Just putting my long-winded thoughts down here, and wondering if anyone has reached the same conclusion?
Last month my Burning Empires game finally died, as, once again, folks didn't show up (2 of 4 players did, and we played Fluxx and Dogs in the Vineyard, so we had fun and a great mass of beer). After that day I declared the game dead and said I'm refusing to do heavily "certain players being there" dependent games anymore (like BE so much is).
With that done, we discussed what should be the new campaign, and I suggested GURPS and fantasy. Everyone was hurrah for the fantasy (I've a homebrewed world which people like) but not so much on GURPS. Thing is, I mentioned C&C to them but don't actually want to use it, as I'm not big on it's leveling, and also, it's a bit inflexible for what I have in mind. Still, GURPS is okay and does the job, though character creation can be...difficult for new people.
Plugged along at making my world building in GURPS. Then last night, while the wife was out shopping, it hits me. Savage Worlds. Why not? One guy runs it as GM, and another guy loves the system. The others don't know it but will. So, I've settled on Savage Worlds for the new campaign (and yes, it's a story-arced campaign of 8-12 sessions as I plan it now, since we only play once a month).
In my head, Savage Worlds is working out as a "compromise"; in this case, it gives the flexibility I want for characters and some detailing of things I like, but without the complexity of GURPS for character creation or what I call "modifier hunting" (that is, stacking of modifiers thanks to the multitude of Talents, Perks, Advantages and the synergies between them). SW also has "levels" of a sort, which also works well.
Just starting working on it, but I have a feeling SW's going to give me better results for what I want. Or at least easier results with less headaches.
So, is that an apt idea? SW as a sort of sweet middle compared to GURPS and say, C&C? Or what? Where does it fit?
Yeah kinda but much less than you imagine. Really the only thing that SW has in common with GURPS is the grid stuff which can be excised easily. I think the game is up your alley because it has narrative aspects you seem to prefer from reading your previous posts.:)
While they might both be generic, Gurps and Savage Worlds are philosophically very different. Gurps was always about simulation. The level of detail is really just a by product of a desire to accurate model reality - its genre equivalent.
Savage World is not simulation based. It designed is entirely focused on game play and sticking to its mantra of fast, fun and furious. I think Savage World works very well as a reduced complexity compromise game for D20 players, where there are more obvious similarities, than for Gurps players.
I am not saying that one is better than the other, I am just saying difference between the systems goes deeper than just level of complexity.
If you are looking for game with same aim of Gurps but simpler Chaosium's Basic Roleplaying system might be a closer match.
Quote from: Marleycat;557433Yeah kinda but much less than you imagine. Really the only thing that SW has in common with GURPS is the grid stuff which can be excised easily. I think the game is up your alley because it has narrative aspects you seem to prefer from reading your previous posts.:)
Yeah, you've got it. Though my thoughts on narrativism vis-a-vis actual mechanics for it is changing, thanks to my experiences with FATE and Burning Whatever. SW's bennies are as close as I want to get to that sort of thing. Maybe I'm getting traditionalist in my old age?
Quote from: Soylent Green;557440If you are looking for game with same aim of Gurps but simpler Chaosium's Basic Roleplaying system might be a closer match.
But then I'd have to BUY it, see? And that ain't happening even a little soon, with vacation coming up. Gotta save the pennies so I can drink it all away in Italy! ;)
Quote from: Soylent Green;557440While they might both be generic, Gurps and Savage Worlds are philosophically very different. Gurps was always about simulation. The level of detail is really just a by product of a desire to accurate model reality - its genre equivalent.
Savage World is not simulation based. It designed is entirely focused on game play and sticking to its mantra of fast, fun and furious. I think Savage World works very well as a reduced complexity compromise game for D20 players, where there are more obvious similarities, than for Gurps players.
I am not saying that one is better than the other, I am just saying difference between the systems goes deeper than just level of complexity.
If you are looking for game with same aim of Gurps but simpler Chaosium's Basic Roleplaying system might be a closer match.
SG's nailed it, I think. SW does have very one clear design goal: fast-paced combat that emulates over-the-top fiction in detriment of any attempt at "realism" or "grittiness", and which supports (but does not require) miniatures. Philosophical differences aside, though, it's definitely rules-light next to GURPS.
Also, where GURPS is mostly consistent and predictable, SW is full of gimmicky rules. These go a long way towards fighting the blandness common to generic systems, but might not be to everyone's taste.
OK some thoughts...
SW and Fantasy: For fantasy games I think SW is a bit weak in terms of generating random monsters, treasures and whatnot - I'm running a Dark Sun game with SW, and I typically end up using D&D (various edition) materials to generate magical items or random psionic powers or whatnot, then converting statistics as appropriate. While that's perhaps not optimal I do find that the system is very easy to work with - not hard to make up monsters and NPCs and things more or less on the fly if needed, and even making up full races and so on isn't too bad. Definitely low prep & easy.
(on a bit of a tangent, this also works for me since I'm shocking lazy as regards GM preparation, and don't particularly try to poke PCs in any particular direction most of the time. I'm curious as to how SW would work for someone with a more structured, prepared game style since sooner or later, even with bennies/GM bennies, I suspect some sort of ridiculous dice roll would lead to the party heading in an unexpected direction... )
SW 'realism': In general I think SW is actually more akin to HERO than GURPS, since its an 'effect-based' system where you pick a power (or a skill or Edge), and add explanations or trappings to reskin that to what you want. Realism wise, SW isn't completely unrealistic so much as that it trusts the GM to build something that works for them. I'm struggling to think of a fantasy example but for instance GURPS probably has X pages of rules detailing how pain penalties are different for cyborgs, while in SW the GM might just decide that your cyborg opponent has Nerves of Steel. Or GURPS probably has separate disadvantages for someone with a vow to give away worldly goods and someone who is just poor, while both would just have Poverty in SW? (forgive my lack of GURPS-fu here, just trying to articulate this thought as best I can).
Quote from: StanTheMan;557441Yeah, you've got it. Though my thoughts on narrativism vis-a-vis actual mechanics for it is changing, thanks to my experiences with FATE and Burning Whatever. SW's bennies are as close as I want to get to that sort of thing. Maybe I'm getting traditionalist in my old age?
My experience playing Trail of Cthulhu taught me that some narrativist mechanics might sound well in theory (and not always!), but in practice they run against what I want in an RPG.
I wouldn't consider SW bennies a narrativistic mechanic, in my opinion it's a form of emulation, but that's a discussion for another thread.
Quote from: StanTheMan;557429So, is that an apt idea? SW as a sort of sweet middle compared to GURPS and say, C&C? Or what? Where does it fit?
You haven't said anything negative about Savage Worlds. Frankly, I wouldn't think much about it, you like it, two persons in your group like it, it allows some flexibility in chargen and still it's simpler than GURPS. It sounds good to me.
I think whilst they are both generic they are totally different in the style of generic.
So SW is great for stuff you find in comics. I did a Strontium Dog Mod and its a perfect fit. So want a fantasy game that plays like a Conan or Magic comic ... SW will work, Want to run Star Wars, SW again.
Gurps is great for stuff you find in novels and in serious movies. Want to play some Iain M Banks culture SciFi or some Larry Niven. Want to run a fantasy game that feels more like Game of Thrones, Gurps can do that. So modern day military stuff, Hard Fi, and of course historicals and psuedo historicals.
So you could use Gurps to run a Billy the Kid cowboy game and you could use SW to run a Police procedural but .....
Quote from: jibbajibba;557477I think whilst they are both generic they are totally different in the style of generic.
So SW is great for stuff you find in comics. I did a Strontium Dog Mod and its a perfect fit. So want a fantasy game that plays like a Conan or Magic comic ... SW will work, Want to run Star Wars, SW again.
Gurps is great for stuff you find in novels and in serious movies. Want to play some Iain M Banks culture SciFi or some Larry Niven. Want to run a fantasy game that feels more like Game of Thrones, Gurps can do that. So modern day military stuff, Hard Fi, and of course historicals and psuedo historicals.
Spot on, jibba. I'd use BRP instead of GURPS but the sentiment is the same; one for grit, the other for over-the-top heroics.
Quote from: Claudius;557466You haven't said anything negative about Savage Worlds. Frankly, I wouldn't think much about it, you like it, two persons in your group like it, it allows some flexibility in chargen and still it's simpler than GURPS. It sounds good to me.
I think this is probably the key right here. You and part of your group have experience with it and like it pretty well...that should be incentive enough, IMO. That said, you're not wrong...it does allow for a good bit of flexibility with a lot less legwork.
Quote from: StanTheMan;557441Yeah, you've got it. Though my thoughts on narrativism vis-a-vis actual mechanics for it is changing, thanks to my experiences with FATE and Burning Whatever. SW's bennies are as close as I want to get to that sort of thing. Maybe I'm getting traditionalist in my old age?
If you stay away from the GNS nonsense about system mattering and "coherency", I think it's pretty clear that what good stuff can be found in Forge Narrativism theory boils down to setting design, situation design, and character design approaches that can be boiled down to some pretty simple advice that can be used with any traditional game rather than something that requires an entirely different type of rule system meant to work in a setting that's highly specialized. So I guess that you've figured out that whatever it is that you get out of Narrative play, you don't really need special rules to get it.
Quote from: John Morrow;557503So I guess that you've figured out that whatever it is that you get out of Narrative play, you don't really need special rules to get it.
That's a way to look at it, for sure. Or at least, many times, I got this feeling that the mechanics in the systems that I was using was getting in the way of the stuff I DID like; so you're right, in that sense. I didn't need the other sets of mechanics to get what I liked out of the game.
@everyone - thanks for the thoughts and all. Still trying to decide which system to use. I've got weeks on that matter, and one guy in the group just wrote that he actually prefers GURPS (we played it maybe 4 years ago for a cyberpunk game). So, just to muddy the waters a little!
I should say that I, personally, am more familiar with GURPS, though I HAVE run SW before, as I said, so it isn't like I don't know it. Le sigh.
But back on topic - I was just thinking recently that the thing I really liked form a lot of the narrativist games was this idea of the players being active in what goes on in terms of description at the table, and as mentioned above, this is one of those things that aren't specific to a rule system, but just to how you, the GM, set the pace of letting or encouraging people to do certain things. Doesn't even need "incentive" beyond "because it's fun that way."
Also let's quiet guy not engage in it if he doesn't want to, which can't be bad. Why force a guy to play a certain way?
You know jack about Savage Worlds if you call it a narrativist game.
I just hope your SW players point out each and every fucking mistake and error you make while running the game so you would take your Forgey hands off of the game. IT IS NOT YOUR STORYBITCH, DUDE!
Quote from: StanTheMan;557580That's a way to look at it, for sure. Or at least, many times, I got this feeling that the mechanics in the systems that I was using was getting in the way of the stuff I DID like; so you're right, in that sense. I didn't need the other sets of mechanics to get what I liked out of the game.
That the "Narrativist" games get in the way of stuff you do like is, I think, a side-effect of many Forge-inspired games being designed to cater only to a single style of play at the expense of all others.
Quote from: StanTheMan;557580Also let's quiet guy not engage in it if he doesn't want to, which can't be bad. Why force a guy to play a certain way?
That's one of the things that really turned me off of the Burning Empires book. There is an example of play where a player creates a fairly simple character concept and the GM tells them that it's not good enough in (what seemed to me, anyway) a fairly condescending way. Not all players are the same and different people put different things into the game and get different things out of it. And that's a big part of why narrowly focused games are a problem.
This is the usual problem with talking about games, in that people try and use badly defined meaningless GNS terms that no-one every fucking agrees on what they mean rather than talk about the actual game system.
If you don't like Bennies*, just say 'I don't like bennies' and it will save a lot of confusion.
*or any other rules thing.
Quote from: jadrax;557595This is the usual problem with talking about games, in that people try and use badly defined meaningless GNS terms that no-one every fucking agrees on what they mean rather than talk about the actual game system.
If you don't like Bennies*, just say 'I don't like bennies' and it will save a lot of confusion.
*or any other rules thing.
True. That's why I said narrative "elements" not narrative game. For example I love things like stunts/fate points/action points et al. But that really isn't what I consider what makes a narrative game. Just some elements that give players a chance to redeem bad dice rolls or take a risk because it's cool.
Quote from: Phantom Black;557585You know jack about Savage Worlds if you call it a narrativist game.
Then it's a good thing that nobody in this thread, to my knowledge, is calling it a "Narrativist" game.
Quote from: Phantom Black;557585I just hope your SW players point out each and every fucking mistake and error you make while running the game so you would take your Forgey hands off of the game. IT IS NOT YOUR STORYBITCH, DUDE!
From the Savage Worlds Deluxe Explorer's Edition:
QuoteScripted.Adventures
Scripted adventures are more like interactive stories. The players can make choices along the way, but the overall plot advances more or less intact regardless of what they do. Epic tales must sometimes follow this path—it's hard to tell a story if you don't know what chapters are to come.
When running a scripted adventure, try not to make your scenarios feel scripted. The group should never feel like they're just observers, going along for the ride no matter what they do. Instead, use the situation, overwhelming opponents, or "down times" to give the group the illusion they control the story more than they really do. In Evernight, for example, there's a point where the heroes can do whatever they want for a time. Eventually, however, they are captured by the villains of the tale, and begin the next episode of the story.
Looks like the Savage Worlds authors acknowledge that the game can, in fact, be the GM's "storybitch", if that's what the GM wants.
For a movie comparison...
Savage Worlds - Total Recall, Commando
Not Savage Worlds - Predator
SW - Silverado, Young Guns
Not SW - Unforgiven, Appaloosa, Open Range
SW - Stripes
Not SW - Full Metal Jacket
SW - Scorpion King, Conan the Destroyer
Not SW - Conan the Barbarian
SW - Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow
Not SW - The Crow
SW - Indiana Jones Movies, The Mummy Movies
Not SW - The Ninth Gate, The Exorcist
SW - Transformers, Battleship, Independence Day
Not SW - Minority Report, Blade Runner, Alien
Quote from: CRKrueger;557616For a movie comparison...
Savage Worlds - Total Recall, Commando
Not Savage Worlds - Predator
SW - Silverado, Young Guns
Not SW - Unforgiven, Appaloosa, Open Range
SW - Stripes
Not SW - Full Metal Jacket
SW - Scorpion King, Conan the Destroyer
Not SW - Conan the Barbarian
SW - Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow
Not SW - The Crow
SW - Indiana Jones Movies, The Mummy Movies
Not SW - The Ninth Gate, The Exorcist
SW - Transformers, Battleship, Independence Day
Not SW - Minority Report, Blade Runner, Alien
That's a pretty good way of putting it too.
Quote from: StanTheMan;557442But then I'd have to BUY it, see? And that ain't happening even a little soon, with vacation coming up. Gotta save the pennies so I can drink it all away in Italy! ;)
I'm not well versed in the Runequest family of games, but my understanding is that it's a fantasy version of BRP and there are a few free or low cost versions of it such as Legend and Openquest.
I am sure there people on this forum who can correct me or provide more details. But based on your initial requirement of "like Gurps fantasy but less complex" this might be a match.
Quote from: StanTheMan;557442But then I'd have to BUY it, see? And that ain't happening even a little soon, with vacation coming up. Gotta save the pennies so I can drink it all away in Italy! ;)
Now I'm a big fan of BRP, and you can get a lot of BRP fantasy goodness for free, or for very little money.
The Legend RPG (formerly Mongoose Runequest II) is going for a dollar over at DriveThruRPG. Here. (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/97239/Legend) If you're considering BRP it's worth a look at least.
OpenQuest, a "Runequest lite" of sorts, has a text-only version available for free download at the d101 Games web site: OpenQuest Developer's Kit (http://d101games.co.uk/?file_id=9).
The Renaissance Engine is an OpenQuest hack which powers the new edition of the excellent Clockwork & Chivalry RPG. Free download over at DTRPG (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/97426/Renaissance---D100-black-powder-SRD) and also worth checking out.
Enjoy Italy and have a spritz on me when you're in Venice. :D
Quote from: The Butcher;557851Now I'm a big fan of BRP, and you can get a lot of BRP fantasy goodness for free, or for very little money.
The Legend RPG (formerly Mongoose Runequest II) is going for a dollar over at DriveThruRPG. Here. (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/97239/Legend) If you're considering BRP it's worth a look at least.
OpenQuest, a "Runequest lite" of sorts, has a text-only version available for free download at the d101 Games web site: OpenQuest Developer's Kit (http://d101games.co.uk/?file_id=9).
The Renaissance Engine is an OpenQuest hack which powers the new edition of the excellent Clockwork & Chivalry RPG. Free download over at DTRPG (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/97426/Renaissance---D100-black-powder-SRD) and also worth checking out.
Enjoy Italy and have a spritz on me when you're in Venice. :D
Thanks for that! Might have to take a look at BRP then (once money is scrounged).
Funnily enough, we'll be at Bibione, which is only an hour from Venice as a matter of fact. We did that two years ago, and we're planning it again (drive from Bibione, park at Tronchotto, waterbus to Venice).
Or...how did you know I'd be near it...? :eek:
Quote from: StanTheMan;557888Thanks for that! Might have to take a look at BRP then (once money is scrounged).
Funnily enough, we'll be at Bibione, which is only an hour from Venice as a matter of fact. We did that two years ago, and we're planning it again (drive from Bibione, park at Tronchotto, waterbus to Venice).
Or...how did you know I'd be near it...? :eek:
Because Venice is awesome, and if you hadn't been there, I'd urge you to go. :D I know, it's crowded and expensive and all that, but it's a unique experience. I spent two days at Venice upon arriving in Italy and loved it. Sitting in a café by the Canal Grande with Mrs. The Butcher, sipping a spritz (I prefer mine with Campari, but I'm a horrible, godless tourist) and enjoying the warm October sunset... ah, the memories... :)
Back on track. Do check out these BRP offerings and let me know what you think. I played a hell of a lot of GURPS back in the day (love the grittiness, but dislike the unwieldly character generation), and I've ran a hell of a lot of SW in the last couple of years (love the agility of the rules system, dislike the low lethality).
Nowadays you might say BRP is my "compromise" system? I'm not too fond of "generic systems" but I think the genius of BRP is that it's very, very easy to mod into what you want. Simplify combat, factor in Sanity rules, and suddenly you have Call of Cthulhu, possibly the best loved and most played horror RPG in the world. Add complex combat options such as hit locations, a more baroque magic system with interesting metaphysics, and voilà! Runequest, the classic fantasy game that came second only to D&D during the hobby's heyday. A different set of combat options and a distinct magic system gave us Stormbringer, the original heavy metal fantasy RPG. And so on, and so forth.