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I'm looking for some advice on sandbox gaming.

Back when I started playing 40 years ago, I did plenty of sandbox gaming, because basically that's all I knew.  But then in my grad school days, I found games like WoD and started doing more "story-driven" gaming, which has occupied most of my gaming for 20 years.  Now that I'm planning on making my regular group's game an old-school sandbox, I'm finding that, as I think about it, I'm not sure I know how to best do certain things.

For example, I have my starting area hex map and I've chosen the starting town and placed a fitting "starter dungeon" nearby.  That's all easy.  But how many other plot threads/quest seeds should I throw out right away? Should such things arise only because the players are seeking something that requires me to come up with something or should they arise because the players seem to be floundering? Should the starter dungeon be sufficient, or should more seeds be scattered at the outset? I feel like these questions have easier answers than I think – I pray that I'm overthinking this, and I'm worried that I'll do too much "plotting" from the outset.

I'm also curious about "best practices" at the table.  How do you keep your random tables organized? A laptop or tablet at the table? Or do you keep only hard copies around? Is it OK for the players to realize that you are rolling on a random table in the moment?

What are your favorite sources for such tables?

I probably have more questions, but this will do for now.  Thanks.

My concept of a "sandbox" campaign is one where the players have choice, so I have a few tricks.

(1) When I make a campaign map, I like to put some interesting names on it. Players may say "hey, let's go check out the howling hills" and then I wing it to see what might be there.

(2) I like to have several rumors or possible plotlines worked out. Sometimes I put together something like a newspaper so that they can read and choose options.

(3) If nothing else, I like to drop a big hint that there is a Deep Dungeon full of loot in a certain location. Often they will choose to do that, which becomes a little linear but is their choice. If they go between the dungeon and the starting village, role play it out. Sometimes getting there is as much fun as the actual planned encounter.  :-)

Above all, don't stress. Have a list of cool things they might try, but be ready for them to come up with something you didn't plan on and improvise along the way.

drkrash, starting tomorrow, I'm running a sandbox hexcrawl with my friends using Castles & Crusades.   This will be my first time doing such a game (and one of the few times I've ever gm'ed)  I picked up the d30 Sandbox Companion (http://www.newbigdragon.com/accessories.html) and like what i see- I'll be using it a bunch.  I'm using Rob Conley's Blackmarsh as a base, and just adding stuff from there.

I'll be peeking in at this thread to see what some of the other folks have to say :)

Do a rough outline of the area the players are likely to cover, not mapping everything or anything, but just notes for something to think on. Find some random encounter tables, fit the encounters to the outline if you can. If you have 10 strong adventure hooks, lead with the strongest, as the players often will take the first one that comes along, you only really need three or so, as others can be recursive to the first three. Skip boring stuff, like travel through areas where there is no encounter.

estar will have a post filled with extra links on this subject that will help immensely, wait for it.

Otherwise I recommend only a few major things to keep an eye on, and let most of your sandbox stay relatively open for players to putter and poke around in.

First, who's the Holders of Power in the region. Y'know, the ones who can bring armies (or their equivalent) to bear and enforce order. These individuals with their personality set the regional tone, and bat away truly dangerous contenders to their territory (or offer concessions to get them away, compromised, or else to control them).

Two things: first, they don't always show up in the players' lives -- they stay distant until times of major crises, or major rewards. This is to let the players have a chance to enjoy the world, and besides, how often does the everyday person meet with high level Holders of Power? They set the baseline security and attitude and then are conveniently distant until such time things are really, really bad, or really, really good. second, they are not pushovers -- or at the very least their organizational framework is not. If this sentence does not make sense to your sandbox: "I assassinated the Governor! That means I'm now the new governor!", then you have a cogent and lasting Holder of Power organization. This is important because your Holders of Power are not some tissue tiger authorities, to be kicked over as the players chew forth the rest of the scenery -- that way lies reskinned palette swap settings that have no coherent meaning to anyone involved, PCs or NPCs.

Second, you need a Rumor Board of Quests to give PCs alternate things to do besides "The One Main Dungeon." This has its corollary in that just like you should have more than one point of interest, you should have more than one ongoing event in the background. Variety is the spice of life, and it's better to have a buffet where players can take a break from the Main Course now and again.

Now, I do something a little differently from my experience of embedding Missions and Quests within a Sandbox. I offer an array of potential quest directions in the following session -- based on the consequences of the previous ones, naturally -- and let players select what their character would like to pursue in the future. In this way I am not over-preparing for every single hook and burning myself out. If the PCs induce heavy consequences, or have a Patron they need to keep happy, Quests can become Missions where they are assigned to the PCs and often need to be accomplished before too many free funtime quests are done.

Third, as for Best Practices & Random Tables, any method in which you feel most comfortable makes sense. Some people love their tablets. Some games are so gamebook heavy, PDF laden tablets seem like a necessity. Some dig index cards, paper, and folders. I keep my random tables inside my computer and print them out to be collected in a folder. That way I can edit or jot notes on the random table as necessary and later go back to update my files on the computer. It's just less things to carry and I don't have to worry about battery length, or any other CPU issue that can crop up.

As for it being OK for players to realize you are rolling a random table at the moment? Why would they overly care? Besides, I also use a GM Screen (I recommend making your own tailored to your campaign) and I don't tell players what I'm rolling the dice for at every moment -- sometimes I just like to roll dice, because reasons.

I'm running a RQ6 sandbox campaign now. One key item that I use is a list of rumors that the PCs overhear in a bar. Make up a list of stuff, some true, some not, that the PCs can pursue. Not just for the local area but far afield too.

1. The Priests of Orbo are looking for someone to investigate the ruins of an Orbo temple.
2. Drought has decreased grain yields in Brown Provence by 40%.
3. Princess Gwendy of House Thudder has gone missing. The Count is in a panic.
4. A convoy of 6 merchant vessels was attacked by something at sea, only 2 made it away.
Etc... add 20 more.

People seem to find my articles on how to make a fantasy sandbox useful. Also in Blackmarsh I wrote some basic tips for managing a sandbox campaign/

How to Make a Fantasy Sandbox (http://batintheattic.blogspot.com/2009/08/how-to-make-fantasy-sandbox.html)
Blackmarsh (http://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/blackmarsh_srd.zip)

Both are free to download.

There are a couple of approaches.

1: A mapped out region with things actively going on in the background wether the PCs interact with or not and will likely change based on any PC impacts on such ongoing activities.

2: A mapped out region and some starter quests for the PCs. But things develop on the fly from there based on what the PCs show interest in.

From the OPs description though one suggestion are NPCs that mention the locale. Or consider wether knowledge of this dungeon is common knowledge. Something one or more of the PCs would allready know? Other options are an encounter and the PCs can find a map or some notes on one of the bodies. Or rescue an NPC who has such info. And so on.

3: Totally on the fly, even the map develops from play.

4: Random gen for map or adventures or whatever. This style often melds into any of the above as needed.

Quote from: drkrash;897105I feel like these questions have easier answers than I think – I pray that I’m overthinking this, and I'm worried that I'll do too much "plotting" from the outset.

You're right when you think so, bro.

There's no such thing as hard numbers carved in stone, and even if they were, chances are that people you're gonna play with are "different". In fact, in addition to your own capabilities they are the most important factor determining the majority of "whats" and "whens".

Relax. Start easy. Don't plan much ahead. Have a few building blocks (events, NPCs, random encounters - some with no specific meaning and outcome) ready and use them every now and then. Observe reactions. Evolve the story into what seems to be most promising direction.

Everything's gonna be alright. :)

You don't want too much stuff at the start in terms of plot threads, but you do want an explorable environment.
What I found worked very well for me was a 1 mile/hex starter map set in a 15 miles/hex campaign setting (Wilderlands in this case) with a starter town containing the basics (NPCs, a lord, a temple, an inn, a market) and TWO large dungeons within a half day's travel (I used Caverns of Thracia & Dyson's Delve), with a bit of info on both, so right away the players had the idea it was up to them to choose where to go. Add some simple wandering monster/random encounter tables should the PCs go wandering overland.

I definitely think sandboxing is easier if you have a developed large-scale setting to put it in; World of Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, Primeval Thule, Mystara etc. But nearly all actual play will occur in a much smaller area. For that area you need (1) encounter tables, (2) dungeons and (3) some detailed NPCs. Everything else can develop from those; in particular plots & plans should develop upward from the NPCs - and from the PCs - not scripted as 'this is the campaign theme'.

Estar's links are gold, and required reading for anyone interested in sandboxing.

Here's another approach, more "quick-and-dirty":
https://alexschroeder.ch/wiki/Microlite_Campaign

Building on that:
http://www.welshpiper.com/hex-based-campaign-design-part-1/
http://www.welshpiper.com/hex-based-campaign-design-part-2/

Must-read: West Marches
http://arsludi.lamemage.com/index.php/78/grand-experiments-west-marches/
(I don't remember if this gets mentioned in Estar's links...)

Quote from: Opaopajr;897112estar will have a post filled with extra links on this subject that will help immensely, wait for it.

Nice one, I didn't even see this when I made my post.

So people don't have to dig though my Blackmarsh this is the relevant section which concisely summarizes much of what I say on sandbox campaigns.

Introduction
At the dawn of roleplaying, the campaign and its setting were already established.  One could say it preceded the RPG itself, as Dave Arneson adapted the ideas of Major David Wesely’s Braustein game for his Blackmoor campaign.  Slightly later, Gary Gygax created Greyhawk.  From the experience gained with these campaigns, the first roleplaying game was written.  In all the years since, the campaign has been the centerpiece.  Yet few roleplaying games included a fully useable campaign setting with their rules.  

The limits of roleplaying games are only bound by the collective imagination of the referee and his players.  But first time referees are often daunted not only by the effort needed to master the game rules, but also having to create a campaign setting.  Many have given the advice to start out small, to detail a town or village near a dungeon as the initial focus of the campaign.  As the referee gains experience, he can later expand into the surrounding wilderness, fleshing out the campaign setting with as much detail as he wishes.

As good as that advice is, it would help to have examples of what a fleshed out campaign would look like.  Blackmarsh is not meant to define the limits of older editions, but rather their possibilities, to show referees a way of organizing their own campaigns and finally as a source of inspiration.

Blackmarsh was designed to evoke the earliest campaigns of the world’s most popular roleplaying game.  It takes place amid a wilderness full of danger and the possibility of great treasure.  It is organized as a numbered hex grid with locales keyed to specific hexes.  Locales are described briefly in a paragraph or two.  Most locales are meant to serve as a springboard for the referee to create his own details.  In addition, geographical entities, organizations, and realms that span multiple hexes are described as well.  

The Hex Map
A grid of hexes, arranged in columns, make up the map.  The hex numbers are given in a four-digit format (1213, 0114, etc).  For example, 0211 means that it is in the "02" column (the 2nd column of the map) and is 11 hexes down.  Sometimes the hex number will not be clear because of the terrain in the hex.  In this case, you will need to count the hexes.  Each map hex is 5 miles.  

This system of using hex numbers allows a referee to quickly find the locales on the map and what is near a location.  This helps keep the map uncluttered and easy to read.  Geographical features are composed of multiple hexes and are labeled directly on the map.  They are listed alphabetically in that map’s chapter.

Adventuring Advice
This format is designed to make it easy to referee players as they explore the world.  With a list of locales, it is easy for the referee to determine what is over the next hill and what possible challenges the players might face.  In addition, since the players can largely be left to their own devices, this format allows the referee more time to focus on the core adventures in his campaign.

Not every hex location has a description, and the background information is only meant to be a loose framework.  Referees are encouraged to add material and make the setting unique to their campaigns.

It is suggested that to get maximum use of this setting that the referee look over the locales, then chose the ones that best suit the campaign.  Note the NPCs and their circumstances.  Develop a timeline of events as if the characters are not involved.  Detail important locales and add new ones of your own design.  Do the same for the NPCs, and make notes on their motivations and personalities.

After each session of the campaign, review what the players did.  Look at your original timeline of events, see what impact their actions had, and make the needed changes.  Sometimes the players’ actions will lead to a new and unexpected chain of events.  

The creativity of the referee comes by not forcing his players to follow a predetermined story, but to develop new and interesting consequences based on the players’ actions.  Use the NPC’s motivations and personalities to decide which consequences are the most likely and pick the most interesting.

The result is a campaign where the players feel they are forging their character’s destiny within a living, breathing world.  It will not only be fun and adventurous, but also filled with surprises.  Consequences will accumulate and spin the campaign into unexpected directions.

That helps because I wasn't able to DL Blackmarsh.  I have a lot of reading to do! (And then probably more questions.)

Quote from: drkrash;897178That helps because I wasn't able to DL Blackmarsh.  I have a lot of reading to do! (And then probably more questions.)

Mmmm, interesting oh well you can get it for free at RPGNow. And if you wind up liking it a lot I have a print version up there as well. But that not free but pretty darn inexpensive.
http://www.rpgnow.com/product/89944/Blackmarsh

Over the last 9 years or so, I've been playing - with roughly the same core group of players - in three sandbox campaigns I really enjoyed. Based on those experiences, here are a couple of thoughts:

- Don't feel beholden to dungeoncrawling.

There's a strong current of groupthinking in old school D&D circles which states that dungeons should be the main thing in a campaign. From this follows that the main thing in a sandbox campaign is that you're crawling dungeons, and it's "sandbox" because you get to choose which dungeon to crawl. Well, that's wrong.
In our 9 years and three campaigns, we've explored exotic islands full of dangers, mysteries and riches, saved imperilled communities (once retroactivelly, centuries after their actual demise), upset the balance of power between the potentates and master schemers of bustling cities, helped a coup inside a powerful dark cult, sought out an artifact that could save or doom a world, went from vagrants to fugitives to grand heroes, and are presently trying to save 17th century Switzerland from a Templar vampire and the army of the Damned.
And all through this, dungeon delving was almost always on the sidelines, at best. Sure, there were various enclosed locations like mansions, temples, fortresses, caves and the like, and these saw quite a bit of action. But actual, traditional dungeons - large, topographically complex, enclosed adventuring areas with a self-serving reason of existence (i.e., they exist so they can be explored, and the party explores them because they are there) -, while not completely absent, were certainly limited in the presence, and when we went there, it was almost always in support of our wider goals and activities: we didn't explore them because they were there, but because finding something or someone or someplace was a tool we wanted to achieve something else.


- Sometimes it's okay to narrow down the sandbox.

Several times our campaigns were losing focus. Instead of having some sort of reasonably clear-cut goal or motivation, we would end up going into a dungeon - or sailing to a new island - just because it was there. At these points, the DM always introduced a new event, factor or plot that somewhat reduced our freedom (to putter about aimlessly, as it were), but which also gave us a new, clear focus - which we could then tackle in a free, sandboxy manner.

- Adventure hooks.

Since you specifically asked, I think it's totally fine to start a sandbox campaign with a single preset adventure which established the party (they got into this situation together), and which can be followed up later if they choose to do so. (Ok, the evil wizard is dead, but his plan might have already been set into motion. Or maybe this enemy of his you've learned about might want to reward you. Or maybe that artifact you took from him coild be investigated, it might come in handy.) Also have maybe 3-4 hooks for small, relatively simple things which the players might or might not bite on, and which might or might not lead into greater things. The sort of thing the party might learn via rumours: two rival alchemists are having a spat over some matter. A group of religious fanatics is looking for mercenaries for some undisclosed work. A noble has a magical ship in harbour that travels without sails, oars or crew.

In general, a good sandbox isn't one where you can ostensibly do anything but in reality will end up just going to the dungeon because you can't think of anything else to do; it's one where there are always things - possibly simple, but still handcrafted, DM-designed things - to do, which can be approached in numerous ways and freely taken up or dropped.

I have been running my Ogre Gate games mainly as sandbox for the past two years. I would be reluctant to label them pure sandbox. So take my advice with that in mind.

I've benefited a lot from Estar's posts on the subject. I have never run into problems employing his ideas.

What I would emphasize is the importance of tracking NPCs. Failing to track information about NPCs was the one thing that led to issues for me. At first I had individual entries on each NPC. I still do but I found having a master table with every NPC on it where I track ongoing developments to be the best solution. I don't keep stats here. I just add a sentence or two any time something new happens with them. You'd be surprised how easily you can forget very basic things (like is this guy alive or dead) if you don't track it consistently.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;897189I have been running my Ogre Gate games mainly as sandbox for the past two years. I would be reluctant to label them pure sandbox. So take my advice with that in mind.

I've benefited a lot from Estar's posts on the subject. I have never run into problems employing his ideas.

What I would emphasize is the importance of tracking NPCs. Failing to track information about NPCs was the one thing that led to issues for me. At first I had individual entries on each NPC. I still do but I found having a master table with every NPC on it where I track ongoing developments to be the best solution. I don't keep stats here. I just add a sentence or two any time something new happens with them. You'd be surprised how easily you can forget very basic things (like is this guy alive or dead) if you don't track it consistently.

I heartily second this. I keep a google spreadsheet that has a master list of NPCs, with columns for their disposition toward the PCs, if the PCs have encountered them yet, where first met, etc. and of course a comments column pulling up the rear.  

I also recommend pulling the ideas of Fronts from Dungeon World for sandboxing.  It's specifically helpful when you want your NPCs/organizations to be active and progressing, whether the players are involved or not, but don't want to try to play it out in minutiae on the backstage.

I've got a few blog links of my own bearing on the subject:

Opening Gambit: Your town and its NPCs (http://ravenswing59.blogspot.com/2013/10/starting-from-scratch-pt-i.html)
Faith Manages: Designing religions  (http://ravenswing59.blogspot.com/2013/10/starting-from-scratch-pt-ii-wednesdays.html)
Setting The Table: Party composition and equipment (http://ravenswing59.blogspot.com/2013/10/starting-from-scratch-pt-iii-wednesdays.html)
The Appetizer Round: Tips on portraying NPCs (http://ravenswing59.blogspot.com/2013/12/starting-from-scratch-pt-iv.html)
The Main Course: Your First Adventure (http://ravenswing59.blogspot.com/2014/02/starting-from-scratch-pt-v.html)
The Dessert Round: Random tips and suggestions  (http://ravenswing59.blogspot.com/2014/03/starting-from-scratch-pt-vi.html)

Medieval Demographics Done RIGHT (Pt II) (http://ravenswing59.blogspot.com/2013/10/medieval-demographics-done-right-pt-ii.html)
Need a quick scenario? Stuff You Can Use (http://ravenswing59.blogspot.com/2014/09/need-quick-scenario-stuff-you-can-use.html)

... a few extra thoughts.

* First off, you know your players.  We don't.  We have no idea whether they're used to being led around by the nose, and how proactive they're likely to be in chasing leads.  Our advice on the subject is going to be dependent on what problems crop up.  But in the end, the bottom line is whether everyone's having fun or not.  There's no Holy Ordinance of Sandboxing which decrees that campaigns have to produce X number of plot hooks, for instance; the "proper" number is the number your players find interesting.

* Secondly, you know you; we don't.  Now me, I game in a relatively cramped area where all the players use laptops, and my scope for electronics of my own is nil, even if I didn't prefer printed material on dead trees.  I've always disliked GM "shields" as creating an artificial barrier between me and the players, besides which I game from my living room, and am in my comfortable armchair; it wouldn't be ergonomic anyway.  So where I stick my random and not-so-random tables is in a three-ring binder, close to hand.

But that's me.  You've got a much better handle on your comfort zone than we do.

* NPCs: following up on Opaopajr's comment, something that bugs the hell out of me in many commercial RPG products is their mania for statting out not only movers and shakers, but to give full stat blocks for local businessmen.  While I linked to my blog post on the subject above, I think this bit's worth emphasizing:

QuoteBusinesses?  Well, you've got my previous article on town building.  Write a paragraph or two on each.  Here's an example from a small village in my campaign:

Sign of the Red and Blue Pot: With the death of the previous owner, her last surviving relative by marriage, a foreigner, Kesem kin Swallowflame, has taken over this well-stocked general store, which has a good array of housewares, tools, bulk grain and provisions, and textiles.  While he is a decent enough merchant (-13, various scholarly subjects-14/15), he has been trained to a scholarly life and educated at a great university, and somewhat resents having to take a menial job in the countryside.   Postings for foreign philosophers are not plentiful, but Kesem still pours his meager profits –- he's wont to let customers run up a tab –- into books brought in from the capital, trying to keep up with new teachings and still hopeful of scholarly preference.

And there you have it.  What, no stat block?  No weapons skills?  No magical items?  Of course not.  The PCs aren't going to fight this guy, and we don't care what his Health or Move are, whether he has Climbing skill, or how much damage he can do if he clouts you over the head with that grain flail leaning up against the corner.  What they're going to want from him is to fill up their packs with smoked sausage and biscuit for their adventure into the forest, and if they find out he's a wannabe scholar, whether he can read that weird text they found.  What you're going to need from him is an insight into his personality so that you can play him effectively as a vivid NPC, and we can all see the image that arises: a fellow starting to show grey hairs, somewhat fussy, somewhat distracted, somewhat irritable, possibly dressed grander (if shabbier) than the village standard, always with his nose in a book, and excited only when travelers come through town with books to sell.

And heck ... if he does need to fight, a GM ought to be able to determine, very quickly, the combat stats for an average villager.  Using GURPS, average stats are 10, so if Kesem trains once a month with the village militia, he may well have ST 10, DX 10, HT 10, a Speed of 5.5, a Spear skill of 12, with (say) a leather jerkin for armor (DR 1), a Parry of 9, and does 1d-1 HT of damage with a successful thrust.  Those details, including the time it took me to type them, took me 35 seconds to work out.  So why not establish that as the standard if you need to work up the mook villagers for that large-scale bandit raid?  A strong villager?  ST 12, and that damage is 1d HT instead of 1d-1.  A nimble villager?  DX 12, and that Spear skill becomes -14, her Speed becomes 6, her Parry becomes 10, and suddenly she's a legitimate threat in a fight.  There.  That's all you need.

And that's also the sort of NPC for whom you want to work out a paragraph or two.  The players aren't going to be interacting with the Queen of Warwik (and indeed, it took eight years for anyone to meet the monarch); they're going to get jobs from local lords or the deputy Chancellor's spymaster.  The players aren't going to be interacting with the Commander of the capital city's militia; they're going to want to know about the lieutenant commanding the night watch of the district in which their inn is located.  They might never meet with the Maid In Black, the matriarch of the faith of the Night Goddess, over there in the grand basilica.  They will meet Mother Ginevra, the parish priestess at St. Taria's, kitty-cornered across from the aforementioned inn.

I have a Fantasy Demographics (http://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/Fantasy%20Demographics%20Version%201.pdf) which is my take on the data that S John Ross used for Medieval Demographics (http://www222.pair.com/sjohn/blueroom/demog.htm).

Quote from: estar;897251I have a Fantasy Demographics (http://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/Fantasy%20Demographics%20Version%201.pdf) which is my take on the data that S John Ross used for Medieval Demographics (http://www222.pair.com/sjohn/blueroom/demog.htm).

It's a slightly better list than Ross', but not by much, I'm afraid. My full-scale rebuttal of Ross is here (http://ravenswing59.blogspot.com/2013/10/medieval-demographics-done-right.html), but the TL;DR version is that (a) the "Paris tax roll" list was quite incomplete, and (b) edited down by the 19th century compiler, who (c) never intended it as an actual business list, and which (d) relied on one of the most atypical cities extant for the numbers.

Your own list shows the danger of the plug-and-play method.  Seaports were dominated by maritime trades, and generally speaking about two-thirds of the businesses in any port town were related.  Using a river port a hundred river miles from the sea to gauge the numbers of sailors, shipwrights, chandlers and harbor pilots, even if you presume these were all guilded tax payers, which they of course weren't?

Quote from: Ravenswing;897316It's a slightly better list than Ross', but not by much, I'm afraid. My full-scale rebuttal of Ross is here (http://ravenswing59.blogspot.com/2013/10/medieval-demographics-done-right.html), but the TL;DR version is that (a) the "Paris tax roll" list was quite incomplete, and (b) edited down by the 19th century compiler, who (c) never intended it as an actual business list, and which (d) relied on one of the most atypical cities extant for the numbers.

I agree the Paris tax roll stuff isn't much use. The population density stuff is good though.

What I've learned from my last three sandbox campaigns:

(1) When returning to the sandbox, start with a smaller one (e.g. duchy, regional, or town and environs).

(2) Make it dense with adventuring opportunities, big and small. Players should stumble upon them everywhere.

(3) Use a lot of randomisers, utilise weather, make the sandbox breathe.

ADDENDUM: estar's Majestic Wilderlands and Blackmarsh are a great resource for specific hex-encounters, so are his Points of Light game supplements (via Goodman Games). Old Judges Guild stuff of course (Wilderlands of High Fantasy, Fantastic Wilderlands Beyonde). I would highly recommend the Midkemia city supplement if you wanna run ad hoc town encounters, otherwise Vornheim has served me well.

Quote from: Nerzenjäger;897335What I've learned from my last three sandbox campaigns:

(1) When returning to the sandbox, start with a smaller one (e.g. duchy, regional, or town and environs).

(2) Make it dense with adventuring opportunities, big and small. Players should stumble upon them everywhere.

(3) Use a lot of randomisers, utilise weather, make the sandbox breathe.

ADDENDUM: estar's Majestic Wilderlands and Blackmarsh are a great resource for specific hex-encounters, so are his Points of Light game supplements (via Goodman Games). Old Judges Guild stuff of course (Wilderlands of High Fantasy, Fantastic Wilderlands Beyonde). I would highly recommend the Midkemia city supplement if you wanna run ad hoc town encounters, otherwise Vornheim has served me well.

That's all very true. You need a keyed map with adventure sites (at least two to start with), plus tables for procedural content generation - wandering monster especially. For weather I just roll a d6, 1=wetest, 6=dryest, the specifics depending on the season. The d6 is your friend.

Quote from: Nerzenjäger;897335I would highly recommend the Midkemia city supplement if you wanna run ad hoc town encounters

I would too, if you can get your hands on it.  It's not only keyed per wealth and type of district -- you'll get different selections in a poor industrial area than in the high rent district -- but they're not the goofy type of 70s urban encounters where all of a sudden a horde of monsters are loose on a quiet city street.

Quote from: Ravenswing;897316It's a slightly better list than Ross', but not by much, I'm afraid. My full-scale rebuttal of Ross is here (http://ravenswing59.blogspot.com/2013/10/medieval-demographics-done-right.html), but the TL;DR version is that (a) the "Paris tax roll" list was quite incomplete, and (b) edited down by the 19th century compiler, who (c) never intended it as an actual business list, and which (d) relied on one of the most atypical cities extant for the numbers.

Your own list shows the danger of the plug-and-play method.  Seaports were dominated by maritime trades, and generally speaking about two-thirds of the businesses in any port town were related.  Using a river port a hundred river miles from the sea to gauge the numbers of sailors, shipwrights, chandlers and harbor pilots, even if you presume these were all guilded tax payers, which they of course weren't?

I am well aware of the issues involved. Hence the title Fantasy Demographics. Within the document I pointed out that my categories were quite arbitrary and designed to be gamable within a fantasy campaign. The goal to make something that within the ballpark and usable for the average referee. Not that it is historically accurate, otherwise I would have done was S John Ross had done is present it a reflection of medieval life.

Also I read your rebuttal post when you pointed it out the last time and obtained some of the books on the list. While interesting to read, I like reading history books, it not straightforward as to how you get the numbers you need from it. You have to do some extensive scholarship and even then make more than a few judgement call to make it usable for what is a leisure activity.

Even then, all the historical numbers point to a higher population at a higher density than your typical fantasy campaign. While accurate, the result in my opinion is not very gamable for a typical D&Dish fantasy campaign. It needs to be ratcheted down by a least an order of magnitude. This way you get area of dense civilization but there is plenty of wilderness and the actual number of high status individual (feudal nobles, merchant magnates, etc) is more managable.

This is why I wrote Fantasy Demographics, the catagories that S John Ross used in my opinion were not well suited for a typical fantasy campaign. So I used the categories, I developed for my Majestic Wilderlands and recalculated the numbers.

In my rough draft of "How to make a Fantasy Sandbox." I have the same list of professions  but now there are multiple lists to account for specific circumstances. The numbers have been arbitrarily shuffled to reflect my sense of how a seaport differs from a rive town which differs from a town on the Silk Road, etc, etc. This is based on what I read in my history books including the one I read from your lists.

If I was writing for a game whose appeal rest on historical accuracy then your criticism is on point. However what being done is to be make thing that is consistent, in the ballpark, and above usable by the average referee.

Quote from: Ravenswing;897359I would too, if you can get your hands on it.  It's not only keyed per wealth and type of district -- you'll get different selections in a poor industrial area than in the high rent district -- but they're not the goofy type of 70s urban encounters where all of a sudden a horde of monsters are loose on a quiet city street.

For who want the Midkemia city supplement (http://www.midkemia.com/HomePage/Products.html) you can get it here (http://www.midkemia.com/HomePage/OrderForm.html) in PDF form.

However I STRONGLY recommend getting the app (android, mac, windows). There are a ton of tables and not well suited for use during a tabletop session. If you don't want the app, then just roll up 50 encounters for each categories before.  However it because of all the tables that it is so good. It really adds something to trying to referee the life of a fantasy city.

It also has a village generation system and a excellent set of rules for managing down-time between adventures.

My advice is a GM should talk with their players about a sandbox campaign beforehand and get the players buy-in to the concept. I believe that would alleviate much of the problems with sandbox campaigns upfront.

The biggest issue I have found in sandbox campaigns is that players are required to be proactive for the campaign to work, and I find that most players are not very proactive.

Instead of a pure sandbox, I prefer to run "theme" sandboxes to create motivation for the PCs.

My Mazes & Minotaurs campaign was a sandbox in an archipelago, AKA islands instead of hexes. The premise was Athens was suddenly frozen in time, every living thing was frozen in stasis, as was anything entering the city. Even the gods were dumbstruck until the Oracle of Delphi prophesied the cure for Athens would be found in vanished archipelago which Neptune confirmed had suddenly appeared. The heroes were tasked by the gods to search these mystery islands and free Athens from its terrible curse.

Thus, I gave the players a week-to-week motivation (save Athens) while giving them full autonomy to cruise around the islands (hexcrawl) picking up clues and going on various side adventures. Replacement PCs were easy as the heroes came along with several support ships where new fresh PCs could be plucked. Other heroes from across Greece also heeded the gods call as potential allies and of course, there were evil Greeks who wanted Athens to stay in stasis so their cities would rise in prominence who sent their own assassins to stop our heroes.
 
In the 90s, I ran a CoC  campaign where a bunch of PCs suffered nightmares of an Old One destroying New York on the dawn of the Winter Equinox. The PCs meet each other in the Arkham Sanitarium because of their nightmares drove them temporarily insane, and now they have sworn to sacrifice everything to save New York from destruction. I didn't provide any direction for them, just the concept and let them do whatever and go wherever. But that was a proactive player group.

Quote from: Spinachcat;897417The biggest issue I have found in sandbox campaigns is that players are required to be proactive for the campaign to work, and I find that most players are not very proactive.

That's why I run a pure sandbox with an overabundance of adventuring opportunities, where they almost can't escape the open threads laid out everywhere. When running it for players without sandbox experience, this makes it seem like some of them matter more than others, just like in a more linear approach. In reality, they really don't. What I then often find is, that the players usually want to go back to pursue other tasks they missed out on because they went after something of more immediate interest. Though of course that's not to say that the pure sandbox can't have NPCs with enough power and an agenda that dwarves other happenings in terms of impact.

Quote from: estarHowever I STRONGLY recommend getting the app (android, mac, windows). There are a ton of tables and not well suited for use during a tabletop session. If you don't want the app, then just roll up 50 encounters for each categories before. However it because of all the tables that it is so good. It really adds something to trying to referee the life of a fantasy city.

Again, estar to the rescue! I had no idea there's an app for that. Thank you. I bought the PDF years ago and it's good enough, but the app makes using that thing way easier.

About Bookkeeping NPC, absolutely essential because we can't remember everything and consequences (either from PCs or NPCs or world events) makes a world breathe. Great advice that I would like to repeat for emphasis. However I would also like to indulge in expanding good practices to make your GM life easier:

1. Not everyone needs to be on an Index Card (my jargon for NPC bookkeeping), i.e. not everyone is important to the players to warrant even a proper name. Tragically this also means that what you feel is interesting won't necessarily accord with what they feel is interesting. We are finite beings with finite processing power, sometimes it's OK for the bartender to just be addressed as "The Bartender."

First Corollary: Powerful persons/organizations that can fuck you up good if you step out of line, e.g. Holders of Power, do warrant an Index Card even if your players are not going to meet them... yet.

Second Corollary: Powerless, or less powerful, persons/organizations that consistently receive Active Player Attention (not perfunctory transactions) eventually DO warrant an Index Card. Sometimes players say through in-game action who they are interested in developing deeper roleplaying relationships.

2. Not everyone needs to ever have Stats, including those with an Index Card. Ravenwing hits on this major pitfall of overprepping: statting the known universe. The game, ideally, is not a test of character generation system mastery with every encounter a spreadsheet white room arena duel. Repeat that previous line openly to players who "don't get it"; it's perfectly OK to 'fire a player from your table' if their idea of "RPG fun" is not to play a role in your game world, but to merely battle out spreadsheets like Pokémon. This touches upon Spinachcat's comment on getting everyone on the same page first, and carries into the next part about active/passive players.

3. Index Carded NPCs should have some volition of their own, to breathe. This keeps the world in motion while the PCs are away. This is also there to respond to the passive player who doesn't instigate the necessary interaction with a sandbox. The active player will likely thrive in a sandbox -- there are a few issues, but for the most part it's positive -- the passive player can peter out a sandbox tout de suite.

This is where an NPC's Reaction Rolls, Rumors, Goals, Personality, et cetera, saves you from just having a staring contest at the table. If they're not active, they sure as hell are likely reactive (if they have a pulse and want to be at the table at all), so those NPC Index Card notes save you so as to improvise Active NPC Stimuli upon the passive PC. This can be good or bad, and that's what content generators (Reaction Rolls, Random Tables of Stuff, etc.) are for, but regardless they are never to be used to be indifferent and maintain the passive status quo.

We all bookkeep in our own way, but to illustrate an old example I'll repost. It does several things, quick improvisational summary of NPC, goals for long term volition, jobs & routines for easy PC access, relationships for social web volition, and news rumors and quests to feed PCs if they're stuck and bored (secrets are easter egg rewards for deeper interaction):

Quote from: Opaopajr;831709Grab a 3x5" index card, scribble known details about the NPC (name, looks, 3 adjective personality...) and then separate a section for each tasks/routine, goals, and relationships. On the reverse, save for current news, quests, & secrets. Update accordingly, get in its headspace, and let loose.

i.e.:

Carlotta Duriel
wild, curly-haired brunette with fiery black eyes and commanding alto voice.
personality: passionate, quick-tempered, brooding.
job & routine: gunsmith, store open from M-F 10am to 6pm.
goal: match the quality workmanship of her grandfather.
relationships: Guillarme, silversmith --, Marquis Lac -, Duphrain, sheriff /, Lady Helene +, Armand, famed duelist ++. PC +.

(reverse)
news: mahogany gun handle shipment delayed.
rumors: Marquis Lac deliberately funds bandits to disrupt this town.
quests: a) find another source of good hardwood, fast! b) find evidence for truth in Marquis Lac and bandits rumor.
secrets: shot her last lover in the heat of jealous passion. she visits a lovely grave in the next county annually because of remorse.

Write it in pencil, edit regularly when they encounter each other, and let it flow organically. At worst, when the romance peters out or fails, you have a fleshed NPC and contact source.

Quote from: estar;897360(snip)

Well, but here's the rub.  If your aim is to be accurate, then strive to be accurate.  If your working premise is "It's fantasy/gaming fun so we don't have to bother with that stuff," then why are we fooling with data or ratios at all?  Just say "There are 1d4 blacksmiths, 1d6 bakers and 2d6 magic item shops, etc.," and have done with it.  It's a great deal easier, a great deal cleaner, and a good bit less confusing.

Of course most gamers don't give a damn.  (Heck, most gamers are perfectly happy to run settings right out of the shrink wrap, and not worry about the subject at all.)  Those aren't the people for whom such articles and blogposts are written.

Quote from: Ravenswing;897613Well, but here's the rub.  If your aim is to be accurate, then strive to be accurate.  If your working premise is "It's fantasy/gaming fun so we don't have to bother with that stuff," then why are we fooling with data or ratios at all?  Just say "There are 1d4 blacksmiths, 1d6 bakers and 2d6 magic item shops, etc.," and have done with it.  It's a great deal easier, a great deal cleaner, and a good bit less confusing.

Of course most gamers don't give a damn.  (Heck, most gamers are perfectly happy to run settings right out of the shrink wrap, and not worry about the subject at all.)  Those aren't the people for whom such articles and blogposts are written.

It has to do with the managing life of the setting, being consistent, but allowing for variations, and not to have to come up with a specific list from scratch every single damn time. The problem with saying there is 1d4 blacksmith etc is that it doesn't scale well between the different settlement size. You wind up with multiple lists for each size category. Then you will have to rinse and repeat if you want to vary it between type of settlement. (Seaport vs. Inland etc). My approach is not meant for guy who wants to make a town, dungeon, and a wilderness and call it a say. It is meant to sit between that and going the fullblown Harn, Tekemul, Glorantha route.

S John Ross approach means you have one table for each type of settlement that works regardless of the size of the settlement. So then you focus on providing alternative to account for that seaports are different than inland cities which are different than desert cities, etc. This is why instead of just completely duplicating his work, I instead modified it to work with the price list I posted.

Finally as a general comment on using any algorithm or table to generate random content it is best used as a baseline starting point. The point isn't to spit out ready to run content. The point is to cover the 80% of a locale that you have no particular idea or preference as to what goes in there.

Quote from: Ravenswing;897613

Of course most gamers don't give a damn.  (Heck, most gamers are perfectly happy to run settings right out of the shrink wrap, and not worry about the subject at all.)  Those aren't the people for whom such articles and blogposts are written.

Heck, most medievalists don't care that much about medieval demography, let alone gamers. That is a very niche area of study, even among experts. I took three or four medieval history courses in college and the closest we got to demography was during a section on the black death. I've got shelves of history books and very few of them get into historical demography (and usually it is very focused, like trying to determine the number of aristocratic families in a particular region of China of the course of two centuries).

Personally though I can see the point of bringing in real data though as a starting point and then working it into something the feels more gameable.

Some cool stuff in this thread. I'm not the OP nor am I running a fantasy sandbox at the moment but I am taking note for the next time the gang of hobbits gets together to wreak havoc in the realms.

Maybe someone also noted up thread, but it also useful before the game play begins to have the players work up what their characters' connections are to each other, something I try to always do ever since I came across it in the old WEG Star Wars RPG. saves you from "you meet in a tavern" and other hoary clichés, unless you want that.

Quote from: estar;897360I am well aware of the issues involved. Hence the title Fantasy Demographics. Within the document I pointed out that my categories were quite arbitrary and designed to be gamable within a fantasy campaign. The goal to make something that within the ballpark and usable for the average referee. Not that it is historically accurate, otherwise I would have done was S John Ross had done is present it a reflection of medieval life.

Also I read your rebuttal post when you pointed it out the last time and obtained some of the books on the list. While interesting to read, I like reading history books, it not straightforward as to how you get the numbers you need from it. You have to do some extensive scholarship and even then make more than a few judgement call to make it usable for what is a leisure activity.

Even then, all the historical numbers point to a higher population at a higher density than your typical fantasy campaign. While accurate, the result in my opinion is not very gamable for a typical D&Dish fantasy campaign. It needs to be ratcheted down by a least an order of magnitude. This way you get area of dense civilization but there is plenty of wilderness and the actual number of high status individual (feudal nobles, merchant magnates, etc) is more managable.

This is why I wrote Fantasy Demographics, the catagories that S John Ross used in my opinion were not well suited for a typical fantasy campaign. So I used the categories, I developed for my Majestic Wilderlands and recalculated the numbers.

In my rough draft of "How to make a Fantasy Sandbox." I have the same list of professions  but now there are multiple lists to account for specific circumstances. The numbers have been arbitrarily shuffled to reflect my sense of how a seaport differs from a rive town which differs from a town on the Silk Road, etc, etc. This is based on what I read in my history books including the one I read from your lists.

If I was writing for a game whose appeal rest on historical accuracy then your criticism is on point. However what being done is to be make thing that is consistent, in the ballpark, and above usable by the average referee.

First: you have a much lower opinion of the "average Referee" than I do:).

Second: If you're not aiming for historical accuracy, then why would you need any historical data? Shuffle them arbitrarily, as you said you've been doing! Do that until you get numbers that make sense to you, given the kind of campaign you're running.

Then, in the case of market-related items, roll a d30-d30 and add it to the result to determine shortages or overabundance. The first results in higher prices, the latter results in lower prices only if you get a quantity, but for the same prices you get higher average quality;).

There's no need for long essays, though, just explain to Referees what they need for D&Dish campaigns and let them adjust.

And my advice badly needs being reformatted, but since it's posted on TBP, I don't get to edit:).

https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?580891-Lazily-GMing-a-sandbox-campaign

Have fun;)!

Quote from: AsenRG;897711First: you have a much lower opinion of the "average Referee" than I do:).

Quote from: AsenRG;897711There's no need for long essays, though, just explain to Referees what they need for D&Dish campaigns and let them adjust.

I don' t think the average referee is interested in doing research into obscure primary resources in other languages to come up with a random table. I think they are a tad more interested in just getting on with their campaign. But would like a tad more support than somebody telling them "Make up whatever shit feels right to you."

In all seriousness, my view of how this stuff works is that you got the guys who are utterly comfortable with making stuff on the fly all the time and it works well for them. At the other extreme you got guys who need a rule for everything they make or do. There is a broad middle where people desire varying levels of support for what they want to make. And to make it more complex, in some areas (for example NPC generation) they totally got it for making it up on the fly. But in other areas (perhaps making a dungeon level or a wilderness) they desire some explicit guideline as a starting point. I wrote Fantasy Demographic targeted at that middle.

So while for you it is an overly long essay that has little use, it wasn't for the thousands who downloaded it since I posted it a couple of years back. And who are still downloading it and who still send the occasional email telling me how useful it is.

Quote from: AsenRG;897711Second: If you're not aiming for historical accuracy, then why would you need any historical data? Shuffle them arbitrarily, as you said you've been doing! Do that until you get numbers that make sense to you, given the kind of campaign you're running.

I don't how many I have to repeat, so that it within the ballpark of reality. So the Paris Tax Rolls is only for one place in one year of a 1,000 year medieval period. Maybe what being counted is just their last name. Regardless it is a piece of hard data that is accessible to me as a STARTING POINT. I combine that was the less specific stuff I know about the medieval era to produce something that looks plausible for a fantasy medieval setting. Tabletop roleplaying is about about taking a bunch of stuff from reality, and legends shaking it all up and making something fun and interesting.

Quote from: AsenRG;897711Then, in the case of market-related items, roll a d30-d30 and add it to the result to determine shortages or overabundance. The first results in higher prices, the latter results in lower prices only if you get a quantity, but for the same prices you get higher average quality;).

The point is generate a number of businesses to use to generate a bunch of NPCs to make a locale come to life for the players of the campaign. While yes if a town has a lot of tailors or a lack thereof it would makes sense that the price of clothing would effected but another issues than the one I am addressing with Fantasy Demographics..

Quote from: estar;897750I don't how many I have to repeat, so that it within the ballpark of reality. So the Paris Tax Rolls is only for one place in one year of a 1,000 year medieval period. Maybe what being counted is just their last name. Regardless it is a piece of hard data that is accessible to me as a STARTING POINT. I combine that was the less specific stuff I know about the medieval era to produce something that looks plausible for a fantasy medieval setting. Tabletop roleplaying is about about taking a bunch of stuff from reality, and legends shaking it all up and making something fun and interesting.
.

There is also a time management issue here too. I have used a lot of primary sources in my campaigns and as a basis for information in thing's I've published. But for things like equipment, pricing, demographics, that stuff can get pretty involved. I'm fine using these documents as a starting point. I find for most players, this level of plausibility is sufficient. I have gamed with players who require a little more detail and depth, and when I have such a player in my group, I will happily work them (even draw on their expertise) because it helps me flesh out stuff and it occasionally leads to books or resources I didn't know about. But those players have been in the extreme minority at my table. In fact, most of my players probably wouldn't mind, or would even welcome less historical realism in my games because I can occasionally go overboard here. A the end of the day though, the GM needs to have some basic information about things in the setting and I find there is a balance between how much time you invest in researching that and how much time you spend prepping other aspects of the campaign.

Quote from: Opaopajr;897432We all bookkeep in our own way, but to illustrate an old example I'll repost. It does several things, quick improvisational summary of NPC, goals for long term volition, jobs & routines for easy PC access, relationships for social web volition, and news rumors and quests to feed PCs if they're stuck and bored (secrets are easter egg rewards for deeper interaction):

Interestingly, in last weekend's session, I used this character as the gunsmith the players were sent to when they decided they wanted to have silver bullets made with a cross on them. She managed to sell one player a new custom made pistol and the rich noble a matched set of fancy decorated, custom made pistols. She also got a fancy dinner and flirtation from the rich noble.

So thanks!

My definition of a sandbox is one in which the players can change the setting (or) the mechanics of the game.

What is the OP's definition?:or others

Brian Jamison does a great job of explaining sandboxing. http://gamemastering.info/

Quote from: Bren;897887Interestingly, in last weekend's session, I used this character as the gunsmith the players were sent to when they decided they wanted to have silver bullets made with a cross on them. She managed to sell one player a new custom made pistol and the rich noble a matched set of fancy decorated, custom made pistols. She also got a fancy dinner and flirtation from the rich noble.

So thanks!

She lives! That's really cool to hear. Hopefully she ends up a memorable character to the players by the end of the campaign. It's also fun looking back at NPC index cards from where they started to where they ended up.
:)

(I'm also curious if you made something interesting between Guillarme, the silversmith, and her as they were asking for silver bullets with a cross on them. Their relationship was double minus bad, which could have been caused by anything. Having a sour working relationship between the silversmith and the gunsmith during the custom silver bullets order almost writes itself. As long as the customer doesn't end up hurt -- or worse, with poor product -- the anger could manifest in real fun ways.

Or perhaps you inserted other NPCs and this is irrelevant? :cool:)

Quote from: J.L. Duncan;897891My definition of a sandbox is one in which the players can change the setting (or) the mechanics of the game.

What is the OP's definition?:or others

Certainly not a change of mechanics - I'm not even sure what that would look like.

As for my definition, I mean one in which the players fully drive the pace and direction of events in the game; the GM's role is to provide and administer the setting and to provide interesting things to "look at," as it were, but it's up to the players only to really decide what actually gets "touched."

By contrast, my current supers campaign involves specific plot points that I introduce, and then I often use a sort of binary "if/then" to introduce other plot points based on players' reactions, ultimately in service towards a story that will eventually have a climax and conclusion.

I see sandboxing as more active than reactive and, as my 10-year old son aptly described it, a "fantasy life simulator."

Quote from: Opaopajr;897911(I'm also curious if you made something interesting between Guillarme, the silversmith, and her as they were asking for silver bullets with a cross on them. Their relationship was double minus bad, which could have been caused by anything. Having a sour working relationship between the silversmith and the gunsmith during the custom silver bullets order almost writes itself. As long as the customer doesn't end up hurt -- or worse, with poor product -- the anger could manifest in real fun ways.

Other than using the relationship's existence as a way of justifying her as a previous source of silver bullets, I didn't do anything with that.

The players had previously received some silver bullets to kill a loup garou. They were given the bullets by the Captain-Lieutenant of Cardinal Richelieu's Guard who got the bullets (indirectly) from Richelieu. Recently, the players wanted some more silver bullets, this time with crosses cast on them. (Silver having a much higher melting point than lead, then can't just cast silver bullets the way they do lead ones.) When they asked the Captain-Lieutenant, I had to figure out where the bullet's came from...ergo Carlotta. So the Captain-Lieutenant sent them to Duriel & Duriel Gunsmith. Having a sense of humor, he didn't bother to tell them that the gunsmith is a woman.

Now that you've reminded me of the double negative I have to think old Guillarme didn't properly get paid. For some reason. I'll have to consider if and how that manifests.

Quote from: drkrash;897915As for my definition, I mean one in which the players fully drive the pace and direction of events in the game; the GM's role is to provide and administer the setting and to provide interesting things to "look at," as it were, but it's up to the players only to really decide what actually gets "touched."

Works for me. Whenever I GM anything, the players can change the setting. Often I run what I would call a mission-based game. Examples include Call of Cthulhu where there is a specific mystery to investigate; Star Trek where Star Fleet command sends the ship on a mission or the crew is reacting to things they encounter while exploring; and Star Wars where the plucky Rebels are assigned something by their higher command. In a sandbox game the interest of the PCs/players directly and actively drives action and they are never or seldom handed a mission that they can't refuse. My Honor+Intrigue game is a combination of both sandbox and mission based. The players actually seem to prefer getting missions.

QuoteI see sandboxing as more active than reactive and, as my 10-year old son aptly described it, a "fantasy life simulator."

Exactly.

Quote from: J.L. Duncan;897891My definition of a sandbox is one in which the players can change the setting (or) the mechanics of the game.

What is the OP's definition?:or others

A campaign where the player's choices dominates how events unfold. The referee sets the stage by creating the setting at particular moment of time. The campaign starts and players starts doing whatever they think is best in pursuit of their goals. The goal will be anything that is possible within the setting. The referee job in managing the campaign is to develop the most interesting consequences of the players choices.

With that being said many gamers view a sandbox is a campaign focused on the random exploration of a setting. Start out at in a hex with a blank map around you. The reason for this is that the term "Sandbox campaign." arose as part of the marketing of the Wilderlands of High Fantasy boxed set. I was part of that although I did not come up with the term. However I did all I could to popularize the term. It developed as a way of explaining what the $70 Wilderlands boxed set was good for. Sandbox campaign was chosen because in computer gaming certain games were known as a sandboxes because the player could do anything that the game allowed in the setting of the game. Most of us involved in the project ran sandbox campaigns.

However we oversold the exploration part of the idea and been fighting the misconception ever since. Plus we forgotten to explain some important things that many of did to have a successful sandbox campaign. For example we didn't really drop the PCs in the middle of a blank map and told them "go forth and explore." Most of us, as well as me, would setup an initial context for the PCs so they had the needed information on which to make their initial choices.

Players change the mechanics of a game? Sounds more like chaos than sandbox.

The great fucking thing about running a sandbox (or open world, or whatever's the term de joure) is, that as a GM, I get surprised by what is going on almost as much as the players. I also love the simulative aspect. In a true sandbox, a dumb decision can have a huge negative impact on the environment. This makes players care. Which is awesome, because, as soon as they are running their own in-game schedule, they will inevitably start referencing places and NPCs by name, which makes them care even more. It's the ultimate giving-a-shit mill.

Quote from: J.L. Duncan;897891My definition of a sandbox is one in which the players can change the setting (or) the mechanics of the game.

I'm much more of a mind with Estar on this one than with yours.  My definition of "sandbox" has always been that the players -- not my prep notes -- decide how they react to situations.

As a player militantly devoted to sandboxing myself, there's no surer (or swifter) way to turn me off your campaign for keeps than for me to get the impression that my choices don't matter, that the only solution is the one you decided yesterday we have to follow.

Quote from: estar;897958Sandbox campaign was chosen because in computer gaming certain games were known as a sandboxes because the player could do anything that the game allowed in the setting of the game.

Oh, so that's where it came from. I found the RPG term confusing the first time I heard it, because I associated sandbox with the software meaning (essentially, a restricted environment for testing and experimentation with no ability to affect anything real or important) and had never heard of sandbox games; after I understood the RPG meaning from context, I guessed that it derived somehow from "sand table" as in early wargaming and military training.

Quote from: rawma;898013Oh, so that's where it came from. I found the RPG term confusing the first time I heard it, because I associated sandbox with the software meaning (essentially, a restricted environment for testing and experimentation with no ability to affect anything real or important) and had never heard of sandbox games; after I understood the RPG meaning from context, I guessed that it derived somehow from "sand table" as in early wargaming and military training.

The roleplaying term originated from video games which uses the term to designate a game that has a open world setting (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_video_game_terms#Sandbox_game), which turn loosely adapts the idea of a child's sandbox where you can do anything with the sand and toy within the boundaries of the physical box. It had nothing to do with the old miniature wargame sand tables. Although it is understandable that people get confused as the sand tables were used because they allowed gamers to shape it into a variety of terrain.

Some great resources here. Let me add few as well.

Firstly, very inspiring read about not over-doing sandbox preparation:
 - http://drivethrurpg.com/product/108572/The-Lazy-Dungeon-Master

Kevin Crawford is one author that emphasize sandbox style of play in his games, for fantasy I recommend this:
 - http://drivethrurpg.com/product/89888/Red-Tide-Campaign-Sourcebook-and-Sandbox-Toolkit

"Beyond the Wall and Other Adventures" is designed to be zero prep sandbox game. It's of course no zero prep, but is built on very helpful fast prep scenario tables:
 - http://drivethrurpg.com/product/113405/Beyond-the-Wall-and-Other-Adventures
And also there is sandbox campaign supplement
 - http://drivethrurpg.com/product/145675/Beyond-the-Wall--Further-Afield


All these resources can be used as system neutral with your favorite game.

And for very last I recommend this article that I like to re-read from time to time to get into the right mindset when thinking about sandbox games:
 - http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/4147/roleplaying-games/dont-prep-plots

Quote from: estar;898055The roleplaying term originated from video games which uses the term to designate a game that has a open world setting (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_video_game_terms#Sandbox_game), which turn loosely adapts the idea of a child's sandbox where you can do anything with the sand and toy within the boundaries of the physical box. It had nothing to do with the old miniature wargame sand tables. Although it is understandable that people get confused as the sand tables were used because they allowed gamers to shape it into a variety of terrain.

I got the meaning, but it seems still to carry a mixed message not only for the non-video-game software meaning but also because a child's sandbox is intrinsically safe and constrained (if freer than a lot of other children's activities), with sides and a limited depth and no real surprises¹, compared to building sand castles on a beach by the sea.

1. barring cats in the neighborhood, that is.

I have a new question (which estar's bible doesn't articulate clearly enough for me):

In placing adventure sites - basically, dungeons, but also monster lairs in general - how do I determine "level" or (God forbid) "balance"?

For example, the "starter dungeon" I picked is placed less than a day from the starting town and is your standard 1st level dungeon.  I have a bigger B2-style site placed about a day or two away.

But where would a "megadungeon" go? Within easy reach of the start, since it presumably also has "starter" encounters - and the players just need to figure out their limits? Or should it be further away, to be discovered later, knowing that the first levels might be too easy for the characters by that point?

Similarly, if there are adventures I'd like to use that might be for 4-5th level, or 7-8th level, should they be placed at the start further away so they are not "accidentally" encountered too early? Or is *everything* placed more according to internal world logic alone?

Does my question make sense? Thanks in advance.  Your responses have been super helpful so far.

Where you place it doesn't matter very much. More important is whether the PCs/players can figure out a rough order of magnitude of the risk in going to that place.

In OD&D danger roughly scaled to dungeon level. I will probably get the exact numbers wrong, but the exact numbers don't matter as much as the principle or idea. So lets say you have a megadungeon with 6 levels numbered in descending depth, 1-6.

• Dungeon Level 1 has monsters that are levels 0-3.
• Dungeon Level 2 will have monsters that are levels 1-4.
• Dungeon Level 3 has monsters that are levels 2-5.
• Dungeon Level 4 has monsters that are levels 3-6.
• Dungeon Level 5 has monsters that are levels 4-7.
• Dungeon Level 6 has monsters that are levels 5-8.

For dungeon level N, you could roll 1D10 for monster level: 1-2=Level (N-1); 3-7=Level N; 8-9=Level (N+1); 10=Level (N+2).

Travel distance and difficulty from civilization might be another method of determining danger. Civilization can't exist with too many deadly monsters running about, so the further away from civilization and the more difficult the travel is, the more dangerous the location can be.

If you don't have some strong conceit like dungeon level then you really need a good method of generating fairly accurate rumors or other information that lets the PCs/players know that the Goblin Caves (just outside town) < Dungeon of Death (2 days from town with a difficult descent into a deep pit) < Kandar's Tomb (a week's travel across the desert of burning sands) < something else....

Quote from: drkrash;899337I have a new question (which estar's bible doesn't articulate clearly enough for me):

In placing adventure sites - basically, dungeons, but also monster lairs in general - how do I determine "level" or (God forbid) "balance"?

For example, the "starter dungeon" I picked is placed less than a day from the starting town and is your standard 1st level dungeon.  I have a bigger B2-style site placed about a day or two away.

But where would a "megadungeon" go? Within easy reach of the start, since it presumably also has "starter" encounters - and the players just need to figure out their limits? Or should it be further away, to be discovered later, knowing that the first levels might be too easy for the characters by that point?

Similarly, if there are adventures I'd like to use that might be for 4-5th level, or 7-8th level, should they be placed at the start further away so they are not "accidentally" encountered too early? Or is *everything* placed more according to internal world logic alone?

Does my question make sense? Thanks in advance.  Your responses have been super helpful so far.

I recommend placing the megadungeon close to the starter town, and have it be known to the players right away. The function of the megadungeon is to act as a campaign tentpole - it's somewhere the PCs can always go to, and be sure of adventure. It helps ensure your game never need risk stalling from lack of obvious things to do.

Higher level adventure sites can be placed further from starter town, in more dangerous zones - eg the inland mountains, where starter zone is the coastal hills. If placed close to starter town they should be known as high level/dangerous places that even adventurers avoid, and not immediately threaten town. Eg I placed an evil Archmage's tower 8 miles from my starter town, but the Archmage had no interest in harming the town - until the PCs riled him up...

If you haven't read Ben Robbins' West Marches posts on Ars Ludi, do that.

Quote from: Ravenswing;898001As a player militantly devoted to sandboxing myself, there's no surer (or swifter) way to turn me off your campaign for keeps than for me to get the impression that my choices don't matter, that the only solution is the one you decided yesterday we have to follow.

IME it seems like a lot of Players expect that though. Even when the GM states the game is wide open and runs it that way, Players will try to glean what the GM 'wants us to do' and follow that path. Not seeing a 'hook' as merely a suggestion but more as an assigned mission... as if going in any other direction would see them falling off the edge of the world.
Offer them several hooks at once and they'll still try to figure out which the one is the 'right' path.

Quote from: Simlasa;899483Offer them several hooks at once and they'll still try to figure out which the one is the 'right' path.

Then let them. No violation of pure sandboxing there. A hook is a hook, not an adventure module. Very soon it will diverge into its own thing.

Of course, Simlasa.  There'll always be players who want to be told what to do, rather than make up their own minds, and naturally there are the players who figure they're being helpful and cooperative in seeking to go with what the GM had in mind.  It's certainly not a value judgment -- we all like the style of gaming we like.

Quote from: J.L. Duncan;897891My definition of a sandbox is one in which the players can change the setting (or) the mechanics of the game.

What is the OP's definition?:or others

An RPG sandbox exists when the players can either choose or define what the next scenario is going to be.

Things I expect to see in a good sandbox campaign:

- A plethora of scenario hooks (http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/37530/roleplaying-games/thought-of-the-day-juggling-scenario-hooks-in-a-sandbox)
- A strong default action (http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/36605/roleplaying-games/thinking-about-urbancrawls-part-11-the-investigation-action) that can be selected by the players if they have no better idea of what to do
- A game world designed as a set of tools (http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/4147/roleplaying-games/dont-prep-plots) that the GM can pick up and play with in response to player actions

Taking a hexcrawl sandbox for example, the players should be able to say things like:

- "I want to follow-up on those rumors about werewolves being spotted by the Old Mill."
- "I don't really have anything on my To Do List. Let's head northwest and see if there's anything interesting up by the mountains."
- "I want to go back and negotiate a trade treaty with that goblin village we saved from slavers last week."