent example - he is not in any way coded as Jew yet still - long, hooked nose, emanciated features.
Also we should note that... greedy merchant is stereotype on itself. So there apparently there always gonna be problem with it - show greedy merchants with big noses - OH THEY'RE JEWS, show greedy merchants with no-noses - oh they are Chinese, ah poor George, he should just leave banking of Galaxy in hands of Hutts. After all there are no more Phoenicians to whine about this.
Please, Tolkiens Dwarves are inspired/themed around Scottish people: They love to fight, they love gold, they love riding on battle pigs and they speak with scottish accents.
Would a jewish dwarf ride on a battle pig? Thats just not kosher.
QuotePlease, Tolkiens Dwarves are inspired/themed around Scottish people: They love to fight, they love gold, they love riding on battle pigs and they speak with scottish accents.
Would a jewish dwarf ride on a battle pig? Thats just not kosher.
Those are all Peter Jackson's heresies and lies :P
Quote from: Wrath of God on August 02, 2021, 06:41:00 PM
QuotePlease, Tolkiens Dwarves are inspired/themed around Scottish people: They love to fight, they love gold, they love riding on battle pigs and they speak with scottish accents.
Would a jewish dwarf ride on a battle pig? Thats just not kosher.
Those are all Peter Jackson's heresies and lies :P
Now thats racist!
No filthy Kiwis in my Mercian fantasy :P
I don't believe critical theory.
That said, I've been seeing compelling arguments from both sides. I genuinely don't know what is the right and proper answer.
My gut instinct is that stuff like Volo's Guide's description of orcs using similar language to 19th century colonizers is... well, it's creepy colonialist language. It was originally devised by people who didn't think that certain other people deserved equal rights, or saw them as subhuman because of their skin color. Aka "othering."
In fantasy, you're potentially creating a world in which othering is in fact a true appraisal of reality rather than racist nonsense. There's nothing wrong with creating such a world, but my gut instinct is that it's still really creepy and gross.
I have this same feeling for pre-D&D fiction that depicts colonialist attitudes, such as a lot of pulp fiction. It comes across as creepy.
I'm not saying you can't have monsters. But there's a nuanced difference between "monster" and "other." The other has human qualities, but is arbitrarily denied personhood. The monster lacks human qualities.
On a related note, Here's an article citing multiple points of similarity between the design of the Martian cockroaches in Terra Formars and caricatures of African Americans, as well as other questionable references in the text: https://thekenpire.com/2015/03/17/terra-formars-is-an-obscenely-racist-manga-and-anime-series-but-its-sort-of-hilarious/ This is the kind of extreme example I talked about before. It's so extreme that I can't be sure the comic book isn't satire. Do you think this article makes a compelling argument about the comic, or do you disagree with it? Why or why not?
If these distinctions are lost on you as critical theory gobbledegook... whatever. I'm not invested enough to keep arguing. My prior posts were satirical anyway.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 02, 2021, 09:38:40 PM
My gut instinct is that stuff like Volo's Guide's description of orcs using similar language to 19th century colonizers is... well, it's creepy colonialist language. It was originally devised by people who didn't think that certain other people deserved equal rights, or saw them as subhuman because of their skin color. Aka "othering."
In fantasy, you're potentially creating a world in which othering is in fact a true appraisal of reality rather than racist nonsense. There's nothing wrong with creating such a world, but my gut instinct is that it's still really creepy and gross.
Then historical roleplaying is out, and anything based on historical roleplaying is out, meaning you're left with fictional creations that lack any real grounding. They'll tend to be superficial reflections of the modern world. So your choice is between creepy and vapid.
"My gut instinct is "
PPBBBBLLLBBBBBTTHHHTHTT.
"If these distinctions are lost on you as critical theory gobbledegook... whatever."
PPBBBBLLLBBBBBTTHHHTHTT.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 02, 2021, 09:38:40 PMI genuinely don't know what is the right and proper answer.
But you will almost always support one side and deny the other. This I find is where this falls into intelectual dishonesty or incompleteness.
As I said, 'Gut' is a awful measuring metric for what is 'OK' or not.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 02, 2021, 09:38:40 PM
I'm not saying you can't have monsters. But there's a nuanced difference between "monster" and "other." The other has human qualities, but is arbitrarily denied personhood. The monster lacks human qualities.
This presumes a definition not in evidence. Monsters do not have to lack human qualities. Far from it. Monsters may violate human mores (see Grendel, who is an enemy not because he kills, but because he doesn't pay the weregild demanded of a murderer), but they are not totally non-human. In fact, creatures that are completely alien to human motivation are more animal than monster. The closeness to human, yet with a small but significant difference, is what make most classical "monsters" monsters. So your definition of monster is unsupported at best...
Greetings!
I love "Othering" in my campaigns. "Othering" as I recall is just another quasi-Marxist concept developed by Edward Said. Some jackass that Liberals have loved forever. Fuck them.
Pulp stories use language that is offensive! Volo's Guide uses language that is reminiscent of colonialist descriptions!
Oh my God! SO WHAT? Use whatever language and words you want. Stop being led around by the nose by race-grifters and demagogues and fucking brainwashed.
Let them all sob and cry.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Wrath of God on August 02, 2021, 04:33:01 PM
Also we should note that... greedy merchant is stereotype on itself. So there apparently there always gonna be problem with it - show greedy merchants with big noses - OH THEY'RE JEWS, show greedy merchants with no-noses - oh they are Chinese, ah poor George, he should just leave banking of Galaxy in hands of Hutts. After all there are no more Phoenicians to whine about this.
The "money-grubbing X" racist statement is a thing I've seen applied to Jews, Arabs, Chinese, and White people. Personally, I think it's a classist sentiment that gets mixed with a racist statement, to better "double-up" on why it's okay for a racist person to hate on The Other.
As for George Lucas... he was a genius. Watto is clearly a racist stereotype, but which race? Jewish? Turkish? Greek? Personally, I'm betting on "indeterminate Mediterranean". And the trade federation? If you listen to them you can hear they're East Asian influenced (and you can see they have long robes and squinty eyes). But which East Asian culture? Chinese? Korean? Again, I'm betting on "indeterminate East Asian" and leaving it at that. Jar Jar is clearly Caribbean black. Or maybe clearly East Indian as some have said? Or clearly making fun of blacks in urban America? So let's just go with "indeterminate black" and leave it at that.
But why all of these indeterminate ethnicities? Because Lucas was referencing the pulp serials he grew up with. Cultural Diversity as seen through the filter of 1940's adventure cinema. You can't say he's making fun of a specific ethnicity because nobody can agree on which ethnicity he's referencing, but he's clearly referencing... something damn it! Pretty clever.
Of course, that was before nerddom was willing to embrace the kind of thought that allows for "I can see orcs as equivalent to black people, so you're the racist" arguments.
Quote
I must say Predator had always for some reason Asian feel for me. Like monster-samurai or smth.
I think I'm the only person who thought "I wonder if the Predator is even male or some alien gender". Trying to think of it in terms of human ethnicity never occurred to me once I was dwelling on its possibly foreign reproductive processes. (I -think- they've since shown Predators with boobs, implying at least lactation and nursing (or a weird psychological hangup with mammaries), but that could still be something the "male" does, because "alien organism".)
Quote from: Habitual Gamer on August 03, 2021, 08:48:21 AM
Quote from: Wrath of God on August 02, 2021, 04:33:01 PM
Also we should note that... greedy merchant is stereotype on itself. So there apparently there always gonna be problem with it - show greedy merchants with big noses - OH THEY'RE JEWS, show greedy merchants with no-noses - oh they are Chinese, ah poor George, he should just leave banking of Galaxy in hands of Hutts. After all there are no more Phoenicians to whine about this.
The "money-grubbing X" racist statement is a thing I've seen applied to Jews, Arabs, Chinese, and White people. Personally, I think it's a classist sentiment that gets mixed with a racist statement, to better "double-up" on why it's okay for a racist person to hate on The Other.
As for George Lucas... he was a genius. Watto is clearly a racist stereotype, but which race? Jewish? Turkish? Greek? Personally, I'm betting on "indeterminate Mediterranean". And the trade federation? If you listen to them you can hear they're East Asian influenced (and you can see they have long robes and squinty eyes). But which East Asian culture? Chinese? Korean? Again, I'm betting on "indeterminate East Asian" and leaving it at that. Jar Jar is clearly Caribbean black. Or maybe clearly East Indian as some have said? Or clearly making fun of blacks in urban America? So let's just go with "indeterminate black" and leave it at that.
But why all of these indeterminate ethnicities? Because Lucas was referencing the pulp serials he grew up with. Cultural Diversity as seen through the filter of 1940's adventure cinema. You can't say he's making fun of a specific ethnicity because nobody can agree on which ethnicity he's referencing, but he's clearly referencing... something damn it! Pretty clever.
Of course, that was before nerddom was willing to embrace the kind of thought that allows for "I can see orcs as equivalent to black people, so you're the racist" arguments.
Quote
I must say Predator had always for some reason Asian feel for me. Like monster-samurai or smth.
I think I'm the only person who thought "I wonder if the Predator is even male or some alien gender". Trying to think of it in terms of human ethnicity never occurred to me once I was dwelling on its possibly foreign reproductive processes. (I -think- they've since shown Predators with boobs, implying at least lactation and nursing (or a weird psychological hangup with mammaries), but that could still be something the "male" does, because "alien organism".)
Predator always seemed like an inteligent sorta spider (or scorpion?) to me, don't know why such a species would need mamaries but hey!
Alien boobies!
Quote from: Habitual Gamer on August 03, 2021, 08:48:21 AM
I think I'm the only person who thought "I wonder if the Predator is even male or some alien gender". Trying to think of it in terms of human ethnicity never occurred to me once I was dwelling on its possibly foreign reproductive processes. (I -think- they've since shown Predators with boobs, implying at least lactation and nursing (or a weird psychological hangup with mammaries), but that could still be something the "male" does, because "alien organism".)
Just in the expanded universe created collaboratively by companies licensed to produce comics, novels, games, and merchandise. The movies never mentioned any sexual dimorphism. The predators seen in the movies may very well have included females.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on August 02, 2021, 10:01:30 PM
But you will almost always support one side and deny the other. This I find is where this falls into intelectual dishonesty or incompleteness.
As I said, 'Gut' is a awful measuring metric for what is 'OK' or not.
I know I pinball a lot. It's not fun.
Quote from: Pat on August 02, 2021, 09:42:41 PM
Then historical roleplaying is out, and anything based on historical roleplaying is out, meaning you're left with fictional creations that lack any real grounding. They'll tend to be superficial reflections of the modern world. So your choice is between creepy and vapid.
Is it? I mean, nowadays we know colonialist sentiment is... well, I personally don't support colonialism. But that doesn't you can't roleplay someone with different morals than you. Even if you think the historical colonization of the Americas was horrific, that doesn't prevent you from playing a colonists going around happily massacring the natives.
I can't stop people from playing Manifest Destiny, and I don't want to. That would be unethical. The moral quandary for me is that the acts of colonialism depicted in fiction are unethical, but denying people the freedom to create and play is also unethical.
People should have free speech and therefore the freedom to depict fictional events that are unethical.For me, othering is simply not within my comfort zone. I can depict a complex alien society that engages in horrific atrocities, but I can't go the step of othering them. I can write characters who other them, but I can't as an author with authorial authority do so.
So I can't write a story where orcs are subhuman and therefore it's morally justified to enslave and/or exterminate them. I can write orcs as being born from holes in the ground as adults holding weapons and driven to destroy civilization, as conquistadors from another world who treat humans the same way colonists treated natives, as a lot of things... but I refuse to enshrine colonialist rhetoric into my setting's law of physics.
I could totally write stories where the protagonists are colonists who go around murdering and raping the natives, but as the author I'm still going to consider their actions horrifically evil.
Quote from: SHARK on August 03, 2021, 02:17:42 AM
I love "Othering" in my campaigns. "Othering" as I recall is just another quasi-Marxist concept developed by Edward Said. Some jackass that Liberals have loved forever. Fuck them.
Hmmm. If my memory serves, it's actually Jacques Derrida that popularized "othering." But I'll have to check...
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 04, 2021, 04:14:59 PM
I know I pinball a lot. It's not fun.
Not being certain of something is alright, but you have to consider (and acknowledge) the ramifications of your perspectives in a longterm sense.
In metaphorical terms: you may not be advocating for driving off the edge of a cliff, but you advocate for driving towards it, and then say that slowing down or using the break is a bad idea. Maybe this car is evil and NEEDS to be driven off the edge of a cliff, but you gotta be honest with yourself and others.
You are effectively saying that there cannot be any theoretical ideas. We can't (or shouldn't) ever publish a story where a true evil species exist because even that idea existing is dangerous. You have another principle that advocates against control (which I respect), but I find your fear of theory to be misplaced.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 02, 2021, 09:38:40 PM
My gut instinct is that stuff like Volo's Guide's description of orcs using similar language to 19th century colonizers is... well, it's creepy colonialist language. It was originally devised by people who didn't think that certain other people deserved equal rights, or saw them as subhuman because of their skin color. Aka "othering."
In fantasy, you're potentially creating a world in which othering is in fact a true appraisal of reality rather than racist nonsense. There's nothing wrong with creating such a world, but my gut instinct is that it's still really creepy and gross.
If you feel this way, then absolutely I'd say, don't play in worlds like that. But if you're going to criticize anyone else for how they play, you should have something more than gut instinct. Othering is broader than racism or colonialism. Any group will have in-group vs out-of-group. Native freedom fighters who oppose colonial invaders will use language and pictures that treat the invaders as the Other. For example, in GURPS Fantasy II, humans have primitive technology and fight against various horrible monsters. The most organized monsters are the sophisticated, high-tech Soulless.
Literature and fantasy has a lot of power over how people think - but interpretations vary a lot, and it's a high bar to put any one interpretation as objectively true.
So I'd say play what you enjoy and are comfortable with, and don't worry so much about what other people play.
Quote from: SHARK on August 03, 2021, 02:17:42 AM
Pulp stories use language that is offensive! Volo's Guide uses language that is reminiscent of colonialist descriptions!
Oh my God! SO WHAT? Use whatever language and words you want. Stop being led around by the nose by race-grifters and demagogues and fucking brainwashed.
Agreed.
If what you enjoy playing is chopping up orcs, enjoy playing that.
If what you enjoy playing is adventures of rainbow hippo girls or proms at Harry-Potter-esque magical academies, enjoy playing that.
I think there's way too much taking offense at how other people play.