Greetings!
Throughout the years, in game books as well as in discussions, there's a distinct miliue paradigm presented of small villages, even the cities are relatively small, the society is primitive, the military is composed of untrained, dirty peasants and militia, led by a handful of noble knights; with a number of anachronistic traits and dynamics. All steeped in a European paint job. Nothing terribly wrong with all that, though such is often held up as some kind of mandatory standard.
I'm always amazed by other sources, though, from history.
The Song Empire, of ancient China, for example. The Song Empire *predates* much of the grubby European model of medievalism we are often presented with, essentially beginning around 960 AD, and enduring through 1279 AD.
The Song Empire had over one million soldiers in a professional army, led by highly trained professional officers. The soldiers, likewise, were highly trained, and elaborately equipped in armour and weaponry, of the most advanced styles and designs. Crossbowmen were trained and organized in huge numbers, and cavalry soldiers were routinely equipped with armour, and a wide variety of weaponry, including daggers, swords, halberds, spears and bows, as well as specially deigned "fire-lances" which allowed the cavalry to fire the lance with a blast of gunpowder, fire, and shrapnel against opponents. The Song Empire also developed special fixed-site and portable flame-throwers.
The Song Empire cities--dozens of them--were enormous, having hundreds of thousands of people, even over a million inhabitants in many of them. The northern capital, the city of Bianjing, was an enormous city. The illustrious and glorious capital city of the Song Empire, the city of Hangzhou was proclaimed to be the greatest city in the entire world. The northern half of the Song Empire had over 120 million people--this was determined by official Chinese census records, made at the time. Song Empire cities, such as Hangzhou, often had markets and squares in the city that featured restaurants, bathhouses, entertainment, that went on deep into the night, even some being used and operating 24 hours a day. Huge public festivals and street parties and fairs were held throughout the Song cities. Of course, while the Song Empire was incredibly urbanized and advanced, the Song also applied their advances to the world of agriculture as well, creating tools, techniques, and systems that created the most advanced and largest agricultural system in the world. Advanced food storage, advanced food distribution systems, advanced rice cultivation and crops, the stuff is just amazing.
The Song Empire is the first empire to have proper paper money officially issued as state currency. The first use of Gunpowder, and discerning True North with the deployment of a compass.
The Song Empire had a permanent, professional Navy, and an official policy of supporting vast, long range maritime trade missions to distant, foreign kingdoms. Huge trade fleets bringing foreign goods and resources back to China, and bringing fine Chinese finished goods and products to distant lands throughout Asia, India, the Middle East, Africa, with trade goods eventually reaching Europe as well. The Song Navy had advanced paddle-wheel driven ships! The padle-wheel driven warships were armed with traction trebuchet catapults which fired gunpowder-filled exploding bombs. There were Song Naval ships which could easily carry 1,000 soldiers inside them. In each individual ship.
Citizens of the empire gathered together to view public art galleries, with collections created and made, and sold all over the empire. Social and cultural clubs and organizations flourished throughout the empire. Wood-block and Moveable-Type Printing was invented, and soon a vast explosion of literature was created, marketed, and spread throughout society. Book stores, restaurants and fine dining was everywhere. There are even books of regional cuisines that were created during such times, and have been preserved and referenced to our own age. Giant astronomical clock towers were established, allowing the public to easily determine time. The Song Empire society had an official postal service, as well as an advanced social welfare system, which had orphanages, retirement homes, and public medical clinics, available to normal, ordinary citizens.
Technology, mathematics, science, art, and philosophy all greatly flourished, and advanced. Authors and scholars published articulate books on all of these subjects, which were then made available to millions of citizens throughout the empire. An elaborate system of Bureaucracy was established, with detailed bureaucratic civil service exams created to determine merit and advancement within the government. Entertainment of every kind was available, and highly professionalized and marketed, from literature, to theater, to a wide variety of performing arts. The Song Chinese also pioneered forensic medicine, and developed techniques where a person's death could often be determined if such was by muder, suicide, or accidental death.
The Song Empire also had advanced diplomatic systems, supporting numerous official ambassadors and embassies to foreign nations. The Song Empire even had an embassy in the Byzantine Empire, in Europe, with official ambassadors that worked with the Byzantine government on issues of politics and trade. Imagine the kinds of adventures that can be developed for a campaign with embassies, and official ambassadors traveling back and forth to different foreign nations. Very interesting possibilities!
All of this enormous, advanced urbanized culture, with every sophisticated and cultured advance, the height of technology, science, agriculture, and government, all presents a world that is far more modern, and hugely different from the typical grubby peasant militia society led by a slightly cleaner Knight we often see in so many campaigns. All of this wondrous advancement in culture, economy, and society before 1000 AD, or 1200 AD. The Song Empire is definitely inspiring, and totally amazing. It is an excellent example, however, that the campaign that we typically see doesn't have to be the brute primitive peasant miliue. The thing that just blows my mind, is that all of this vast advanced society was created by us, ordinary human beings, by 1200 AD.
Imagine what a society like the Song Empire could create if the society had all of the D&D magic available. BOOM!!!! Think about the mind-blowing society that would be!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
The Song Dynasty is a wonderful period to run games. I ran a campaign in a fantasy setting heavily inspired by the Song period and I am currently running one set in the Northern Song period proper (though it is still anachronism heavy because it is also shaw brothers inspired and I am letting in all that stuff). The other cool thing about it is how much available material there is on the song period. I have a great map of the area around Kaifeng, which depicts each of the major towns and indicates the towns level of wealth by the size of the circle denoting it (it is in a book called Commerce and Society in Sung China). I found another book on law and order, which explains in pretty good detail how Sheriffs operated and how many constables they had (with a handy formula for population size), and how Military Inspectors operated and how many soldiers they had. One of the great things about periods like this is how advanced the social institutions are. They even had a very effective mail system that could carry messages very quickly (look up Daks and you'll find all kinds of stuff).
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;1073691The Song Dynasty is a wonderful period to run games. I ran a campaign in a fantasy setting heavily inspired by the Song period and I am currently running one set in the Northern Song period proper (though it is still anachronism heavy because it is also shaw brothers inspired and I am letting in all that stuff). The other cool thing about it is how much available material there is on the song period. I have a great map of the area around Kaifeng, which depicts each of the major towns and indicates the towns level of wealth by the size of the circle denoting it (it is in a book called Commerce and Society in Sung China). I found another book on law and order, which explains in pretty good detail how Sheriffs operated and how many constables they had (with a handy formula for population size), and how Military Inspectors operated and how many soldiers they had. One of the great things about periods like this is how advanced the social institutions are. They even had a very effective mail system that could carry messages very quickly (look up Daks and you'll find all kinds of stuff).
Greetings!
Oh, damn Bedrock! I want to play in your Song Empire campaign! Brilliant, brilliant stuff! Sheriffs! Yeah, traveling Sheriffs that traveled the countryside! I'm amazed by how sophisticated the Song Empire system of Law and Justice was. Judges, evidence gathering, hell, they even had jails, prisons, and a system of expenses and fees for bringing cases to court and pursuing trials and such. The possibilities for a campaign are endless! Bedrock, is your Song Empire campaign for 5E? How is magic changing your campaign or otherwise impacting it?
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK;1073692Greetings!
Oh, damn Bedrock! I want to play in your Song Empire campaign! Brilliant, brilliant stuff! Sheriffs! Yeah, traveling Sheriffs that traveled the countryside! I'm amazed by how sophisticated the Song Empire system of Law and Justice was. Judges, evidence gathering, hell, they even had jails, prisons, and a system of expenses and fees for bringing cases to court and pursuing trials and such. The possibilities for a campaign are endless! Bedrock, is your Song Empire campaign for 5E? How is magic changing your campaign or otherwise impacting it?
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
The Song Fantasy campaign is for my Ogre Gate game, so it is a network system setting (which would probably be pretty tough to convert to 5E). The Song Empire campaign is using a new system I am co-creating, which is intended as a kind of rules light variation on the Ogre Gate system.
In my Song Empire campaign, magic is minimal. Basically what you get in wuxia films like Magic Blade, Reign of Assassins, Intimate Confessions of a Chinese Courtesan, and House of Flying Daggers. In my Song fantasy campaign, magic is much more prevalent and does have an impact on things. However I find this really just makes it feel like a campaign that expands across wuxia to things like Chinese Ghost Story or even Journey to the West (though the Journey to the West stuff would be at the really high levels of power). I should say though, most of the magic is tailor-made to the setting. A lot of the spells come out of descriptions of Daoist Rituals I got from different history books for example, or from Chinese movies and books (Strange Tales from the Chinese Studio by Pu Songling had a very big impact on the supernatural and magical elements).
In terms of D&D, I think it would be quite easy to do. I ran a lengthy series of Wuxia campaigns using 3E (mixing the oriental adventure books with a bunch of d20 boom books that touched on the topic). It worked really well. I included plenty of magic, but it was nice because we'd shift from a more grounded wuxia adventure about bandits at a temple, to exploration of an ancient city plagued by Toad Demons. LPJ Design has a wuxia book out called Xao (here: https://www.rpgnow.com/product/242959/Xao-Island-of-Iron-and-Silk-PFSRD?src=newest). It is pathfinder compatible.
I actually had a pretty good idea for running a Condor Heroes (which is Song Dynasty period) campaign using d20 system. I think with D&D, the way I'd do it, is have every martial style be a class, and allow limitless multi-classing, class dipping. In Condor Heroes they literally describe many of the martial techniques as going up to level ten. So you could take up to ten levels in Dragon and Elephant Wisdom Dexterity Technique, or you could take five levels in it, and take five levels in Dragon Subduing Palm. I think that class system would work very well but it would be a bit labor intensive to make all the styles in the jianghu.
When I read the novel Bride with White Hair, I took pretty extensive notes of all the techniques. And almost just put together a system around it for my personal campaign. I am still planning on doing that at some point, and I don't know if I will make a system fresh or do it using an existing system.
Quote from: SHARK;1073689Throughout the years, in game books as well as in discussions, there's a distinct miliue paradigm presented of small villages, even the cities are relatively small, the society is primitive, the military is composed of untrained, dirty peasants and militia, led by a handful of noble knights; with a number of anachronistic traits and dynamics. All steeped in a European paint job. Nothing terribly wrong with all that, though such is often held up as some kind of mandatory standard.
I'm always amazed by other sources, though, from history.
I've never set anything in Song Dynasty China, but I've had a number of fantasy campaigns set in different settings. I absolutely agree that the Tolkienesque medieval/anachronistic default is overused, given the huge range of possibilities in fantasy settings.
I played in a GURP Fantasy campaign where the PCs were crewing a magical airship, in the midst of a steampunk setting. I also just tried the Eberron setting for a one-shot adventure, which is similarly steampunk inspired. For East Asian inspired, I GMed a long FATE campaign set in an alternate 1860s Korea with domesticated dragons - based on the Temeraire novels. Plus I've played a fair bit of Amber, which is quite different spanning many worlds.
I like historical settings for games, but I usually try to have some kind of genre hook to make it more accessible to the players. Players often find an unfamiliar historical period bewildering - and they don't want to feel like they need to study just to play the game. I find if there are some familiar elements, it helps ease them into a setting. So, my 1860s Korea game incorporated a lot of pulp tropes, for example. (Plus references to the novels - which were world-spanning but didn't include Korea.)
I want to run a campaign set within, "Blazing Saddles".
There is a general lack of 'giant empire' fantasy settings, but (just like actual High Medieval settings) I think this is because the setting constrains PC action. There are exceptions, like Empire of the Petal Throne, but Tolkienesque settings are popular for the wide freedom of action they give PCs. I also like Ancient World City State type settings - Wilderlands and Thule, where you can have both powerful organised armies and lots of open wilderness.
Quote from: SHARK;1073689Greetings!
Throughout the years, in game books as well as in discussions, there's a distinct miliue paradigm presented of small villages, even the cities are relatively small, the society is primitive, the military is composed of untrained, dirty peasants and militia, led by a handful of noble knights; with a number of anachronistic traits and dynamics. All steeped in a European paint job. Nothing terribly wrong with all that, though such is often held up as some kind of mandatory standard.
I'm always amazed by other sources, though, from history.
The Song Empire, of ancient China, for example. The Song Empire *predates* much of the grubby European model of medievalism we are often presented with, essentially beginning around 960 AD, and enduring through 1279 AD.
The Song Empire had over one million soldiers in a professional army, led by highly trained professional officers. The soldiers, likewise, were highly trained, and elaborately equipped in armour and weaponry, of the most advanced styles and designs. Crossbowmen were trained and organized in huge numbers, and cavalry soldiers were routinely equipped with armour, and a wide variety of weaponry, including daggers, swords, halberds, spears and bows, as well as specially deigned "fire-lances" which allowed the cavalry to fire the lance with a blast of gunpowder, fire, and shrapnel against opponents. The Song Empire also developed special fixed-site and portable flame-throwers.
The Song Empire cities--dozens of them--were enormous, having hundreds of thousands of people, even over a million inhabitants in many of them. The northern capital, the city of Bianjing, was an enormous city. The illustrious and glorious capital city of the Song Empire, the city of Hangzhou was proclaimed to be the greatest city in the entire world. The northern half of the Song Empire had over 120 million people--this was determined by official Chinese census records, made at the time. Song Empire cities, such as Hangzhou, often had markets and squares in the city that featured restaurants, bathhouses, entertainment, that went on deep into the night, even some being used and operating 24 hours a day. Huge public festivals and street parties and fairs were held throughout the Song cities. Of course, while the Song Empire was incredibly urbanized and advanced, the Song also applied their advances to the world of agriculture as well, creating tools, techniques, and systems that created the most advanced and largest agricultural system in the world. Advanced food storage, advanced food distribution systems, advanced rice cultivation and crops, the stuff is just amazing.
The Song Empire is the first empire to have proper paper money officially issued as state currency. The first use of Gunpowder, and discerning True North with the deployment of a compass.
The Song Empire had a permanent, professional Navy, and an official policy of supporting vast, long range maritime trade missions to distant, foreign kingdoms. Huge trade fleets bringing foreign goods and resources back to China, and bringing fine Chinese finished goods and products to distant lands throughout Asia, India, the Middle East, Africa, with trade goods eventually reaching Europe as well. The Song Navy had advanced paddle-wheel driven ships! The padle-wheel driven warships were armed with traction trebuchet catapults which fired gunpowder-filled exploding bombs. There were Song Naval ships which could easily carry 1,000 soldiers inside them. In each individual ship.
Citizens of the empire gathered together to view public art galleries, with collections created and made, and sold all over the empire. Social and cultural clubs and organizations flourished throughout the empire. Wood-block and Moveable-Type Printing was invented, and soon a vast explosion of literature was created, marketed, and spread throughout society. Book stores, restaurants and fine dining was everywhere. There are even books of regional cuisines that were created during such times, and have been preserved and referenced to our own age. Giant astronomical clock towers were established, allowing the public to easily determine time. The Song Empire society had an official postal service, as well as an advanced social welfare system, which had orphanages, retirement homes, and public medical clinics, available to normal, ordinary citizens.
Technology, mathematics, science, art, and philosophy all greatly flourished, and advanced. Authors and scholars published articulate books on all of these subjects, which were then made available to millions of citizens throughout the empire. An elaborate system of Bureaucracy was established, with detailed bureaucratic civil service exams created to determine merit and advancement within the government. Entertainment of every kind was available, and highly professionalized and marketed, from literature, to theater, to a wide variety of performing arts. The Song Chinese also pioneered forensic medicine, and developed techniques where a person's death could often be determined if such was by muder, suicide, or accidental death.
The Song Empire also had advanced diplomatic systems, supporting numerous official ambassadors and embassies to foreign nations. The Song Empire even had an embassy in the Byzantine Empire, in Europe, with official ambassadors that worked with the Byzantine government on issues of politics and trade. Imagine the kinds of adventures that can be developed for a campaign with embassies, and official ambassadors traveling back and forth to different foreign nations. Very interesting possibilities!
All of this enormous, advanced urbanized culture, with every sophisticated and cultured advance, the height of technology, science, agriculture, and government, all presents a world that is far more modern, and hugely different from the typical grubby peasant militia society led by a slightly cleaner Knight we often see in so many campaigns. All of this wondrous advancement in culture, economy, and society before 1000 AD, or 1200 AD. The Song Empire is definitely inspiring, and totally amazing. It is an excellent example, however, that the campaign that we typically see doesn't have to be the brute primitive peasant miliue. The thing that just blows my mind, is that all of this vast advanced society was created by us, ordinary human beings, by 1200 AD.
Imagine what a society like the Song Empire could create if the society had all of the D&D magic available. BOOM!!!! Think about the mind-blowing society that would be!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
There is definitely a lot of potential in advanced pre-modern societies as the basis for a D&D setting such as Imperial Rome, Feudal Japan (either the Sengoku or Edo periods) or the Song Dynasty, and all of those sources would be a nice change of pace from the standard Tolkien-esque medieval fantasy or Conan-esque Swords & Sorcery.
Quote from: S'mon;1073740There is a general lack of 'giant empire' fantasy settings, but (just like actual High Medieval settings) I think this is because the setting constrains PC action. There are exceptions, like Empire of the Petal Throne, but Tolkienesque settings are popular for the wide freedom of action they give PCs. I also like Ancient World City State type settings - Wilderlands and Thule, where you can have both powerful organised armies and lots of open wilderness.
I find these kinds of settings pretty workable. I think it is a double edged sword at times. But even D&D veers pretty far from gritty medieval out of convenience. In terms of freedom that is really going to depend on how heavily you lean on the legal institutions and government. Just like in Vampire, that can become a campaign of murder hobos driving around the country and killing (even though if you really thought through all the news coverage, the law enforcement, the vampire politics, it would be more constrained). Also, it isn't like people in medieval Europe had total freedom to do what they want. D&D tends to gloss over manorialism and feudalism. The feudal structure really isn't all that different from the client and patron relationship you had in the Roman Empire. Having a powerful empire still allows for frontier, wilderness, and pocket of chaos. It just means there is also ample room for city adventures, intrigue, etc. With Song Dynasty the sheer amount of vibrant institutions, the prevalence of restaurants, inns, teahouses, escort companies, etc, they just afford all kinds of good RPG adventuring opportunity. Escort companies are a great hook for adventure. I use them all the time.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;1073954I find these kinds of settings pretty workable. I think it is a double edged sword at times. But even D&D veers pretty far from gritty medieval out of convenience. In terms of freedom that is really going to depend on how heavily you lean on the legal institutions and government. Just like in Vampire, that can become a campaign of murder hobos driving around the country and killing (even though if you really thought through all the news coverage, the law enforcement, the vampire politics, it would be more constrained). Also, it isn't like people in medieval Europe had total freedom to do what they want. D&D tends to gloss over manorialism and feudalism. The feudal structure really isn't all that different from the client and patron relationship you had in the Roman Empire. Having a powerful empire still allows for frontier, wilderness, and pocket of chaos. It just means there is also ample room for city adventures, intrigue, etc. With Song Dynasty the sheer amount of vibrant institutions, the prevalence of restaurants, inns, teahouses, escort companies, etc, they just afford all kinds of good RPG adventuring opportunity. Escort companies are a great hook for adventure. I use them all the time.
Greetings!
You know, Bedrock, that's a very good point. In my own campaign world, I have had several vast, powerful empires, as well as huge areas of savage wilderness. It has never constrained my players or the miliue itself. In fact, I think having an enormous empire like the Song Empire is awesome, because it has room for all of the alleged "anachronisms."
I was watching one video about the Song Empire, with Michael Woods. His descriptions painted a city and culture that is perhaps in every way fully modern, without advanced transport, advanced power or communications. Pre-modern, as Sammy put it.
Art, culture, hotels, restaurants, 24-hour services, police, crime, gangs, trade caravans, corporations, security companies, sea trade, caravan trade, diplomatic embassies, sophisticated military, paved roads, sewage, plumbing, bathhouses, shopping bazaars, apartment buildings, rich areas, gated garden-like communities, ghettoes, art galleries, libraries, museums, forensic research, court systems, prisons, grocery stores, secret cults, numerous religions, languages, philosophies, martial arts, bureaucracies, banking, sophisticated financial system, a Food/Cuisine world, fashion world, regional fashions, cosmetics, cuisine, music and other art.
Aside from a very few things, they were just like we are. That advancement opens up all kinds of different sorts of adventures and campaigns you can run, as you mentioned well, Bedrock. At the same time, you can have barbarians, criminals, epic journeys, mysteries, tombs, ruins, strange civilizations, weird cults, barbarian hordes, and wilderness all at the frontiers.
Fantastic stuff!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK;1073967Greetings!
You know, Bedrock, that's a very good point. In my own campaign world, I have had several vast, powerful empires, as well as huge areas of savage wilderness. It has never constrained my players or the miliue itself. In fact, I think having an enormous empire like the Song Empire is awesome, because it has room for all of the alleged "anachronisms."
I was watching one video about the Song Empire, with Michael Woods. His descriptions painted a city and culture that is perhaps in every way fully modern, without advanced transport, advanced power or communications. Pre-modern, as Sammy put it.
Art, culture, hotels, restaurants, 24-hour services, police, crime, gangs, trade caravans, corporations, security companies, sea trade, caravan trade, diplomatic embassies, sophisticated military, paved roads, sewage, plumbing, bathhouses, shopping bazaars, apartment buildings, rich areas, gated garden-like communities, ghettoes, art galleries, libraries, museums, forensic research, court systems, prisons, grocery stores, secret cults, numerous religions, languages, philosophies, martial arts, bureaucracies, banking, sophisticated financial system, a Food/Cuisine world, fashion world, regional fashions, cosmetics, cuisine, music and other art.
Aside from a very few things, they were just like we are. That advancement opens up all kinds of different sorts of adventures and campaigns you can run, as you mentioned well, Bedrock. At the same time, you can have barbarians, criminals, epic journeys, mysteries, tombs, ruins, strange civilizations, weird cults, barbarian hordes, and wilderness all at the frontiers.
Fantastic stuff!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
If you want to see that kind of potential in action check out The Four trilogy by Gordon Chan. It is set during the Song.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;1073968If you want to see that kind of potential in action check out The Four trilogy by Gordon Chan. It is set during the Song.
Greetings!
"The Four" trilogy by Gordon Chan, huh? Interesting. What did you like about the books, Bedrock?
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK;1074924Greetings!
"The Four" trilogy by Gordon Chan, huh? Interesting. What did you like about the books, Bedrock?
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
It is a film trilogy (but it is, I believed based on the Four Constables Chinese graphic novel). The movie sort of combines wuxia with stuff that feels drawn out of the X-men movies. Here is the trailer for the first one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G82CrR0xHZw
There are also drama series based on the same material. The reason I suggested it though is it is Song dynasty and very much easy to game (because it is about secret agencies operating as teams in the Imperial Bureaucracy).