Quote from: Piestrio;636149I'm beginning to suspect you DO understand and are just a fucking perv yourself.

It's somewhat creepy that Kana's player chose to go with a transparent uniform, yes, even if it still has regular clothes underneath. And yes, tricking Kana with the broom was poor behaviour on the part of Rie's player. But that doesn't excuse repeatedly mangling up the story of what actually happened in the replay in the interest of spreading misinformation. I'm pretty sure that because of the recent Something Awful article, there are people out there who believe that Maid includes a Stress Explosion for pooping yourself to death, too.

Quote from: The Yann Waters;636166It's somewhat creepy that Kana's player chose to go with a transparent uniform, yes, even if it still has regular clothes underneath. And yes, tricking Kana with the broom was poor behaviour on the part of Rie's player. But that doesn't excuse repeatedly mangling up the story of what actually happened in the replay in the interest of spreading misinformation. I'm pretty sure that because of the recent Something Awful article, there are people out there who believe that Maid includes a Stress Explosion for pooping yourself to death, too.

"Somewhat creepy" I like that.

Yeah, it was somewhat creepy to do that in a game.

And then the author was "somewhat creepy" to write it up.

And then the translator was "somewhat creepy" to bring it over here.

And then the publisher was "somewhat creepy" to print it.

And stores are "somewhat creepy" to stock it.

And gamers are "somewhat creepy" to buy it.

And YOU are "somewhat creepy" to defend it.

Quote from: The Yann Waters;636166It's somewhat creepy that Kana's player chose to go with a transparent uniform, yes, even if it still has regular clothes underneath. And yes, tricking Kana with the broom was poor behaviour on the part of Rie's player. But that doesn't excuse repeatedly mangling up the story of what actually happened in the replay in the interest of spreading misinformation.

Dude, just stop and shift your perspective for a second.  Imagine 'Kana' is a real kid, and 'Rie' is her parent.  Imagine them explaining this event in court.  Is 'Rie' going to go to jail?  Now, stepping back from that, imagine 'Kana' is a real kid and 'Rie' is describing these situations to her in a chat room.  Same question.

It really is a simple-enough test.

Perhaps there are socioligical lessons to be learned about why we're more okay with killing baby kobolds than we are with 'humiliating' naked children with a broom stick, but the difference is clear and present.  If you're not aware of it, you're simply not paying attention.  And I'd add that if your kobold-baby-killing were detailed as an example of how to play the game (instead of just an oversight), you'd be in pretty morally murky water there, too.

While I support free speech, there are reasonable limits to which I adhere.  Put me on the intolerant side of the sand-line, please.

Quote from: Piestrio;636169Yeah, it was somewhat creepy to do that in a game.

It's the clothing underneath that matters. If we were talking about, for instance, clear plastic over bare skin, then yes, that would be pure fetish gear. But that's not the case here.

Besides, I grew up in the Finnish sauna culture. Nudity in itself doesn't automatically have sexual associations for me, and when it does, that may not necessarily be so noteworthy. Why do you think that, say, the Sex and the City movies are rated PG-13 over here?

Quote from: mcbobbo;636172Dude, just stop and shift your perspective for a second.  Imagine 'Kana' is a real kid, and 'Rie' is her parent.  Imagine them explaining this event in court.  Is 'Rie' going to go to jail?  Now, stepping back from that, imagine 'Kana' is a real kid and 'Rie' is describing these situations to her in a chat room.  Same question.

It really is a simple-enough test.

It's definitely the sort of thing that if I, as a teacher, encountered I would report to the state.

If students/parents were talking about it or it came up in writing somewhere I'd absolutely report it.

In fact if I found a copy of "Maid" on a student I'd very likely report it.

Keeping in mind that as a teacher I am legally required to report any suspicion of child abuse and children and adults creating and consuming "entertainment" depicting child abuse is a big red flag.

Quote from: The Yann Waters;636166It's somewhat creepy that Kana's player chose to go with a transparent uniform, yes, even if it still has regular clothes underneath. And yes, tricking Kana with the broom was poor behaviour on the part of Rie's player. But that doesn't excuse repeatedly mangling up the story of what actually happened in the replay in the interest of spreading misinformation.

I think the language of "somewhat creepy" and "poor behavior" are serious misinformation on this point.  "Fictional sexual assault of a 10-year-old and a 13-year-old for laughs" is accurate regardless of quibbles about whether Kana was naked or had on a transparent uniform.  

Then again, I still think that Hentacle is worse than this despite most of the girls being over-age, given that they are explicitly being raped for laughs.

Quote from: mcbobbo;636172While I support free speech, there are reasonable limits to which I adhere.  Put me on the intolerant side of the sand-line, please.

But what, exactly, are you advocating here?  That the book be banned?  That the publisher voluntarily pull it from the market?  

There are plenty of books in bad taste in lots of ways, not just RPGs.  I don't think anyone should support this product (based on what I know of it).  But beyond refusing to buy it or participate in a game, what else should you do?  

Nothing.  Absolutely nothing.  Ignore it.  

Because it is not illegal (even if distasteful), all you're doing is cementing in people's minds that these types of games are 'representative' of the RPG community.  Ignoring something distasteful is not tantamount to endorsing it or even tolerating it.  Let the fetishists take it to the corner of the internet far from the public and keep it there.  My understanding (though I have not validated it) that the internet has sites dedicated to every fetish you can imagine.  The fact that dinosaur porn exists (?) disturbs me a little, but I find it's easy to avoid if I don't go looking for it.  

I'd have never heard of Maid at all if it hadn't been for 'earnest opponents' evangelizing the base against it.  Never, before it was brought up by people explaining how disgusting it was (in relation to a Something Awful Comic I hadn't read) had it ever come up...  And I'm a committed, life-long gamer.  If it was so far off the radar of real gamers, then there's NO CHANCE that it will be cemented in the minds of non-gamers as indicative of the hobby.

The fact that the hobby has a bunch of negative stereotypes associated with it has nothing to do with games like Maid.  People who play D&D (any edition) have managed to build plenty of negative stereotypes of gamers before MAID was ever considered, let alone created.  

If you're worried about negative stereotypes associated with members of the hobby, don't worry about fetishest gamers - worry about establishing a positive image for yourself as a gamer.  If you're a 'model' of the good of the game, that will do more good for the image than any attempt to disassociate yourself with 'undesireable' elements.

Quote from: jhkim;636182I think the language of "somewhat creepy" and "poor behavior" are serious misinformation on this point.  "Fictional sexual assault of a 10-year-old and a 13-year-old for laughs" is accurate regardless of quibbles about whether Kana was naked or had on a transparent uniform.

The matter of the clothing in the replay is far more easily clarified than where the legal status of the events would fall in a given jurisdiction. After that, people can then go on to make up their own minds based on reasonably reliable information. Casual personal assessment of the players' behaviour doesn't really influence that.

(Actually, looking into the terminology right now, "sexual assault" is defined broadly enough that it would generally speaking fit Rie's actions. Of course, it also describes many, many commonplace situations in fiction.)

Quote from: deadDMwalking;636183But what, exactly, are you advocating here?

Wherever appropriate, indicate that you do not approve of it, and advise like-minded people to do the same.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;636183But beyond refusing to buy it or participate in a game, what else should you do?  

Nothing.  Absolutely nothing.  Ignore it.

"All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing."

I'm not asking that someone go around burning books or engaging in any other action than countering unwanted speech with their own free speech.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;636183Because it is not illegal (even if distasteful), all you're doing is cementing in people's minds that these types of games are 'representative' of the RPG community.

That appears to be your opinion, though, and not any sort of measured fact.  It could well be that people witnessing a rejection of that particular product would see us alienating something that was not representitive.  And in fact, that would probably be more logical.

Are you really thinking that someone might interpret Sacrosant's posts, for example, as approval?

Quote from: deadDMwalking;636183If you're worried about negative stereotypes associated with members of the hobby, don't worry about fetishest gamers - worry about establishing a positive image for yourself as a gamer.  If you're a 'model' of the good of the game, that will do more good for the image than any attempt to disassociate yourself with 'undesireable' elements.

I view part of that good behavior to be doing the right thing when called upon to do so, even when inconvenient or uncomfortable.  I believe rejecting child abuse is one of those right things to do, RPG or not.

Just think if [imaginary thing] was [real thing]!

This is a pretty stupid argument, because the imaginary thing ISN'T the real thing.

Ceci n'est pas une pipe.

Here are the main characters from 2 of the 5 free scenarios.  But hey, just because scenarios like this exist, and are officially sanctioned by the authors, doesn't mean child sexploitation happens at all...:rolleyes:

Norrie (14 year old girl)
Ein (16 year old boy)

Late at night you discover Norrie in her bed, moaning
"No . . . I want to be with . . ." Was she going to call
someone's name?

"Today is your lucky day!" Ein gives into his urges and
forces himself on one of the maids



Kira-15 year old boy
Haru- 19 year old boy

On the first night Haru slipped into Kira-sama's room and got
intimate with him, so that they've now seduced each other.

Oh, and for complete transparency GrimGent you fucking pedo-apologist, here is the actual text from replay (essentially that how to play section, and notably the ONLY example to use).  Note the ages of the characters, and the creepy infatuation with pointing out how you can see the privates of a 10 year old girl (always bringing up transparent clothes)


TL:DR version: just look for the bolded bits

QuoteRie Shireda (Age 26)
Maid Type:
Sexy
Attributes:
Athletics 1, Affection 2, Skill 2, Cunning 4,
Luck 1, Will 0
Maid Special Qualities:
Evil Secret Society Member
(Leader), Likes Them Young
Maid Weapon:
Summoning (Monsters & Fighters)
Stress Explosion:
Teasing
Maid Power:
Trap
Profile:
Rie has a distinctly mature charm to her. She uses
her merits to get ahead and wields considerable influence.
However, she is weak-willed, and taking even a little bit of
damage will cause her to lose it and start tormenting the
other maids.

Tomoe Matsunaga (Age 20)
Maid Types:
Cool, Boyish
Attributes:
Athletics 4, Affection 0, Skill 3, Cunning 1,
Luck 2, Will 2
Maid Special Qualities:
Brown Skin, Cat Ears (Black)
Maid Weapon:
Metal Bat
Stress Explosion:
Crying
Maid Power:
Trespass
Profile:
A combat expert and paragon of pure love. This
dark-skinned, cat-eared maid fights with a metal bat, which
she uses to keep order as she wanders the mansion. No
one seems to really care about her cat ears.

Kana Kanae (Age 10)
Maid Types:
Lolita Heroine
Attributes:
Athletics 0, Affection 2, Skill 1, Cunning 1,
Luck 2, Will 3
Special Qualities:
Tights, Collar
Maid Weapon:
Mop
Stress Explosion:
Spoiled Child
Maid Power:
Hard Work
Profile:
The most servant-like of the characters this time
around. She has mostly low attributes, and because of
pressure from everyone around her she wears a transparent maid uniform (and with tights instead of a skirt no
less). [Note: the uniform AND tights are transparent.  I.e. a nude 10 year old girl]  During the game she winds up being not so much
the master’s servant as Rie’s.

GM:
Wow, those are some really amazing characters! What a
sight!
Tomoe:
Um, Mr. GM, I was hoping you’d bring it up first, but
what about our “master”? Don’t tell me that’s decided arbitrarily
too?
GM:
I’m not sure what you’re getting at. (rolls dice)
Tomoe:
Let’s have the master be female, and roll on this
table. (rolls more dice)
Rie:
Yeah, I like that idea!
Kana:
Me too. (Awww... Why see-through...?)
Tomoe:
Heh. Looks like we have a lot of opinions being forced
on you.
GM:
Gah! I see how it is, girls.
Tomoe:
Quick acting so high and mighty, and get rolling!
Three minutes later, the master is ready..

Lilith Origami (Age 13)
Types:
Pure Lolita
Attributes:
Average of 2 in everything. (Typical Master)
Special Qualities:
Shy, Sickly
Weapon:
Katana
Stress Explosion:
Violence
Profile:
Lilith is the direct descendant of the head of the
Origami Zaibatsu. She lives in a mansion on the edge of
town, surrounded by a trio of maids. Her body and spirit
are both weak, and she would be genuinely helpless with
-
out her maids. She has no idea how to deal with the out
-
side world, and stays inside her mansion. She doesn’t know
anyone apart from the maids and a few of her relatives.

Rie:
Yes! Another target!
Tomoe:
I really didn’t expect it to be so straightforward...
Lucky us.
Kana:
I think it’s too straightforward. I wanted her to be weirder
than me. I mean, I have a see-through uniform and tights...
GM, Who Will Hereafter Also Roleplay the Mis
-
tress, Lilith:
Um... N-Nice to meet you all. (nervous)
Rie:
Okay! Let’s get into the game! We’re here to torment... I
mean, serve you! (Heh)
Tomoe:
Just calm down, Rie. Why don’t we let the GM get
things moving? (smiles)
GM:
ANYWAY, let’s begin! The game takes place in the present
day, in a mansion on the outskirts of a city somewhere. That’s
where you live with Lilith Origami.
Somehow or other, the game is finally under way...
GM:
So, let’s start with the morning... Your first job is to wake
Lilith, though if you’d like you can get breakfast ready first

Rie:
In that case, I’ll be giving her a tender wake-up call!
Tomoe:
Hey, I want to be able to raise my attributes. I’m going to help too.
Kana:
Me too! I’m gonna help too!
GM:
Waking her up calls for an Affection roll, with a target
number of 8. She’s sleeping soundly in her covered bed.
Lilith:
Mmmm... (innocent sleeping sounds)
Tomoe:
(Affection roll, 0) Come on, young mistress, it’s time
to wake up.
Kana:
(Affection roll, 6) Um, young mistress, please wake up...
(She seems embarrassed at being seen by the other maid
in her see-through uniform. Lilith stirs and seems about to
wake up).
Rie:
(Affection roll, 12) Leave this to me. Young mistress... (She
cheerfully slips under the covers, and presses herself against
Lilith).  
GM:
Um. Well, since Rie got the highest result, she’s the one who
manages to wake her. Rie gets... 4 points of Favor. The rest of you
get Stress points equal to 12 divided by the attribute you used.
Kana:
Aww... That means I take 6 Stress...
Tomoe:
Hold on a minute! My Affection is 0! What the heck
happens?
GM:
Then you take 12 points of Stress. Besides, using Affection
was just a suggestion; usually you’ll want to try to use some
other attribute to find a good way to wake her up.
Tomoe:
Tell me that before, damn it! So, you mean I could’ve,
say, used Athletics to pull her out of bed instead?
GM:
Sure. Anyway, it seems she’s definitely awake now.
Lilith:
Aaah... Umm... What...? (She hurries to wake herself
up)
Rie:
Oh, you’re not getting away. (She chuckles as, under the
covers, she starts pulling off Lilith’s clothes, using Cunning)
GM:
And, apparently we’re on to the next task, dressing and
washing up the mistress? Does anyone want to step in?
Kana:
Um, not really. I’m scared of Rie, so I’ll go start making
breakfast. (Scurries out of the room).

Lilith:
Um... Aaah... Rie... St... Stop..

Rie:
Heheh. Come now, young mistress. You’re a growing girl; you
should be proud of your body. (She lays hands on Lilith’s pajamas
and undergarments, taking them off. Affection (?) result of 12).
Tomoe:
What do you think you’re doing?! (Swinging her bat at
the unrepentant Rie. Athletics result of 16).
Rie:
What?! Tomoe! Wh-What’re you doing to the young mistress! (While saying this, she uses her Cunning to try to keep
changing Lilith. Result of 12). Ack! (Takes 4 Stress)
GM:
Looks like Tomoe’s bat got a clean hit on Rie’s head.
Lilith:
Uh... Aaah... Stop... (covered in Rie’s gushing blood, she
starts to panic and jumps out of the bed)
Tomoe:
Are you alright, young mistress? (She holds the blood-
stained bat in one hand, and gently pats Lilith on the head
with the other to calm her down. Since her Affection is 0, the
result is, of course, also 0).
GM:
Well, it’s a good idea at least, but she’s just becoming more
scared. She’s shaking enough that Tomoe can feel it. (For the
good atmosphere earlier... normally Tomoe would get 2D6
Favor, but this time 1D6, which comes of as a 3).
Tomoe:
Sorry. Tomorrow I’ll make sure either I or Kana come
to wake you. (Realizing their mistake, she apologizes to
Lilith).
Lilith:
Uh... Um... But, that’s not the problem... (still shaking)
Rie:
Just remember, you’ve now angered Death Shocker’s Chief
of Nightmares . You will come to regret it. (Grinding her teeth
as she storms out of the room).
GM:
Now you’re just making up an organization by yourself...
Tomoe:
Now, young mistress, let’s get you dressed for today...
(She ignores Rie, and goes about quickly, efficiently dressing
Lilith and washing her face. Skill result of .
Lilith:
Um, thank you, Tomoe-san. (Tomoe gets 6 more Favor,
for a total of 9).
Later, in the kitchen...
Kana:
Okay, since there’s not much time I’ll make an open-
faced sandwich and iced tea. (Though she’s clumsy, she uses
her Hard Work power to prepare the food; her result is 3,
plus 3 is 6)
GM:
I see, not bad. At the very least, it won’t make the young
mistress mad.

Kana:
Okay. I’ll make enough for everyone and take it out to
the terrace. (She wobbles a bit as she carefully carries the
tray of food down the hallway).
Rie:
(Since she has a Spirit of 0, she’s having a Stress Explo
-
sion) ... (She quietly sticks her leg out to trip Kana, and gets
a Cunning result of 12).
Kana:
Aaah! (She trips, and tries to stop herself. Will result of
3, so she takes 4 Stress).
GM:
Kana tries to stop herself, but the food she made for every
-
one winds up scattered all over the hallway. It’s pretty impres
-
sive, really. The sandwiches are splattered with iced tea too.
Rie:
Oh my. You’ve really made a mess of this hallway. Kana, are
you really a maid?
Kana:
Aaah... The breakfast I made for everyone... (She’s about
to cry, as she takes in the scene of the ruined breakfast).
Rie:
Hey! Quit gawking and clean this up! (Grabbing at Kana’s
bottom through the see-through maid uniform).
Kana:
Aah... Uh... O-Okay... (Crying, she picks up her Maid
Weapon, a mop, and starts to clean up).
Rie:
You’re not very good at cleaning, are you? You really have
to learn, right? (So saying, she instructs Kana incorrectly. Cun
-
ning result of 24).
Kana:
L-Like this...? (She poses like a witch riding a broom. Rie is
teaching her how to clean with the mop between her legs. Since
the player knows she can’t win, Kana accepts this). Um... Uh... L-
Like this? (As for what’s going on here, we’ll leave it to the reader’s
imagination).

Rie:
Exactly... Heehee. Perfect. (She laughs as she stares at
Kana’s foolishness).
The events of the next two minutes of gameplay
should not be printed here...
Tomoe:
Apparently I’m the only one who takes being a maid
seriously. And I have cat ears.
GM:
Jeez. That was a bit too... perverted...
Rie:
Well, I had a Stress Explosion, after all. I have to go pick on
someone. The 4 minutes are up though, right? My Stress is
all gone! Okay, I think I’ll go make some breakfast in Kana’s
place.
Tomoe:
Wo w .
Kana:
You’re mean. Is that the only reason why you did that...?
Rie:
Okay. My Skill is 3, and I’ve got a result of 9 for making
breakfast. I’ll make broiled fish, rice, and miso soup! Oh, and
of course I’ll sit next to the young mistress! (Humming to
herself as she heads for the dining room).
GM:
She’s really... amazing.
Kana:
Ummm... ah... (Though still doing that embarrassing
cleaning, she decides to try for a counterattack. She lets her
-
self fall down, trying to knock down her adversary. Luck result
of 10).
Rie:
(She sees it coming, and lifts up the uncomfortably located
mop. Cunning result of 16). ? (Still humming, she continues
on her way).
Kana:
Eeeek! (Our see-through loli maid takes 8 Stress and is
laid out on the floor).
(Anyway, that’s breakfast. But before that, Rie pulls off Kana’s tights
and underwear. Her attire was already shall we say questionable, but according to the maid uniform/disrobing rules she now
takes a -2 penalty to all her actions. Kana’s really in trouble).
Tomoe:
...Maybe I should use my Tresspass power?
Kana:
I’m okay... Ugh... (Though not wearing anything on her
bottom, she lets herself be led to eat breakfast).
Lilith:
Um, Kana? Are you okay? (worried)
Rie:
(She’s received 3 Favor for breakfast. She mocks Kana). No,
don’t worry. That’s normal for her; she’s always dressed like that,
no matter who’s around. (She chuckles, and gets a Cunning result
of

...

Thanks, Sacrosanct.  Just what I was about to do.

I'm not kidding when I say that's some amazing free advertisement you just did there, Sacrosanct.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;636214Norrie (14 year old girl)
Ein (16 year old boy)

Late at night you discover Norrie in her bed, moaning
“No . . . I want to be with . . .” Was she going to call
someone’s name?

“Today is your lucky day!” Ein gives into his urges and
forces himself on one of the maids

I'm... not sure what's supposed to wrong with the first random event. Calling out in your sleep the name of someone that you have a crush on doesn't sound like "sexploitation" at all. And in the second event, the maid will promptly beat Ein up because he's pathetic. Unless the PCs manage to "reform" him, he's played as a "silly and annoying" comic relief whose stats aren't a match for even the weakest maids.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;636214Kira-15 year old boy
Haru- 19 year old boy

On the first night Haru slipped into Kira-sama’s room and got
intimate with him, so that they’ve now seduced each other.

Just a small correction: Haru is, in fact, a girl disguised as Kira's butler.

Oh, and thanks for the excerpt from the book. Even if the text's been altered since then, accuracy on what it was like before can only help. (Although you're still incorrect about Kana looking nude: there's a picture of her that shows the undergarments.)