First of all, I believe this is within the ambit of the board guidelines as it concerns an issue within the RPG industry; if I am wrong, please correct me.
First heard about this on ENWorld (hey, it's not RPG.net):
https://www.enworld.org/threads/sandy-petersens-recent-statements-on-colonialism-transgender-athletes-and-homeschooling.681626/
So: there's been some discussion lately about fighting back against SJWs and the like. If this does blow up (or perhaps even if it doesn't), perhaps a small purchase from Petersen Games would be in order? (Assuming you have the money, of course.) If there is more of a sense that 'conservative gamers spend money too', perhaps the hobby would be less SJW-ish?
Please let me know what you think!
(For the uninitiated, Petersen was one of the people behind the original Call of Cthulhu game in the 80s, did a number of levels for the original Doom and Quake, and has done a bunch of other Cthulhu-related RPG and boardgame stuff over the years. He has a very nice Cthulhu Mythos for 5e book and one for Pathfinder if you are really looking to splurge.)
The Atlantic article is terrible. "You play videogames and you are a Nazi!"-terrible. Just apply the pushback to that video here and move on.
I'm amazed that they didn't also throw "Europa Universalis" (the original boardgame, but the videogame, too) under the bus (my Portuguese colonial slave-trading in EU IV is going just fine, thank you for asking). In an article, BTW, which explicitly says that there are alternative to "colonialist" games - and so people can choose.
Next: You play "Twilight Struggle" and all of sudden you are a Communist! (or you plan a coup in Chile against Allende as the US - since you can do that too).
Wasnt Peterson even just recently pushing woke agenda down players throats?
Quote from: Reckall on July 25, 2021, 09:15:18 PM
The Atlantic article is terrible. "You play videogames and you are a Nazi!"-terrible. Just apply the pushback to that video here and move on.
I'm amazed that they didn't also throw "Europa Universalis" (the original boardgame, but the videogame, too) under the bus (my Portuguese colonial slave-trading in EU IV is going just fine, thank you for asking). In an article, BTW, which explicitly says that there are alternative to "colonialist" games - and so people can choose.
Next: You play "Twilight Struggle" and all of sudden you are a Communist! (or you plan a coup in Chile against Allende as the US - since you can do that too).
Odds are someones declared each of those over on BGG, and worse. Remember thats the place where they got cancelled a board game about colonizing Africa because it "promotes genocide".
I'd like to see a board game that explores the ~2 million Europeans captured and sold into slavery by Barbary Pirates & Ottoman Empire during the 16th - 18th century.
Or maybe a board game that explores the impact of Mongol invasions killing by some estimates 100 million people as they conquered and killed & enslaved land masses from Asia to Europe & the Middle East.
What about a board game that covers the Bantu expansion that led to conquering sub-Saharan Africa and subjugating other native African peoples like the Khoisan and the Pygmies?
Quote from: Zelen on July 25, 2021, 09:30:03 PM
I'd like to see a board game that explores the ~2 million Europeans captured and sold into slavery by Barbary Pirates & Ottoman Empire during the 16th - 18th century.
Or maybe a board game that explores the impact of Mongol invasions killing by some estimates 100 million people as they conquered and killed & enslaved land masses from Asia to Europe & the Middle East.
What about a board game that covers the Bantu expansion that led to conquering sub-Saharan Africa and subjugating other native African peoples like the Khoisan and the Pygmies?
Well, you can do that too in Europa Universalis IV (and Crusader Kings II) - just choose different starting nations ;D
Quote from: Zelen on July 25, 2021, 09:30:03 PM
I'd like to see a board game that explores the ~2 million Europeans captured and sold into slavery by Barbary Pirates & Ottoman Empire during the 16th - 18th century.
I was thinking about my first exposure to the Barbary Pirates, and I realized it was
Robinson Crusoe. The eponymous protagonist is captured by the Salle Rovers and enslaved for 2 years, escapes, buys a plantation in the Americas, and then is famously shipwrecked on a voyage to procure slaves from Africa.
In other words, the first novel in the English language depicts the universality of slavery, and presents a more complex and nuanced perspective than is seen in many modern discussions. The whole period makes a great setting for games of all kinds.
It hit RPGNet too--and they didn't lock it. (But then, they also didn't get any of the pushback Morrus did.)
https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/cw-racism-transphobia-sandy-petersens-statements-on-colonialism-trans-people-in-sports-and-german-homeschooling.884605/ (https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/cw-racism-transphobia-sandy-petersens-statements-on-colonialism-trans-people-in-sports-and-german-homeschooling.884605/)
I picked up the PDF of Cthulhu Mythos for 5E when it was on sale a couple weeks back (I don't like 5E, but it seemed an easier extraction for things like C&C than the Pathfinder version), and like what I've seen of it. I'd back or buy a C&C/S&W/OSR or Savage Worlds version. If you actually like 5E or Pathfinder as systems, I think it's worth the money.
Anyone know anything about their 8-Bit Attack card game? That one looks right up my alley.
EDIT: Oh, FYI, Petersen Games is also running their Christmas in July sale right now on their own website, which has everything but a handful of items for 40% off. Print or PDF options available for the RPG stuff.
Quote from: Omega on July 25, 2021, 09:16:21 PM
Wasnt Peterson even just recently pushing woke agenda down players throats?
I don't know what you're thinking of, but I've been following Sandy Petersen on Twitter for a few years, and I can guarantee he's not by any means 'woke.' :D
Chaosium may be a different story ...
https://twitter.com/Chaosium_Inc/status/1419322192194510848 (https://twitter.com/Chaosium_Inc/status/1419322192194510848)
Good on Sandy Petersen for recognising that people play games to have fun.
Thats a real shocker!
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 25, 2021, 10:04:10 PM
Quote from: Omega on July 25, 2021, 09:16:21 PM
Wasnt Peterson even just recently pushing woke agenda down players throats?
I don't know what you're thinking of, but I've been following Sandy Petersen on Twitter for a few years, and I can guarantee he's not by any means 'woke.' :D
Chaosium may be a different story ...
https://twitter.com/Chaosium_Inc/status/1419322192194510848 (https://twitter.com/Chaosium_Inc/status/1419322192194510848)
Ok so he is no longer a part of Chaosium? And was not a part of their woke agenda? Thats good to hear.
At worst board games where you engage in historical colonialism are insensitive to the real atrocities committed against indigenous peoples that have lingering consequences even today, but playing it doesn't make players complicit.
Would the media prefer a revenge fantasy like the Haitian Revolution where tons of white people really were killed or raped as vengeance for the centuries of slavery, death, and rape perpetuated against black Haitians? That's hardly an improvement.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 25, 2021, 09:58:07 PM
It hit RPGNet too--and they didn't lock it. (But then, they also didn't get any of the pushback Morrus did.)
https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/cw-racism-transphobia-sandy-petersens-statements-on-colonialism-trans-people-in-sports-and-german-homeschooling.884605/ (https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/cw-racism-transphobia-sandy-petersens-statements-on-colonialism-trans-people-in-sports-and-german-homeschooling.884605/)
Notice how they try to put together three different statements by someone on three different topics so to already implicitly condemn the first ::)
Third comment in...
QuoteWhat company or product is this person associated with?
And the fourth comment in...
QuoteAt a certain point people will start walking away from this hobby just for the fact that its heroes keep turning out to be monsters.
These are the words of a monster:
Quote@SandyofCthulhu
·
Jul 23
can I just play my damn games without some cheerless nanny trying to stop me? Literally no one is being "colonized" when I play Age of Colonization.
Quote@SandyofCthulhu
·
Jul 23
A person with the XY genome's muscle mass regardless of declared gender OBVIOUSLY has an edge over the XX genome in most competitive sports. Instead of classifying sport participation by pronoun, why not by genome?
I just want my granddaughters to be able to compete in track & field against people who don't have a genetic edge. Is that wrong?
This is our Brave New World.
Quote from: Melichor on July 26, 2021, 08:48:05 AM
Third comment in...
QuoteWhat company or product is this person associated with?
And the fourth comment in...
QuoteAt a certain point people will start walking away from this hobby just for the fact that its heroes keep turning out to be monsters.
These are the words of a monster:
Quote@SandyofCthulhu
·
Jul 23
can I just play my damn games without some cheerless nanny trying to stop me? Literally no one is being "colonized" when I play Age of Colonization.
Quote@SandyofCthulhu
·
Jul 23
A person with the XY genome's muscle mass regardless of declared gender OBVIOUSLY has an edge over the XX genome in most competitive sports. Instead of classifying sport participation by pronoun, why not by genome?
I just want my granddaughters to be able to compete in track & field against people who don't have a genetic edge. Is that wrong?
This is our Brave New World.
Fact is: there is a lot of sane and articulate pushback against the idea that "Colonialism in games is problematic" (and notice the recurring use of the key word: "Problematic" - i.e. "I will neither define the problem not articulate it. I refuse from the very start to engage in facts and clear definitions.")
This pushback is present both in the thread on BGG and in the answers to Petersen's tweet. Nothing new here: it is the same pushback that "You play videogames and you are a Nazi!" got. Not to mention wargames: if you play Advanced Squad Leader as the Germans and you exult because your flamethrower squad just got a good result, what does this make of you? (Answer: someone who is pushing around cardboard chits on a cardboard map while rolling some dice.)
But "The Atlantic" doesn't present these opposing opinions, not even by synthesizing them. They pick an obscure YT channel where a guy makes a vague excuse about having suggested "Puerto Rico" as a good game, but the wide dismantling of the whole "Games promoting Colonialism are problematic!" idea is ignored. Once again, a "progressive" idea is pushed out and supported only by ignoring or hiding facts about the matter.
Which brings to the obvious question: if you believe that your idea is right, why do you fear opposite opinions? Just present the facts and let people decide for themselves. Strangely, this never happens with this kind of "progressive" ideas. ::)
1) The idea that Puerto Rico is cheerleading for colonialism is asinine. The game is a basic historical economic sim.
2) The idea that colonialism is automatically evil is asinine. It's a complex historical situation with a wide variety of outcomes for a wide variety of people. You can certainly point at specific cases where evil was done, but you can't use those to condemn other, better situations at different time, with different actors, on the other side of the world. It's a child's argument. Really, it's not even an argument, just propaganda.
3) Good for Sandy Peterson. I agree with him on these points, and I fondly remember the one time I heard him give a talk at I-Con on Long Island back in 1993. I got to hear him tell the "gazebo" story in person. Good times!
Everybody likes to bash colonialism, but they get awfully quiet when you bring up the British, India, and the practice of 'suti'.
Lurkndog has it right: the issues are never cut and dried.
Well, I posted my reply on BGG where I tried to articulate why I disagree with the original post. Bye bye BGG :-X
I guess that I'll end up being "canceled". I was never canceled before. I wonder how it will be...
Where does it really logically end?
We can wage pretend war but not have colonies in game?
For fuck's sake! I was raping China when I played axis and allies?! That's right! Logically if A then B. A theme about anything can be related to other bad things and that means 'c' you approve of it, promote it or are callous and have problematic ideas.
So if you pretend x in game, no matter from how far removed, it means you are glorifying real world happenings.
Sure, makes sense. Everything is problematic. Should have known.
Meanwhile some of these same crusaders go and take in a movie that includes problematic things. But that's ok. As soon as you move meeples, chits and roll dice it all becomes too real.
Check and check.
Boy, that was fast! ??? My post was removed as "dismissive", but a mod assured me in private that "I'm not a bad person and I'm not getting a warning".
I wasn't even able to save it :-\
Anyway, interesting: true, my post was about why this problem, IMHO, doesn't exists, so, true, it was "dismissive"...
...Which means that you cannot dismiss the problem. I know forms of cancer that are less pernicious.
Quote from: Reckall on July 26, 2021, 01:48:54 PM
Boy, that was fast! ??? My post was removed as "dismissive", but a mod assured me in private that "I'm not a bad person and I'm not getting a warning".
I wasn't even able to save it :-\
Anyway, interesting: true, my post was about why this problem, IMHO, doesn't exists, so, true, it was "dismissive"...
...Which means that you cannot dismiss the problem. I know forms of cancer that are less pernicious.
Dude. At least TBP will rub your face in it and make their bias public. That is so spineless.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 26, 2021, 01:59:57 PM
Quote from: Reckall on July 26, 2021, 01:48:54 PM
Boy, that was fast! ??? My post was removed as "dismissive", but a mod assured me in private that "I'm not a bad person and I'm not getting a warning".
I wasn't even able to save it :-\
Anyway, interesting: true, my post was about why this problem, IMHO, doesn't exists, so, true, it was "dismissive"...
...Which means that you cannot dismiss the problem. I know forms of cancer that are less pernicious.
Dude. At least TBP will rub your face in it and make their bias public. That is so spineless.
You know what is scary? As a human being, many a time a friend came to me with a problem. When this happens, one thing is to respect that your friend has a problem, but it can also be of help to point out that the problem is not as big as your friend friend thinks that it is. Or that there are different - and less worrying - ways to look at the thing. Or maybe even that there is no problem at all and it was all a misunderstanding.
No two problems are equal. Flatly banning any opinion that, maybe, it is all a storm in a teacup is simply dangerous.
Go Sandy!
FWIW, I would play a boardgame of inter-tribal warfare of NW Native American tribes. You got territories, slave capture and possibly even cannibalism - and whale hunting!
Game companies already know about globalization. Apparently "Winkie" doesn't.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 26, 2021, 10:03:10 AM
Everybody likes to bash colonialism, but they get awfully quiet when you bring up the British, India, and the practice of 'suti'.
Lurkndog has it right: the issues are never cut and dried.
The
sati was controversial and provincial (not widely practiced) in India even before the British colonized it. There are no circumstances in history where colonialism had a net positive or mostly positive effect on the people who were colonized. Even under the best circumstances, colonialism was overwhelmingly horrible for every indigenous culture that suffered it and those cultures still suffer the consequences today.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 26, 2021, 05:47:13 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 26, 2021, 10:03:10 AM
Everybody likes to bash colonialism, but they get awfully quiet when you bring up the British, India, and the practice of 'suti'.
Lurkndog has it right: the issues are never cut and dried.
The sati was controversial and provincial (not widely practiced) in India even before the British colonized it. There are no circumstances in history where colonialism had a net positive or mostly positive effect on the people who were colonized. Even under the best circumstances, colonialism was overwhelmingly horrible for every indigenous culture that suffered it and those cultures still suffer the consequences today.
Without British Imperialism, the nation of India wouldn't even exist.
Also, neither would Uruguay, which would just be part of Argentina. And believe me, it's pretty obvious that 3 million Uruguayans would be much much worse off if Uruguay was just a province of Argentina.
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 26, 2021, 07:59:21 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 26, 2021, 05:47:13 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 26, 2021, 10:03:10 AM
Everybody likes to bash colonialism, but they get awfully quiet when you bring up the British, India, and the practice of 'suti'.
Lurkndog has it right: the issues are never cut and dried.
The sati was controversial and provincial (not widely practiced) in India even before the British colonized it. There are no circumstances in history where colonialism had a net positive or mostly positive effect on the people who were colonized. Even under the best circumstances, colonialism was overwhelmingly horrible for every indigenous culture that suffered it and those cultures still suffer the consequences today.
Without British Imperialism, the nation of India wouldn't even exist.
Also, neither would Uruguay, which would just be part of Argentina. And believe me, it's pretty obvious that 3 million Uruguayans would be much much worse off if Uruguay was just a province of Argentina.
Please remind me, what nation just finished paying off the debt it acquired to stop slavery?
Does anyone think the Zulu empire was achieved by peaceful means?
EVERYBODY conquered and enslaved. Whites were just better at it for a time.
If I was black and could prove my tribe had been conquered by Shaka Zulu could I demand an apology from Zulu-descended, even reparations?
Quote from: Reckall on July 26, 2021, 01:48:54 PM
Boy, that was fast! ??? My post was removed as "dismissive", but a mod assured me in private that "I'm not a bad person and I'm not getting a warning".
I wasn't even able to save it :-\
Anyway, interesting: true, my post was about why this problem, IMHO, doesn't exists, so, true, it was "dismissive"...
...Which means that you cannot dismiss the problem. I know forms of cancer that are less pernicious.
I love the fact that a post saying the 'problem doesn't exist'..... doesn't exist!
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 26, 2021, 05:47:13 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 26, 2021, 10:03:10 AM
Everybody likes to bash colonialism, but they get awfully quiet when you bring up the British, India, and the practice of 'suti'.
Lurkndog has it right: the issues are never cut and dried.
There are no circumstances in history where colonialism had a net positive or mostly positive effect on the people who were colonized. Even under the best circumstances, colonialism was overwhelmingly horrible for every indigenous culture that suffered it and those cultures still suffer the consequences today.
Not only is this false, it is stupidly false. One word will prove its falsity. Rome.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 26, 2021, 05:47:13 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 26, 2021, 10:03:10 AM
Everybody likes to bash colonialism, but they get awfully quiet when you bring up the British, India, and the practice of 'suti'.
Lurkndog has it right: the issues are never cut and dried.
The sati was controversial and provincial (not widely practiced) in India even before the British colonized it. There are no circumstances in history where colonialism had a net positive or mostly positive effect on the people who were colonized. Even under the best circumstances, colonialism was overwhelmingly horrible for every indigenous culture that suffered it and those cultures still suffer the consequences today.
I'm sure this would be a great comfort to a widow burned to death that at least she wasn't being colonialized by dirty British.
Tell us more about your hatred of women.
..The fact some random mod believes they have the right to label somebody ''good' or ''bad'' based on their expressed political beliefs is very, very childish. Its a black and white choice. One would think an adult would try to actually understand what motivated the beliefs in the first place. Guess not.
For fucks sakes, people, quit posting there. Quit reading there. Ignore that place.
RPG.net has, for time immemorial, been a cavalcade of asswipes. Too many of the voices there are the keyboard equivalent of the bean burrito special, and that is their sole purpose in life. Let places like that suffocate in their own filth.
Play your games. Take what you want off your shelf, get together with like-minded friends, and have fun. It's that simple.
Quote from: Reckall on July 26, 2021, 01:48:54 PM
Boy, that was fast! ??? My post was removed as "dismissive", but a mod assured me in private that "I'm not a bad person and I'm not getting a warning".
I wasn't even able to save it :-\
Anyway, interesting: true, my post was about why this problem, IMHO, doesn't exists, so, true, it was "dismissive"...
...Which means that you cannot dismiss the problem. I know forms of cancer that are less pernicious.
On BGG? I am rather surprised. Usually they just let the nuts shout down any dissenters rather than actually go after the 'problematic' posters.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 26, 2021, 01:59:57 PM
Dude. At least TBP will rub your face in it and make their bias public. That is so spineless.
BGG is all about covert control rather than overt. They are what The Other Place would have been with more competent subversives running it.
A game is dissaproved of? They will just quietly blind the game to searches and hotness. Or they will keep it in "WIP" limbo under some cocked up excuse. etc ad BGGium. Rarely does the curtain get pulled back enough to see the ugly gears turning.
Quote from: GriswaldTerrastone on July 26, 2021, 08:38:52 PM
Does anyone think the Zulu empire was achieved by peaceful means?
EVERYBODY conquered and enslaved. Whites were just better at it for a time.
If I was black and could prove my tribe had been conquered by Shaka Zulu could I demand an apology from Zulu-descended, even reparations?
Hilariously most whites were bad at slavery and relied on natives wanting to get rid of people for their supply. If Africa and such werent so good at slavery the whole problem would have likely gone differently. But nope. Its all the white mans fault.
But to the SJWs its never going get pointed out because they feed on convincing people they are the victim and pitting them against someone else. Every iterations done this in some format large or small.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 27, 2021, 08:04:16 AM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 26, 2021, 05:47:13 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 26, 2021, 10:03:10 AM
Everybody likes to bash colonialism, but they get awfully quiet when you bring up the British, India, and the practice of 'suti'.
Lurkndog has it right: the issues are never cut and dried.
The sati was controversial and provincial (not widely practiced) in India even before the British colonized it. There are no circumstances in history where colonialism had a net positive or mostly positive effect on the people who were colonized. Even under the best circumstances, colonialism was overwhelmingly horrible for every indigenous culture that suffered it and those cultures still suffer the consequences today.
I'm sure this would be a great comfort to a widow burned to death that at least she wasn't being colonialized by dirty British.
Tell us more about your hatred of women.
My Indian professor in college years before the woke takeover told me that it was controversial in India before the British invaded. She did not have positive opinions of colonization.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 27, 2021, 12:50:55 PM
My Indian professor in college years before the woke takeover told me that it was controversial in India before the British invaded.
Exactly. You know where it was
not controversial? Britain.
Regarding the OP, it's great to see a member of the old guard speaking out in an effective manner.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 27, 2021, 12:50:55 PM
My Indian professor in college years before the woke takeover told me that it was controversial in India before the British invaded. She did not have positive opinions of colonization.
Controversial, as opposed to 'this is a terrible thing and should be ended forthwith'.
Lulz.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 27, 2021, 01:36:37 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 27, 2021, 12:50:55 PM
My Indian professor in college years before the woke takeover told me that it was controversial in India before the British invaded. She did not have positive opinions of colonization.
Controversial, as opposed to 'this is a terrible thing and should be ended forthwith'.
Lulz.
Many Indian people thought it was horrible before the British invaded. These Indians interfered with the practice in afflicted areas. It was never universally practiced or enforced. India was never a monolithic bloc. India wasn't even a single state before the British forcibly redrew the maps, and that hasn't exactly worked out well.
I would appreciate if you don't deliberately engage in bad faith, please.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 27, 2021, 02:14:14 PMIndia wasn't even a single state before the British forcibly redrew the maps, and that hasn't exactly worked out well.
People have such a baby gloves view of the past. Every part of the world has been subject to subjegation, cleansing, and conquest. The nations that have benefitted just have largely forgotten that they where ever colonized or influenced by such things.
What the Brits/Europe did was not something that didn't happen to them or did not happen to the places they colonized before they arrived by other forces.
I really hate this kid gloves view of history. Move the fuck along people.
Quote from: Omega on July 27, 2021, 10:22:45 AM
Quote from: Reckall on July 26, 2021, 01:48:54 PM
Boy, that was fast! ??? My post was removed as "dismissive", but a mod assured me in private that "I'm not a bad person and I'm not getting a warning".
I wasn't even able to save it :-\
Anyway, interesting: true, my post was about why this problem, IMHO, doesn't exists, so, true, it was "dismissive"...
...Which means that you cannot dismiss the problem. I know forms of cancer that are less pernicious.
On BGG? I am rather surprised. Usually they just let the nuts shout down any dissenters rather than actually go after the 'problematic' posters.
My post was rather long, but basically I pointed out two things:
- That if you apply the word "problematic" to BBG's game database you have to cancel almost everything. "Twilight Struggle" has you launching CIA-sponsored coups in Chile and supporting red revolts in Vietnam. You must literally do these kind of things if you want to win. And one could write a paper on the "problematic Europa Universalis".
- OR you can understand the concept of "escapism" in entertainment, and understand that people know very well what is true and what is imaginary. "Puerto Rico" is based on a romantic vision of colonial times that never was (nor "Twilight Struggle is a 1:1 re-enactment of the Cold War). If it disturbs you there are alternatives. Maybe you are stimulated to do research, learn more about the World, and good for you. But, by now, "Puerto Rico" has done its job. Why to change it into something that it never was meant to be? Isn't it better to design a new, fresh game that tackles topics you feel important in a realistic way? "This War of Mine" is a good example that it can be done.
I also pointed out how the inability to distinguish between escapism and the real world leads to things like the Satanic Panic that surrounded D&D; when people went against kids that knew very well how their spellcasting and demonic summons were imaginary things happening in an imaginary World. Kids that, in some instances, had their young lives ruined (some were separated from their friends and even sent to military school) only because they played a game that
other people judged "problematic"; because these other people couldn't understand how D&D was not a realistic portrayal of satanic rituals but escapism.
As I said, my post was much longer and contained more examples - including literature ("One Thousand and One Nights" is not a portrayal of the realities of the ancient Arab world. Should we judge it "problematic"?) - but that was the gist.
What happened was that I posted my message, I checked a mail and then I thought "Hmm... Better to save it" - and, poof!, it had already disappeared! Five minutes!
Considering how long it was, my only hypothesis is that the Mod read the first line...
"After reading this thread I think it is only fair to offer an opposite view."
...Judged it "dismissive" and cancelled it. There is no way that someone could have read it, much less reflect on what I wrote.
Call me naive. I expected to be debated, attacked, banned, cancelled (in the bad way). Fine. But
after someone had read my opinion. Instead it would seem that "Offering an opposite view" is enough to activate the auto-deletion bot.
This is worse than being counter-opinionated . This is composing an opinion only to see the other side covering their ears and chanting "La la la!" There is no way out. For them, I mean.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 27, 2021, 02:14:14 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 27, 2021, 01:36:37 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 27, 2021, 12:50:55 PM
My Indian professor in college years before the woke takeover told me that it was controversial in India before the British invaded. She did not have positive opinions of colonization.
Controversial, as opposed to 'this is a terrible thing and should be ended forthwith'.
Lulz.
Many Indian people thought it was horrible before the British invaded. These Indians interfered with the practice in afflicted areas. It was never universally practiced or enforced. India was never a monolithic bloc. India wasn't even a single state before the British forcibly redrew the maps, and that hasn't exactly worked out well.
I would appreciate if you don't deliberately engage in bad faith, please.
Your words, not mine. Don't blame me for your habit of eating the crayons between postings.
There's a difference between 'controversial' and 'actively attempting to end this'. Try selling that line regarding slavery sometime. Make sure you do it from range, though; people get awfully ornery.
Greetings!
Well, there are many Indians that have positive views on the British in India. The British Empire certainly performed evil deeds and policies, in India and elsewhere. However, it is important to remember that Britain imposed, awakened, and inspired many good things.
India become united entirely under the British Empire.
India gained RAILROADS--en masse, all over the country.
India gained inspiration for Democracy. Today, India is the word's largest Democracy.
India became more lawful, refined, and disciplined. India always had an appreciation for scholarship, wisdom, law codes, and many other great aspects of civilization. The rule of the British Empire, however, brought an even greater emphasis for law and order, law codes, and discipline in everything. These effects and influences can be seen in everything in India today, from their courts, to law schools, jurisprudence, how secular schools are organized and administered, and more. The forms and philosophy of the British throughout Indian consciousness in regards to such is foundational and huge.
And many more things. Many Indians take a far more nuanced view of these things. India is a VAST country, and has been invaded, conquered, and mixed with foreign conquerors and blood for thousands of years. The Saka and their conquering nomadic armies, The Aryans, The Persian Empire, Alexander the Great and the Greeks, The White Huns, The Kushans of the Kushan Empire, the Mongols, the Turks, the Mughals of Central Asia, and finally, the British Empire.
India has endured for 5,000 years and more. Their civilization, much like China, can trace distinct origin points back to virtually the Neolithic period. After the Flood, when people were still hunting and gathering, learning basic agriculture, and even learning to speak. The British did both some good and some bad things--just like every other invading, conquering power has in India over thousands of years of history.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Reckall, the last few months I posted on BGG, if the post was more involved than a few sentences, I wrote them offline and then pasted them into the post. It was already getting to the point where I didn't trust that the site. Realizing that I didn't trust was one of the things that caused me to wonder why I was putting in all that trouble and finally leave. (Answer, there was a handful of people there for whom I really wanted to see what they had to say.)
I was more worried that they would edit my posts without my consent instead of deleting, but I think it a good idea to have an independent record of anything you post on such a site.
I wrote my epic Dragon Quest review entirely offline and posted it in sections so that I wouldn't be beholden to BGG for that content.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 27, 2021, 12:50:55 PM
My Indian professor in college years before the woke takeover told me that it was controversial in India before the British invaded. She did not have positive opinions of colonization.
The colonisation was so bad in India that she had to move to America and get a job in University to escape from it.
Quote from: Omega on July 27, 2021, 10:37:35 AM
Hilariously most whites were bad at slavery and relied on natives wanting to get rid of people for their supply. If Africa and such werent so good at slavery the whole problem would have likely gone differently. But nope. Its all the white mans fault.
Does second sourcing the hard part of going out to find slaves make you "bad" at slavery?
People, serious warning here: keep it to the specifics of Sandy Petersen and colonialism in RPGs.
Everyone who has posted off-topic cut it out, or you could face consequences.
In this climate it seems like it's difficult not to put emotion into our communication. Nothing wrong with passion and feeling in communication. (Facts before feelings) But the problem is that we tend to post when we're angry/frustrated/hostile. I hate social media. While it can have it's benefits it allows anyone to be an expert and their feelings matter. It's a sad state of our society in my opinion. And anyone, not just SP, should have realized that the cancel train was pulling from the station on this.
For those sick of this sort of thing, what is the appropriate response? If any, should it be against the poster of the original message or the venue?
This list of references to various tweets suggests the intent - showing SP as a transphobic, racist, colonist nazi. The choice of tweets reminds me of a checklist. Some have argued that it isn't an article on ENWORLD, but Morrus knows that its there and has turned off comments on the post. ENWORLD clearly benefits from its spread across the net. Or is just down to the original poster?