Do you want, even in high-level play, for D&D deities to have stats? Or do you think that this just reduces them to the level of monsters?
"If you didn't want us to kill it, you shouldn't have written stats for it!"
No. I dislike players being able to possibly kill them or deal with them as possible equals. So don't be dumb enough to stat them unless you can deal with your players killing them.
D&D gods are, and always have been, monsters.
To be more accurate, they are superheroes and supervillians with elemental themed superpowers.
I suppose that it comes down to the style of play desired.
Moorcock has several examples of Elric and Corum dealing with "the gods" in his stories and if characters can interact with the gods then it makes sense that they would need stats. I've played OD&D for four decades and owned Jim Ward's Gods, DemiGods and Heroes supplement for roughly that entire time, and only one campaign was such that I had a player interested in dealing with the gods. G,DG&H was mostly a wasted resource otherwise.
So ... I'm pretty mixed on the issue. Stat 'em if you like; I won't use it much.
I prefer the way the RC D&D handles it: They are Immortals, a level which the pcs can ascend to (eventually and under certain circumstances). Like other extra-planar beings, when killed anywhere except their home plane they are barred from returning for a specific amount of time. They can only be permanently killed on their home plane. AD&D gods are not statted tough enough when considering magic available to high level characters.
Depends on the gods. Some were all too mortal and this can be statted out. Others are so powerful that nothing mortal can oppose them. And a few are in between. People with enough power can stand on the same level. And in some theres a odd transition where when on the mortal plane they are themselves less powerful and possibly even mortal or at least harmable with sufficient force.
So its a matter of what type you want?
If they are killable, or they exist in a domain, natural or supernatural, that players themselves can reach, yes, absolutely.
Doesn't matter to me, just make them consistent. If the gods are just super-powered heroes and/or jerks who battle giants and go on wacky adventures, than sure, make them killable. If they are divine beings responsible for the upkeep of cosmic necessities, then they should be un-killable, but they should be sending heroes on those quests to battle giants and have wacky adventures.
Yes. D&D Gods should have stats because everything in D&D is treated as a monster at some point during the game.
Quote from: RPGPundit;965451Do you want, even in high-level play, for D&D deities to have stats? Or do you think that this just reduces them to the level of monsters?
No to the first question and yes to the second.
No. Avatars and demigods, yes, but not the gods themselves. They might be killable, but not just by punching them strong enough.
Then again, level 10+ D&D seldomly holds my interest anyway...
Stats are good but usually gods are just sent home to think again, as in the Illiad. Even Moorcock's Champion only defeated particular manifestations of Arioch etc.
I think it is fine, but it is something that effects the game in a big way. If gods have stats, they can be killed or even restrained with a grapple depending on the edition. I think it works for certain kinds of campaigns. If I am doing something in the style of Journey to the West, I might want the players to be able to contend with the gods at a certain point. But it doesn't work for every campaign. If the gods are more distant and powerful and not something you expect PCs to be able to kill, they either shouldn't have stats or should have hefty immunities (even a blanket 'unless you are X level you cannot affect a god in any way' rule).
Like all things, it depends on the type of game.
So ... if I run a campaign and Zeus gets killed, is that a problem?
I would say "no" within the context that it's not like the characters killed the "real" Zeus in every campaign -- just the one in this particular campaign. If the events from there go south, you can always start a new campaign where Zeus lives or come up with some way that he actually escaped death even though the players thought they got him. There are always ways around this stuff.
On the other hand, if you subscribe to the notion that the gods are immortal and shouldn't be killed ever, simply ignore the given stats and have fun with the game that way.
It would be interesting to see Pundit's take on this, since he wrote LoO and gave a setting where gods could interact characters.
Quote from: hedgehobbit;965494D&D gods are, and always have been, monsters.
To be more accurate, they are superheroes and supervillians with elemental themed superpowers.
Exactly correct. I like using D&D gods in the same way I use D&D demons and devils.
I would have said "NO" a few years ago but I thought Petty Gods handled it very well and made the idea cool.
Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;965547I would have said "NO" a few years ago but I thought Petty Gods handled it very well and made the idea cool.
This^^
For 3.x/Pathfinder, FFG came out with a short set of rules for Small Gods having a limited number of followers and granted abilities that has worked out pretty good for my own games.
Yes, with appropriate riders. You know, things like:
Blarblog, Devilish Lord of Nasty Hijinx:
[big ol' block of stats]
~Divine Immortality~
If Blarblog is on any plane other than his home plane of the Nine Hells, killing him simply banishes him.
If he is in the Nine Hells, he is immune to all weapon damage except by weapons forged on Thor'nak, Anvil of the Gods, and he is unaffected by any spell unless he has been previously struck by such a weapon on this round.
Or whatever.
Edit: Basically the god's stats should have some kind of quest hook for killing the god rather than LOL I HIT U WITH MAGIC MISSILE 5000X NOW U DIE.
Quote from: RPGPundit;965451Do you want, even in high-level play, for D&D deities to have stats? Or do you think that this just reduces them to the level of monsters?
D&D quickly escalated to that sort of thing, even in the 70s, when M.A.R Barker wryly asked "So how many hit points does Jesus have?"
Personally, I dislike the idea of encountering statted deities "in the flesh"
Personally, I prefer gods to operate entirely through proxies. Their zealous followers can be met and fought (or not), I'm even fine with their supernatural minions (demons, angels, whatever) being combattable. But actual gods? For me gods should be ineffable. And if they aren't, don't call them gods.
Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;965547I would have said "NO" a few years ago but I thought Petty Gods handled it very well and made the idea cool.
That's a book I have been on the fence about for a long while. Can you elaborate on how they handle it?
Giving Gods stats is like DC killing of Superman.
It makes an interesting story, but they just come back again eventually.
I will tell you now characters in my gaming group will never become powerful enough to kill a true God. That would just make them God like themselves and trust me my players/characters egos are big enough as it is, they don't need the added inflation.
Heh. The original intent of "Gods, Demigods, and Heroes" was to (theoretically) show the "absurdity of a 45th level wizard, if Odin Allfather only has 300 hit points."
This promptly blew up in TSR's face; instead of "oooh, we should scale our campaign down," the vast majority of players treated the book as yet another monster manual.
GDG&H was the book that proved conclusively that Gygax had lost control of the game he published.
Don't care. If they don't have stats, and I need them for the rare cosmic power campaign, I can add the stats. If they do have stats, they are probably not correct for what I want to do, and thus I'll change them for the rare cosmic power campaign. Assuming, of course, that I get around to running said campaign.
I am fine with Gods having stats. If they die they die.
It's limiting to have a single answer to this question. The answer is whatever suits your campaign. I could see stats working with something like a Greek pantheon. They seized the top spot by force, so it only makes sense that they could get knocked down. When you add in Zeus' constant seed sowing, he is essentially engaging in an inadvertent uplift campaign to make humans more divine.
Nothing wrong with transcendent gods either. Just make sure you put some thought into why you are making the decisions you are.
only if you intend on putting them into direct conflict with the PC's.
If you choose to put them into direct conflict with one another - I suggest Primal Order.
No, but they should have valets with stats.
Quote from: Madprofessor;965560That's a book I have been on the fence about for a long while. Can you elaborate on how they handle it?
In format, it's basically the same as 1st Ed Deities & Demigods. In tone...it was done by dozens of contributors, so the tone and quality are all over the place, but this weirdly works in the book's favor. It really does feel like a collection of arcane obscure religions from across a gonzo fantasy world. It's fun to play a cleric and pick your religion by flipping to a random page.
Quote from: Zirunel;965556D&D quickly escalated to that sort of thing, even in the 70s, when M.A.R Barker wryly asked "So how many hit points does Jesus have?"
Personally, I dislike the idea of encountering statted deities "in the flesh"
Personally, I prefer gods to operate entirely through proxies. Their zealous followers can be met and fought (or not), I'm even fine with their supernatural minions (demons, angels, whatever) being combattable. But actual gods? For me gods should be ineffable. And if they aren't, don't call them gods.
Not to be blasphemous, but wasn't the whole point about Jesus that he only had, like, 8 hit points?
Quote from: Larsdangly;965635Not to be blasphemous, but wasn't the whole point about Jesus that he only had, like, 8 hit points?
Good call. I don't remember what the "answer" to the question was. I assume it was only rhetorical. But yeah. Jesus is the template (or a template) for a God made manifest, acting on the material plane, with, at least plausibly, a stat block. And hit points. And in his case probably not that many hit points either. You have to guess a level 1 thief with an oyster knife, if he wasn't persuaded to pick up and follow him, could take him down pretty easily. Of course, Jesus is also a template for the idea that a God can't really be killed on the material plane. Sure, thief + oyster knife=temporary win, but in short order there will be a resurrection, then an ascension. It works theologically, but I don't find it very appealing from an rpg point of view.
On the other hand, I am reminded of the Jack Vance story about the wizard who spends centuries of effort trying to summon some supreme being/principle, and when he finally manages it, it manifests as a blobby ineffectual tentacled thing and some murder-hobo adventurer who is desperately hungry happens upon it in that moment and kills it and eats it. That does kind of work for me. I guess I'm torn on this question.
If it bleeds, it can die!
Totally depends on the campaign. I've run D&D games were mortal Avatars of the gods walked the earth using the stats which was cool because we'd have god fights with PCs taking sides, even at lower levels.
However, in general, I don't stat them up.
The best use for the 1E Deities and Demigods I ever thought up was a fantasy earth campaign where the world was divided into principalities, more or less along the lines of classical and medieval nations, but each ruled by the culturally appropriate pantheon, where each nation's leadership had the same sort of internecine politics and struggles and weirdo's you'd associate with a medieval kingdom's nobility, except the tremendous powers of the ruling elite meant the nations were kind of dystopic shit holes. England and parts of france are an exception (home to the Arthurian heroes, who are christians and push back the forces of surrounding god-states). Magic-user characters summon demons and devils as allies to push back against the manifested god's over reaching powers. Clerics are mostly ass holes who serve the dominant powers of their state.
I only ever ran a couple of sessions in this campaign and the players didn't really get to explore much of the setting's potential. But I still enjoyed creating it and think it was one of the better uses of the book that I've heard of.
No, no real need for stats. And Deities & Demigods was my gateway drug into D&D. Even still, I knew it was mostly for fun, not for practical game use for anything I'd want to run or play.
Quote from: Zirunel;965643On the other hand, I am reminded of the Jack Vance story about the wizard who spends centuries of effort trying to summon some supreme being/principle, and when he finally manages it, it manifests as a blobby ineffectual tentacled thing and some murder-hobo adventurer who is desperately hungry happens upon it in that moment and kills it and eats it. That does kind of work for me. I guess I'm torn on this question.
Hey! Cugel the Clever isn't just some murder-hobo adventurer. He is THE murder-hobo adventurer!
I prefer the 2e approach which is that the God on their own plane is not killable but they can send (very, very powerful) avatars to other planes that can be destroyed. Keeps the Gods appropriately God-like. Even works for Jesus mannnn. Legends and Lore was also more useful than Deities and Demigods because it included cleric/priest info for the Gods and pantheons.
A Gods-level game is pretty tempting though, the BECMI Immortals rules never seemed that workable to me, in either version, but Crawford's demigodish Godbound is a pretty great attempt to do God-level adventures.
Quote from: Voros;965706I prefer the 2e approach which is that the God on their own plane is not killable but they can send (very, very powerful) avatars to other planes that can be destroyed. Keeps the Gods appropriately God-like.
I found this to be the worst possible solution. Not only are the gods just high level monsters, but there is no consequences for killing them. They are, instead, respawning tools for XP grinding.
Quote from: Baulderstone;965603It's limiting to have a single answer to this question. The answer is whatever suits your campaign.
I use this test: If your campaign has more than one "Sun God", then gods need stats. Otherwise, no.
I admit that deities and demigods was a bit silly: "you encounter Hades, what do you do?" - "Lightning bolt, grapple and backstab, yeah." One of the first characters I was given by a "real" DM, when I was about 9 years old, was Deltar Copenhagen, a 165th level "power god" with about 7 classes. Which was actually cool as hell for a nine year old. I have to admit that that book led to some really stupid ideas for what D&D was supposed to be. It is still one of all time favorites.
Though in seriousness, there is tons of fantastic literature where gods or godlike beings are slain by mortal heroes - Elric, Conan, the Iliad, even Sauron was "slain" for example - so why not give them stats? You don't have to use them if you don't want to, and what does it mean for a god to die anyway? Are they imprisoned, embarrassed, banished to another dimension? In Call of Cthulhu, gods are the primary antagonists, not that PCs can hope to defeat them in straight up combat, but the game would be lame if it swapped Nyarlathotep's gruesome stats for a line that read "you can't fight a god, don't even think about it." Gods are staple foes in fantasy, and I think there are lots of settings where detailing their power mechanically in game terms is appropriate.
Quote from: hedgehobbit;965766I found this to be the worst possible solution. Not only are the gods just high level monsters, but there is no consequences for killing them. They are, instead, respawning tools for XP grinding.
I don't see that at all unless the DM is running their table like a videogame. The solutions to that are legion. For one the avatar would hardly be alone, can teleport instaneously and are super powerful. If their avatar was destroyed the God could take revenge on the PCs via their many followers, a curse or even major catastrophe visited on them and their family, town or even country. They could be assigned a quest to attone for their blasphemy. They are Gods.
Quote from: RPGPundit;965451Do you want, even in high-level play, for D&D deities to have stats? Or do you think that this just reduces them to the level of monsters?
I don't really play D&D, but statting gods seemed ridiculous to me even in 5th grade. Defining a god as a creature seems to me to be a misunderstanding of what gods are. On the other hand, it does seem to sort of go along with the craziness that D&D seems to me to be. If it were sort of like the gods who physically intervene in
The Illiad, and the humans and effects on the gods of resisting their physical manifestations were no greater than seen there, and had something in the direction of the added intelligence in
The Illiad, then I'd be semi-ok with it. ;)
If you can quantify a god, that's no god.
Quote from: Madprofessor;965560That's a book I have been on the fence about for a long while. Can you elaborate on how they handle it?
You can check out the pdf for free, and the book is just sold at cost.
Quote from: Baulderstone;965690Hey! Cugel the Clever isn't just some murder-hobo adventurer. He is THE murder-hobo adventurer!
You're right. And he was very much the model for how me and my group felt we should behave in rpg world. Save the world? Nah. Save my gold first. Epic quest? Nah. Only if I'm forced to, and even then I won't enjoy it. Much like Cugel.
But that's a different topic. Getting back to the Gods, no stat blocks for me please. In fact, I prefer them to be so aloof that it's uncertain whether they even exist.
Quote from: Zirunel;965859But that's a different topic. Getting back to the Gods, no stat blocks for me please. In fact, I prefer them to be so aloof that it's uncertain whether they even exist.
My Wilderlands gods both have stats, can be fought, AND it's uncertain whether they exist. :D
Quote from: Longshadow;965845You can check out the pdf for free, and the book is just sold at cost.
As is Godbound, which I think is a much better book, I didn't care for Petty Gods but Godbound is so good I plan to spring for a hardcopy. Kevin Crawford has finally produced a game that maked demi-God level play work at the table. He's so good I'm surprised WoTC hasn't scooped him up for a project.
Heroes defeating or destroying gods is common enough in mythology and fantasy that I can't think of any reason NOT to include it as a possibility in a fantasy/mythical setting.
Yes. I think people are too blinded by monotheism, of an all powerful god. and then just sort of retroactively apply that to the polytheistic gods they've heard of.
But in most cases gods were just powerful beings, not really any different than elves or giants or dragons, save that they resembled men and men worshiped them. If you read an encyclopedia of mythology, you'll see just how many gods there were. Most of them were local ones, gods of various places, ranging from rivers to forests to even streams and ponds. Strictly speaking, things like nymphs in Greek mythology were minor goddesses.
I'm no expert in world mythology but I can't recall any Greek tales of anyone beating a God in battle. Mortals could outwit Gods but usually a severe punishment was in the cards after that.
Quote from: Voros;965960I'm no expert in world mythology but I can't recall any Greek tales of anyone beating a God in battle. Mortals could outwit Gods but usually a severe punishment was in the cards after that.
Diomedes beat Ares, Aeneas beat Aphrodite, both in the Iliad. As two of us mentioned upthread.
In the Old Testament, Jehovah wrestles Jacob on the road and has to use a dirty trick to win.
Interestingly I don't think the Norse myths have any legends of humans defeating gods, though gods are definitely threatened by mortals.
Did anyone mention Primal Order yet?
Seems to me that outside of D&D and missing-the-point literal material interpretations, practically all gods in all traditions are best understood as metaphors and not as superheros or boss monsters. When a mythic hero struggles with and possibly defeats a god or even a monster, it has a metaphorical level that is the point and reason for the story. Heracles is not about how there was once this really strong guy, boy was he strong. His ST was HIGH. So high he defeated these snakes as a baby, and this lion with super-high armor class... Same with Norse myths about heroes fighting giants - no they're not just an account of random fantasy combat - the giants' names mean things, and if you read it metaphorically there's a message which contains wisdom about the human condition. Oh, the hero's name translates as Mercy and the giant he slew's name translates as Ancestral Blood Feud? Was the story about the great skill rolls Mercy made? Is Ancestral Blood Feud now dead and so no longer in the campaign? Hmm.
Quote from: Elfdart;965917Heroes defeating or destroying gods is common enough in mythology and fantasy that I can't think of any reason NOT to include it as a possibility in a fantasy/mythical setting.
My thoughts exactly.
Quote from: Voros;965960I'm no expert in world mythology but I can't recall any Greek tales of anyone beating a God in battle. Mortals could outwit Gods but usually a severe punishment was in the cards after that.
There are lots of examples in the Iliad of heroes defeating gods in battle. For example, Diomedes in one battle wounds Aphrodite which sends her back to Olympus, then nearly kills Apollo who begs for mercy, and then spears Ares, the god of war, in the stomach and kills him - though as an Olympian, Ares is immortal so he goes back to Olympus to brood in his anger and plot revenge. That's just one scene. There are others that I can't recall. I remember that Achilles, kills the unnamed god of the river Scamander, and this god does not reform or resurrect.
Quote from: Madprofessor;966023There are lots of examples in the Iliad of heroes defeating gods in battle. For example, Diomedes in one battle wounds Aphrodite which sends her back to Olympus, then nearly kills Apollo who begs for mercy, and then spears Ares, the god of war, in the stomach and kills him - though as an Olympian, Ares is immortal so he goes back to Olympus to brood in his anger and plot revenge. That's just one scene. There are others that I can't recall. I remember that Achilles, kills the unnamed god of the river Scamander, and this god does not reform or resurrect.
Well, one thing to remember is that these things we call myths are usually a snapshot of the folklore of said ancient culture at the point and time when it was recorded (often by a single source or two). Undoubtedly sometimes when these stories were told, the gods could be killed, sometimes not, sometimes killed but reformed, etc.
Quote from: Willie the Duck;966026Well, one thing to remember is that these things we call myths are usually a snapshot of the folklore of said ancient culture at the point and time when it was recorded (often by a single source or two). Undoubtedly sometimes when these stories were told, the gods could be killed, sometimes not, sometimes killed but reformed, etc.
Certainly, but the moment that this strain of myth was recorded, that act has also codified the myth as canon for our culture. Regardless, we do not need a mythological or historical precedent to fight gods in an rpg. As I pointed out before, there are also tons of examples in contemporary literature and pop media where gods are mortal antagonists for heroes. My point is that whether gods need game stats depends on what sort of fantasy world you create and what models you intend to follow. In your campaign, are gods remote, mysterious, all-powerful and immortal? Then you don't need stats for them - though you might need stats for their servitors or avatars. Are they petty, meddling, and jealous, or simply alien beings or demons worshiped like gods? If so, then stats could be useful, or at least interesting.
Quote from: RPGPundit;965451Do you want, even in high-level play, for D&D deities to have stats? Or do you think that this just reduces them to the level of monsters?
Everything should have stats. Even if it can't be killed, it still has a HP number.
Quote from: Madprofessor;966023There are lots of examples in the Iliad of heroes defeating gods in battle. For example, Diomedes in one battle wounds Aphrodite which sends her back to Olympus, then nearly kills Apollo who begs for mercy, and then spears Ares, the god of war, in the stomach and kills him - though as an Olympian, Ares is immortal so he goes back to Olympus to brood in his anger and plot revenge. That's just one scene. There are others that I can't recall. I remember that Achilles, kills the unnamed god of the river Scamander, and this god does not reform or resurrect.
Cool, I haven't read the Illiad in the original but its on my shelf. That story of Ares is probably the inspiration for 2e's avatars.
Quote from: S'mon;965965Diomedes beat Ares, Aeneas beat Aphrodite, both in the Iliad. As two of us mentioned upthread.
In the Old Testament, Jehovah wrestles Jacob on the road and has to use a dirty trick to win.
Interestingly I don't think the Norse myths have any legends of humans defeating gods, though gods are definitely threatened by mortals.
In
Gesta Danorum, a collection of Norse Myths compiled by Saxo the Literate, the son of King Hodrodd of Sweden defeats the entire Norse pantheon all by himself, forcing them to flee for their lives. He even knocks the head off Thor's hammer with a single blow!
Jehovah lost a battle to people in a valley because they had iron chariots (maybe Jehovah is like the Banshee and reacts to iron the way Dracula reacts to garlic).
I'm late to the party time for a catch up post..
Quote from: RPGPundit;965451Do you want, even in high-level play, for D&D deities to have stats? Or do you think that this just reduces them to the level of monsters?
By default I say it depends A lot on the game but personally I say yes depending on the culture (and game) in question gods may very well not be all powerful. Actually I think the success of the 3 major religions blinds people to the potential of having minor gods in there fantasy. For example I have A setting where I have A godess of healing and kindness that runs her own temple and as such she runs her temple her self she has stats. In her own ways she shows godly powers healing wounds with herbs that could never be used that way by mortal man makes poultices that draw the worst infections and poison out of the blood. But if she had to fight A dragon she would be in a bad place even though she could put up A fight shes no 8 or 12 man adventuring party.
The big question for you pundits is do you have these gods running around interacting in the world like normal people the more of that they do the more you need stats at some point.
Quote from: jeff37923;965552This^^
For 3.x/Pathfinder, FFG came out with a short set of rules for Small Gods having a limited number of followers and granted abilities that has worked out pretty good for my own games.
Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;965547I would have said "NO" a few years ago but I thought Petty Gods handled it very well and made the idea cool.
Thanks for bringing this up I'd been using bedrock's sertorius and hacking it in to 3.x I'll need to check this out.
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;965579Heh. The original intent of "Gods, Demigods, and Heroes" was to (theoretically) show the "absurdity of a 45th level wizard, if Odin Allfather only has 300 hit points."
What's funny is that he
This promptly blew up in TSR's face; instead of "oooh, we should scale our campaign down," the vast majority of players treated the book as yet another monster manual.
GDG&H was the book that proved conclusively that Gygax had lost control of the game he published.
What's funny is that people think He had control over the game in the first place. What you need to remember as A creator of content especially gaming content is that after it is out in public it's not fully yours any more.
Because the community will make changes to it and adjust it to suit there needs and groups along with there own personal taste even though they may never publish A supplement for the game.
Quote from: JeremyR;965922Yes. I think people are too blinded by monotheism, of an all powerful god. and then just sort of retroactively apply that to the polytheistic gods they've heard of.
But in most cases gods were just powerful beings, not really any different than elves or giants or dragons, save that they resembled men and men worshiped them. If you read an encyclopedia of mythology, you'll see just how many gods there were. Most of them were local ones, gods of various places, ranging from rivers to forests to even streams and ponds. Strictly speaking, things like nymphs in Greek mythology were minor goddesses.
Reminds me of one of the Native American story's on how they got corn where the chiefs son went in to the forest and stayed there for several days with out eating and each day a warrior with long golden stalks came and wrestled with him every day and be for there last match the warrior told him that he was going to be killed in the match and to plant his body in a clearing and to tend to the grave like a field and there grew corn.
Quote from: S'mon;965965Diomedes beat Ares, Aeneas beat Aphrodite, both in the Iliad. As two of us mentioned upthread.
In the Old Testament, Jehovah wrestles Jacob on the road and has to use a dirty trick to win.
Interestingly I don't think the Norse myths have any legends of humans defeating gods, though gods are definitely threatened by mortals.
Well yes and no while I cant think of and specific examples of A god's life being in danger by A mortal man Odin's spear was split in two by A warrior in one of the longer tails. In another A boy Fathly (I hope I'm spelling that right) could run fast enough for Thor to take him as A friend and companion. And of coarse Balder was slain by an arrow made from plain old mistletoe though I will admit that arrow was fired by another god Loki had tricked.
Quote from: kosmos1214;966360Thanks for bringing this up I'd been using bedrock's sertorius and hacking it in to 3.x I'll need to check this out.
You can find an inexpensive version with the article Small Gods in it on Amazon.com at the following link.
https://www.amazon.com/Legends-Lairs-Mastercraft-Anthology-Various/dp/1589941225/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1496623122&sr=8-1&keywords=Legends+%26+Lairs+Mastercraft+anthology
Quote from: jeff37923;966363You can find an inexpensive version with the article Small Gods in it on Amazon.com at the following link.
https://www.amazon.com/Legends-Lairs-Mastercraft-Anthology-Various/dp/1589941225/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1496623122&sr=8-1&keywords=Legends+%26+Lairs+Mastercraft+anthology
thank you.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;965970Did anyone mention Primal Order yet?
I did. No one cares.
I think that if it's just some extraplanar-being pretending to be a god, then yes, you should stat them (because presumably you should be able to kill them like anything else).
On the other hand, actual Deities should not be statted, but that doesn't necessarily mean you can't kill them. You just can't kill them the way you'd kill an orc.
Quote from: RPGPundit;966854I think that if it's just some extraplanar-being pretending to be a god, then yes, you should stat them (because presumably you should be able to kill them like anything else).
On the other hand, actual Deities should not be statted, but that doesn't necessarily mean you can't kill them. You just can't kill them the way you'd kill an orc.
I agree. What are your thoughts on PC's achieving godhood? Should the opposition of other divine powers require stats? This might be beyond the scope of most D&D systems outside of OSR. Or do you allow such progression but handwave the conflict? (that's pretty much what I do - the gods work through minions because of mutually assured destruction. Or worse - loss of stature)
Quote from: tenbones;966938I agree. What are your thoughts on PC's achieving godhood? Should the opposition of other divine powers require stats? This might be beyond the scope of most D&D systems outside of OSR. Or do you allow such progression but handwave the conflict? (that's pretty much what I do - the gods work through minions because of mutually assured destruction. Or worse - loss of stature)
I think achieving godhood could be a quest for the top-level mortal PCs. Even there, though, opposing gods shouldn't be statted, since they're gods and the PCs are still mortals.
As for when they actually become gods, I'd say that at that point you either stop the campaign, or quit playing D&D and switch over to a Lords of Olympus campaign.
Gods with stats are not exactly gods, they look more like avatars to me or high level monsters (especially if we are talking about D&D). The moment you give them stats you are undermining their importance.
Maybe, but it is about the last thing you should stat for them.
Sure, it's possible that for the right set of assumptions about PC/Divine power, clashing with the gods is a perfectly appropriate thing to do.
But it's far less useful to running a typical campaign than details like what the gods' follower are, their history, powers and prayers, etc.