Is there any reference in Tolkien's works as to:
1. Elves having pointy ears?
2. Elves having darkvision?
3. Dwarves having darkvision?
4. Any race having infravision?
I think the answer to of those questions is No, but it's been some time since I read the books.
Answering to a question on Hobbit ears, Tolkien wrote that these were "only slightly pointed and 'elvish'.
In the Etymologies is stated that "the Quendian ears were more pointed and leaf-shaped than Human."
Elves have keener senses than Men, and many of them are able to see into the spirit world as well, so I suspect between the two they would appear able to see in darkness. Dwarves aren't attributed with this same ability, but logic suggests a race which preferred to live underground would be able to adjust to low light conditions faster and more effectively. No race in the Tolkien legendarium, however, is ever described as being able to see heat or infrared specifically that I know of.
Quote from: Mistwell on December 31, 2020, 09:32:51 PM
Answering to a question on Hobbit ears, Tolkien wrote that these were "only slightly pointed and 'elvish'.
In the Etymologies is stated that "the Quendian ears were more pointed and leaf-shaped than Human."
Thanks! That solves question 1.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on December 31, 2020, 10:39:23 PM
Elves have keener senses than Men, and many of them are able to see into the spirit world as well, so I suspect between the two they would appear able to see in darkness.
I thought I read somewhere where they could see under a starlit sky, but I might be confused.
QuoteDwarves aren't attributed with this same ability, but logic suggests a race which preferred to live underground would be able to adjust to low light conditions faster and more effectively.
That makes sense. But I was wondering if there was any explicit mention. How about in the descriptions of Moria-- any torches or lanterns lying around? Torch sconces, maybe? I don't recall any.
QuoteNo race in the Tolkien legendarium, however, is ever described as being able to see heat or infrared specifically that I know of.
That solves 3 and 4. Where did Gygax get infravision from? The 1970's Westworld movie (LOL)?
There's never been any mention specifically of Dark vision or Infravision for Elves or Dwarves that I'm aware of and I've read many of the Tolkien books.
Elves certainly have superior vision than other races though (Keener vision or some such comment, amongst other comments). That is mentioned several times in LOTR.
Also Bilbo was noted as having better vision than the Dwarves in "The Hobbit". but dunno if that is specific to Bilbo.
Would think Dwarves being more accustomed to being underground and used to the environment is more an explanation than Dark vision.
Gygax read a lot of science fiction, the thermal vision may have come from trying to overrationalize something that's supposed to be magic.
D&D elves and dwarves are more Poul Anderson than Tolkien IIRC. But yeah, I think the "thermal vision" stuff is a D&Dism.
There are some specific "game" elements too, such as NPCs losing infravision if they join the PCs.
Quote from: Pat on January 02, 2021, 08:51:39 AM
Gygax read a lot of science fiction, the thermal vision may have come from trying to overrationalize something that's supposed to be magic.
In OD&D monsters could see in the dark but characters could not. If a monster chose to work with the party, he lost his dark-vision. This wasn't designed to be a "realism" thing at all, but was designed to put characters at a disadvantage.
Quote from: Aglondir on December 31, 2020, 09:14:26 PM
Is there any reference in Tolkien's works as to:
1. Elves having pointy ears?
2. Elves having darkvision?
3. Dwarves having darkvision?
4. Any race having infravision?
I think the answer to of those questions is No, but it's been some time since I read the books.
1) Not really
2) Nope, although they can see in starlight as if it was daytime (they COULD have heat vision, but this is never spelled out anywhere)
3) Similar to elves, although it is implied they can see normally in absolute darkness to some degree
4) Implied for orcs, but never explicitly
So basically, the answer is pretty much no across the board if you're just reading the Silmarillion, LotR, or the Hobbit. Unfinished Tales has some stuff that makes me believe elves had some sort of darkvision, but it's hard to tell.
While not explicitly stated, there's a LOT of implication that elves had some form of perception beyond the usual visual spectrum. There's a passing remark during the meeting between Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli versus Eomer and his riders, when Aragorn faced Eomer down, and Legolas perceived the phantom of a crown flickering on Aragorn's head. Later in the series, as Aragorn and his forces travel the paths of the dead, Legolas comments on how he could perceive the shades of the dead but was unfazed by them.
My guess is that this fairly vague description was distilled down into infravision and later low-light/darkvision, for RPGs.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on January 26, 2021, 12:10:57 PM
While not explicitly stated, there's a LOT of implication that elves had some form of perception beyond the usual visual spectrum. There's a passing remark during the meeting between Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli versus Eomer and his riders, when Aragorn faced Eomer down, and Legolas perceived the phantom of a crown flickering on Aragorn's head. Later in the series, as Aragorn and his forces travel the paths of the dead, Legolas comments on how he could perceive the shades of the dead but was unfazed by them.
My guess is that this fairly vague description was distilled down into infravision and later low-light/darkvision, for RPGs.
Dunedain could also use "farseeing" which I suppose is some sort of clairvoyance. Items made by elves were "magical", same with dwarvish made devices. Elves were basically in the physical realm and some sort of ethereal state at the same time, hence their ability to see ringwraiths and wights in their true form. Etc., etc. I think it's safe to assume there was a subtle otherworldly quality to everything except plain old low Men, so I would have no real issue saying Gygax distilled down the elvish ability to see supernatural qualities as infravision.
As elves unlike men are soulbound to Arda they can percieve both material and spiritual side of it by their natural perception.
So yes they see all things invisible for mortals generally.
Both the Elves and the Dwarfs were created prior to Morgoth's shenanigans with the Trees. So they lived in a world with no light but the stars for an untold amount of time. The Noldor are so fancy because they made it to Valinor and lived in the light of the Trees. The rest of the Moriquendi stayed behind.
Given this I'd say it's safe to assume they at least had better low light vision than the Edain.
Quote from: KingCheops on January 27, 2021, 11:00:32 AM
Both the Elves and the Dwarfs were created prior to Morgoth's shenanigans with the Trees. So they lived in a world with no light but the stars for an untold amount of time. The Noldor are so fancy because they made it to Valinor and lived in the light of the Trees. The rest of the Moriquendi stayed behind.
This is a nitpicky tangent, but I wouldn't characterize it as Noldor vs. "the rest of the elves." The elves that completed the journey to Aman included Vanyar, Noldor, and some (but not all) Teleri. Any of those would be considered Caliquendi rather than Moriquendi. The Moriquendi would definitely include the Avari, and also those Teleri groups that didn't continue on to Aman (e.g., Nandor, et cetera).
Quote from: Philotomy Jurament on January 27, 2021, 12:25:23 PM
Quote from: KingCheops on January 27, 2021, 11:00:32 AM
Both the Elves and the Dwarfs were created prior to Morgoth's shenanigans with the Trees. So they lived in a world with no light but the stars for an untold amount of time. The Noldor are so fancy because they made it to Valinor and lived in the light of the Trees. The rest of the Moriquendi stayed behind.
This is a nitpicky tangent, but I wouldn't characterize it as Noldor vs. "the rest of the elves." The elves that completed the journey to Aman included Vanyar, Noldor, and some (but not all) Teleri. Any of those would be considered Caliquendi rather than Moriquendi. The Moriquendi would definitely include the Avari, and also those Teleri groups that didn't continue on to Aman (e.g., Nandor, et cetera).
Lol yes fair enough. I was using overly broad brush strokes to avoid some of these questions and ended up in them anyway. My point was more that sun and moon didn't exist when these peoples were first born so they must have some sort of superior ability to see in darkness.
Elvish history in particular is very tricky.
I don't recall dwarfs getting any kind of special vision, and I believe Tolkien described Durin's home as being lit by crystal lamps.
Quote from: Longshadow on January 27, 2021, 07:34:23 PM
I don't recall dwarfs getting any kind of special vision, and I believe Tolkien described Durin's home as being lit by crystal lamps.
The dwarfs were comfortable in low-light underground conditions, but had no special abilities to see in the dark.
QuoteThe light of sun, and star, and moon,
In shining lamps of crystal hewn.
Undimmed by cloud or shade of night,
There shone forever fair and bright.
This is from the
Song of Durin, sung by Gimli as the Fellowship moved through Moria.
There's also a very funny exasperated rant from Gimli to Legolas about the Glittering Caves, about how the Rohirrim used them for storing supplies when to dwarfs they were gorgeous expanses that deserved to be tended and lit with lamps like those that shone in Moria.
Quote from: Aglondir on December 31, 2020, 09:14:26 PM
Is there any reference in Tolkien's works as to:
1. Elves having pointy ears?
2. Elves having darkvision?
3. Dwarves having darkvision?
4. Any race having infravision?
I think the answer to of those questions is No, but it's been some time since I read the books.
Lets see.
1: Kinda. Theres mention of hobbits having slightly pointed elvish ears. Which can be read various ways. Elves having pointed ears is a relatively recent feature from I believe the 1800s? So you will find depictions of them with non-pointed ears. So its 50-50 what they might have been inspired by in the books. If anything.
2: They had supernatural vision and I believe some, or all, had very keen vision. Also I believe they could see normally at night. Another one that can be read various ways.
3: Not that I recall. Theres a bit in one of the books where a dwarf wants to install lights to show off a cave. It is never mentioned how bright these lights are, or are not soooo, yep, also can be read different ways.
4: nope. 99.99% sure thats something from D&D.
X: Note that OD&D PC Dwarves Elves and Halflings can neither see in the dark nor see infrared. AD&D seems to be where they acquired infravision. In B only Dwarves have infravision. In BX Dwarves and Elves have it. Halflings do not. Same for BECMI. In AD&D Halflings had infravision dependant on their lineage. Same for 2e.
And some I'll add to that
5: Magic resistant Dwarves: Far as I recall no. None of the dwarves were resistant and if anything seemed rather susceptible to magic?
6: No-magic Dwarves: Seemed to be using magic weapons ok in the books? Pretty sure thats a D&D thing.
7: Magic resistant Hobbits: From the books seems not. Individuals might muster the willpower to resist but overall they succomb to magic like anyone else.
Quote from: Omega on January 28, 2021, 10:47:02 AM
5: Magic resistant Dwarves: Far as I recall no. None of the dwarves were resistant and if anything seemed rather susceptible to magic?
6: No-magic Dwarves: Seemed to be using magic weapons ok in the books? Pretty sure thats a D&D thing.
7: Magic resistant Hobbits: From the books seems not. Individuals might muster the willpower to resist but overall they succomb to magic like anyone else.
The magic resistance might've grown out of how Tolkien described the failure of the the rings of power to bring the dwarfs under Sauron's control. Paraphrasing from his Appendices, they could be slain, or broken in will, but they did not fade and could not be turned to wraiths. They were made by Aule, and he made them tough -- and so Sauron hated them even more (The irony that Sauron himself was a former servant of Aule did not escape me).
I've also speculated that was why Sauron eventually moved to collect the dwarf rings. Their powers were undefined (except for the comment 'the ring needs gold to breed gold' made by Thror to Thrain), but clearly all they did was make dwarfs crankier and greedier and it was hard to tell the difference. Yes, they helped sow chaos in the ranks of the free peoples; but it was not a great return on investment, and Sauron probably didn't want any of the seven falling into the hands of Elrond or Gandalf for study.
So as noted they were susceptible to magic. But you are right and they were apparently practically immune to being turned into the equivalent of undead.
Seems like their main weakness was mind effecting magic. The rings, elven glamour as it were, other thingies, etc. In AD&D they can not use magic at all and can even depower magic items they put on.