Quote from: Piestrio;636083I'm beginning the think the whole "You don't need to be ashamed of what you like! Let your geek flag fly!" might have been a bad idea.

It just sent a message to all the creepers that they could come join our parade.

It seems to be happening with more and more fandoms. Furries, Anime, Ponies, etc...

Yeah, the unquestioning acceptance of creepers as fellow nerds does not help. I think it damages our hobby.

I'm going to spin this off into another thread.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;636082The answer is not to just ignore it.  For fuck's sake people.  At what low point have you sunk when child sexploitation just doesn't matter?  I don't care if it doesn't happen at my table.  Someone who gets their rocks off roleplaying out scenarios where children are sexually assaulted is not an "It's OK as long as it's private" sort of thing.  It's a trait of a fucked up human being that needs to be called out at every turn.

Quote from: Piestrio;636099You really don't seem to understand.

I, and I'd hazard most normal people, don't want ANYTHING AT ALL to do with child sexploitation to be ANY PART of any entertainment product. EVER.

"doesn't necessarily lead to sex", "optional", "option", "can be glossed over" are not words that suddenly make child porn a-okay.

Saying you can just "ignore the pre-teen sexual part, it's totally optional" is several levels of fucked up.

I stand behind these statements with solidarity and am looking over the line in the sand at pervert apologists on the other side of the line.

Quote from: Drohem;636106I stand behind these statements with solidarity and am looking over the line in the sand at pervert apologists on the other side of the line.

I am not an apologist for any of them or what they do. Once I was a crime beat reporter and sex offenders and the damage they do was part of the job. I hated it.

However, internet discussions of sex - and RPG discussions of the same - inevitably go this way. It is like a sexual version of Godwin's Law, with Maid or FATAL standing in for the Nazis.

Quote from: GrumpyReviews;636116However, internet discussions of sex - and RPG discussions of the same - inevitably go this way. It is like a sexual version of Godwin's Law, with Maid or FATAL standing in for the Nazis.

Not in my experience. Only when people are saying you can "just ignore the child sex parts" does this happen.

Sadly it seems like a whole lot of nerds are more than happy to condone and defend this sort of crap.

Quote from: jhkimIncidentally, there were no under-age characters in the two games I played. We chose the ages of our characters, which I believe is strictly by the rules. So while I agree that the book content is creepy, I don't think the same of all players of it.

Quote from: The Yann Waters;636093Right. The names and the ages are the only details which are never rolled for maid PCs: the players always decide those, and it wouldn't make sense for, say, a chainsmoking CIA agent from the random charts to be a preteen. The youngest maid I've seen in actual play was sixteen.

Just to be clear - I am not agreeing at all with Yann Waters here.  I was making a minor factual correction that the PC ages aren't hard-coded into the rules as Sacrosanct implies below.  That doesn't change the fact that the examples, illustrations, and tone of the game is absolutely creepy - and I think it should be socially condemned rather than being tolerated or ignored.  

Quote from: Sacrosanct;635958If you have to ignore or change the rules of a game to not make it about child sexploitation, than it's a fucked up game.  How can this not be obvious?

Oh wait, you've shown yourself to be a clear apologist for child sexploitation.  I can only hope that it's an internal fuckery in your head, and I hope to God that you haven't taken similar attitudes with children in real life.

I agree that the game is fucked up.  On the other hand, I know personally outside the Internet some people who play the game and have defended it.  I don't think they are monsters and wouldn't leap to any conclusions about their real life behavior.  That doesn't change that they're wrong.

Quote from: jhkim;636135Just to be clear - I am not agreeing at all with Yann Waters here.  I was making a minor factual correction that the PC ages aren't hard-coded into the rules as Sacrosanct implies below.  
.

Do you even read things before you reply any more?

Quote from: meThis doesn't help your case at all. Even if the players all chose adults, they still run into scenarios where they have to seduce young children. In what way is "A group of adult women (players) in a game full of sexual innuendos and scenarios needing to seduce a 13 year old boy." acceptable?

What part of that is me implying that the PC ages are hardcoded?  What I have said is that NPCs can, and will unless you ignore table results, be children.  And honestly, that almost makes it worse when the PCs are all adults needing to seduce a 13 year old boy.

Quote from: Piestrio;636099You really don't seem to understand.

I, and I'd hazard most normal people, don't want ANYTHING AT ALL to do with child sexploitation to be ANY PART of any entertainment product. EVER.

"doesn't necessarily lead to sex", "optional", "option", "can be glossed over" are not words that suddenly make child porn a-okay.

Saying you can just "ignore the pre-teen sexual part, it's totally optional" is several levels of fucked up.

Child porn isn't justifiable. However, gaming material has certainly dealt with such matters without raising any great outcry: for example, consider With a Long Spoon for Over the Edge.

But more to the point, mentioning children and sexuality in the same volume doesn't mean that the two will inevitably be connected. In this case, even treating seduction in a more explicit fashion and including a random underage character somewhere in the mansion doesn't somehow spontaneously link those two. Still, while Maid obviously tried to cover both the "child-like maid" character trope (or "young master" for that matter) and the naughtier aspects from the source material, as part of presenting any kind of anime maids, putting more distance between them couldn't have hurt, as these periodic arguments demonstrate. Adding a few years to various characters statted out in the book might have been a decent start.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;636102I'm here to tell you that making a 10 year old strip naked and suggestively ride a broomstick is in fact sexual assault.

A good thing, then, that no matter how many times you keep repeating this little claim, the simple fact of the matter is that Kana wasn't naked while sweeping.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;636102Is it not entirely possible, using RAW and not ignoring or changing any of them, to have the players in a situation where they have to, or are highly encouraged to from a mechanical sense, to seduce a young male child master?

In the same way that you could contrive a similar scene for any other RPG, yes. I can't think of many games where an unpleasant GM couldn't spring a scene like that on the PCs.

But first of all, those charts for randomly generating a master are from a later supplement and optional, and with the scenario-based playstyle, the master is whatever the GM deems appropriate for the scenario anyway: so there's never a "young male child master" in play unless the group deliberately put him there. Second, the seduction rules are also from a later supplement and optional, and more accurately relate to establishing relationships through "charm" than "sex". They even work on beings that aren't anatomically capable of sexual activities. And third, "Favour for Getting Physical" is specifically a "Let's Not Go There" option, as well.

RAW doesn't mean throwing together every potentially contradictory option that you can find. If you can't play through, say, "Happy Birthday!" without starting to think about ways to have sex with the master, then sorry, the problem isn't with the scenario.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;636102Even if the players all chose adults, they still run into scenarios where they have to seduce young children.  In what way is "A group of adult women (players) in a game full of sexual innuendos and scenarios needing to seduce a 13 year old boy." acceptable?

Again, the acceptability depends on what exactly the "seduction" involves. But keep in mind, that bit about "running into scenarios where they have to seduce young children" is still a non sequitur. That never happens unless the players make it so.

(The easiest solution? Don't play with creeps.)

Quote from: jeff37923;635923You know, everything I have written has explicitly said the following - "What you do in private is none of my business, but it becomes my business when it is done in public and claims to represent my hobby."

So does it matter to you if Maid, the Sexploitation is played in public and publicly proclaimed to be representative of the hobby?

I would not want to be associated with anyone involved with underage anything.

Quote from: The Yann Waters;636139A good thing, then, that no matter how many times you keep repeating this little claim, the simple fact of the matter is that Kana wasn't naked while sweeping.

Jesus fucking christ.

I'm beginning to suspect you DO understand and are just a fucking perv yourself.

Get help.

Quote from: Bill;636146I would not want to be associated with anyone involved with underage anything.

Bingo.

It's a pretty fucking low bar, "Hey, I know, let's not have game products that depict young children in sexualized situations" but god damned if this fucking hobby hasn't managed to squirm right under it

Quote from: Piestrio;636151Bingo.

It's a pretty fucking low bar, "Hey, I know, let's not have game products that depict young children in sexualized situations" but god damned if this fucking hobby hasn't managed to squirm right under it

How do you make that happen without giving these products attention that you don't want them to have?  I don't think I'd even heard of Maid until this thread, or maybe the Desborough one.

Quote from: Alathon;636152How do you make that happen without giving these products attention that you don't want them to have?  I don't think I'd even heard of Maid until this thread, or maybe the Desborough one.

I'm pretty disgusted that it apparently even needs to be discussed in the first place.

Quote from: Alathon;636152How do you make that happen without giving these products attention that you don't want them to have?  I don't think I'd even heard of Maid until this thread, or maybe the Desborough one.

It comes up periodically, usually in reference to a thread over at TBP.

Quote from: GrumpyReviews;636116I am not an apologist for any of them or what they do. Once I was a crime beat reporter and sex offenders and the damage they do was part of the job. I hated it.

Good, then step on over to this side of the line with me and the others.

Quote from: GrumpyReviews;636116However, internet discussions of sex - and RPG discussions of the same - inevitably go this way. It is like a sexual version of Godwin's Law, with Maid or FATAL standing in for the Nazis.

Rightly so, there can be no equivocation when it comes to pedophilia and where we stand on it.

Quote from: Piestrio;636156I'm pretty disgusted that it apparently even needs to be discussed in the first place.

I liked this thread better when it was strictly anecdotes from more or less normal people.  But we had to have fifty fucking posts of advertisements for that game instead.  What's that gained us other than a whole lot of justifications that don't pass the sniff test?  Where's our achievable victory condition in all this?