Quote from: Dan Davenport;618602What game systems do you think do the best job of simulating pain, as well as the fear of pain?

GURPS and Harnmaster

GURPS because of the distinction between different damage types which effects the amount of damage AFTER armor deducted. Blunt damage is not modified. For Cutting damage any damage after armor is multiplied by 1.5. For impaling damage the multiplier is 2.

Plus if you take more than half your health you gain a major roll and have to roll health to see if you fall down, and roll health again to see if you are stunned (not knocked out).

Harnmaster because they have a shock save after you take damage and their damage charts take into account the difference between crushing, edged, and piercing weapons in the way you talked about.

Both are quick to resolve and players react as you would expect.

Quote from: Drohem;618672Off the top of my head, HarnMaster has the most detailed injury system that I've seen, and it has an effective combat and injury system.  Obviously, it might more detailed than most people are looking for but it just might scratch that itch for some who want more detail for combat and injury in their gaming.

It boils down to roll injury, make one or two saves against your attributes. In my experience it resolves fast as long as you have a copy of the chart in front of you. This is also helped by the front loaded character sheets.

It the only RPG with a detailed combat system I ran where it added greatly to immersion.

http://www.columbiagames.com/resources/4001/harnmaster-combattables.pdf

Quote from: estar;618802It the only RPG with a detailed combat system I ran where it added greatly to immersion.

http://www.columbiagames.com/resources/4001/harnmaster-combattables.pdf

What I like about the columbia games harnmaster (much understanding is there are a few different versions of the game and don't know how they compare) is they got so many of the important details (they even get into different treatment options for physicians) but something about the presentation makes it feel less overwhelming than a lot of other similar games.

Quote from: estar;618802It boils down to roll injury, make one or two saves against your attributes. In my experience it resolves fast as long as you have a copy of the chart in front of you. This is also helped by the front loaded character sheets.

It the only RPG with a detailed combat system I ran where it added greatly to immersion.

http://www.columbiagames.com/resources/4001/harnmaster-combattables.pdf

Sure, I have no issues with it.  Years ago, I ran a gladiatorial arena game based on the combat rules.  I know that some people view the HârnMaster rules as on the complex side, but when you boil it down it's fairly simple and straightforward.

Quote from: Drohem;618809Sure, I have no issues with it.  Years ago, I ran a gladiatorial arena game based on the combat rules.  I know that some people view the HârnMaster rules as on the complex side, but when you boil it down it's fairly simple and straightforward.

Yup as long as you got the character sheets filled out and a copy of the charts. Currently the only major issue is that 3rd edition Shock Rule is too hard core. It almost certain that somebody will go down on the second or third blow even from a light wound. However it easily fixed by changing the penalty to the save.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;618733If characters die easily enough, people will role play fear just fine.

Best line of the thread. :cheerleader:

(And the solution I'm pursuing for my Infinity Gaming System.)

On fear of pain: fear and reactions to the same are visceral, not cerebral. You don't usually fear things because they're objectively scary (that's where wariness tends to come from), but because your snake brain is screaming at your endocrine system, which dumps adrenaline into your blood. (Some other complicated things happening there as well.) That prompts your flight-or-flight response. (Fear is also different than terror, to add another complexity.)

Spiders are viscerally disquieting. We're genetically programmed to find their movements creepy and off-putting.

Sunglasses are intimidating. (People never believe me when I say this, but it's true.) Facing a human being who lacks eyes is alienating, we respond as if they're a threat. That's why the Secret Service wears them.

And, objectively speaking, guns are far more dangerous than knives. Guns are far more likely to kill you or do significant damage to your vitals.

Even so, the edge of a blade is far more threatening than a gun. People are more scared by knives than pistols. (This has been tested empirically.) The threat of getting sliced evokes an atavistic response.

It's visceral, not cerebral.

Can you model this in a game? I'm thinking about how, for my afore-pimped game. After all, it plays into things like suppressive fire, morale, and other very important concepts.

Haven't thought of a good way to do so. Your Fear check thing is promising, though.

As for "don't want you to take control of my character" (mentioned by Exploder). That's why there is (or should be) Advantages.

If you want an impassive combat veteran, who's not afraid of anything, then you pony up points at creation to become one of them, the same way you'd have to do to become a crack sniper or crackerjack racecar driver. Games with this kind of mechanic should allow for that, IMHO.

Quote from: CRKrueger;618794situational awareness (Jeff Cooper's Conditions)

Where can I find out more?

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;618808What I like about the columbia games harnmaster (much understanding is there are a few different versions of the game and don't know how they compare) is they got so many of the important details (they even get into different treatment options for physicians) but something about the presentation makes it feel less overwhelming than a lot of other similar games.

In the beginning .....

There was Harnmaster 1st edition

Then there was Harnmaster 2nd edition in full color which cleaned up a lot of the 1st edition issue but lost some of the nice subsystems (like weaponcrafting).

N Robin Crossby the creator of Harn was not happy with how 2nd edition was going to turn out, among other issues between him and Columbia Games, so published his own Harnmaster Gold in three books. It is Harnmaster 1st edition on steroids and rather overpriced.

Columbia Games cleaned up 2nd edition and released 3rd edition which added back some of the missing 1st edition stuff and a little more. The separate books for Magic and Religion for 2nd edition still works for 3rd edition. The only major flaw is the overly deadly shock rolls (Xd6 versus endurance where X is the amount of injury you took plus your previous injuries). I fixed this by changing it to Xd6 where X is only the current level of injury you took and you add the previous injuries. So now you can take a few minor hits before collapsing from shock.

Harnmaster is still the same well designed system it was in 1st edition including the details for treatment you remember. It may look complex but in play it works well and is very straightforward to resolve the mechanics.

Quote from: estar;618826In the beginning .....

There was Harnmaster 1st edition

Then there was Harnmaster 2nd edition in full color which cleaned up a lot of the 1st edition issue but lost some of the nice subsystems (like weaponcrafting).

N Robin Crossby the creator of Harn was not happy with how 2nd edition was going to turn out, among other issues between him and Columbia Games, so published his own Harnmaster Gold in three books. It is Harnmaster 1st edition on steroids and rather overpriced.

Columbia Games cleaned up 2nd edition and released 3rd edition which added back some of the missing 1st edition stuff and a little more. The separate books for Magic and Religion for 2nd edition still works for 3rd edition. The only major flaw is the overly deadly shock rolls (Xd6 versus endurance where X is the amount of injury you took plus your previous injuries). I fixed this by changing it to Xd6 where X is only the current level of injury you took and you add the previous injuries. So now you can take a few minor hits before collapsing from shock.

Harnmaster is still the same well designed system it was in 1st edition including the details for treatment you remember. It may look complex but in play it works well and is very straightforward to resolve the mechanics.

I have third edition and quite like it. I agree it looks complex but it is quite smooth and the way the rule book is organized really helps.

Quote from: Claudius;618667in my opinion, the system that does pain and fear of pain best are Ironclaw 2nd edition and Usagi Yojimbo (Sanguine), with the added advantage of simplicity.

OK, here comes the explanation.

In both games, whenever you're hit, even if it's only a scratch, you're sent "Reeling". When you're Reeling, the only action you can take is Recover from Reeling (so you lose an action), and attackers get a bonus to hit you. This represents very well the pain you feel when you're hit "Argh, that hurt!"

In Ironclaw, whenever you suffer two or more points of damage, you get "Afraid". When you're Afraid, you cannot attack (although you can defend yourself), until you lose sight of all your enemies, or you get rallied. This represents that, when someone hits you, your intent of fighting decreases sharply.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;618668Sometimes I wish we had a martial arts subforum here:)

I think I contributed to getting this discussion away from the OPs initial subject of pain and RPG mechanics. My guess is he isn't terribly concerned about being 100% realistic and more concerned about something that feels right for most people at the table.

So to backpeddle a bit, I would say if you want something to reflect stuff like being stunned by pain I think the following might work: depending on your wound system, you could have each character possess a Pain threshold which is triggered when they take a certain amount of damage. For example, maybe characters all have a wound threshold of between 1-4. If you have a 1 and take one wound, you don't have to worry, but if you take two wounds in a single blow, that exceeds your wound threshold and you suffer penalties. This could just be for the one round (to avoid the whole death spiral issue) or conditional on failing some kind of endurance check like I mentioned before. I think the key is getting around problem where seemingly reasonable wound penalties have too pronounced an effect for what they are intended to represent.

The reason I think a pain threshold might work, is it makes things a bit more relative. So Newton the 90 pound professor might have a pain threshold of 1, but Biff the Beefcake might have a 3 or 4.

+1 for martial arts sub-forum

Orignal BootHill had an attribute for Bravery and basically the top end fearless or foolhardy characters got a bonus to speed (initiative) and accuracy.
So whilst it didn't try to simulate pain etc it did look at coolness under fire type thing (twilight 2000 right ?)
in addition each hit reduced your speed so as you were hit you dropped down the pecking order and so were likely to get hit again... sounds a bit liek the reeling mechanic above although that sounds more like Shaken in SW.

Quote from: smiorgan;618618Ah, Rolemaster.

...aaaaaand Thread.

Rolemaster works perfectly well because of the fear induced in players by the criticals.
Unarmed brawler going up against a guy with a knife? He knows he's a roll away from getting stuck like a pig, dropping and bleeding out in 9 rounds.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;618822Where can I find out more?

This is from Wikipedia, Cooper's book would be the best place probably.

The most important means of surviving a lethal confrontation, according to Cooper, is neither the weapon nor the martial skills. The primary tool is the combat mindset, set forth in his book, Principles of Personal Defense.

In the chapter on awareness, Cooper presents an adaptation of the Marine Corps system to differentiate states of readiness: The color code, as originally introduced by Jeff Cooper, had nothing to do with tactical situations or alertness levels, but rather with one's state of mind. As taught by Cooper, it relates to the degree of peril you are willing to do something about and which allows you to move from one level of mindset to another to enable you to properly handle a given situation. Cooper did not claim to have invented anything in particular with the color code, but he was apparently the first to use it as an indication of mental state.

• White: Unaware and unprepared. If attacked in Condition White, the only thing that may save you is the inadequacy or ineptitude of your attacker. When confronted by something nasty, your reaction will probably be "Oh my God! This can't be happening to me."
  
• Yellow: Relaxed alert. No specific threat situation. Your mindset is that "today could be the day I may have to defend myself". You are simply aware that the world is a potentially unfriendly place and that you are prepared to defend yourself, if necessary. You use your eyes and ears, and realize that "I may have to shoot today". You don't have to be armed in this state, but if you are armed you should be in Condition Yellow. You should always be in Yellow whenever you are in unfamiliar surroundings or among people you don't know. You can remain in Yellow for long periods, as long as you are able to "Watch your six." (In aviation 12 o'clock refers to the direction in front of the aircraft's nose. Six o'clock is the blind spot behind the pilot.) In Yellow, you are "taking in" surrounding information in a relaxed but alert manner, like a continuous 360 degree radar sweep. As Cooper put it, "I might have to shoot."
  
• Orange: Specific alert. Something is not quite right and has your attention. Your radar has picked up a specific alert. You shift your primary focus to determine if there is a threat (but you do not drop your six). Your mindset shifts to "I may have to shoot that person today", focusing on the specific target which has caused the escalation in alert status. In Condition Orange, you set a mental trigger: "If that person does "X", I will need to stop them". Your pistol usually remains holstered in this state. Staying in Orange can be a bit of a mental strain, but you can stay in it for as long as you need to. If the threat proves to be nothing, you shift back to Condition Yellow.
  
• Red: Condition Red is fight. Your mental trigger (established back in Condition Orange) has been tripped. "If 'X' happens I will shoot that person"
  
• Black: The USMC uses condition Black, although it was not originally part of Cooper's Color Code. Catastrophic breakdown of mental and physical performance. Usually over 175 heartbeats per minute, increased heart rate becomes counter productive. May have stopped thinking correctly. This can happen when going from Condition White or Yellow immediately to Condition Red.
  

In short, the Color Code helps you "think" in a fight. As the level of danger increases, your willingness to take certain actions increases. If you ever do go to Condition Red, the decision to use lethal force has already been made (your "mental trigger" has been tripped).

Personally, I think pain and fear of pain is something you'd want to emulate on in very particular genres of games.  Westerns come to mind if they're a certain kind of western; as do certain kind of modern war theme games.

But I don't think its something you'd want if you're emulating kung-fu, or an action movie, or for standard D&D.

RPGPundit

Quote from: CRKrueger;619084This is from Wikipedia, Cooper's book would be the best place probably.

Thanks for the info.