As the tread says let me know the good and bad elements for ACKS.
Note not a thread to shit on the rpg or the creator so please don't post if that is all you have to say.
In case you want to watch instead of read, the YouTuber DmJames has done quite a few videos on pro-ACKS standpoint, if interested:
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=dmjames+acks
ACKS has a lot of details put together in a precise manner, with a laudable lack of typos for that amount of detail. The underlying math is well considered.
Whether or not the amount of detail is pro, con, or indifferent, that's up to each person. What seemed useful and helpful to me in small doses in "Lairs and Encounters" was less so in "The Sinister Stone of Sakkara" adventure. The latter to me seemed to have a heavy focus on mundane stuff only interesting to a group of players looking to play the money angle to the hilt.
The game's flavor is very much Late Antiquity/Conanesque Pulp Fantasy. Whether that's a plus or a minus depends on your tastes.
It has "race as class" done really well, especially with some of the supplements giving multiple options for each race. If you really don't like race as class, doing it well might still not be enough.
It has some of the best construction rules for new options of any RPG. You get 80% of the flexibility of systems like GUPRS and Hero (although limited here to a subset of fantasy) with about 20% of the work. Not only is there class design but race design, magic system design, magic item design, and spell design. There is also monster design, but I find the value of balanced monster design less compelling than the others.
The author is not afraid to have an opinion. This isn't about politics, but about what is appropriate for D&D style fantasy and what isn't. Thus, the core books omit hobbits/halflings because he's not a fan. When he introduced his dark elves in the Player's Companion they are more Melnibonés than Drow. When he finally gave in and introducing halflings in The Heroic Fantasy Handbook the two classes are bounders and burglars, thus tying them very specifically to Tolkien.
His adaption of the repertoire plus daily casting limit to B/X works quite well as a substitute for traditional memorized spells without straying too far from the base.
The eldritch magic system, his traditional D&D magic plus corruption, is the best B/X magic system out there IMHO, capturing the effects of using various dangerous magics from Tolkien, Howard, CAS, and others very well. In the magic systems supplement it is adapted to cover alchemy (where instead of corruption it is risk of toxicity) and super science (a kind of insanity) showing creativity in reskinning.
It does a lot with economics. Much like I think Lion & Dragon deliver a usable version of the medieval feel Chivalry & Sorcery promised in the late 70s the economics of the pre-industrial world promised by C&S are delivered in playable form here.
Note, for a lot of the above I'm including stuff from all four rules books and all issues of Axioms, the magazine collecting their Patreon items.
If you can't guess, I'm a fan of the system and it is my go to form of D&D these days, slightly edging out OSE and RC/Dark Dungeons. I would recommend grabbing the "ACKS 2nd edition preview" notes from the Patreon, which were published several years ago as document from the future, specifically GenCon 2020. They don't really change much, but clean up some things. You can play with or without them, but they give a feel for where he is going.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on September 28, 2022, 11:12:11 AM
The game's flavor is very much Late Antiquity/Conanesque Pulp Fantasy. Whether that's a plus or a minus depends on your tastes.
That's something I forgot in my long bit, but is another great example of his not being afraid to have an opinion. The default setting is essentially the fringes of the Western Roman Empire in the fifth century.
It is very much a plus for me even if I'm less interest in Iberia or North Africa in the period (what his default reminds me of) and more Britannia.
Quote from: PulpHerb on September 30, 2022, 12:02:50 PM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on September 28, 2022, 11:12:11 AM
The game's flavor is very much Late Antiquity/Conanesque Pulp Fantasy. Whether that's a plus or a minus depends on your tastes.
That's something I forgot in my long bit, but is another great example of his not being afraid to have an opinion. The default setting is essentially the fringes of the Western Roman Empire in the fifth century.
It is very much a plus for me even if I'm less interest in Iberia or North Africa in the period (what his default reminds me of) and more Britannia.
There has been a fair amount of chatter on the ACKS Discord about Rorn, the region of the Auran Empire that's sort of a Britain analog - it's even next to the Elf Country!
Quote from: PulpHerb on September 30, 2022, 12:01:07 PMIt does a lot with economics. Much like I think Lion & Dragon deliver a usable version of the medieval feel Chivalry & Sorcery promised in the late 70s the economics of the pre-industrial world promised by C&S are delivered in playable form here.
I'm intrigued by this because economics has been the one thing I've never really seen a game do particularly well, at least in any way that made the setting feel like an actual functioning society/world while still being both simple enough to be playable and detailed enough to reinforce verisimilitude. Exactly how does ACKS go about implementing rules for economics?
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on October 01, 2022, 04:15:48 AM
Exactly how does ACKS go about implementing rules for economics?
Most of it is invisible back end stuff (Archon shows his math in a few Axioms articles) but at the table the big and useful things are are Market Class tables and the Demographics of Leveled Characters tables, this grounds the setting logistically and gives the players and DM a consistens benchmark for the their power. If you adventure in a province of size X with urbanization rate Y you can figure out the level of the ruler, how many flasks of military oil you can find in the town market (and how many you could get per month if you commission them to find you as many as possible), you get the cost for having a healing spell cast on you (consistent with the expected level/wages of clerics/mages). If you then conquer that same province you know how much tax you're getting, and if you raise it to intolerable levels how many peasants become rebels, how big your garrison should be to keep the peace and how many people you can conscript if you want to raise a larger army. If you find a magic item you can calculate what it's in-setting price would be from the known effects and you can figure out which market is going to be big enough to have a buyer (few people can and would spend thousands of gps on a magic item).
In short, you can run the numbers from the book(s) and trust that holes don't show up that makes the logistics or economy broken.
(I've been running ACKS since 2017)
Some additional points to Sailing Scavenger good explanation of the economics:
1. The unit of measure for domains is the family. Cost and three revenue sources (land, services, and taxes) are measured in families. This allows some looking at averages and abstractions.
2. Towns are also in families and have similar cost and revenue structures.
3. There are rules for mercantile ventures that leverage the market class systems.
4. In keeping with the GP=XP culture domain income can provide experience if the ruler is below the expected level to have a domain of that size, allowing boy kings to grow into mighty rulers without adventuring.
5. All the systems are relatively short processes with few numbers. Averages let you abstract things like "you have 8 vassals who are barons so they produce $FOO each" if you want to avoid having to model each level of each holding. They are also quite amenable to spreadsheets (as are the design systems I listed). I wouldn't be surprised if people on the forums have several. In this place, the comparison to C&S is a tad unfair as in 1977 very few people had a computer. VisiCalc wasn't even invented yet. Even in 1983 when 2nd edition came out (and a few years later when Harn introduced similar systems) such machinery was uncommon. Yet, both C&S and Harn used much more complex systems. I can imagine managing ACKS domains by hand on paper but not the other two (and I tried).
Quote from: PulpHerb on September 30, 2022, 12:01:07 PM
His adaption of the repertoire plus daily casting limit to B/X works quite well as a substitute for traditional memorized spells without straying too far from the base.
The eldritch magic system, his traditional D&D magic plus corruption, is the best B/X magic system out there IMHO, capturing the effects of using various dangerous magics from Tolkien, Howard, CAS, and others very well. In the magic systems supplement it is adapted to cover alchemy (where instead of corruption it is risk of toxicity) and super science (a kind of insanity) showing creativity in reskinning.
Which books are that could you elaborate in the magic systems? (repertoire plus daily casting limit)
Thanks!
Quote from: Eric Diaz on October 01, 2022, 02:43:32 PM
Quote from: PulpHerb on September 30, 2022, 12:01:07 PM
His adaption of the repertoire plus daily casting limit to B/X works quite well as a substitute for traditional memorized spells without straying too far from the base.
The eldritch magic system, his traditional D&D magic plus corruption, is the best B/X magic system out there IMHO, capturing the effects of using various dangerous magics from Tolkien, Howard, CAS, and others very well. In the magic systems supplement it is adapted to cover alchemy (where instead of corruption it is risk of toxicity) and super science (a kind of insanity) showing creativity in reskinning.
Which books are that could you elaborate in the magic systems? (repertoire plus daily casting limit)
Thanks!
The
ACKS core rules use the idea of repertoire (i.e., spells you know, without needing to do daily memorization) and a daily casting limit (i.e., spells/level/day). The
Heroic Fantasy Handbook introduces variant magic systems (essentially spell points, roll-to-cast, black-white-grey spell lists). I can't speak to whatever other variants were introduced in Axioms.
I almost recommended ACKS Core in the "one book RPG" thread. It would likely have been disqualified, though, because A. the mass combat rules are separate; there's a free version that works fine if you don't want to go full wargame campaign and B. some of the key rules sections in Core have been improved, in the changed-from-good-to-better sense, in Axioms.
To add to the previous ACKS praise, I'll say that one thing I like a lot about the system is how much thought went into it. This isn't just some fantasy heartbreaker D&D spin-off someone banged out because everyone else was selling their B/X house rules and it shows.
The guy who wrote it is very thoughtful - deep thinking about how RPG mechanics work the way they do. His RPG advice book is terrific (and really applies to any RPG) - can't recommend it enough.
As others have noted, two things that stand out are the variations on racial classes, and the domain rules.
There are several books, though, and I'd love if they put out a single volume class compendium, bringing in all the classes from all the supplements.
On the negative side, they have their own take on armor class, which is a bit off-putting. It's not hard to learn, but being used to ascending or descending from 10, switching to 0 just seems weird.
The reason *I* like ACKS is that its a sandbox for creating and running fantasy worlds. It begins like an OSR RPG, but you quickly realize there's a lot more going on underneath the hood and that the game is leading players onto bigger and better things. Characters don't just level-up, they become conquerors, and eventually kings. Want to carve out a realm of your own? Wage war against your neighbors? Become a merchant king? Research and create new monsters? New magic? Create a dynasty? Done, done, and done. Additionally, its all researched, measured, and backed-up with a lot of historical evidence, explanation, examples, and creativity.
Beyond this, its a system for creating RPGs. For example, create your own magic rules. Don't like Arcane or Divine magic? Use Eldritch magic. Don't like spell slots? Adopt spell singing/spell points; or go the ceremonial magic route. Overcasting? Check. Cantrips? Check. Corruption? Check. Oh yeah, and that's all optional. You pick and choose. And if none of that pleases you...create your own system using the rules provided. Same goes for new classes and monsters. Want to create a world where the outcome is based on the decisions you make each step of the way? Done.
Don't want any of that and just need off-the-shelf materials that are original and interesting? Guess what? Done! The Auren Empire setting is late Roman antiquity / pre-medieval, but with elements of before and after. The history is original, yet feels familiar. The pre-packaged adventures are simple to get playing, yet engaging. And there's a ton of supplemental "one-off" materials to quickly play out small encounters (remember that sand box part, above?) If you want a heroic fantasy / Tolkienesque flavor, there's a book for that. Howardian Conan-style play? There's a book for that too.
And, finally, have questions? The Patreon/Discord is awesome. The authors are always improving rules and adding new content. The community is knowledgeable and helpful.
What you might not like: Its OSR, meaning d20 vs. AC without a lot of additional mechanics. If you prefer something more bleeding edge, this game probably isn't for you. You may not prefer the race-based class system, acquisition-driven experience system, or the simplistic yet historical alignment system (law vs. chaos). If you're into mechanics like advantage/disadvantage, difficulty classes, and success levels, you won't find them in ACKS. On the plus side, this makes ACKS a game that a GM can - actually - manage in a VTT, without a ton of customization or programming needed. Its not "role play" centric, in that mechanics and rules are mainly geared around combat, magic, loot, and other material acquisition. Its up to the GM and players to build out the rest (which is, IMO, also a good thing, but you may find it lacking if your used to rules and materials that feature roleplay over adventuring.) But of course, you can always just add what you feel is lacking - the system is simple enough to make this pretty easy.
The core rules are basically FREE, so there's no reason not to give it a shot. Start simple and then "bolt on" from there.
Quote from: omonubi on October 02, 2022, 01:15:58 AM
The core rules are basically FREE, so there's no reason not to give it a shot. Start simple and then "bolt on" from there.
Where are the free core rules? I looked and only saw two main books and both were $10/ea, which is quite reasonable but I'd like to peruse a starter set or overview before buying.
Quote from: Zelen on October 02, 2022, 03:01:40 AM
Quote from: omonubi on October 02, 2022, 01:15:58 AM
The core rules are basically FREE, so there's no reason not to give it a shot. Start simple and then "bolt on" from there.
Where are the free core rules? I looked and only saw two main books and both were $10/ea, which is quite reasonable but I'd like to peruse a starter set or overview before buying.
I think this is what is being referenced: https://tkurtbond.github.io/ACKS/chapters/ (https://tkurtbond.github.io/ACKS/chapters/).
Quote from: rhialto on October 01, 2022, 03:21:34 PM
The ACKS core rules use the idea of repertoire (i.e., spells you know, without needing to do daily memorization) and a daily casting limit (i.e., spells/level/day). The Heroic Fantasy Handbook introduces variant magic systems (essentially spell points, roll-to-cast, black-white-grey spell lists). I can't speak to whatever other variants were introduced in Axioms.
The repertoire/casting limit is very similar to 3.x sorcerer. The main difference is like B/X repertoire and daily limit size are identical. However, a wizard with higher intelligence get additional spells in their repertoire equal to their intelligence bonus per level.
The other systems I mentioned are in
Aryxymaraki's Almanac of Unusual Magic. All but one include design notes to use the magic system creation rules in
Axioms #1. The article also includes an example of building a systems of faery magic and battlelore as examples. A separate article in the same issue includes the shaded magic rules mentioned as being in the
Heroic Fantasy Handbook and a wizard class that uses them.
Axioms #18 integrates the rules for spell creation from
Player's Companion and
The High Fantasy Handbook into one place.
Quote from: rhialto on October 02, 2022, 06:57:40 AM
Quote from: Zelen on October 02, 2022, 03:01:40 AM
Quote from: omonubi on October 02, 2022, 01:15:58 AM
The core rules are basically FREE, so there's no reason not to give it a shot. Start simple and then "bolt on" from there.
Where are the free core rules? I looked and only saw two main books and both were $10/ea, which is quite reasonable but I'd like to peruse a starter set or overview before buying.
I think this is what is being referenced: https://tkurtbond.github.io/ACKS/chapters/ (https://tkurtbond.github.io/ACKS/chapters/).
Github has SRD type documents with the open source parts of several books:
Core book: https://github.com/capheind/ACKS_SRD
High Fantasy Handbook: https://github.com/atdyck/HFH_SRD
I thought there was a
Player's Companion as well, but I'm not finding it.
Quote from: rhialto on October 01, 2022, 03:21:34 PM
Quote from: Eric Diaz on October 01, 2022, 02:43:32 PM
Quote from: PulpHerb on September 30, 2022, 12:01:07 PM
His adaption of the repertoire plus daily casting limit to B/X works quite well as a substitute for traditional memorized spells without straying too far from the base.
The eldritch magic system, his traditional D&D magic plus corruption, is the best B/X magic system out there IMHO, capturing the effects of using various dangerous magics from Tolkien, Howard, CAS, and others very well. In the magic systems supplement it is adapted to cover alchemy (where instead of corruption it is risk of toxicity) and super science (a kind of insanity) showing creativity in reskinning.
Which books are that could you elaborate in the magic systems? (repertoire plus daily casting limit)
Thanks!
The ACKS core rules use the idea of repertoire (i.e., spells you know, without needing to do daily memorization) and a daily casting limit (i.e., spells/level/day). The Heroic Fantasy Handbook introduces variant magic systems (essentially spell points, roll-to-cast, black-white-grey spell lists). I can't speak to whatever other variants were introduced in Axioms.
Awesome stuff! Just read it again an it's an interesting simplification of the Vancian system.
I haven't read the Heroic Fantasy Handbook, sounds interesting too (I wrote a book on alternative to Vancian casting in B/X, including some of these options, shoudl've read this one before to compare notes).
Quote from: PulpHerb on October 02, 2022, 11:01:09 AM
Quote from: rhialto on October 02, 2022, 06:57:40 AM
Quote from: Zelen on October 02, 2022, 03:01:40 AM
Quote from: omonubi on October 02, 2022, 01:15:58 AM
The core rules are basically FREE, so there's no reason not to give it a shot. Start simple and then "bolt on" from there.
Where are the free core rules? I looked and only saw two main books and both were $10/ea, which is quite reasonable but I'd like to peruse a starter set or overview before buying.
I think this is what is being referenced: https://tkurtbond.github.io/ACKS/chapters/ (https://tkurtbond.github.io/ACKS/chapters/).
Github has SRD type documents with the open source parts of several books:
Core book: https://github.com/capheind/ACKS_SRD
High Fantasy Handbook: https://github.com/atdyck/HFH_SRD
I thought there was a Player's Companion as well, but I'm not finding it.
Man that is... awesome! I've read ACKS a long time ago but never played. These high fantasy options are great. Alas, I dislike race-as-class, but other than that this seems to be almost the ideal system for me. Streamlined d20 rolls, feats, lots of options... cool AF.
Quote from: Persimmon on October 02, 2022, 12:55:49 AM
As others have noted, two things that stand out are the variations on racial classes, and the domain rules.
There are several books, though, and I'd love if they put out a single volume class compendium, bringing in all the classes from all the supplements.
On the negative side, they have their own take on armor class, which is a bit off-putting. It's not hard to learn, but being used to ascending or descending from 10, switching to 0 just seems weird.
Since a given class gets a hit on a specific number (Ftr 1 w/ 16 Str 'hits' on an 8+ on a d20, for example), I up front explained it to my players as AC being thought of as a modifier to the attack roll like any of the situational modifiers. That seemed to really help them when we started using ACKS.
Quote from: moonsweeper on October 02, 2022, 11:18:09 AM
Quote from: Persimmon on October 02, 2022, 12:55:49 AM
As others have noted, two things that stand out are the variations on racial classes, and the domain rules.
There are several books, though, and I'd love if they put out a single volume class compendium, bringing in all the classes from all the supplements.
On the negative side, they have their own take on armor class, which is a bit off-putting. It's not hard to learn, but being used to ascending or descending from 10, switching to 0 just seems weird.
Since a given class gets a hit on a specific number (Ftr 1 w/ 16 Str 'hits' on an 8+ on a d20, for example), I up front explained it to my players as AC being thought of as a modifier to the attack roll like any of the situational modifiers. That seemed to really help them when we started using ACKS.
The 2nd edition notes/proposal that was on the Patreon takes that one step further.
Everything is a target of 20. The saving throw and to hit numbers get converted to bonuses to the DC roll as well.
Quote from: Eric Diaz on October 02, 2022, 11:08:11 AM
Quote from: PulpHerb on October 02, 2022, 11:01:09 AM
Quote from: rhialto on October 02, 2022, 06:57:40 AM
Quote from: Zelen on October 02, 2022, 03:01:40 AM
Quote from: omonubi on October 02, 2022, 01:15:58 AM
The core rules are basically FREE, so there's no reason not to give it a shot. Start simple and then "bolt on" from there.
Where are the free core rules? I looked and only saw two main books and both were $10/ea, which is quite reasonable but I'd like to peruse a starter set or overview before buying.
I think this is what is being referenced: https://tkurtbond.github.io/ACKS/chapters/ (https://tkurtbond.github.io/ACKS/chapters/).
Github has SRD type documents with the open source parts of several books:
Core book: https://github.com/capheind/ACKS_SRD
High Fantasy Handbook: https://github.com/atdyck/HFH_SRD
I thought there was a Player's Companion as well, but I'm not finding it.
Man that is... awesome! I've read ACKS a long time ago but never played. These high fantasy options are great. Alas, I dislike race-as-class, but other than that this seems to be almost the ideal system for me. Streamlined d20 rolls, feats, lots of options... cool AF.
ACKS' take on Character Classes makes a lot of sense with the idea that the standard Fighter, Mage, Thief, Cleric, etc are the standard for
humans and that the demihuman cultures have their own takes on those archetypes that reflect their own natures and histories. Not Race as Class, but Racial Classes.
I love how he did Hit Points at 0. Instead of just either being KO'd or dead at 0 HP, there is a body trauma medical check that happens when someone tries to heal/check on you. This can result in quite a few possible results. Some determining factors include how long you're down/unconscious, total damage taken that took you to 0, quality of medical training by the person checking on you, and so on. You can end up with a bruise, get a limb severed, have internal damage, or just be flat out dead. It's really cool.
Archon also takes the most logical application of Race as Class in any game. You're not just a Dwarf or Elf, but he provides multiple options of different Elf and Dwarf classes and all seem to fit the race's different cultures and trainings.
Then all his tools for making your own races, classes, monsters, and so on and you have a very good toolkit rpg.
Quote from: PulpHerb on October 02, 2022, 11:20:54 AM
Quote from: moonsweeper on October 02, 2022, 11:18:09 AM
Quote from: Persimmon on October 02, 2022, 12:55:49 AM
As others have noted, two things that stand out are the variations on racial classes, and the domain rules.
There are several books, though, and I'd love if they put out a single volume class compendium, bringing in all the classes from all the supplements.
On the negative side, they have their own take on armor class, which is a bit off-putting. It's not hard to learn, but being used to ascending or descending from 10, switching to 0 just seems weird.
Since a given class gets a hit on a specific number (Ftr 1 w/ 16 Str 'hits' on an 8+ on a d20, for example), I up front explained it to my players as AC being thought of as a modifier to the attack roll like any of the situational modifiers. That seemed to really help them when we started using ACKS.
The 2nd edition notes/proposal that was on the Patreon takes that one step further.
Everything is a target of 20. The saving throw and to hit numbers get converted to bonuses to the DC roll as well.
I really like the Target20 mechanic:
http://www.oedgames.com/target20/
I've been using Target 18. Seems to work well for existing STs, skills and even combat.
https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2022/09/minimalist-osr-target-18.html
Personally I hope the current attack/saving throw mechanic stays instead of turning into another BAB system. Having the number you need to roll right there on your character sheet sped things up wonderfully when I was introducing the game to people who'd never played RPGs before. First level character, 10+ to hit AC 0. Easy peasy.
Quote from: ZeroSum on October 03, 2022, 12:12:39 PM
Personally I hope the current attack/saving throw mechanic stays instead of turning into another BAB system. Having the number you need to roll right there on your character sheet sped things up wonderfully when I was introducing the game to people who'd never played RPGs before. First level character, 10+ to hit AC 0. Easy peasy.
I'm with you. I'm kind of tired of this synergizing of the attack/action roll to become a universal OSR mechanism that's been happening lately in OSR games. Part of what makes ACKS unique is how it handles the action roll.
Quote from: ZeroSum on October 03, 2022, 12:12:39 PM
Personally I hope the current attack/saving throw mechanic stays instead of turning into another BAB system. Having the number you need to roll right there on your character sheet sped things up wonderfully when I was introducing the game to people who'd never played RPGs before. First level character, 10+ to hit AC 0. Easy peasy.
Well, that document was 4-5 years ago and we don't have a second edition yet so he might have abandoned it.
Quote from: PulpHerb on October 05, 2022, 10:21:28 AM
Quote from: ZeroSum on October 03, 2022, 12:12:39 PM
Personally I hope the current attack/saving throw mechanic stays instead of turning into another BAB system. Having the number you need to roll right there on your character sheet sped things up wonderfully when I was introducing the game to people who'd never played RPGs before. First level character, 10+ to hit AC 0. Easy peasy.
Well, that document was 4-5 years ago and we don't have a second edition yet so he might have abandoned it.
Quote from: ZeroSum on October 03, 2022, 12:12:39 PM
Personally I hope the current attack/saving throw mechanic stays instead of turning into another BAB system. Having the number you need to roll right there on your character sheet sped things up wonderfully when I was introducing the game to people who'd never played RPGs before. First level character, 10+ to hit AC 0. Easy peasy.
The 2nd edition is still very much in the works, but is something that is slowly worked on and playtested. Based on the playtest from a year ago, I see no mention of what you describe. There's been a lot of work to streamline some aspects, as well as combine many of the books. I haven't had a chance to really get involved with the playtest, but do chat with him from time to time. I had recently done his Kickstarter trailer for By This Axe, his Dwarven handbook. And a while back, had suggested how to take all the material (I think something like 800 pages worth of material) and gave my input on how to divide it into 3 books. He seemed to like the organization method.
Thank you for all the feedback.
Those that have 1E and access to 2E playtest is it worth upgrading to the new edition if it ever is released?
Quote from: World_Warrior on October 06, 2022, 09:56:09 AM
The 2nd edition is still very much in the works, but is something that is slowly worked on and playtested. Based on the playtest from a year ago, I see no mention of what you describe. There's been a lot of work to streamline some aspects, as well as combine many of the books. I haven't had a chance to really get involved with the playtest, but do chat with him from time to time. I had recently done his Kickstarter trailer for By This Axe, his Dwarven handbook. And a while back, had suggested how to take all the material (I think something like 800 pages worth of material) and gave my input on how to divide it into 3 books. He seemed to like the organization method.
I dropped all my Patreon's about a year ago so haven't seen any newer stuff and while I'm on the ACKS Discord and Forums I'm not very active so I might be very behind.
I skipped *By This Axe* KS for no grander reason than I'm not that big on dwarves. I think the last ACKS KS I did was *Domains at War*.
From the Patreon document a few years back the biggest changes contemplated at that time seemed to be mostly integrating optional rules from *High Fantasy Handbook*, such as revised proficiencies, criticals, hit points, healing, armor penetration, thieves skill updates, and special maneuvers.
Looking at the only thing not from HFH, PC, or Axioms is one forum rule, some clarified language, retraining proficiencies, and HD size bonuses to the mortal wounds table. The biggest "new thing" is the variant of target 20 which you said is gone.
I'm working on stuff to start an ACKS game (I've been player only, no GMing, since the start of COVID for a variety of reasons) and I was thinking of using that doc...maybe I should go through the discord and forums to get up to date.
Certainly, I'm using the race creation and class creation rules for *The World Before* to create The Generations of Adam, The Generations of Lilith (pseudo-elves), and the Men of Renownd. Regular humans will be The Generations of Cain.
Quote from: Abraxus on October 06, 2022, 11:11:36 AM
Thank you for all the feedback.
Those that have 1E and access to 2E platters is it worth upgrading to the new edition if it ever is released?
So far I'm pretty happy with what I have. See how my now very outdated early pass at 2nd is mostly material in *Axioms* and *The High Fantasy Handbook* so you'd probably be at a healthy 1.5 with just those items. The issues of *Axioms* also provide a lot of the creation material which is well worth your time.
I'll also give a shout-out to Alexander's *Arbiter of Worlds* (https://amzn.to/3rBFjxy), his book on game mastering. Most of it is things more experienced players know, but it is well written and I picked up some new ways of doing/looking at things already in my tool kit.
Quote from: PulpHerb on October 06, 2022, 11:46:58 AM
Certainly, I'm using the race creation and class creation rules for *The World Before* to create The Generations of Adam, The Generations of Lilith (pseudo-elves), and the Men of Renownd. Regular humans will be The Generations of Cain.
This sounds very cool: is it shareable? :)
Quote from: PulpHerb on October 06, 2022, 11:55:11 AM
I'll also give a shout-out to Alexander's *Arbiter of Worlds* (https://amzn.to/3rBFjxy), his book on game mastering. Most of it is things more experienced players know, but it is well written and I picked up some new ways of doing/looking at things already in my tool kit.
Also his ongoing Arbiter of Worlds Substack: https://arbiterofworlds.substack.com/
Quote from: rhialto on October 06, 2022, 12:10:16 PM
Quote from: PulpHerb on October 06, 2022, 11:46:58 AM
Certainly, I'm using the race creation and class creation rules for *The World Before* to create The Generations of Adam, The Generations of Lilith (pseudo-elves), and the Men of Renownd. Regular humans will be The Generations of Cain.
This sounds very cool: is it shareable? :)
Not yet, but the elevator pitch is "Fantasy adventures between the birth of Seth and the Great Flood. Using various legends and traditions from the Fertile Crescent and Jewish and Christian sources to fill out the world of Genesis 4:10 through 6:7 for a world of adventure."
I use the idea of "Elves being the descendants of Lilith and Adam"
The World After (some details on my very old blog https://peopletobe.blogspot.com/search/label/The%20World%20After) hence "Generations of Lilith".
The "Generations of Adam" at Seth and his descendants and people and right now use the Nobrians from ACKS
Player's Companion for the race. Originally, "Generations of Cain" were going to be half-elves using the WoD idea of Lilith aiding Cain, in this case they would have married resulting in half-elves. Then the "Generations of Adam" would be the normal humans, but I think the change works better.
"Men of Renown" are the Nephilim, children of angels and the daughters of men. Originally, they were going to be Nobrians, but now I think I need to design more active magic than cleric magic to be their default. They are war mages so more than buffs seem natural to them.
I think human wizards will use the Eldritch magic while Daughters of Lilith will use arcane as they are creatures of chaos and don't risk the corruption human magicians would.
For the world itself, using directions the above verses and putting it all before the Great Deluge hypothesis of the Black Sea give me a world around a shrunken Black sea with elves on the north shore, humans on the south and eastern shores divided between the patriarchs mostly on the central south and regular humans on the eastern and southeastern shore.
The big "enemy" are stolen from Ken Hite's
Cabal books for GURPS in the from of Qlippoth, remnants of the prior creation. The traditional ruins of D&D have the same source.
Quote from: rhialto on October 06, 2022, 12:12:14 PM
Also his ongoing Arbiter of Worlds Substack: https://arbiterofworlds.substack.com/
Missed that too...subscribed.
Quote from: PulpHerb on October 06, 2022, 12:27:45 PM
Not yet, but the elevator pitch is "Fantasy adventures between the birth of Seth and the Great Flood. Using various legends and traditions from the Fertile Crescent and Jewish and Christian sources to fill out the world of Genesis 4:10 through 6:7 for a world of adventure."
I use the idea of "Elves being the descendants of Lilith and Adam" The World After (some details on my very old blog https://peopletobe.blogspot.com/search/label/The%20World%20After) hence "Generations of Lilith".
The "Generations of Adam" at Seth and his descendants and people and right now use the Nobrians from ACKS Player's Companion for the race. Originally, "Generations of Cain" were going to be half-elves using the WoD idea of Lilith aiding Cain, in this case they would have married resulting in half-elves. Then the "Generations of Adam" would be the normal humans, but I think the change works better.
"Men of Renown" are the Nephilim, children of angels and the daughters of men. Originally, they were going to be Nobrians, but now I think I need to design more active magic than cleric magic to be their default. They are war mages so more than buffs seem natural to them.
I think human wizards will use the Eldritch magic while Daughters of Lilith will use arcane as they are creatures of chaos and don't risk the corruption human magicians would.
For the world itself, using directions the above verses and putting it all before the Great Deluge hypothesis of the Black Sea give me a world around a shrunken Black sea with elves on the north shore, humans on the south and eastern shores divided between the patriarchs mostly on the central south and regular humans on the eastern and southeastern shore.
The big "enemy" are stolen from Ken Hite's Cabal books for GURPS in the from of Qlippoth, remnants of the prior creation. The traditional ruins of D&D have the same source.
That sounds even better now...I'd love to hear more about this as it develops. In a similar vein I swapped out Nobirans for Atlanteans and Zaharans for Hyperboreans in my nascent Atlantean Age ACKS game (loosely based on the Theosophical theories of Madame Blavatsky). The HFH figures prominently too.
My intent at this point is to release a product called Adventurer Conqueror King System: Imperial Imprint. it's not really a new edition. It's more like a revised compendium of our rules including stuff that has appeared in Axioms and various modules. I would say it's similar to Rules Cyclopedia vs BECMI.
I now have 11 years of actual play information on all of the ACKS systems and with that knowledge I've been able to improve a lot. I also have deepened my understanding of economics, and more thoroughly developed the entire economic backend. The confirmed changes are primarily focused on the secret sauce of ACKS, its campaign mechanics:
1. Stronghold & Domains rules upgraded to the rules found in Axioms
2. Magic Research rules upgraded to rules released on Patreon
3. Mercantile Ventures rules upgraded to rules released on Patreon
4. Hijink rules upgraded to rules released on Patreon
Other notable changes:
5. WISDOM now adds its modifier to all saving throws, not just saving throws vs Spells
6. Simultaneous attacks are removed and the team with the fewer number of combatants goes first on ties (this avoids "quantum cleaves" where people are still cleaving after they're dead)
7. Mortal Wounds and Tampering with Mortality tables expanded to include variants by alignment and weapon
8. THIEF value in the design system now affords more class powers; FIGHTER value trade-offs in the class design system now have less of an XP penalty (this has "buffed" some of the weaker classes and it makes low-AC highly specialized fighter-types more playable)
9. Improvements to thieves
10. Improvements to some saving throw progressions that made it hard for fighters to avoid special maneuvers
There's a laundry list of other small fixes, tweaks, and so on. After deep rumination, I abandoned all ideas of incorporating Heroic Fantasy into "core" ACKS and I abandoned any notion of swapping away from our AC and throw system. Both of those would make the game much less backwards compatible, and I just have no interest in doing that. RPGs benefit from network effects, and splitting my community into two networks with incompatible editions would be foolish; moreover, keeping ACKS close to its roots keeps all the great OSR and Classic D&D stuff compatible.
So the goal is that someone could stick with the original core and still be actively playing ACKS; upgrade to the new core rules and simply be playing "the same game but better"; or do something in between, they could pick and choose which "sections" of the new rules and plug and play as desired.
Quote from: amacris on October 08, 2022, 01:35:09 PM
My intent at this point is to release a product called Adventurer Conqueror King System: Imperial Imprint. it's not really a new edition. It's more like a revised compendium of our rules including stuff that has appeared in Axioms and various modules. I would say it's similar to Rules Cyclopedia vs BECMI.
I now have 11 years of actual play information on all of the ACKS systems and with that knowledge I've been able to improve a lot. I also have deepened my understanding of economics, and more thoroughly developed the entire economic backend. The confirmed changes are primarily focused on the secret sauce of ACKS, its campaign mechanics:
1. Stronghold & Domains rules upgraded to the rules found in Axioms
2. Magic Research rules upgraded to rules released on Patreon
3. Mercantile Ventures rules upgraded to rules released on Patreon
4. Hijink rules upgraded to rules released on Patreon
Other notable changes:
5. WISDOM now adds its modifier to all saving throws, not just saving throws vs Spells
6. Simultaneous attacks are removed and the team with the fewer number of combatants goes first on ties (this avoids "quantum cleaves" where people are still cleaving after they're dead)
7. Mortal Wounds and Tampering with Mortality tables expanded to include variants by alignment and weapon
8. THIEF value in the design system now affords more class powers; FIGHTER value trade-offs in the class design system now have less of an XP penalty (this has "buffed" some of the weaker classes and it makes low-AC highly specialized fighter-types more playable)
9. Improvements to thieves
10. Improvements to some saving throw progressions that made it hard for fighters to avoid special maneuvers
There's a laundry list of other small fixes, tweaks, and so on. After deep rumination, I abandoned all ideas of incorporating Heroic Fantasy into "core" ACKS and I abandoned any notion of swapping away from our AC and throw system. Both of those would make the game much less backwards compatible, and I just have no interest in doing that. RPGs benefit from network effects, and splitting my community into two networks with incompatible editions would be foolish; moreover, keeping ACKS close to its roots keeps all the great OSR and Classic D&D stuff compatible.
So the goal is that someone could stick with the original core and still be actively playing ACKS; upgrade to the new core rules and simply be playing "the same game but better"; or do something in between, they could pick and choose which "sections" of the new rules and plug and play as desired.
This actually sounds even better. I'd definitely still pick up a new Imperial Imprint, whenever it arrives. ACKS has been one of the really cool OSR lines with a specific visual look and a vision for how the game progresses. I was really happy to see that By This Axe did well on Kickstarter as well. Keep crushing it!
Thanks Amacris
Any tentative release dates for the Imperial Imprint?
I'll probably Kickstart it in mid-2023. Just in time for everyone to be maximally annoyed at One D&D if I'm lucky, and maximally distracted by One D&D if not.
@amacris will my copy of heroic still work with the new core?
Quote from: amacris on October 08, 2022, 01:35:09 PM
8. THIEF value in the design system now affords more class powers; FIGHTER value trade-offs in the class design system now have less of an XP penalty (this has "buffed" some of the weaker classes and it makes low-AC highly specialized fighter-types more playable)
How much is this going to affect leveling costs for classes that use a lot of trade-offs or have numerous powers. From the "official" classes, for example, is this significantly changing the cost of tradeoffs is going to be big for the Mystic, Barbarian, Shaman, and Witch given 5 tradeoffs for the first and 4 for the rest.
Quote from: amacris on October 08, 2022, 03:18:31 PM
I'll probably Kickstart it in mid-2023. Just in time for everyone to be maximally annoyed at One D&D if I'm lucky, and maximally distracted by One D&D if not.
Good luck ACKS was one of the first OSR game i bought and one of the best still. And so much of it is usable in any game.
Imperial Imprint sounds interesting. Be sure to remind us sometime closer to the time, because some of us don't check kickstarter on a regular schedule. :D
Quote from: PencilBoy99 on October 08, 2022, 04:18:17 PM
@amacris will my copy of heroic still work with the new core?
Yes, it'll work just fine. I'll like create a short "conversion sheet" that will go out to all of the people who have copies of the product that will explain the (minor) things necessary to do for compatibility. It's mostly a matter of a few extra proficiencies, some lower XP, and a slight bonus to Paralysis saves.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on October 08, 2022, 10:02:32 PM
Imperial Imprint sounds interesting. Be sure to remind us sometime closer to the time, because some of us don't check kickstarter on a regular schedule. :D
I definitely will, thanks!!
Quote from: PulpHerb on October 08, 2022, 05:03:12 PM
Quote from: amacris on October 08, 2022, 01:35:09 PM
8. THIEF value in the design system now affords more class powers; FIGHTER value trade-offs in the class design system now have less of an XP penalty (this has "buffed" some of the weaker classes and it makes low-AC highly specialized fighter-types more playable)
How much is this going to affect leveling costs for classes that use a lot of trade-offs or have numerous powers. From the "official" classes, for example, is this significantly changing the cost of tradeoffs is going to be big for the Mystic, Barbarian, Shaman, and Witch given 5 tradeoffs for the first and 4 for the rest.
It only affects Fighting Style Trade-Offs for characters with Fighting Value 2. Essentially, a decade of playtesting revealed that taking Weapon Trade-offs had little downside except XP cost, while Armor, Damage, and Fight Style Trade-Offs had downsides that actually mattered. For instance, being limited to only using swords and spears, but not axes, doesn't impact you very much. But not being able to use shields or wear plate armor impacts you a LOT. So we've increased the XP cost for Weapon Trade-Offs and eliminated them from the others.
The Mystic is the character class that is most affected, since he took Armor Trade-Offs down to No Armor. Under Imperial Imprint, he'd become substantially less expensive to level.
Quote from: ZeroSum on October 03, 2022, 12:12:39 PM
Personally I hope the current attack/saving throw mechanic stays instead of turning into another BAB system. Having the number you need to roll right there on your character sheet sped things up wonderfully when I was introducing the game to people who'd never played RPGs before. First level character, 10+ to hit AC 0. Easy peasy.
Quote from: amacris on October 08, 2022, 01:35:09 PM
My intent at this point is to release a product called Adventurer Conqueror King System: Imperial Imprint. ... ... and I abandoned any notion of swapping away from our AC and throw system. Both of those would make the game much less backwards compatible, and I just have no interest in doing that. RPGs benefit from network effects, and splitting my community into two networks with incompatible editions would be foolish; moreover, keeping ACKS close to its roots keeps all the great OSR and Classic D&D stuff compatible. ...
I'll be the lone voice in the wilderness and say that moving to standard ascending AC is the way to go. Having a unique attack roll just limits your potential future audience.
As to backwards compatibility - that can be done with a conversion chart. otherwise in my experience you can call the Imperial Imprint not a new edition all you want. People will still generally move on to the new hotness do to ease of use due to having all the cool stuff in one place.
As to splitting your network effect. It is a risk. The tradeoff is potentially alienating older customers, vs having your system more accessible to new blood. I'd err on the side of accessibility to new blood.
That being said; I do not know what your sales and metrics are, and it is all too easy to tell someone else what to do with their time and money.
Quote from: Jaeger on October 12, 2022, 06:52:47 PM
As to splitting your network effect. It is a risk. The tradeoff is potentially alienating older customers, vs having your system more accessible to new blood. I'd err on the side of accessibility to new blood.
And that attitude is the basis of just about every corporate suicide in the last 20 years. Star Wars is the most popular IP in the past 40 years, but it doesn't attract girls. So let's change it to appeal to girls... How did that work out?
Never chase new fans at the expense of the old fans...
Upthread there was mention of the age-old d20 to hit AC. We usually switch to a save for armor type and then rely on a d20 roll using an attribute as a base (then modifying for level). I wonder if ACKS would be amenable for such *with some thoughtful hacking* ?
I'm getting a copy, as I like what I have heard in this thread, but I wondered if anyone with experience with the rules has done some "to hit" re-tooling? Workable?
Quote from: Eirikrautha on October 12, 2022, 09:05:56 PM
Quote from: Jaeger on October 12, 2022, 06:52:47 PM
As to splitting your network effect. It is a risk. The tradeoff is potentially alienating older customers, vs having your system more accessible to new blood. I'd err on the side of accessibility to new blood.
And that attitude is the basis of just about every corporate suicide in the last 20 years. Star Wars is the most popular IP in the past 40 years, but it doesn't attract girls. So let's change it to appeal to girls... How did that work out?
Never chase new fans at the expense of the old fans...
Particularly the older, richer fans with plenty of disposable income.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on October 12, 2022, 09:05:56 PM
Quote from: Jaeger on October 12, 2022, 06:52:47 PM
As to splitting your network effect. It is a risk. The tradeoff is potentially alienating older customers, vs having your system more accessible to new blood. I'd err on the side of accessibility to new blood.
And that attitude is the basis of just about every corporate suicide in the last 20 years. Star Wars is the most popular IP in the past 40 years, but it doesn't attract girls. So let's change it to appeal to girls... How did that work out?
Never chase new fans at the expense of the old fans...
I remember when D&D move to ascending AC, and it totally tanked their sales. Oh, wait...
And movie Star Wars is a different animal to RPG Star Wars. Which is one of the evergreen RPG IP that sells well regardless of what system it uses. Form D6, d20 saga, to FFG's funky dice system. They all sold very well. On other forums I'd opine that FFG's star wars would have been more accessible if they used normal dice instead of the funky ones. I'd get shouted down by people pointing to the ICV2 RPG sales list...
Unless I sorely miss my guess, I doubt Amacris is going woke anytime soon. And you can make your game more accessible to newer players without alienating your old ones.
All I'm saying is that out of all the great ideas and content ACKS has, (and I own a few of the books, so I know). I don't see how using a boutique AC system that isn't used by any other OSR or original D&D game is a selling point that draws people in, or adds to backward compatibility with original BX/AD&D modules.
But my opinion is worth exactly what Amacris has paid for it, and he knows his steady sales audience far better than I do.
I also heard Harn, Palladium Books and Herogames are making tons of sales and lots of cash by targeting just the older fanbase.
Star Wars going woke seems like a weird comparison imo. Given they went out of their way to alienate older fans with the newer movies. Amaracis is has done neither.
The charm of odd mechanics is a strange thing. Many designers have gone overboard with it to the detriment of their games. You can take a game with too many of them and easily imagine it doing better with less of them. On the other hand, there's a line. Take out any 2 of 10 odd mechanics, probably make the game better. Reduce it down to 5 or 3, chances are some of the charm is going with it. It's more art than science.