You are gross and I think less of you everytime you post.

Quote from: mcbobbo;636197I view part of that good behavior to be doing the right thing when called upon to do so, even when inconvenient or uncomfortable.  I believe rejecting child abuse is one of those right things to do, RPG or not.

I agree.  But nobody in this thread is rejecting child abuse (though I can see why they might think they are).  Talking about the game in the context of gamers and RPGs simply cements that this is an RPG in the mind of gamers.  A headline like 'majority of gamers reject child abuse' is actually bad for our hobby.  Not as bad as 'majority of gamers approve of child abuse', but the first headline implies that the subject might be surprising, or that the minority view is pretty common.  Take the headline 'majority of Muslims disapprove of terror attacks' - it's not good to have the word Muslim and Terror Attack in the same headline, regardless of context.  The same is true with gamers and pedophiles.  By engaging, you lead credence to the theory that this is widespread enough issue to deserve engagement.  And that MIGHT be good if you had any chance of success...  But what is success?  Saying 'I'm on the side that is against pedophilia?'  

I think we're all on that side.  I know I am.  

Quote from: Sacrosanct;636214Here are the main characters from 2 of the 5 free scenarios.  But hey, just because scenarios like this exist, and are officially sanctioned by the authors, doesn't mean child sexploitation happens at all...:rolleyes:

Norrie (14 year old girl)
Ein (16 year old boy)

Late at night you discover Norrie in her bed, moaning
"No . . . I want to be with . . ." Was she going to call
someone's name?

"Today is your lucky day!" Ein gives into his urges and
forces himself on one of the maids



Kira-15 year old boy
Haru- 19 year old boy

On the first night Haru slipped into Kira-sama's room and got
intimate with him, so that they've now seduced each other.

I'm not trying to defend Maid (which I've never played and don't intend to).  Please recognize, however, that in Japan, the age of consent is 13!!!!  That seems pretty abhorrent to me.  But if the game was released for the Japanese market and cultural norms make that acceptable (outside of force, intimidation or coercion), I'm not going to automatically condemn it.  If I were a statesman, I'd recommend that they review that policy very carefully - I don't know any 13 years old enough that are mature enough to handle a sexual relationship whether with another teenager or an adult (especially not an adult!).  But if the game really is a translation of a game that exists in a different culture, even if it is OBJECTIVELY MORALLY REPREHENSIBLE, you've got a hard sell to make a moral panic.  Moral Relativism is rampant in the United States, especially among younger populations.  

Given the proposed defense that 'seduction' is a general name for 'charm' combined with the idea that stories and literary sources can deal with dark themes (I gave up on Game of Thrones, but Child Rape features pretty prominently), a game can include unpleasant elements without necessarily PROMOTING them.  To argue that this game necessarily promotes those values, especially in real life, seems a stretch.  

Don't play the game.  Don't associate with people that you know that play the game.  And stop promoting the game by vociferously attacking it - you simply draw attention to the game, creating the opposite of your intention.  

If you're interested in convincing non-gamers that 'real' gamers aren't interested in games like Maid, you'd be best off making that point in a forum that includes non-gamers.  Since your audience is all fellow-gamers, stop bringing it to their attention.  You're advertising (via word of mouth), and possibly encouraging elements of your hobby to 'fly that flag'.  

Hell, if Stormbringer were to jump in this thread saying 'nobody should play this game', I'd be tempted to for the sole purpose of spiting him.  I like to disagree with Stormbringer on principle, you know.  (Though Storm, don't feel compelled - I've already made it clear that I have no interest in the game).

Quote from: deadDMwalking;636226But if the game really is a translation of a game that exists in a different culture, even if it is OBJECTIVELY MORALLY REPREHENSIBLE, you've got a hard sell to make a moral panic.  Moral Relativism is rampant in the United States, especially among younger populations.

To quote the translator's afterword:

"Maid RPG is rooted in the maid fetish of Japanese otaku culture, and otaku culture has this powerful transgressive side. In a sense, the fact that this game can make a lot of people uncomfortable means it's living up to its premise. In the replays included, the players have their characters get into all kinds of inappropriate romantic entanglements, and girl-on-girl action is just the tip of the iceberg. Although to someone who knows the Japanese version of the tabletop RPG hobby well enough it shows some of the distinctive features of that style, overall it's far from typical. There may well be vending machines that dispense panties in Japan, but the other 99.9% of them are for beverages. In short, it's not just you. Maid RPG is weird in Japan too."

Quote from: deadDMwalking;636226Please recognize, however, that in Japan, the age of consent is 13!!!!

2 things.  Firstly, there have been laws in place that override that age of consent, such as:

QuoteArticle 34 of the Child Welfare Law
" Any person shall not do any of the following acts : …(6) act of inducing a minor to be engaged in
sexual activities … "
Inducing a minor who is less than eighteen (18) to be engaged in sexual activities is subject to
punishment under the Child Welfare Law. According to Japanese Court cases, " inducing a minor to
be engaged in sexual activities means an act of working on a minor to have intercourse or analogous
conducts ( including oral and anal sex) with him or her, or with someone else by exering influence on
the minor virually.

And secondly, even if 13 was the "OK Age folks!", as we've been repeatedly pointing out, just because it happens in Japan is not an excuse for people in a western culture to think it's OK.  It's OK to murder young girls in certain Middle Eastern countries for being raped, but that in no way means that role playing out scenarios where you're raping and murdering little girls because they "wronged your honor" or whatever is OK.

This is not that difficult people.

QuoteGiven the proposed defense that 'seduction' is a general name for 'charm' combined with the idea that stories and literary sources can deal with dark themes (I gave up on Game of Thrones, but Child Rape features pretty prominently), a game can include unpleasant elements without necessarily PROMOTING them. To argue that this game necessarily promotes those values, especially in real life, seems a stretch.

Dude, it says right there in black and white that they were intimate.  How much clearer can the use of the word "seduce" mean?  And again that is the example, the only example in that chapter on how the game is played.  This is not a plot device.

Jesus, you're starting to sound an awful lot like Grimgent in the level of bending over backwards to defends this vile shit.

Quote from: Alathon;636220I'm not kidding when I say that's some amazing free advertisement you just did there, Sacrosanct.

For who?  That shit up there is pretty fucking disgusting.  Do you really think more people will buy the game now instead being turned off by complicit attitude towards child sexploitation?

If that's the case, then there are a lot more fucked up people in our hobby than I thought.

I think its been shown without doubt that Miad is a very pervvy game.

That said, the crux of most of the debate on this thread seems to be "I don't want this game associated with the RPG hobby because that implies an association to myself"

which is a sentiment I have a very hard time taking seriously because, quite simply, I don't give a crap what people think of the hobby. People are morons. I have no respect for their opinion at all. Its not how I define my sense of self worth. And I certainly don't look ta RPGs as a part of my identity. I was not deterred one iota from playing RPGs when the masses thought RPGs were occult indoctrination devices that corrupted youth and caused suicides. I have not been deterred as public opinion has switched to viewing RPGs as the pass-time of basement dwelling socially inept nerds. If , by xsome bizarre twist of fate (and lets be honest, thats what it would take), the public masses began to identify roleplayers with some game besides D&D, and by some extremely unlikely occurance that game was something like Maid, then I still wouldn't give a crap and continue to play what I like.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;636241It's OK to murder young girls in certain Middle Eastern countries for being raped, but that in no way means that role playing out scenarios where you're raping and murdering little girls because they "wronged your honor" or whatever is OK.

This is where a fine line needs to be drawn.  The fact that a game deals with mature themes doesn't necessarily make the game bad/wrong/fun.  If you're playing a modern game set in Afghanistan and you're taking on a character with a different perspective than you have in real life, it doesn't mean that you're automatically a bad person.  Gaming can be used to explore some pretty traumatic events in a relatively 'safe' environment - sometimes it's used by licensed therapists for dealing with PTSD and such.  

If you play a fantasy game and you take the side of the villains and burn a town to the ground, it can be fun.  It's not for me, but I'm not going to say that it's abhorrent.  It's a game.  Presumably the players that do that in a game aren't inclined or interested in doing so in real life.  

If a player is fulfilling sexual fantasies with the RPG, that's pretty disgusting and not something I'd want to be part of.  Outside of that, pretty much anything is fair game as long as it makes sense for the setting and the participants.

My games are pretty close to a PG-13 at their most grim.  The death or suffering of children is pretty much not going to be featured in my games, even if it makes sense - at least not in a major way.  Sometimes, the PCs might meet an orphan, but it's more Indiana Jone's sidekick Short Round than a teenager turning tricks on the corner to get enough money to eat.  That's me, though.  If you have teen prostitutes in your games, that's not necessarily wrong - that's reality.  I favor escapist fantasy, but let's recognize that Gaming is a 'big tent' - and since you can write a story that has bad things happen (like Game of Thrones) you can play an RPG where bad things happen (like Game of Thrones) without being a sick fuck.  

Now, I don't disagree that a game like Maid probably has a higher percentage of sick fucks playing than other games.  And it can be a bad/unpleasant game.  But giving it any attention at all just encourages it to propagate.  No exposure = lower sales.  Lower sales = fewer similar releases.  Fewer similar releases = companies like this going out of business.  Ignoring it leads to it going away.  Paying attention to it encourages it's existence.  It's like feeding the trolls.  Don't do it.  

Quote from: TristramEvans;636244I think its been shown without doubt that Miad is a very pervvy game.

That said, the crux of most of the debate on this thread seems to be "I don't want this game associated with the RPG hobby because that implies an association to myself"

Regardless of opinion of 'people', I do think trying to convince 'the world' that gamers who like 'Maid' are not like the gamers who like D&D is a pointless exercise.  People who aren't into RPGs aren't familiar enough with the different games to even have registered a tiny niche game like Maid.  The number of people who recognize Dungeons & Dragons is distressingly small, especially compared to games like 'World of Warcraft'.  A fraction of a fraction could even grasp the need for a distinction because people DON'T associate RPGs with games like Maid.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;636226I'm not trying to defend Maid (which I've never played and don't intend to).  Please recognize, however, that in Japan, the age of consent is 13!!!!

One part of Japan's federal penal code refers to the age of 13, and its sat there since WWII. There is also the Child Welfare Act that protects children from corrupting influences, and that has default definitions of age for specific purposes (marriage, etc) - but all definitions are higher than 13.

However prefectural law in this case overrides that code, most cases to the age of 16 (girls) or 18 (boys).

Governmental change is extremely slow in Japan, for a variety of reasons. Japanese people are not happy with it - many are resigned to it.

Child sexploitation should never be ignored.  That's how these sick fucks got this far in the first place.


The very fact that so many people are OK with people rolepaying out child sex scenarios as long as it's not in the open or with "real kids" is infuriating as much as it's depressing.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;636241Dude, it says right there in black and white that they were intimate.  How much clearer can the use of the word "seduce" mean?  And again that is the example, the only example in that chapter on how the game is played.  This is not a plot device.
.

I'm pretty sure you missed what he was saying, which was that because those elements exist in the game doesn't mean they are influencing real life behaviour. I don't think anyones arguing that isnt how the game is played.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;636255Child sexploitation should never be ignored.  That's how these sick fucks got this far in the first place.

The very fact that so many people are OK with people rolepaying out child sex scenarios as long as it's not in the open or with "real kids" is infuriating as much as it's depressing.

Because roleplaying isnt real. Jesus. If one cant understand that, then they really should stay the hell away from RPGs and seek some professional help. and for the love of god stay away from steam tunnels.

Yeah, its a sick and depraved fantasy I want nothing to do with, but we're not talking about actual acts. No crimes are being committed, no children are being exploited, nothing is happening outside of a few people's imaginations.

Which is why I cant muster up any real outrage here.

Skarka's Law in progress.

Of course, more amusingly, Skarka has recently been using his own law, but hey.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;636255Child sexploitation should never be ignored.  That's how these sick fucks got this far in the first place.


The very fact that so many people are OK with people rolepaying out child sex scenarios as long as it's not in the open or with "real kids" is infuriating as much as it's depressing.

How do you stop people from imagining?

Quote from: TristramEvans;636275Because roleplaying isnt real. Jesus. If one cant understand that, then they really should stay the hell away from RPGs and seek some professional help. and for the love of god stay away from steam tunnels.

Yeah, its a sick and depraved fantasy I want nothing to do with, but we're not talking about actual acts. No crimes are being committed, no children are being exploited, nothing is happening outside of a few people's imaginations.

Which is why I cant muster up any real outrage here.

Question.  Are you perfectly OK with realistic CGI child porn?  I mean, no real kids are getting hurt right?  So it should be just as accessible as regular porn, right?

Quote from: Nexus;636286How do you stop people from imagining?

You can't stop people from imagining, but that was never the goal, right?  At least I never claimed as such.  Be we can stop people from thinking that roleplaying child sexual assault is OK and we can help stop them from creating games to cater to that depravity.