I've played Shadowrun 2E (the Hebrew version of it), 3E and 4E; I've eventually sold most of the books but I want to get back to Shadowrun eventually.
The question is: is Shadowrun 5E worth my money? How good is its system? How much has it improved oner 4E?
Also, how does the 5E version of the Sixth World feel? I LOVED the 2E version of it, the 3E world was OK, but the 4E world felt a bit bland to me, especially since most of the cool plots (bug spirits, DEUS, Japanese occupation of California etc) were resolved and the cool Earthdawn crossover was more or less removed.
And how is the flavour? I loved the over-the-top pink-Mohawk retro-1980's feel of 2E...
Run as far as you can as fast as you can.
If what you liked about Shadowrun was the Sixth World, then play SR2/3, pour one out for the lost homies at FASA, and do 2064+ yourself.
Catalyst took the Sixth World, gave it a lobotomy, dressed it up in Transhumanist drag, curbstomped it, then raped the corpse and set it on fire.
I...like 5e more than 4e fluff-wise and mechanic wise(though 4e and 5e are quite similar in mechanics)-5e tried to go back to the old when it came to fluff.
However...after I really go back and revisit it? if you like 2e/3e fluff you're better off keeping with those. It's just so much more fun and honestly, even though some mechanics are certainly kludgy and dated(and some, like 3e's rigger/driving rules can make you pull your hair out), I actually kinda like *those* more as well at the end of the day. I love the old splats, and yeah-these days we're more 3e people(myself and my gaming buddies.) 2e fluff is definitely my all-time favorite; my favorite type of Shadowrun game uses 2e fluff and takes place between somewhere between 2050 and 2060, but 3e ruleset. (I do admit the 3e Comet times can be fun as well for some weird stuff. Beyond that though...)
I did give 5e a decent review as it did do some good things and it definitely fixed some of that 4e stuff and I really appreciate them trying to bring back some of the old stuff while adding some cool things like the Mentor Spirit bonuses for adepts-but at the end of the day, after really trying to mess with it, get into it, play it and think more about it I'm finding myself just floating more toward the 2e/3e days all out.
Quote from: CRKrueger;722446Run as far as you can as fast as you can.
If what you liked about Shadowrun was the Sixth World, then play SR2/3, pour one out for the lost homies at FASA, and do 2064+ yourself.
Catalyst took the Sixth World, gave it a lobotomy, dressed it up in Transhumanist drag, curbstomped it, then raped the corpse and set it on fire.
It's THAT bad? I almost purchased it!
No, really. Is it that bad?
There was a Hebrew version of 2e? That's...obscure
Quote from: Benoist;722484It's THAT bad? I almost purchased it!
No, really. Is it that bad?
5e is, again, IMO, better than 4e both fluff and mechanic wise.
That damage was done back in 4e, essentially. 5e basically tried to take the flaming corpse, extinguish it, and toss some nice shiny chrome limbs on it and give it a cyberdeck. It succeeded *somewhat*-about as good as it could given the extent of everything, but the 4e damage with the overall world, IMO, was already done at that point-which is why at the end I suggest 2e/3e. It all takes place 2065 and before-after that is when they decided to start newfangling the story and killing off all the old characters.
We've been playing it and the combat has so far seemed really slow and a bit too 'clever'... or something. There's some weird stuff with the way initiative works that nearly got half of us killed (it probably did kill us but our GM pulls his punches).
I'm not really enjoying it but I'm not yet sure why... I think I'd rather just be playing a straight cyberpunk game, or Eclipse Phase... this seems kinda in-between.
I'd suggest buying the Fourth Edition 20th Anniversary core rulebook and the Shadowrun 2050 supplement. It's the best of both worlds... an improved ruleset with the 2050s cyberpunk.
Quote from: TristramEvans;722485There was a Hebrew version of 2e? That's...obscure
Only edition of SR translated into Hebrew. The translation was not perfect, but it was OK, and it made the game accessible for us in Israel in the late 1990's, when getting RPG books from other countries was difficult (before the days of easy internet ordering). Even Earthdawn got a Hebrew version.
I personally still prefer the older rulset even then, but that's my tastes.I prefer the power level, the mechanics(Combat Pool and Karma Pool and all of that), as well as the old damage staging, and just the general overall feel of the system, even with its warts. I feel the attribute+skill method doesn't float my boat as much. (I will say 4e does cyberlimbs much better than the older editions.)
Quote from: Celestial;722508I'd suggest buying the Fourth Edition 20th Anniversary core rulebook and the Shadowrun 2050 supplement. It's the best of both worlds... an improved ruleset with the 2050s cyberpunk.
Might be the correct solution, then. It might have been a mistake to sell off the 4E stuff; now I'll buy it again, as well as the 2050 sourcebook. Maybe run a Bug City game? I still have the Bug City module at hand...
I don't care for the 4E version of the Sixth World, especially regarding how the killed off the Matrix and gave everyone an iPhone, and also resolved all the plots. They also killed half the interesting characters.
2072 is System Shock. 2052 is Shadowrun.
Quote from: Benoist;722484It's THAT bad? I almost purchased it!
No, really. Is it that bad?
You asked earlier how they got rid of the decker problem? They made deckers good in combat. You see, in 207x, having your nervous system replaced with wires and sections of your spine that the wires travel through replaced with superconducting materials only work together if your nerves and spine can talk to each other
wirelessly, so deckers can hack your cyberware.
The setting stuff really goes back to late 3rd, when FanPro was trying to keep it alive after all the old writers had gone. The Shadowtalk is a pale reflection of the FASA days, JackPoint sucks compared to ShadowLand, even though apparently someone knows what an onion router is (wow). It's gotta progressively worse when Catalyst almost went under, now the new blood writers don't even get right what Catalyst was doing with the reboot in 4e, let alone know what the hell was going on in the history.
Really, the end of 3rd, beginning of 4th is more like an alternate Earth in DC or Marvel or one of the many Hollywood remakes or TV reboots - the names are the same, but that's about it.
Imagine Salvatore getting the license to write 4th Age Middle Earth books.
Actually Ben, it's a lot like oWoD and nWoD in that everything is still there - kind of, it's just completely different. :D
The wireless rules were definitely not implemented well. Not fond of Limits either. If folk do play with 4e rukes, I suggest Karmagen for character creation-its much much better, IMO, than the 400 BP system which I found heavily flawed. Karmagen makes stuff cost the same out of the gate as later. You can easily use the Companion's karmagen system with 4A's costs.
And yeah, for me the omet was the cutoff, though 50-60 was the strongest. I didn't think Fanpro did terribly, but they started to run out of steam later. Which is why I still have all my old 2e splats.
"You asked earlier how they got rid of the decker problem?" Back in 4th Edition, they made the Matrix as user-friendly as operating systems are NOW.
Not a big fan of Limits, though.
JG
I ran 2E, 3E and 4E. I think that 4E is the easiest to run as a GM, but I have three main problems with it. The first is the VERY bland flavour of the setting (the setting is the main drawing point of SR for me). The second is the fact that everyone has an iPhone with WiFi which could be hacked, hell, cyberlimbs could be hacked, everything could be hacked which is a hell of a headache to adjudicate (plus modern hacking of iPhones by WiFi flies in the face of the old Shadowrun flavour). The third is that mages tend to be quite overpowered, especially with spirits in tow.
So my problem with 4E (or 5E?) is not the basic mechanics but the setting and technology. So maybe 4E-Aniversary Edition plus the 2050 sourcebook would be the solution for me.
I admit, SR is the one series where I'm the *closest* to an edition warrior that you can get without actually being one(because I don't actually hate 4e and will indeed play in it under certain circumstances; like being more 2050s, Karmagen, and some other things.)
I can't say it's a terrible system, but for me, it loses a lot of the aspects of 2e/3e that were even fun mechanically while it was streamlining(but I know how much gamers like streamlining so I can understand why it gets suggested a lot. Really, that's not even an insult to people who like streamlining, I like some smoother systems, I just don't think 2e/3e are beyond clunky or hard to teach, save Matrix and Rigging and even those are teachable in time.) There is no doubt the new Matrix is a lot better.
But the loss of the Magic fluff killed a lot for me(I liked Shamans/Hermetics as they were before, and while I could houserule it to be back to 2e/3e style, it was more work than I wanted to actually put in when I could just pick up an older edition.) The loss of Combat Pool I felt took away some fun strategies(also see Spell/Magic Pool, Astral Combat Pool, etc.) Lower die pools all around. Less emphasis on Attributes overall. 3e had some of this with the connecting skill, but it wasn't as bad as 4e, when they made them exceedingly over important and then wondered why people wanted to juice them at every possible chargen moment(all while charging an arm and a leg for them in game.)
I liked deriving Reaction from Intelligence and Quickness(since the stat is more of a 'combined' stat than a 'Physical' stat that 4e made it). Just a lot of odds and ends. SR2-3's Priority system was a good basic character generation system, and the Point Gen in the Companions in both editions was much better than 4e's overall(which was 'Dump 200 points into Attributes, go from there' due to the die pool system). BeCKs I felt, despite being a houseruled system, was a little better tuned than 4e's companion's Karmagen(with that being the best way to create a 4e character, since 4e's Priority system was pretty bad, IMO.)
There are a lot of things I feel 4e/4A missed the boat on. But, again, I understand people preferring a game with a simpler Matrix and die pool system(it IS easier to run), but in Shadowrun's case, I don't mind putting in the extra prepwork. (I also understand some people can't afford the time.)
I've stopped running Shadowrun in any Shadowrun system. I agree with a lot of folks in that I haven't enjoyed the way the setting has evolved. I also think that instead of improving upon earlier editions rulesets, 4E and later have largely replaced them, while only keeping some cosmetic similarities.
So instead of having to concern myself with new future history, I just set things where I want and how I want in whatever generic system I prefer. Recently it has been Savage Worlds, but I've also run it in Gurps and think most any decent generic system could likely handle it.
Which edition had all the super cool regional supplements like London in the Shadowrun verse and all that?
Quote from: Benoist;722721Which edition had all the super cool regional supplements like London in the Shadowrun verse and all that?
2nd and 3rd (mainly 2nd).
Quote from: Benoist;722721Which edition had all the super cool regional supplements like London in the Shadowrun verse and all that?
First and Second, had a lot. Stuff like London Sourcebook, Germany Sourcebook, Shadowbeat(Media), Neo-Anarchists Guide to North America, the two NAN sourcebooks were 1st edition. 2nd edition had stuff like Tir Tairngire, Tir na Nog, Denver, Cyberpirates, Aztlan, and the like. There were many more than that from the old days.
Later games had some as well-3rd had some cool stuff like Target: Wastelands which was stuff like the Desert, Arctic, and the like, it had Target. Awakened Lands(Australia), and Asia, Latin America, and Europe.
4e was severely lacking in cool location books. The ones they had IMO didn't hold a candle to the old, or even the 3e books.
So I guess I should just shoot to find a copy of 2e, if I like this type of stuff, eh?
The French Shadowrun must have been 2e.
2e is better than 1e, yes?
2e is much better than 1e, yes. 1e was the very rough first edition of it all.
IMO, 3e's overall system works just about like 2's but it's a bit more solid overall; However-2e-3e books are all pretty much compatible with each other. 1e's mechanics were similar but 2e cleaned up a lot over 1e. You can use any of the 1e location sourcebooks with no problems at all though.
Mechanically you can cross-pollenate 2e and 3e perfectly well; the differences are minor enough. We used to use 2e gear sourcebooks with 3e all the time, until 3e's came out.
Quote from: Brander;722714I've stopped running Shadowrun in any Shadowrun system. I agree with a lot of folks in that I haven't enjoyed the way the setting has evolved. I also think that instead of improving upon earlier editions rulesets, 4E and later have largely replaced them, while only keeping some cosmetic similarities.
So instead of having to concern myself with new future history, I just set things where I want and how I want in whatever generic system I prefer. Recently it has been Savage Worlds, but I've also run it in Gurps and think most any decent generic system could likely handle it.
This is me, basically.
After Shadowrun Returns came out I got a hankering to play some fantasy-spiked cyberpunk, so I just wrote my own (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/121828/Welcome-to-Neuro-City?manufacturers_id=4617) for AR/H&H instead.