Quote from: Zirunel;965859But that's a different topic. Getting back to the Gods, no stat blocks for me please. In fact, I prefer them to be so aloof that it's uncertain whether they even exist.

My Wilderlands gods both have stats, can be fought, AND it's uncertain whether they exist.

Quote from: Longshadow;965845You can check out the pdf for free, and the book is just sold at cost.

As is Godbound, which I think is a much better book, I didn't care for Petty Gods but Godbound is so good I plan to spring for a hardcopy. Kevin Crawford has finally produced a game that maked demi-God level play work at the table. He's so good I'm surprised WoTC hasn't scooped him up for a project.

Heroes defeating or destroying gods is common enough in mythology and fantasy that I can't think of any reason NOT to include it as a possibility in a fantasy/mythical setting.

Yes. I think people are too blinded by monotheism, of an all powerful god. and then just sort of retroactively apply that to the polytheistic gods they've heard of.

But in most cases gods were just powerful beings, not really any different than elves or giants or dragons, save that they resembled men and men worshiped them. If you read an encyclopedia of mythology, you'll see just how many gods there were. Most of them were local ones, gods of various places, ranging from rivers to forests to even streams and ponds. Strictly speaking, things like nymphs in Greek mythology were minor goddesses.

I'm no expert in world mythology but I can't recall any Greek tales of anyone beating a God in battle. Mortals could outwit Gods but usually a severe punishment was in the cards after that.

Quote from: Voros;965960I'm no expert in world mythology but I can't recall any Greek tales of anyone beating a God in battle. Mortals could outwit Gods but usually a severe punishment was in the cards after that.

Diomedes beat Ares, Aeneas beat Aphrodite, both in the Iliad. As two of us mentioned upthread.

In the Old Testament, Jehovah wrestles Jacob on the road and has to use a dirty trick to win.

Interestingly I don't think the Norse myths have any legends of humans defeating gods, though gods are definitely threatened by mortals.

Did anyone mention Primal Order yet?

Seems to me that outside of D&D and missing-the-point literal material interpretations, practically all gods in all traditions are best understood as metaphors and not as superheros or boss monsters. When a mythic hero struggles with and possibly defeats a god or even a monster, it has a metaphorical level that is the point and reason for the story. Heracles is not about how there was once this really strong guy, boy was he strong. His ST was HIGH. So high he defeated these snakes as a baby, and this lion with super-high armor class... Same with Norse myths about heroes fighting giants - no they're not just an account of random fantasy combat - the giants' names mean things, and if you read it metaphorically there's a message which contains wisdom about the human condition. Oh, the hero's name translates as Mercy and the giant he slew's name translates as Ancestral Blood Feud? Was the story about the great skill rolls Mercy made? Is Ancestral Blood Feud now dead and so no longer in the campaign? Hmm.

Quote from: Elfdart;965917Heroes defeating or destroying gods is common enough in mythology and fantasy that I can't think of any reason NOT to include it as a possibility in a fantasy/mythical setting.

My thoughts exactly.

Quote from: Voros;965960I'm no expert in world mythology but I can't recall any Greek tales of anyone beating a God in battle. Mortals could outwit Gods but usually a severe punishment was in the cards after that.

There are lots of examples in the Iliad of heroes defeating gods in battle.  For example, Diomedes in one battle wounds Aphrodite which sends her back to Olympus, then nearly kills Apollo who begs for mercy, and then spears Ares, the god of war, in the stomach and kills him - though as an Olympian, Ares is immortal so he goes back to Olympus to brood in his anger and plot revenge.  That's just one scene. There are others that I can't recall.  I remember that Achilles, kills the unnamed god of the river Scamander, and this god does not reform or resurrect.

Quote from: Madprofessor;966023There are lots of examples in the Iliad of heroes defeating gods in battle.  For example, Diomedes in one battle wounds Aphrodite which sends her back to Olympus, then nearly kills Apollo who begs for mercy, and then spears Ares, the god of war, in the stomach and kills him - though as an Olympian, Ares is immortal so he goes back to Olympus to brood in his anger and plot revenge.  That's just one scene. There are others that I can't recall.  I remember that Achilles, kills the unnamed god of the river Scamander, and this god does not reform or resurrect.

Well, one thing to remember is that these things we call myths are usually a snapshot of the folklore of said ancient culture at the point and time when it was recorded (often by a single source or two). Undoubtedly sometimes when these stories were told, the gods could be killed, sometimes not, sometimes killed but reformed, etc.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;966026Well, one thing to remember is that these things we call myths are usually a snapshot of the folklore of said ancient culture at the point and time when it was recorded (often by a single source or two). Undoubtedly sometimes when these stories were told, the gods could be killed, sometimes not, sometimes killed but reformed, etc.

Certainly, but the moment that this strain of myth was recorded, that act has also codified the myth as canon for our culture.  Regardless, we do not need a mythological or historical precedent to fight gods in an rpg.  As I pointed out before, there are also tons of examples in contemporary literature and pop media where gods are mortal antagonists for heroes.  My point is that whether gods need game stats depends on what sort of fantasy world you create and what models you intend to follow.  In your campaign, are gods remote, mysterious, all-powerful and immortal?  Then you don't need stats for them - though you might need stats for their servitors or avatars.  Are they petty, meddling, and jealous, or simply alien beings or demons worshiped like gods?  If so, then stats could be useful, or at least interesting.

Quote from: RPGPundit;965451Do you want, even in high-level play, for D&D deities to have stats? Or do you think that this just reduces them to the level of monsters?

Everything should have stats. Even if it can't be killed, it still has a HP number.

Quote from: Madprofessor;966023There are lots of examples in the Iliad of heroes defeating gods in battle.  For example, Diomedes in one battle wounds Aphrodite which sends her back to Olympus, then nearly kills Apollo who begs for mercy, and then spears Ares, the god of war, in the stomach and kills him - though as an Olympian, Ares is immortal so he goes back to Olympus to brood in his anger and plot revenge.  That's just one scene. There are others that I can't recall.  I remember that Achilles, kills the unnamed god of the river Scamander, and this god does not reform or resurrect.

Cool, I haven't read the Illiad in the original but its on my shelf. That story of Ares is probably the inspiration for 2e's avatars.

Quote from: S'mon;965965Diomedes beat Ares, Aeneas beat Aphrodite, both in the Iliad. As two of us mentioned upthread.

In the Old Testament, Jehovah wrestles Jacob on the road and has to use a dirty trick to win.

Interestingly I don't think the Norse myths have any legends of humans defeating gods, though gods are definitely threatened by mortals.

 In Gesta Danorum, a collection of Norse Myths compiled by Saxo the Literate, the son of King Hodrodd of Sweden defeats the entire Norse pantheon all by himself, forcing them to flee for their lives. He even knocks the head off Thor's hammer with a single blow!

Jehovah lost a battle to people in a valley because they had iron chariots (maybe Jehovah is like the Banshee and reacts to iron the way Dracula reacts to garlic).